Guild Wars 2

KrisHQ.4719:

You cannot compare GW2 to LoL, as LoL has specific roles for each of their heroes.
Gw2 is build with the philosophy that there should be no trinity.
This means that every class should be able to rely on itself, and no classes should be better at 1v1’s. With the current meta there are classes that are too powerful in 1v1’s, and others that are too weak. Balancing the 1v1 issue, will in the longer run balance the teamplay.

Honestly I do not see how 1v1 balance would make the game more static. To me it would become much more dynamic. The way it is now, you’ll just have a bunker ele/guard/engi standing on one point for an entire match. It’s almost impossible to take down a bunker alone, and if you try, you will waste your time.

Having the game balanced around 1v1’s would require more movement and team coordination, as points would be much more vulnerable in general.
The most interesting gameplays are often the ones where each individual are equally matched, leaving only skill as the variable.
That is what made CS 1.6 such a huge e-sport. Each player were equal which meant that the only variables were individual skill and team skill/coordination and strategies. People could still be good at spraying while others were good at strategies or using the AWM (simply put). The point is that the gameplay did not become static or pale, as each team could use different strategies that were all viable. This was the case because of the 1v1 balance that CS naturally had.

The gameplay in CS did not provide any roles, but the teams filled them out based on what the individual players were good at, and that is where gw2 needs to go.
Right now players cannot choose the “role” they are best at, because the gameplay requires specific builds to be competitive.

I hope this is not too difficult to understand!
I believe this discussion lives because people disagree about the direction pvp should take, and not whether the game should be balanced around 1v1 or team synergy (both things can work, but do so in very different ways). In my opinion the best direction for gw2 would be 1v1 balancing, since i feel the gameplay/combat mechanics would benefit from that the most. But if you look at gw2 with a LoL perspective, you might want gw2 to head in another direction.

All that said, i believe gw2 needs another gameplay-mode for it to be competitive. We dont need 20 different game-modes, and imo we dont need death-match (even though it would be kinda fun). We need a game-mode which primary objective is not revolving around holding points OR grabbing flags, because specific builds will naturally be better at such tasks.
We need a very neutral objective, that for instance could be “Red Team needs to defend a Lord, Blue team has to kill it.” And of course the teams would have to switch sides.
This is very basic and would work with a lot of secondary objectives, that could make the game even more interesting. An example of such could be objectives that did not grant points over time, but gave some kind of buff that the teams could go for if needed.

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TLDR; Gw2 should be balanced around 1v1’s, as the mechanics would benefit from that the most. And we need a new game-mode that does not require specific builds. (“Neutral” primary objective).

regardless of that philosophy all builds fall into certain roles. You will never extinguish that

All I gotta say is S/P theif cant do jack kitten in 1v1. But if its 2v2 and my teammate is heavy hitter type than we good. I use the stealth teammates and heal, trap with immobalizing them and move fast signet. My goal is to keep stealthing so they have to retarget us.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

regardless of that philosophy all builds fall into certain roles. You will never extinguish that

That is correct, but the roles should be never be extreme.
There should be variations of builds, but we dont need people that spec full defensive or full offensive, those types of builds should not be viable imo. That gameplay is already out there in every MMO already released.
If you read my post thoroughly you would notice how i said there should be roles that teams fill out, because they are either good at them or want to. NOT because the game necessarily requires those roles.
So yes there would be roaming builds, defensive builds and supporting builds, but not in the extreme sense that we see now.
Balancing the game based on 5v5 situations would result in very specific cookie-cutter builds and roles, which is what we are currently seeing.
I believe however that this is due to the strength of bunkers, more than the strength of dps. And if we toned down the viability of bunker builds, the gameplay would be much more action-packed.

The balance is actually quite good. The problem with not having standard builds like in other mmorpgs, means that people always blame the builds/class and not the player.
In CS 1.6 one guy could take out a whole team in 2 seconds by spraying. “LOL NERF SPAWN! SK.SWE IS kittenING OP, COLT NEEDS NERF”
This never happened, and of course it never happened. This example is completely kitten since the only variable in CS was skill and team coordination.
A lot of people think that thieves needs a nerf, but in reality I win most the times against a thief. I do agree that i’d like the class to take another direction besides stealth, it is kittening frustrating and not fun for anyone. But the class is not really OP, in sPvP that is.

It seems like people want gw2 to actually reintroduce the holy trinity. Im aware that the current meta still needs tweaking to be fun. But if you really want that role-based gameplay, gw2 is just not for you.
Balancing for me is all about eliminating variables other than individual skills and team-skills, and that is done with 1v1 balance.

KrisHQ.4719:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

regardless of that philosophy all builds fall into certain roles. You will never extinguish that

That is correct, but the roles should be never be extreme.
There should be variations of builds, but we dont need people that spec full defensive or full offensive, those types of builds should not be viable imo. That gameplay is already out there in every MMO already released.
If you read my post thoroughly you would notice how i said there should be roles that teams fill out, because they are either good at them or want to. NOT because the game necessarily requires those roles.
So yes there would be roaming builds, defensive builds and supporting builds, but not in the extreme sense that we see now.
Balancing the game based on 5v5 situations would result in very specific cookie-cutter builds and roles, which is what we are currently seeing.
I believe however that this is due to the strength of bunkers, more than the strength of dps. And if we toned down the viability of bunker builds, the gameplay would be much more action-packed.

The balance is actually quite good. The problem with not having standard builds like in other mmorpgs, means that people always blame the builds/class and not the player.
In CS 1.6 one guy could take out a whole team in 2 seconds by spraying. “LOL NERF SPAWN! SK.SWE IS kittenING OP, COLT NEEDS NERF”
This never happened, and of course it never happened. This example is completely kitten since the only variable in CS was skill and team coordination.
A lot of people think that thieves needs a nerf, but in reality I win most the times against a thief. I do agree that i’d like the class to take another direction besides stealth, it is kittening frustrating and not fun for anyone. But the class is not really OP, in sPvP that is.

It seems like people want gw2 to actually reintroduce the holy trinity. Im aware that the current meta still needs tweaking to be fun. But if you really want that role-based gameplay, gw2 is just not for you.
Balancing for me is all about eliminating variables other than individual skills and team-skills, and that is done with 1v1 balance.

No… people just want the actual builds and traits to be balanced. The vast majority of traits are absolutely useless or at the very least sub-par to all the standard builds. This has nothing to do with the players. The balance is not quite good and that is why we’ve had the same broken meta for nearly 7 months with the same op traits/professions/builds and the same team setups.

Additionally the best roles in the game are glass cannon and bunker… the 2 things you said shouldn’t exist and they currently RULE the meta. They are extreme builds. There are no extreme support builds, they dont exist. Support is rather weak in this game BECAUSE of the lack of definition. Everyone has their own innate support, therefore a dedicated supporter is a detriment to the group because it largely overlaps with everyone else. This is the reason why 99.9% of players go full in damage or full in bunker or at least very lopsided and imbalanced (in the sense between dmg and tankiness) builds. This game using conquest does require bunkers and the way to kill bunkers is with glass cannons since conditions are SO easily removed. It’s just a huge design flaw.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

No… people just want the actual builds and traits to be balanced. The vast majority of traits are absolutely useless or at the very least sub-par to all the standard builds. This has nothing to do with the players. The balance is not quite good and that is why we’ve had the same broken meta for nearly 7 months with the same op traits/professions/builds and the same team setups.

Additionally the best roles in the game are glass cannon and bunker… the 2 things you said shouldn’t exist and they currently RULE the meta. They are extreme builds. There are no extreme support builds, they dont exist.

I agree that there should be more viable builds and weapon-sets, but the meta is not BROKEN because Axe/Axe ranger is kitten (for instance).
The balance is not completely broken, more builds just have to be made more viable so that we see a bigger versatility in the game.
So glass cannon builds rule the meta? If i recall correctly (and i’m pretty sure i do) D/D ele is considered OP due to it being the jack of all trades. Nice dmg, mobility, defense and healing it has got it all. It’s not a bunker nor a glass cannon (though can be specced being a bunker).
Trapt rangers have recently made a come-back as well. GC? Nah I dont think so.
Im sry, but it seems you dont really know what you’re talking about. At least this makes me believe so.

KrisHQ.4719:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

No… people just want the actual builds and traits to be balanced. The vast majority of traits are absolutely useless or at the very least sub-par to all the standard builds. This has nothing to do with the players. The balance is not quite good and that is why we’ve had the same broken meta for nearly 7 months with the same op traits/professions/builds and the same team setups.

Additionally the best roles in the game are glass cannon and bunker… the 2 things you said shouldn’t exist and they currently RULE the meta. They are extreme builds. There are no extreme support builds, they dont exist.

I agree that there should be more viable builds and weapon-sets, but the meta is not BROKEN because Axe/Axe ranger is kitten (for instance).
The balance is not completely broken, more builds just have to be made more viable so that we see a bigger versatility in the game.
So glass cannon builds rule the meta? If i recall correctly (and i’m pretty sure i do) D/D ele is considered OP due to it being the jack of all trades. Nice dmg, mobility, defense and healing it has got it all. It’s not a bunker nor a glass cannon (though can be specced being a bunker).
Trapt rangers have recently made a come-back as well. GC? Nah I dont think so.
Im sry, but it seems you dont really know what you’re talking about. At least this makes me believe so.

I like how you responded to half my post.

I’ll keep this simple. The same builds have been used for 5-7 months now. There has been no change in the meta, which many consider to be extremely lopsided and broken(including pros), since release.

Rump Buffalo.2594:

KrisHQ.4719:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

No… people just want the actual builds and traits to be balanced. The vast majority of traits are absolutely useless or at the very least sub-par to all the standard builds. This has nothing to do with the players. The balance is not quite good and that is why we’ve had the same broken meta for nearly 7 months with the same op traits/professions/builds and the same team setups.

Additionally the best roles in the game are glass cannon and bunker… the 2 things you said shouldn’t exist and they currently RULE the meta. They are extreme builds. There are no extreme support builds, they dont exist.

I agree that there should be more viable builds and weapon-sets, but the meta is not BROKEN because Axe/Axe ranger is kitten (for instance).
The balance is not completely broken, more builds just have to be made more viable so that we see a bigger versatility in the game.
So glass cannon builds rule the meta? If i recall correctly (and i’m pretty sure i do) D/D ele is considered OP due to it being the jack of all trades. Nice dmg, mobility, defense and healing it has got it all. It’s not a bunker nor a glass cannon (though can be specced being a bunker).
Trapt rangers have recently made a come-back as well. GC? Nah I dont think so.
Im sry, but it seems you dont really know what you’re talking about. At least this makes me believe so.

I like how you responded to half my post.

I’ll keep this simple. The same builds have been used for 5-7 months now. There has been no change in the meta, which many consider to be extremely lopsided and broken(including pros), since release.

I don’t think you’d find any high level tPvP who would agree with you that the meta hasn’t changed since release. Most high level tPvP’ers don’t think balance is extremely lopsided either, if anything it’s the opposite. Also lol @ pro, because nobody is a pro since there is no money being made in GW2 at the moment.

I think the meta has evolved quite a bit. Glass cannon specs are used much less in high level tPvP now and there is a clear trend of sustained DPS builds becoming more and more common the past few months (which many top level players predicted would happen).

The only thing I agree with is the lack of varied builds within each class. This is the result of broken/underpowered traits. Not every trait/weapon set/etc has be to balanced, but there has to be enough so that there is enough variance in builds to keep people interested.

Ultimately the game should not be balanced neither around 1v1 nor 5v5, it should be balanced around roles. Some classes will excel at far point assault, some at bunkering, some in team fights, etc. If you balance around roles you cannot go wrong.

Skyro you are correct. I am not high level but higher than most.

Each build has a role. No one does it all. Some professions are more varied.

elementalists= d/d or useless.
necro= is aoe support. mostly condi.
mesmers= time warp portals and chaos storm. rest is personal preference.
rangers= trap or useless.
thief is gank (insta kill) build
engineer is generally grenaders
Guardian is bunker.
warriors are.. well always been hundred blade.

instead of making new skills why not fix broken/useless/wimpy skills so new builds can exist?

JinDaVikk.7291:

Skyro you are correct. I am not high level but higher than most.

Each build has a role. No one does it all. Some professions are more varied.

elementalists= d/d or useless.
necro= is aoe support. mostly condi.
mesmers= time warp portals and chaos storm. rest is personal preference.
rangers= trap or useless.
thief is gank (insta kill) build
engineer is generally grenaders
Guardian is bunker.
warriors are.. well always been hundred blade.

instead of making new skills why not fix broken/useless/wimpy skills so new builds can exist?

That list is kind of small, there’s other viable options. For example, there’s several offensive guardian builds that are successful, and you can bunker as other classes beyond guardian (ele, engi offensive bunkers, and I think in eu there’s a ranger bunker? idk).

There’s also a lack of innovation because people latch onto what other people have success with. I’m not saying it’s easy to innovate, but there are people that have had success in the past and continue to do so.

You are correct about the engi bunker. Unfortunately my only working stability is 120s cd. Then I have no heals during duration.
I have no team stability either (elix s throw is so small and random doesn’t count) so eles with aura share kitten my team.

I have seen offensive guardian builds. With the low hp pool and limited aoe personally not as viable. Necro can do same damage with wells with double the hp pool. But yes other builds exist, just don’t work as well.

JinDaVikk.7291:

You are correct about the engi bunker. Unfortunately my only working stability is 120s cd. Then I have no heals during duration.
I have no team stability either (elix s throw is so small and random doesn’t count) so eles with aura share kitten my team.

I have seen offensive guardian builds. With the low hp pool and limited aoe personally not as viable. Necro can do same damage with wells with double the hp pool. But yes other builds exist, just don’t work as well.

Not all bunkers are supposed to be point defending bunkers. You can make one to attack points, thus an offensive engi bunker.

Also, kaypud’s guardian build is an offensive build that is basically all aoe damage.

And Khalifa runs a necro that’s power based and only 1 well. Then you have the standard power well build.

Basically what I’m saying is there’s lots of different “viable” builds that people have success with, however most people don’t try to innovate because it’s hard. It’s very time consuming. Most people when they’re new (and not that great at the game) decide to innovate, and it doesn’t work out so well. This causes them to stop trying to innovate and copy other people’s builds.

bhagwad.4281:

If you balance for dueling, team balance will take care of itself.

Nope and that’s where your Point falls out of the Sky. I could name thousands of examples why this isn’t true looking at other Team-based games, but I’ll try and find simple examples from GW2 itself:

1) Buffing others: A build or even a whole class could be quite weak in 1v1-Situations, because it is centered around Teamfight-abilities, like Shouts or other Buffs. If you balance those builds with 1v1 in Mind, they could easily get too strong in Teamfights.

2) Conditions: If you balance the amount of Conditions Chars can dish out and/or remove from a 1v1-standpoint, it’s easily possible that Teambuilds with multiple Condition-Chars get totally out of Hand.

3) Healing: A lot of ppl stated (quite some time ago, I don’t play active anymore), that Eles had too good Healing and most ppl didn’t even mention the AoE-Heal for the Teammates. Healing can easily become too Powerful in Teamfights, even if it would be balanced in 1v1’s. Also, by shutting out the Teamplay-Aspect of Healing, you rid yourself of a good way to balance it (more towards Team-Healing and less towards just being unkillable yourself).

4) Chainstunning: There could easily be Teambuilds that can chainstun a Char and if you don’t balance Stuns and AoE-Stability and stuff like that with Teamfights in Mind, you’ll have a big mess on your hands.

5) 1v1 is mostly just a Deathmatch-Scenario and often doesn’t take several Key-Aspects of the Game into consideration, like being able to move quickly around the Map, being able to kill NPC’s or structures etc.

6) Most 1v1 take AoE-DMG completely out of the equasion (it would only be taken into consideration for Chars that have NPC’s)

Balancing GW2 around 1v1 just doesn’t work…. at all….

if classes were balanced 1v1 would they not also be balanced 5v5?

seems so to me.

vespers.1759:

if classes were balanced 1v1 would they not also be balanced 5v5?

seems so to me.

No..1 word AOE (or maybe 3 )
The class with more aoe in healing,damage,boons offers much more in teammfight even if it would lack in 1vs1.
Also there are so many other kinds of synergy like how a class could have a impossible burst to land in 1vs1 which brought it low in the 1vs1 tier but in team fights with cc locking its viable.
If the game was balanced in 1vs1 it would either be unbalanced in team fights or..it would be a very very very boring game.

Lol i should read more of the above posts before i reply to threads :P
Basicaly what PowerBottom says!

kostbabis.8791:

vespers.1759:

if classes were balanced 1v1 would they not also be balanced 5v5?

seems so to me.

No..1 word AOE (or maybe 3 )
The class with more aoe in healing,damage,boons offers much more in teammfight even if it would lack in 1vs1.
Also there are so many other kinds of synergy like how a class could have a impossible burst to land in 1vs1 which brought it low in the 1vs1 tier but in team fights with cc locking its viable.
If the game was balanced in 1vs1 it would either be unbalanced in team fights or..it would be a very very very boring game.

Lol i should read more of the above posts before i reply to threads :P
Basicaly what PowerBottom says!

I think that’s why A-Net struggles that much wich the warrior. 100b and whirlwind are high bursts in teamfights and can be very effective if timed right. If you now start to make the warrior competitive in a 1v1 (obviously it’s the worst class to choose in a 1v1) by adding some more survivability or dmg etc. You will face soon a mabye overpowered class in teamfights.

vespers.1759:

if classes were balanced 1v1 would they not also be balanced 5v5?

seems so to me.

1 Post above yours I courfully explained why this would not be the case……… -.-°

When playing my sin i do 3 times as much than with my warrior.

Some classes give me trouble (trap rangers, condi necros) some classes are just plain boring to fight because of how forgiving they are (shatter mesmers, bunker eles) and so on. But in the end, within the match as a whole no matter which classes i’m thrown against i still do 3x more with my sin than with my warrior.

Simply because, if i have troubles against one class with my sin (and i’m probably the only living soul out there rolling 2xpistols mind you) then it’s a no go for my warrior.
There is currently no rock paper scissor in GW2, there is only can do with some classes or can’t do with some others.

Lower duel efficiency, lower cap rate, more time spent respawning and rejoining the fight.
This is where 1on1 balance takes its meaning.

You can’t achieve perfect balance of course but then again even 5on5 is impossible.
The current pvp dynamics demands that kind of balance, 5on5 + cap + mobility + bunker = lots of duels or 2v2.
If pvp was about hotjoin 8on8 then team balance would probably be a better way to go.

Now that’s said, there is still the multiple class issue which they should at least try to disable for a month or so, see how it goes. Can’t balance a game around anything when you allow 4x Eles + 1sin.
It’s like full necro Grenth’s balance rush all over again.

muscarine.5136:

When playing my sin i do 3 times as much than with my warrior.

Some classes give me trouble (trap rangers, condi necros) some classes are just plain boring to fight because of how forgiving they are (shatter mesmers, bunker eles) and so on. But in the end, within the match as a whole no matter which classes i’m thrown against i still do 3x more with my sin than with my warrior.

Simply because, if i have troubles against one class with my sin (and i’m probably the only living soul out there rolling 2xpistols mind you) then it’s a no go for my warrior.
There is currently no rock paper scissor in GW2, there is only can do with some classes or can’t do with some others.

Lower duel efficiency, lower cap rate, more time spent respawning and rejoining the fight.
This is where 1on1 balance takes its meaning.

You can’t achieve perfect balance of course but then again even 5on5 is impossible.
The current pvp dynamics demands that kind of balance, 5on5 + cap + mobility + bunker = lots of duels or 2v2.
If pvp was about hotjoin 8on8 then team balance would probably be a better way to go.

Now that’s said, there is still the multiple class issue which they should at least try to disable for a month or so, see how it goes. Can’t balance a game around anything when you allow 4x Eles + 1sin.
It’s like full necro Grenth’s balance rush all over again.

Those GW2 Assassins sure are OP…?

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

If you now start to make the warrior competitive in a 1v1 (obviously it’s the worst class to choose in a 1v1) by adding some more survivability or dmg etc. You will face soon a mabye overpowered class in teamfights.

As someone already mentioned, what is currently popular (which imo is very nice) is the sustained dps builds, for instance D/D elementalist. These builds are also very strong at 1v1’s because they are most likely hybrid builds, and have some way of defending themselves against glass cannons.
If you were to balance the warrior with 1v1 in mind, why would it suddenly become overpowered in teamfights? That doesn’t make any sense.
If the warrior needed more survivability, you would naturally decrease the dmg if the class proved too OP in tests. Somewhere there is a sweet spot, which would make the warrior a decent 1v1 class.
In fact, a warrior could possibly already make a decent 1v1 class, just as the guardian can deal heavy burst dmg. But people tend to go for the meta-builds that other people come up with (100b, Endure Pain). Instead of experimenting with other kinds of builds, they just assume the warrior is kitten at all tasks.