Guild Wars 2

We all agree that elite specs are currently superior to core class. When introduced, elite specs were supposed to be an alternative playstyle but not a stronger one. This means elite specs were supposed to add build diversity by allowing your class to play new roles. Instead, the new role has now become the only role, all core builds being simply comparatively unviable. So build diversity went down drastically.

I believe this is a serious problem and the best way to fix it is to:

• identify for each class which role the core specs excel at and which role the elite specs are suppose to add
• identify which elements (traits, weapons or class mechanics) of the elite specs make them too strong

So here is my analysis. I am not fluent with all classes, so I may overlook some things. Please give me your opinion if you agree or disagree with me.

I went for the class in order (light -> heavy armor, low HP-> high HP) which makes me start with elementalist, probably one of the tougher nuts to crack.

This is an interesting topic and i fully agree with your statements and assessments, tho i thing you will attract players who will argue that elite specs should be better than the core ones because they have elite in their description.

Anyway also take in to consideration the option of making the trait line that boosts the class mechanic in to a ‘vanila’ elite spec and balance it to match the HoT ones:

foste.3098:

What if the trait line that enhances your profession mechanic was turned in to a elite specialization (discipline, trickery, soul reaping, beast mastery, illusions, tools, invocation, virtues, arcane). This way they can giving us some build diversity (before another expansion), you ether stick with the vanila elite specs (and therefor the base class name) and 2 other core ones or the HoT elite spec (and change to the different class name) and 2 other core ones.
Of course there would have to be some rebalancing done to make the ‘new’ vanila elite competitive in power to the HoT elite, but we can all agree that the game is in need of balance as is so it woild not be a big deal.

The reason i bring this idea up is because thees specializations are used in almost every build anyway (most warrior builds take discipline, every thief pick trickery, every guardian build pick up virtues, infact only mesmer, engineer and ele do not pick theirs currently) and by making them elite the players would be forced in to a choice, and non HoT players will have access to a competitive build. This is assuming they balance them according to the power level of HoT elite specs, and every future elite spec.

In regards to ranger, yes our garbage pets are a large reason why we are not good (locked in to taking 2 specific pets in every build), but also there are plenty of ranger traits that are plain bad *cough marksmanship minor traits.
Also i made a post about what is wrong with most of the pets and how they could be improved (tho the post got 0 traction, go figure).
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/ranger/further-pet-improvements/first#post6110913

I for one would love to see elite specs be brought into line with core ones, but Arenanet obviously dosent share that sentiment. This game is about making them happy after all right?

i give zero kittens about balancing elite specs. bring up the core specs to the same level first. this should be priority. this was their biggest broken promise, that elites would be on par with score specs. what a disaster.

mistsim.2748:

i give zero kittens about balancing elite specs. bring up the core specs to the same level first. this should be priority.

I believe this is the wrong way to go:

• buffing a core class also buffs the elite spec. As long as the two don’t have clear role separation, they don’t work independently.
• It is easier to bring the elite spec (only one traitline, 1 weapon, 1 skill category and 1 class mechanics) to core level than the core (5 traitlines, many weapons, many skills and 1 class mechanics) to elite level.
• pre-HoT was reasonably well balanced, with all classes almost as viable (ranger a bit weak but still played sometimes, ele a bit strong, the rest fine) and some having decent build diversity (medi-power-guard, medi-burn-guard, bunker guard for example, shoutbow and rampage warrior, etc…). Bringing elite specs in line means that this balance and diversity immediately comes back too.
• power creep has really made the game less fun. PvP has become AOE CC and AOE damage and passive survivability everywhere. No need to target, no need to time your skills, just use everything out of cooldown and it will work more or less fine. Every class evade or blocks for half the time.

So no… nerfing elite specs is by far the best way to go.

(or maybe I misunderstood your message, it was not fully clear to me)

@Silverkey one way to go about druid astral form is to reduce the base healing values of its skills but increase the scaling with healing power. At this moment a full glass berzerker druid can heal almost as much as a mender druid. Make it so that if they want to be better at healing they give up more dmg or some other stat (like ele is forced to slot in cleric amulet if it wants to truly support with healing auras)

OP is spot-on with the problems of HoT specs. They offer too much utility and sustain without compromising damage. They’re too forgiving of mistakes which leads to brain dead skill spam not being nearly as punishable as it should be.

In order to resurrect the fun of PvP in GW2 (let’s face it, it’s pretty much dead), HoT specs need to be nerfed down to core level. If not, brain dead skill spam with build selection completely eclipsing player skill will continue to be the norm.

However, based on the season3 “balance” changes, I don’t think that will ever happen before PvP becomes a wasteland. The Devs are set on buffing everything to ridiculous levels instead of nerfing the few outliers properly (many across-the board nerfs instead of out-right gutting a couple skills).

Well written, on point analysis, and I think you’re right about 99%.

But even if all of this is indeed correct, the dilemma for the balancing team is: kitten off their broader HoT consumers who have gotten used to the damage, sustain and CC levels they are seeing; or kitten off those who think HoT needs nerf in order to balance the game.

Sirendor.1394:

But even if all of this is indeed correct, the dilemma for the balancing team is: kitten off their broader HoT consumers who have gotten used to the damage, sustain and CC levels they are seeing; or kitten off those who think HoT needs nerf in order to balance the game.

Their only choice is the former unless they want to kill the game entirely. If everything power creeps to the level of elite specs, it will trivialize all content, including PvE – more than it already has.

From my document about Herald

Adept

1. Hardening Persistence – Replaced with Dragonic Assistance (New).
Dragonic Assistance – Burn foes when you consume facet. 360 radius aoe burn, 1 stacks for 4 seconds.
2. Swift Gale – Merged with Harmonize Continuity.

Master

1. Shared Empowerment moved to GM and replaced by Enhanced Bulwark.
Enhanced Bulwark – Protection has increased effectiveness by 20%.
2. Crystalline Synergy (New) – Damage is increased based on the amount of active facets. 2% per facet.

GM

Soothing Bastion – Also added +180 toughness for wearing a shield. Cd on crystal hibernation proc increased to 30seconds.

Glint. Stance focused on providing offensive and defensive support via boons. Weakness; Conditions, soft and hard cc.

1. One with Nature (F2 active) – Reduced duration of boons by 30%.
2. Chaotic Release – reduced cd to 35sec.

Shield

1. Envoy of Exuberance – Reduced cast time to 1/2, reduced cd to 12cd, reduced healing to 1k. Increased projectile speed.
2. Crystal Hibernation – Decreased energy cost and cd to 15, reduced healing to 300/pulse. Reduced healing scaling to 0.3.

Imo main issue i have with herald is double stab on dodge. This alone makes you hard to pin down, espesially now with buff to the stab

Silverkey.2078:

mistsim.2748:

i give zero kittens about balancing elite specs. bring up the core specs to the same level first. this should be priority.

I believe this is the wrong way to go:

• buffing a core class also buffs the elite spec. As long as the two don’t have clear role separation, they don’t work independently.
• It is easier to bring the elite spec (only one traitline, 1 weapon, 1 skill category and 1 class mechanics) to core level than the core (5 traitlines, many weapons, many skills and 1 class mechanics) to elite level.
• pre-HoT was reasonably well balanced, with all classes almost as viable (ranger a bit weak but still played sometimes, ele a bit strong, the rest fine) and some having decent build diversity (medi-power-guard, medi-burn-guard, bunker guard for example, shoutbow and rampage warrior, etc…). Bringing elite specs in line means that this balance and diversity immediately comes back too.
• power creep has really made the game less fun. PvP has become AOE CC and AOE damage and passive survivability everywhere. No need to target, no need to time your skills, just use everything out of cooldown and it will work more or less fine. Every class evade or blocks for half the time.

So no… nerfing elite specs is by far the best way to go.

(or maybe I misunderstood your message, it was not fully clear to me)

i dont think buffing core specs necessarily buffs elites. look at your typical elite spec. look at what GM’s it relies on, then simply buff the other ones to make the player have to decide between giving up the synergy of the elite spec’s GM, and picking up a new combo of GM’s.

this isnt a simple task. whoever is developing and testing would have to explore synergy between GM’s, not the individual GM’s, and have a goal in mind as to what the final build should feel like. this requires 1) a superior understanding of their game, and 2) a vision. sadly, the devs simply dont possess these characteristics, so they just keep pumping out new content without iterating on the old. They gamble with buffs/nerfs/ammy removals, without having a vision of the end-product, hoping the mess will somehow work out. there is no foresight in pvp development, which is why the game will always be Build Wars: one or two builds are the best for any given prof, and once you figure them out, theyre locked into the meta due to superiority. this is why i always get excited when a huge patch comes out, try playing the builds i want to play, usually end up unlucky because said builds arent as good as the meta ones, quit the game for 6 months. rinse and repeat.

mistsim.2748:

i dont think buffing core specs necessarily buffs elites. look at your typical elite spec. look at what GM’s it relies on, then simply buff the other ones to make the player have to decide between giving up the synergy of the elite spec’s GM, and picking up a new combo of GM’s.

this isnt a simple task. whoever is developing and testing would have to explore synergy between GM’s, not the individual GM’s, and have a goal in mind as to what the final build should feel like. this requires 1) a superior understanding of their game, and 2) a vision. sadly, the devs simply dont possess these characteristics, so they just keep pumping out new content without iterating on the old. They gamble with buffs/nerfs/ammy removals, without having a vision of the end-product, hoping the mess will somehow work out. there is no foresight in pvp development, which is why the game will always be Build Wars: one or two builds are the best for any given prof, and once you figure them out, theyre locked into the meta due to superiority. this is why i always get excited when a huge patch comes out, try playing the builds i want to play, usually end up unlucky because said builds arent as good as the meta ones, quit the game for 6 months. rinse and repeat.

But why would buffing core specs be a better way to balance than nerfing elite specs? As I said, core specs were reasonably well balanced, and it is a waste to just scrap everything and restart from scratch.

^because over half of the core GM’s in the game are garbage, as well as many weapon sets. all that stuff needs to be brought up. this way u get 2 birds with 1 stone. competition for elites, as well as iteration on old garbage.

mistsim.2748:

^because over half of the core GM’s in the game are garbage, as well as many weapon sets. all that stuff needs to be brought up. this way u get 2 birds with 1 stone. competition for elites, as well as iteration on old garbage.

Okay, but then you have enormous power creep. Everyone has pulsing stability, 3 or 4 “get out of jail free cards”, high mobility and sustain, etc. It’s just not fun.

Still better to nerf elites back to core level and then buff up the core stuff which is a bit too weak.

whatever theyre doing they better do it =) it’s been a long time since game balance wasnt in complete shambles. oh and theyre working on the next xpac and more elite specs already so yeah.

This needs to stop,

Elite specs are OP but they are working on a expansion and they said they were bringing more spec to mess with.

Its over, join the elite specs and try to make a build with the elite spec line and 2 core ones.

Every meta has had its OP builds and this is no different, GW2 added the 3 point line and guess what they are not taking it back so adapt.

kdaddy.5431:

This needs to stop,

Elite specs are OP but they are working on a expansion and they said they were bringing more spec to mess with.

Its over, join the elite specs and try to make a build with the elite spec line and 2 core ones.

Every meta has had its OP builds and this is no different, GW2 added the 3 point line and guess what they are not taking it back so adapt.

This. Elite specs are the future. Once there are more, there will be more build diversity. And, remember, you will only be able to use one. That’s where the decisions will be. Buffing core specs is just pointless power creep.

kdaddy.5431:

This needs to stop,

Elite specs are OP but they are working on a expansion and they said they were bringing more spec to mess with.

Its over, join the elite specs and try to make a build with the elite spec line and 2 core ones.

Every meta has had its OP builds and this is no different, GW2 added the 3 point line and guess what they are not taking it back so adapt.

Well, at the end, the decision is not in my hands anyway. But you can’t blame me for trying. Maybe you are happy with the current PvP status but I am not, and many others are with me.

Will new elite specs add build diversity? Well, those ones were supposed to, and they didn’t, so it does not seem like it is guaranteed. Maybe they will make the new ones more broken that the current ones.

And even if it does. I just do not enjoy the current power creeped meta. I don’t want this to be our base level.

DaShi.1368:

Buffing core specs is just pointless power creep.

which is why I do not suggest that but instead to nerf current elite specs. Simply said, we already have pointless power creep and I want to remove it as much as possible.

As you mention, more elite specs are coming. This may be our last chance to get to a good power baseline, else all future specs will be balanced around the current level (or worse).

Exedore.6320:

OP is spot-on with the problems of HoT specs. They offer too much utility and sustain without compromising damage. They’re too forgiving of mistakes which leads to brain dead skill spam not being nearly as punishable as it should be.

In order to resurrect the fun of PvP in GW2 (let’s face it, it’s pretty much dead), HoT specs need to be nerfed down to core level. If not, brain dead skill spam with build selection completely eclipsing player skill will continue to be the norm.

However, based on the season3 “balance” changes, I don’t think that will ever happen before PvP becomes a wasteland. The Devs are set on buffing everything to ridiculous levels instead of nerfing the few outliers properly (many across-the board nerfs instead of out-right gutting a couple skills).

+1 to this and OP.

kdaddy.5431:

This needs to stop,

Elite specs are OP but they are working on a expansion and they said they were bringing more spec to mess with.

Its over, join the elite specs and try to make a build with the elite spec line and 2 core ones.

Every meta has had its OP builds and this is no different, GW2 added the 3 point line and guess what they are not taking it back so adapt.

No, it does not need to stop unless you want a dead game.

It’s not just that elite specs are far too powerful; It’s that most are brain-dead OP where you can spam and not be punished for it. THAT has to stop, and in doing so, you’ll bring elite specs down to a reasonable level.

Exedore.6320:

kdaddy.5431:

This needs to stop,

Elite specs are OP but they are working on a expansion and they said they were bringing more spec to mess with.

Its over, join the elite specs and try to make a build with the elite spec line and 2 core ones.

Every meta has had its OP builds and this is no different, GW2 added the 3 point line and guess what they are not taking it back so adapt.

No, it does not need to stop unless you want a dead game.

It’s not just that elite specs are far too powerful; It’s that most are brain-dead OP where you can spam and not be punished for it. THAT has to stop, and in doing so, you’ll bring elite specs down to a reasonable level.

Im sorry but everything you are saying now is the exact same thing about spirit ranger/ hambow warrior/turret engy/ d/d ele that was said in metas before.

The sustain healing/ passive stability/ passive stun breakers have gotten to a ridiculous point. Things you needed to trait for are now handed out, things you needed as a team utility skill now comes as easy as pressing F1,F4, or overload which are free skills.

Did you not just see what they did to warrior?

Please, they are not going back. Many of us have been preaching the give and take of trait lines and classes for a long time. If you want to play a bunker ranger thats fine just as long as you are not doing winning 1 vs 1 with in 20 sec. Im fine with you playing a glass ranger as long as long as you can get wiped in 10 sec vs 2 other players.

We had that in moments before HOT and if you havent noticed from the patches they are buffing certain aspects and the ones they dont like are changing.

You acting like your gonna change Anet decision because you made the 10,000th thread voicing your complaint about spam skills/ spam builds/ makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

Did you even play in Pro Leagues Season 1? Did they fix it immediately after seeing how much of a joke it was or did they wait till the quarter patch to say “ooops dont worry we will fix it” and like fools alot of yall believed them or actually believe these threads will make them actually say “hey they are right, we should REWORK THE WHOLE HOT SPEC LINE.”

Someone hand me a mic so i can drop it…………………………………

They have been “braindead specs” since launch ..in fact any build that doesn’t explode in a couple of seconds to the gimmick burst of the turn..will be deemed braindead sustain.

Yeah..I didn’t start very seriously, but I mean what I’ve just said, all these arguments …are really really stupid

Most “braindead sustain” arguments are started by thieves or “similar” and all these arguments are based on the preface that a build with a burst amulet try to outsustain a build with a bunker amulet.

The burst build will obviously be outsustained in the end and from there the “braindead sustain” argument starts, the funniest part of this argument is that the most important aspect, the amulets involved, it’s not take into consideration

Trying to compare the sustain of bunker with that of a burster is like…comparing apples with oranges, a fair comparison would be the sustain of a burst build with another burst build and it’s there that the fun begin

So let’s have all profession using a marauder amulet all 9 players sharing similar skill level, now taking in consideration the amount of dmg avoidance skills, invulnerability, mobility, efficiency of burst etc etc…. there (laugh) suddenly the professions deemed as the “weakest” actually become the strongest or the so called “god tier”

Thief and warrior will come on top in most case scenarios and you know why?..’cause they have the “braindead sustain” respect to other specs using similar amulet

To all other professions using a burst amulet..the thief will appear as the most OP spec at equal skill level as they can’t match the thief in terms of insta burst access, mobility in and out fight , stealth and more.

Really..the term “OP” is a matter of perspective, far from being an absolute truth

kdaddy.5431:

Im sorry but everything you are saying now is the exact same thing about spirit ranger/ hambow warrior/turret engy/ d/d ele that was said in metas before.

Not in the least. Those builds were powerful (in the case of turret engi, too easy to play at low-mid skill), but they weren’t completely insurmountable. Aside from the latest incarnation of d/d ele just before HoT, none were wiping other builds completely out of play which had been perfectly viable beforehand. HoT specs single-handedly made everything that isn’t a HoT meta build complete trash in comparison no matter how well it’s played.

Please, they are not going back. Many of us have been preaching the give and take of trait lines and classes for a long time.

If they don’t revert their power creeping ways, the game is dead (more than it is now). For what used to be a great game, it’s really sad to see it happening. That’s why so many people are being vocal about it. Unfortunately the current Devs have absolutely no clue how to balance, so I don’t see the game ever being good again.

The suggestion that chronomancer f5 replaces the mesmer f4 is a really fantastic one that should be seriously considered by the devs.

Exedore.6320:

kdaddy.5431:

Im sorry but everything you are saying now is the exact same thing about spirit ranger/ hambow warrior/turret engy/ d/d ele that was said in metas before.

Not in the least. Those builds were powerful (in the case of turret engi, too easy to play at low-mid skill), but they weren’t completely insurmountable. Aside from the latest incarnation of d/d ele just before HoT, none were wiping other builds completely out of play which had been perfectly viable beforehand. HoT specs single-handedly made everything that isn’t a HoT meta build complete trash in comparison no matter how well it’s played.

Please, they are not going back. Many of us have been preaching the give and take of trait lines and classes for a long time.

If they don’t revert their power creeping ways, the game is dead (more than it is now). For what used to be a great game, it’s really sad to see it happening. That’s why so many people are being vocal about it. Unfortunately the current Devs have absolutely no clue how to balance, so I don’t see the game ever being good again.

The reason i brought up those builds was because they were easy to play and it did everything. Obviously the turret engy being the easiest yet with it you could compete with ESL level players, you wouldnt win in the team concept of a 5 vs 5 but if it was still here. It would be a Free 2 Legendary build.

Now why i brought them up is because the fact they kept showing there face. All those build support your team mate with boons, condi removal, yet didnt take any hit so you never lost a fight because you lacked dps, sustain, etc. Its because you did something wrong or your turrets died.

You can go back to the start with it and see youtube videos of caed vs backpack and backpack really only wins the 1 vs 1 with a spirit ranger.

Hambow which was something i played before they changed the cleansing ire thing to make it op with the sigil and rune changes.

Yet these 2 things died very quickly they were the first 2 and Anet saw they were bad and “quickly” changed the set up of how these builds would work.

Now the last 2 in D/D ele and turret engy took Anet years to change. It literally took the player base playing 4-5 d/d eles in ESL matches for Anet to say ohhhh ok i guess its OP.

Im pointing out the facts, the HOT specs like i said are clearly hurting build diversity, too way more damage, have way more sustain, by far is more spammy that literally smashing your face to the key board might work in keeping you alive or stun breaking.

Yet Anet has NEVER shown they care about the PvP enough to really go and make it balanced. This game is PvE oriented, just face it with raids, HOT content and the fact they are making a expansion without even making the small changes people were asking for when HOT first came out when it even came to PvE meta problems.

I dont understand why you actually believe they care? I honestly believe that after S3 n S4 of the Pro Leagues that Anet might quit trying to be ESL from the aspect of the different PvP events. They might bring back a WvW tournament or throw another shiny PvE item that people will want and then bam! 2/3 of the GW2 community will be happy.

This game wont die if PvP doesnt succeeds and you need to know that because they already do.

Silverkey.2078:

Mesmer/Chronomancer

hide spoiler

Mesmer has always been a master duelist, either with its power or condi build.

Chronomancer has been introduced by a-net more by its theme (time control) than its role. But I think it is clear that chronomancer mostly brings team-fight and support abilities. First the shield allows the chrono to stay in fights where mesmer used to just die instantly, second with its wells, and in particular alacrity and quickness, the mesmer can support its team.

This is a good design concept and it “sort of” worked with chrono bunker appearing in season 1. But we see that chrono is still too strong compared to core mesmers, and actually, before bunker chrono became meta, we saw mesmers taking their new tools and play the old duelist role even better than before.

I believe what makes chrono stronger than core mesmer is:

• Continuum split. After the big chrono bunker nerf, many mesmers thought of going back to core mesmer (the chronomancer traits bring barely any damage nor survivability) but CS is mostly what kept them playing chrono. This skill has to be nerfed, and I think the most reasonable way is to prevent CS from resetting elite cooldowns. This makes it less strong and also more interesting to play. I think CS could also been removed from F5 and put instead of F4 while F1-F3 were reworked in a more “chronomancer” fashion (see for example my suggestion https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/What-if-chrono-shatters-replaced-core-ones/first )
• Shield: shield is our best defensive weapon, or best CC and our best support… That’s too much in one. I think the support aspect has to be kept, but the CC and defense need to be brought down a very little bit.
• clone production: illusionary reversion and chronophantasma allow constant flow of illusions and made condi shatter nothing more than “shatter spam”. I used to love playing condi mesmer, but now it has become flavorless to me. That is not the question here, though. My problem with them is that I don’t think they fit the “chronomancer” theme and they belong to the illusion line in my opinion, and should maybe compete with each other.

In compensation to those nerfs, I think many chrono traits are a bit weak currently and need a little love.

Redesigning the mesmer’s mechanics is something which should have been done a long time ago so +1 for that.

But your points on CS or shield are wrong.
Shield is a great support weapon and that’s that. Great cc is a bit of an overstatement given that it’s on a 30s cooldown if executed properly. A supreme breakbar breaker? Sure! Cc… Not so much. Shield compensates for it’s ability with abysmal damage.

Now CS should be left intact for the time being, given that it’s the only thing keeping pve mesmers in the ‘Meta’. Chrono atm is the mesmer’s identity. You’ve talked about defining roles, but core mesmer are what? Low dps, bad mechanics, long elite cooldowns, questionable support.

Nerfing chrono is a kick to mesmers. They have no clear identity, everyone can do everything better than a core mesmer; which is something that should be looked at, how can a class be so underpowered because portal = nuff said. The title master duelists is the biggest deception mesmer’s have been able to pull off.

I think most people perceive this “issue” with elite specs wrongly. I don’t deny that what skills ESpecs brought are a bit stronger than what base classes had, but most of it is just that ESpecs bring more choice. You get to mix base skills with the normal skills, and that’s mostly what brings out their power.

It is impossible to balance out ESpecs with the core professions without completely shutting out the base class or bringing out a new set of ESpecs. Or elevating the main core traitline to ESpec status and quality. And not locking these changes behind HoT.

What needs to happen is they bring out more ESpecs ASAP. Another 2 years for the next expansion is way too long a time to wait for these.

Edit: Okay, got a bit mixed on topic but what I said stands.

mistsim.2748:

i give zero kittens about balancing elite specs. bring up the core specs to the same level first. this should be priority. this was their biggest broken promise, that elites would be on par with score specs. what a disaster.

Sure, because what this game needs more than anything else is MORE powercreep. smh.

Nerf all Elite specs!

Anet don’t give a kitten about PvP anymore, 95% of their efforts go into PvE which is good they fix it so much but work on PvP too.
I have played PvP for 3 years but after getting legend last season I pretty much stopped for good, it’s no fun, in general PvE metas I can happily run what I want instead of being forced into one stupid build. Anet balancing is hopeless.

Yannir.4132:

I think most people perceive this “issue” with elite specs wrongly. I don’t deny that what skills ESpecs brought are a bit stronger than what base classes had, but most of it is just that ESpecs bring more choice. You get to mix base skills with the normal skills, and that’s mostly what brings out their power.

It is impossible to balance out ESpecs with the core professions without completely shutting out the base class or bringing out a new set of ESpecs. Or elevating the main core traitline to ESpec status and quality. And not locking these changes behind HoT.

What needs to happen is they bring out more ESpecs ASAP. Another 2 years for the next expansion is way too long a time to wait for these.

Edit: Okay, got a bit mixed on topic but what I said stands.

I’ve read that argument many times, and I can’t say it is not partly true, but I think it is not nearly as much of a problem. As I said, elite specs have (or should have) a different role. So the amount of overlap between the best core specs and the best elite specs is not too much. Let’s look at mesmer (because it is my main). Core mesmer meta build before HoT (power shatter) was domination + dueling + chaos (PU)/illusion, running GS, sword+torch (PU) or staff. Bunker chrono was chaos, insp, chrono running wells, staff and sword shield. They use different traits and different weapons, so making sure that both are in the meta is fairly doable by selective balancing on those traits, skills and weapons.

So in summary, as long as the core and elite offer different roles, it is easy to keep balance.

Thins get difficult when the elite spec also synergies well with the core role. And this is a bit more controversial because one could argue that for higher build diversity, elite specs should synergies with many core traits and skills. And it was definitely built this way. For example, still in chrono, alacrity reduces all cooldown and thus helps any build, superspeed on shatter favors mostly shatter builds, etc…
This is more difficult to balance.

However, regardless of this problem, I think some changes (like the ones I suggested above) would go a long way and at least reduce the gap.

Entropy.6784:

But your points on CS or shield are wrong.
Shield is a great support weapon and that’s that. Great cc is a bit of an overstatement given that it’s on a 30s cooldown if executed properly. A supreme breakbar breaker? Sure! Cc… Not so much. Shield compensates for it’s ability with abysmal damage.

You seem to be speaking mostly from a PvE point of view. But still in terms of CC:

• GS: 1 AOE push/30s
• Staff: random AOE daze/35s
• sword: 1 target daze/12s (hidden behind a block)
• focus: 1 AOE pull/25s
• pistol: 1 “AOE” stun/daze/25s
• shield: 2 AOE stun/30s

while you could argue that push and pull are stronger than stun, shield remains one of the strongest CC. Only pistol can beat it if traited because the pistol recharge on interrupt can be massive.

Now CS should be left intact for the time being, given that it’s the only thing keeping pve mesmers in the ‘Meta’.

I’ve read that a lot, from Pyro mostly. But this is not true. Even if there was NO continuum split at all (which is not what I am suggesting), 2 shield phantasms up + traited recall, eternity and action used off-cooldown means more than 90% uptime on alacrity. Action, untraited TW and shield 5 off-CD and assuming SoI doubles on action and shield 5 means 60% quickness uptime with 0% boon duration, meaning 100% easily reached with investment in boon duration. And since I suggest just preventing elite in CS, you would actually get much more than that. So no, PvE mesmer would survive EVEN without CS, definitely if CS is simply changed to prevent elite. As a matter of fact, Time warp is the lowest contribution to the quickness uptime.

Chrono atm is the mesmer’s identity. You’ve talked about defining roles, but core mesmer are what? Low dps, bad mechanics, long elite cooldowns, questionable support.

Here again, you seem to mention PvE. In PvP, mesmer had its place pre-HoT. In the current state, chrono is needed for PvE and it will still be the case with my suggested changes. Ultimately, I would love if the sustained DPS of mesmer was increased, see my suggestion for that in my signature.

The title master duelists is the biggest deception mesmer’s have been able to pull off.

This is and always was the case. Both condi and power mesmer are a forced to be reckon with in a PvP duel. And chrono finally allows mesmer to join team fights.

You don’t understand DH. Daze helps traps trap people and interrupt potentially harmful skills. What needs to change with virtues is the time the boons trigger from the virtues traitline. Also, DH F1 can hit more than one person.

Stability and LB knockback is beautiful. It shouldn’t change.

My vanilla Warrior agrees with nerfing all the elite specs <evil face>

mrauls.6519:

You don’t understand DH. Daze helps traps trap people and interrupt potentially harmful skills. What needs to change with virtues is the time the boons trigger from the virtues traitline. Also, DH F1 can hit more than one person.

Stability and LB knockback is beautiful. It shouldn’t change.

First: daze don’t help trapping people. You can still move and dodge. If anything, daze warns you that there is a trap so you can dodge it.

Second: interrupting potentially harmful skills is great, and clearly the point of a CC. But you don’t just put a CC hoping you interrupt something good. You put a CC to interrupt something specific. While as a DH I do sometimes use traps specifically for interrupting, I often use them for their damaging effect, and the CC just becomes annoyance but not clever play. AOE CC should not be a “side effect”, it should be a deliberate choice and the skill should have CC as a main effect. I don’t mind changing one of the trap to be a CC trap. But it should not come with all of them simply as a trait.

Finally, I am not against knockback on LB, but again, not random. I think it should be attached to a specific skill for it to work properly. You may even see it as a buff.
To some extent, this is not the worst part of the DH. You pretty much expect the knock back on the first LB skill after weapon swap, so you can play with it (as a DH) or avoid it (as the enemy).

Silverkey.2078:

mrauls.6519:

You don’t understand DH. Daze helps traps trap people and interrupt potentially harmful skills. What needs to change with virtues is the time the boons trigger from the virtues traitline. Also, DH F1 can hit more than one person.

Stability and LB knockback is beautiful. It shouldn’t change.

First: daze don’t help trapping people. You can still move and dodge. If anything, daze warns you that there is a trap so you can dodge it.

Second: interrupting potentially harmful skills is great, and clearly the point of a CC. But you don’t just put a CC hoping you interrupt something good. You put a CC to interrupt something specific. While as a DH I do sometimes use traps specifically for interrupting, I often use them for their damaging effect, and the CC just becomes annoyance but not clever play. AOE CC should not be a “side effect”, it should be a deliberate choice and the skill should have CC as a main effect. I don’t mind changing one of the trap to be a CC trap. But it should not come with all of them simply as a trait.

Finally, I am not against knockback on LB, but again, not random. I think it should be attached to a specific skill for it to work properly. You may even see it as a buff.
To some extent, this is not the worst part of the DH. You pretty much expect the knock back on the first LB skill after weapon swap, so you can play with it (as a DH) or avoid it (as the enemy).

Yes it does. It can stop people from triggering skills that would help them negate the traps effect or use skills to get away.

I just don’t think some of your balance ideas for DH are plausible. I respect your opinion, and we may have to agree to disagree, but it sounds like you’re suggesting a total rework. If stability was to go on any skill it would have to be LB #2 imo. It would become OP then though. LB #3 would put it on too long of a CD.

If trap daze was removed I would expect to receive a heal on trap deploy. People would probably miss trap daze at that point. It’s not a side effect, it is an active effect. You know daze is going to happen. IMO, skills that have a 20% chance of occurring are more like a side effect to me

As long as sustain across all classes is nerfed, guardian traps wont be much of an issue. You would be able to kill them before they place them at your location. Guardians then would be forced to be smart about when and where they use traps.

I think disabling a crucial trait line for elite can work well. No virtues for Dh, no marksmanship for druid…etc. It will not destroy the elites but at least there will be some difference between elite and core.

Btw, I think the core traitline for ranger is Beastmastery, not Marksmanship. You don’t necessarily have a bow but you always have a pet, right?

alain.1659:

I think disabling a crucial trait line for elite can work well. No virtues for Dh, no marksmanship for druid…etc. It will not destroy the elites but at least there will be some difference between elite and core.

foste.3098:

What if the trait line that enhances your profession mechanic was turned in to a elite specialization (discipline, trickery, soul reaping, beast mastery, illusions, tools, invocation, virtues, arcane). This way they can giving us some build diversity (before another expansion), you ether stick with the vanila elite specs (and therefor the base class name) and 2 other core ones or the HoT elite spec (and change to the different class name) and 2 other core ones.
Of course there would have to be some rebalancing done to make the ‘new’ vanila elite competitive in power to the HoT elite, but we can all agree that the game is in need of balance as is so it woild not be a big deal.

The reason i bring this idea up is because thees specializations are used in almost every build anyway (most warrior builds take discipline, every thief pick trickery, every guardian build pick up virtues, infact only mesmer, engineer and ele do not pick theirs currently) and by making them elite the players would be forced in to a choice, and non HoT players will have access to a competitive build. This is assuming they balance them according to the power level of HoT elite specs, and every future elite spec.

I believe this is the best way to bring power creep in line and force some build diversity in. (even tho you are forced to take 1 of 2 specific lines we would have more diversity than now, and anet would have an easier time balancing things).

Making the profession mechanic trait line into an elite won’t solve power creep. It nerfs some builds, but others like Tempest and Scrapper don’t use that trait line.

Bump !

Or each spell on each ‘’Elite Specialization’’ (if you buy the x-pack) ,
‘’suck up’’ your energy (that help you dodge) and drop it on the ground in random directions as orbs (170-210 yards away) , while you you yell ’’MY GLASSES , MY GLASSES)

Or you have to constatly maintain 2 stacks of Vigor (which in Raids or WvWvW you wont get effected much-other ppl will spam it)

Great input from the OP.

I definitely think that one of the overarching problems with elite specs was that they should have been designed to do something specific exceedingly well, but often ended up allowing classes to do almost everything better.

I won’t speak to all the points, but here’s my 2 copper on Thief/DD:

Daredevil definitely seemed to be designed for the bruiser playstyle, but Dash is the primary reason that it’s still chosen by D/P roamers.

My advice would be to make Dash baseline and have it replaced by Bound/Lotus if traited in Daredevil. I know this is a bit of a power creep, but frankly, there’s too much creep to ever go back to where we were before anyways. This at least evens the playing field and would make a DA/SA/Tr D/P build more appealing.

The second major problem with Daredevil is that it is redundant with Acrobatics when it could have been made to synergize with it instead.
Daredevil:

• Gives endurance regen
• Gives damage
• Gives condi removal
• Gives swiftness (if dash traited)
• Gives new dodging mechanics

Acrobatics

• Gives endurance regen
• Gives damage
• Gives condi removal
• Gives swiftness

Taking dash off Daredevil would solve part of the redundancy. However, I’d also recommend the following:

• Make dash baseline, but remove swiftness. Put swiftness somewhere in SA (swiftness on stealth maybe?) to give D/P mobility
• Remove condi removal entirely from Daredevil
• Buff condi removal in Acro a bit (Maybe just replace Pain Response with Escapist’s Absolution)

If these changes were made, let’s take a look at the results:

• DA/SA/Tr D/P could still handle conditions, even with a nerfed dash
• Acro/Daredevil trait lines would synergize well for brawler builds that jump in fights and survive with evasive techniques.

Don’t own HoT expansion so I can’t say my experience playing them, but I being a gw2 player since per-launch I can share my experience playing against them….

Kitten Horrible

It’s not impossible to use a core spec and win, because the elite spec’s are being used by new players as well but in ranked season 2 and even unranked the effort that they have to use to be “efficient” in pvp, now put that build in the hands of a competent player who knows the class and mechanics of pvp?

No its horribly unbalanced and needless to say Arena Net will NEVER admit that Hot spec’s are better than Core spec’s because of politics. Whether this was done intentionally (which 99% would probably say yes) or that it was done to address profession issues and give them an option to break free of them the fact remains that Core builds are by no means statistically or mechanically comparable to the new elite specializations.

To put old players who don’t own HoT or new players who haven’t purchased HoT at this disadvantage is pathetic, it only shows the power of greed and not the satisfaction for the players. I still managed to get 3/4 of the way into ruby using non-HoT builds playing maybe 6 hours a week only because the professions I played I know well, but I still died to complete fools (shown by playing the easiest builds in beginner armor) countless times and I’d see them just button smashing to win. The good players using those builds just recked me over and over and I had no choice but to run or re-queue. Past update did several good things but balance should NOT be done in these quarterly updates, fix your game Arena Net. Do More balance patches, even if they are small changes address things that aren’t used and the ones that are overused, isn’t rocket science to know what is working really well and what doesn’t work.

NinjaEd.3946:

Don’t own HoT expansion so I can’t say my experience playing them, but I being a gw2 player since per-launch I can share my experience playing against them….

Kitten Horrible

It’s not impossible to use a core spec and win, because the elite spec’s are being used by new players as well but in ranked season 2 and even unranked the effort that they have to use to be “efficient” in pvp, now put that build in the hands of a competent player who knows the class and mechanics of pvp?

No its horribly unbalanced and needless to say Arena Net will NEVER admit that Hot spec’s are better than Core spec’s because of politics. Whether this was done intentionally (which 99% would probably say yes) or that it was done to address profession issues and give them an option to break free of them the fact remains that Core builds are by no means statistically or mechanically comparable to the new elite specializations.

To put old players who don’t own HoT or new players who haven’t purchased HoT at this disadvantage is pathetic, it only shows the power of greed and not the satisfaction for the players. I still managed to get 3/4 of the way into ruby using non-HoT builds playing maybe 6 hours a week only because the professions I played I know well, but I still died to complete fools (shown by playing the easiest builds in beginner armor) countless times and I’d see them just button smashing to win. The good players using those builds just recked me over and over and I had no choice but to run or re-queue. Past update did several good things but balance should NOT be done in these quarterly updates, fix your game Arena Net. Do More balance patches, even if they are small changes address things that aren’t used and the ones that are overused, isn’t rocket science to know what is working really well and what doesn’t work.

I don’t know if this power creep was intended, but I think it is not such a great strategy actually. The reason is that they went free to play not so long before, meaning that there is a large influx of new players owning only the core game. This is a bad first impression when you start playing a game and you are severely outgunned by everyone else (on top of your own inexperience).

NinjaEd.3946:

Don’t own HoT expansion so I can’t say my experience playing them, but I being a gw2 player since per-launch I can share my experience playing against them….

Kitten Horrible

It’s not impossible to use a core spec and win, because the elite spec’s are being used by new players as well but in ranked season 2 and even unranked the effort that they have to use to be “efficient” in pvp, now put that build in the hands of a competent player who knows the class and mechanics of pvp?

No its horribly unbalanced and needless to say Arena Net will NEVER admit that Hot spec’s are better than Core spec’s because of politics. Whether this was done intentionally (which 99% would probably say yes) or that it was done to address profession issues and give them an option to break free of them the fact remains that Core builds are by no means statistically or mechanically comparable to the new elite specializations.

To put old players who don’t own HoT or new players who haven’t purchased HoT at this disadvantage is pathetic, it only shows the power of greed and not the satisfaction for the players. I still managed to get 3/4 of the way into ruby using non-HoT builds playing maybe 6 hours a week only because the professions I played I know well, but I still died to complete fools (shown by playing the easiest builds in beginner armor) countless times and I’d see them just button smashing to win. The good players using those builds just recked me over and over and I had no choice but to run or re-queue. Past update did several good things but balance should NOT be done in these quarterly updates, fix your game Arena Net. Do More balance patches, even if they are small changes address things that aren’t used and the ones that are overused, isn’t rocket science to know what is working really well and what doesn’t work.

Ahh, it looks like we got the same ol’ argument we’ve seen elsewhere:

“I’ve been playing this game for years and only had to pay $50, but it’s ArenaNet who is the greedy one, since they expect me to pay anything else for this constantly updated content, even when their primary competition would be charging me $15 a month on top of the cost of an expansion that’s even more mandatory than GW2’s.”

Dahkeus.8243:

NinjaEd.3946:

Don’t own HoT expansion so I can’t say my experience playing them, but I being a gw2 player since per-launch I can share my experience playing against them….

Kitten Horrible

It’s not impossible to use a core spec and win, because the elite spec’s are being used by new players as well but in ranked season 2 and even unranked the effort that they have to use to be “efficient” in pvp, now put that build in the hands of a competent player who knows the class and mechanics of pvp?

No its horribly unbalanced and needless to say Arena Net will NEVER admit that Hot spec’s are better than Core spec’s because of politics. Whether this was done intentionally (which 99% would probably say yes) or that it was done to address profession issues and give them an option to break free of them the fact remains that Core builds are by no means statistically or mechanically comparable to the new elite specializations.

To put old players who don’t own HoT or new players who haven’t purchased HoT at this disadvantage is pathetic, it only shows the power of greed and not the satisfaction for the players. I still managed to get 3/4 of the way into ruby using non-HoT builds playing maybe 6 hours a week only because the professions I played I know well, but I still died to complete fools (shown by playing the easiest builds in beginner armor) countless times and I’d see them just button smashing to win. The good players using those builds just recked me over and over and I had no choice but to run or re-queue. Past update did several good things but balance should NOT be done in these quarterly updates, fix your game Arena Net. Do More balance patches, even if they are small changes address things that aren’t used and the ones that are overused, isn’t rocket science to know what is working really well and what doesn’t work.

Ahh, it looks like we got the same ol’ argument we’ve seen elsewhere:

“I’ve been playing this game for years and only had to pay $50, but it’s ArenaNet who is the greedy one, since they expect me to pay anything else for this constantly updated content, even when their primary competition would be charging me $15 a month on top of the cost of an expansion that’s even more mandatory than GW2’s.”

I was fine with the game at launch with a few balance patches, its only gone down hill since and with HoT, it was a huge hill to go down. So yeah, I don’t care to buy their expansion just so I can use the meta builds and have an easier winning experience. Money ain’t the issue, its principle and these “constant” updates" haven’t really been anything but balance updates which should never cost a dime.

And don’t pretend there aren’t numerous games out there that offer free updates to their content big and small. Its about fixing your game, not about scamming your loyal players.

kdaddy.5431:

This needs to stop,

Elite specs are OP but they are working on a expansion and they said they were bringing more spec to mess with.

Its over, join the elite specs and try to make a build with the elite spec line and 2 core ones.

Every meta has had its OP builds and this is no different, GW2 added the 3 point line and guess what they are not taking it back so adapt.

I have to agree with this as it is on point with how this game is progressing. I do feel as if the core specs give new players a good starting point in this game and see what the class is all about.

What the OP described for Mesmer is kind of ridiculous. Little do people forget that Mesmer only received an off-hand weapon that contains 2 new skills. Other classes gained access to a full line of skills and they said that they’d give Mesmer/Warrior a little something different. What we have is another function ability – so before you talking about taking away, really think this through because you clearly didn’t

IR was already nerfed so I don’t see any further need on nerfing this further. Shield 5 is so easy to avoid and overall, a good design.

CSplit not working on elites is only going to change the focus of CSplit with other abilities. Not too many people use double moa (only the really bad ones) in succession on the same player and in doing so, you lose out on a lot of sustain/damage potential. But to humor you, and like I’ve mentioned, taking away CSplit from elites will focus the rage to other abilities.

Dragonhunter – I’m not quite sure where the OP was going with this but I don’t think you really play or have played one for an extensive amount of time. There’s a lot wrong with DH outside of virtues and you’re not thinking holistically here. True Shot damage was fine but I get why they did it. The radical change that they need to revert is Hunter’s Ward – that alone was a huge nerf, more so than True Shot damage reduction.

In short, elite specs are the future of this game. Two core lines to supplement an elite spec is going to be how this game progresses and people need to realize this inarguable fact. But I get it now; we only have access to one elite and some people feel pigeonholed into taking it. Elite specs offer more and I believe they should. When we start getting more elite specs, then I am holding onto the belief that we will have more build diversity.

Good analysis by OP. Most elite specs are still much above the core spec and this limits build diversity. Less build diversity leads to faster boredom. I hope Arenanet seriously understands this or the participation rates will be down.

Anet will literally NEVER balance elite specs until the next expansion or until this one has been out long enough that the cash-cow has run its course.

They’re more powerful than the other specs for a reason. If they weren’t, people would be less inclined to purchase HoT.

Anet has literally ZERO interest in balance if it comes at the expense of profits. ZERO.