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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

Can we please convert this into resistance?
I thought we was moving away from having un-removable buffs in the game. Quickness, Resistance..

No counterplay to a warrior smashing into you with his 8-20 seconds immunity to conditions depending on if you have boon removal.

I feel like it’s the one skill holding all the other stances back from getting a CDR trait too.

Resistance currently stops all conditions from functioning on you. A lot of people in this thread seem to be assuming they will still suffer from chill, Immob, blind and cripple which is WRONG.

If your a condition build your as good as dead now.

Edit: This discussion is about BERSERKER STANCE. Please do not derail the thread into rampage/warrior weaponset balance discussions.

Edit2: Arguing against resistance due to boon stripping making it useless are weak. Every other class in the game will pickup boons because boonstripping isn’t avaliable 24/7. The only ones who have a high amount of avaliability are power thief and power mesmer, Both of which resistance is close to useless against.

Edit3: Remember this is a post asking for it to be CONVERTED not removed. Therefore any arguements that say play WITHOUT IT are not giving the experience that you would have if it would be converted to resistance and are a poor representation of the balance.

Edit4: Using “Running away” as a “Counterplay” isn’t a counterplay at all. If running away is classed as a counterplay then surely nothing will ever be OP because we always have the option to run away from it.

Edit5: Please don’t compare zerker stance balance from a year ago, The balance has changed and the damage output is much higher now. Meaning immunitys of any kind got indirectly buffed.

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Posted by: Tao.1234

Tao.1234

no….

/15disagreements

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

No counterplay to berserkers stance —→ Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable. If you play certain classes your as good as dead when he hits zerker stance.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

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Posted by: Tao.1234

Tao.1234

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

Eh, Cleansing eir isn’t viable? I would argue that was one of the strongest pre-patch condition removals, They also have shouts, warhorn.

I mean shoutbow pretty much stopped any full condi build entering the meta.

I don’t think the fact that conditions counter warrior more is a good enough reason for it to have an unremovable version of resistance. It’s globally strong against ALL condition classes, Converting it to resistance would give classes that can remove boons a way to counter it, While not making it globally useless. Even having it pulse would be better than what it currently is.

Necro lacks stability, so naturally anything cc heavy is it’s weakness (Hammwarrior, Generally any mesmer.) I would be the first to admit that an un-removable 8 second stability is broken though.

A condi necro has no way to interrupt nor do anything from a warrior for 8 seconds.
This becomes a lot more noticable on the new map when the only way to interrupt is via CC.

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Posted by: Tao.1234

Tao.1234

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

Eh, Cleansing eir isn’t viable? I would argue that was one of the strongest pre-patch condition removals, They also have shouts, warhorn.

Let’s define “viable” regarding how it does work.

Condition removal per Adrenaline Bar spent.
And here’s a trick – you need to hit the target, or at least deal 0 damage for Cleansing Ire to activate.
If target will evade, become invincible/immune, then you will lose all Adrenaline, get skill on cooldown, but Cleansing Ire will not activate and cleanse condtions from you.

The only exception is Longbow.

I mean shoutbow pretty much stopped any full condi build entering the meta.

Because Shoutbow is silly.
You have a rune that remove 1 Condition from 5 targets when Shout skill is being used. Makes Shake it Off pretty OP now. And here we have a Shake it Off trait as well.

Longbow Burst skill is GTAoE skill which is the only exception to activate Cleansing Ire – you hit the ground and skill is being fully activated which is a pre for CI activation.

I don’t think the fact that conditions counter warrior more is a good enough reason for it to have an unremovable version of resistance. It’s globally strong against ALL condition classes, Converting it to resistance would give classes that can remove boons a way to counter it, While not making it globally useless. Even having it pulse would be better than what it currently is.

Necro lacks stability, so naturally anything cc heavy is it’s weakness (Hammwarrior, Generally any mesmer.) I would be the first to admit that an un-removable 8 second stability is broken though.

A condi necro has no way to interrupt nor do anything from a warrior for 8 seconds.
This becomes a lot more noticable on the new map when the only way to interrupt is via CC.

Converting Zerk stance to Resistance would be the biggest nerf Warrior would get and would turn this class into a Free kill for every single Condition Build available in game.

What makes Warrior put a fight vs Condition builds is exactly that utility skill which temporarily prevents any condtions to be applied to Warrior.

Turning it into Resistance would only nullify the damage for that period of time, and still would allow Condtion Build users to apply high stacks and keep stable duration of Conditions on Warrior.

Including how CI does work, like I said, Warrior would become a Free Kill.

And making Longbow mandatory just for CI isn’t something that should happen.
Hence, no weapon should become mandatory for something like that.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

Because Shoutbow is silly.
You have a rune that remove 1 Condition from 5 targets when Shout skill is being used. Makes Shake it Off pretty OP now. And here we have a Shake it Off trait as well.

Longbow Burst skill is GTAoE skill which is the only exception to activate Cleansing Ire – you hit the ground and skill is being fully activated which is a pre for CI activation.

But you still have options. Theres plenty of builds out there that are weak to conditions because they have the option to take something but they don’t.
We have to look at the class as a whole and not singular builds as the build you run will obviously have some counters.

Cleansing eir is still a great trait assuming you focus on the enemys cooldowns and ensure that you land your burst. They also have removal on weaponswap which isn’t too bad considering it’s a 5 second cd.

Converting Zerk stance to Resistance would be the biggest nerf Warrior would get and would turn this class into a Free kill for every single Condition Build available in game.

I disagree, It changes absoloutley nothing against ranger, Engineer, Ele, other warriors.

Guard and thief would have to specifically trait for it. (Which guard and condi thief probably won’t.)

Mesmer and necro are the only ones who really benefit from it. Only if the mesmer is running greatsword or sword (Both kinda lame condition weapons) or is traited into domination (Bad line for condi mesmer.)

What makes Warrior put a fight vs Condition builds is exactly that utility skill which temporarily prevents any condtions to be applied to Warrior.

Turning it into Resistance would only nullify the damage for that period of time, and still would allow Condtion Build users to apply high stacks and keep stable duration of Conditions on Warrior.

With condition duration nerfed and poison and burn now stacking in intensity, It wouldn’t be wise to apply them. You still get the 8 seconds of no condition damage. It’s just not “8 seconds of no condition damage + another 5 or so for them to apply them all.”

Including how CI does work, like I said, Warrior would become a Free Kill.

I don’t see how, Just land your burst. All the necro transfers require you to land your skills too. I don’t think it’s fair to say they have no condi removal because your opponent dodges.

And making Longbow mandatory just for CI isn’t something that should happen.
Hence, no weapon should become mandatory for something like that.

A lot of weapons are mandatory on a lot of classes. In this case it would be for the “Safe cleanse.” You could still take other weapons if your confident you can land your burst.

Necros always have to take staff for condi removal/Only ranged weapon in power build.

Currently zerker stance isn’t countering specific builds on specific classes. It’s countering condition builds across the board and giving them no way to counterplay against it. Most counter matchups have a chance to win, Zerker stance makes you run for 8 seconds while taking damage, Then and only then, You can attempt to even fight back.

Warriors do have other forms of condition removal. Nobody uses them because of zerker stance. IIRC they have a signet which is a full cleanse and a heal which cleanses 3? They also have 4 traits, Cleansing eir, Weaponswap one, Warhorn conversion and shake it off.

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable. If you play certain classes your as good as dead when he hits zerker stance.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

You’re saying that rampage warriors are facerolling you because of zerker stance, and yet you want zerker stance to be a resistance because you’re a necro that can easily remove the boon from them. Sorry, but no. Rampage IS the problem. Zerker stance is needed for many warrior builds and nerfing it just because you can’t deal with a zerker stance rampage is clearly an issue with rampage, not zerker stance. Let’s just nerf a skill because you can’t deal with a warrior when he activates it while in rampage and its 150 second cooldown…While massively nerfing a warrior not in rampage in the process.

Here is a simple fix to your problem without completely gutting unnecessary things: While in rampage, all currently applied stances are removed.

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

That utility skill has already had it’s duration and adrenalin gain reduced and you can no longer use it outside of combat to gain adrenalin before you fight. Now you want to make it vulnerable to boon rip/removal and boon stealing?

Let’s face it though, the real issue we have with this is the weak, limited amount of active condition removals warriors are down to.
Cleansing Ire was already bad enough without longbow before. After the changes it became almost useless in many scenarios.

The only positive change we have gotten in ages was Brawler’s Recovery.

Other condition removals force you to take a weak weapon and a trait or a set of runes and two to three full utility slots to make them work.
There aren’t any real condition removals based on your weapon skills, unlike other classes’ skills. Everything is based on using important rune, trait or utility choices as boon removals.

We’d need some big changes to active and passive condition removal before anyone can justify nerfing that skill even more.

Wonder how people would like it if they removed an active skill like that and gave us a trait like “remove 1-3 conditions every 10seconds based on how much adrenalin you have”.

(edited by Henry.5713)

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

You’re saying that rampage warriors are facerolling you because of zerker stance, and yet you want zerker stance to be a resistance because you’re a necro that can easily remove the boon from them.

I responded earlier but it got deleted. Stop seeing this purely from a necro v warrior 1v1 perspective and look at it from a broader scale. The example i gave earlier was just an example. The problem doesn’t lie with rampage because you can remove stab/Apply movement hindering conditions or blind. The problem lies with zerker stance.

I can screenshot you my games played if you want. They’re all roughly the same with mesmer having 3×. Don’t judge people based on whats written in a signature. I can write anything there.

Yes, Necro should be able to remove it. It’s their job. Do you think it would be balanced if deathshroud gave necros an unremovable cc immunity?

Sorry, but no. Rampage IS the problem.

We’re all entitled to opinions. Theres no need to get so aggressive emphasizing on the “IS” This is all opinions, There’s no right and wrong. Rampage was barely used prepatch because the damage wasn’t great. Now the damage is pretty high but it becomes unstoppable when paired with zerker stance.

Hammerwarrior is the same thing, Zerker stance makes it unstoppable. You have to just rely on them to be bad and eventually miss something or chain all their cc when you stunbreak and dodge.

Zerker stance is needed for many warrior builds

So your in agreement that it’s so strong it’s used in nearly all builds?

and nerfing it just because you can’t deal with a zerker stance rampage is clearly an issue with rampage, not zerker stance.

No, It’s an issue with zerker stance. I can deal with rampage on basically all classes. Zerker stance however has 0 counterplay beyond changing your character.

Let’s just nerf a skill because you can’t deal with a warrior when he activates it while in rampage and its 180 second cooldown…

You get so personal. It’s not “Just me” Anyone with a full condition build “Can’t deal” with zerker stance. There is no counterplay to it. It’s the only skill in the game that actually makes you run away for 8 seconds. It doesn’t matter if it’s rampage or hammer. The fact they are the stronger sets is due to the cc capability.

While massively nerfing a warrior not in rampage in the process.

As posted earlier, The ONLY class that will be able to remove it is mesmers and necros. Everything else has to trait for it. The only thing it changes is that now you have 8 seconds of condition immunity and not 8 seconds of condition immunity followed by 5 seconds of little to no conditions that are easily removed by other means.

It’s not that big of a nerf. It just allows some room for condi classes to do something other than go afk when he actives it.

Here is a simple fix to your problem without completely gutting unnecessary things: While in rampage, all currently applied stances are removed.

No because rampage isn’t the problem. Zerker stance is.

That utility skill has already had it’s duration and adrenalin gain reduced and you can no longer use it outside of combat to gain adrenalin before you fight.

That’s a global thing, You don’t keep adrenaline outside of combat. I dont think it’s fair to use that as a con when all of your adrenaline gaining skills (Signet) have the same effect.

Wonder how people would like it if they removed an active skill like that and gave us a trait like “remove 1-3 conditions every 10seconds based on how much adrenalin you have”.

Well with the weaponswap trait alone you remove 3 conditions every 12 seconds/15 seconds without runes. That’s assuming you miss every burst skill and never get a cleanse from that.

That being said, You already have CI and nobody likes passive skills. (Yes i know CI requires you to land your skill but we can’t try to justify being rewarded for missing, All of necros weapon skill transfers require you to hit your skills)

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Posted by: Deimos Tel Arin.7391

Deimos Tel Arin.7391

you want to make it into resistance sure?

8 seconds base duration
4 pulses
2 seconds interval per pulse
6 adrenaline per pulse
2 seconds of resistance per pulse
40 seconds recharge

then we’re good.

other wise.
deal with it.

berserker stance has been working as intended since its introduction.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

berserker stance has been working as intended since its introduction.

Never claimed anywhere that it was a bug.

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Posted by: roamzero.9486

roamzero.9486

Zerker Stance is pretty OP now if you chain it with Healing Signet active. 20 seconds of condi immunity against any condi class that can’t strip boons.

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

I responded earlier but it got deleted. Stop seeing this purely from a necro v warrior 1v1 perspective and look at it from a broader scale. The example i gave earlier was just an example. The problem doesn’t lie with rampage because you can remove stab/Apply movement hindering conditions or blind. The problem lies with zerker stance.

I’m seeing it from your point of view, because that’s the class you play. There are many builds and classes that can faceroll a zerker stance warrior. The only builds that have a large issue with it are the ones that go purely condition damage…And that’s the consequence you pay for using a tanky condition spec. Even then, it’s not like you can’t leave for a whole 8 seconds until you’re able to damage them again. Flesh worm comes in very useful for this.

I can screenshot you my games played if you want. They’re all roughly the same with mesmer having 3×. Don’t judge people based on whats written in a signature. I can write anything there.

Well, mesmer is one of the classes that pretty much hard counters warrior. Even if you were to run full condition, they can just invis themselves until their stane is used.

Yes, Necro should be able to remove it. It’s their job. Do you think it would be balanced if deathshroud gave necros an unremovable cc immunity?

It gives them a full life bar. Pretty kitten good I’d say.

It’s a necro’s job to remove boons and apply it to themselves. Berserker’s stance isn’t a boon. It’s a warrior specific skill that prevent taking condition damage for 8 seconds. So no, it isn’t their job to remove berserker’s stance. It’s got a 60 second cooldown that serves one purpose. To have a necro rip it from them with the click of a button. That would be real cool, right?

We’re all entitled to opinions. Theres no need to get so aggressive emphasizing on the “IS” This is all opinions, There’s no right and wrong. Rampage was barely used prepatch because the damage wasn’t great. Now the damage is pretty high but it becomes unstoppable when paired with zerker stance.

And this is why I feel you’re only looking at this through a monocle. Rampage can be traited to do roughly 250% attack damage, it decreases the damage you take by 25%, it doubles your HP pool, skills and traits you activate before using rampage transfer over to rampage once you use it…So many things make rampage an unstoppable force, and yet somehow berserker stance is what you’ve concluded to be overpowered. Sounds legit.

What I don’t get is why you even brought up rampage at all if Berserker Stance is what you have beef with. I already listed an easy fix to your dilemma with zerker stance rampage. Stances currently applied to you do not transfer over to rampage.

Problem solved.

Hammerwarrior is the same thing, Zerker stance makes it unstoppable. You have to just rely on them to be bad and eventually miss something or chain all their cc when you stunbreak and dodge.

No, it doesn’t make them unstoppable. They’re very easy to deal with on anything that’s not purely condition damage. They have to rely on you being bad because all of their skills are highly telegraphed. Don’t dodge their earthshaker? Well, you deserve what comes next. 8 seconds isn’t even enough to contest a point. Pay attention to when they pop it, disengage, and finish them off after the stance wears off. Because they’re at a disadvantage without it.

PvP is a team game, if your condition spec is having issues with a berserker stance warrior, then let one of your other teammates deal with them. ‘cause y’know, most classes have been running power specs…Where Berserker stance is far less useful.

So your in agreement that it’s so strong it’s used in nearly all builds?

I’m in agreement that warrior is far from the best class currently, and berserker stance is a key to letting them deal with some of their counters. Warriors can’t stack a kitten ton of boons like some other classes, if zerker stance ever became a boon, it would be counter productive to use at all. So many classes could use it against them, while they wasted a skill on a long cooldown.

You get so personal. It’s not “Just me” Anyone with a full condition build “Can’t deal” with zerker stance.

I just think you’re completely out of touch with what needs nerfed, and what needs to be left alone.

(edited by Kagamiku.9731)

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

There is no counterplay to it. It’s the only skill in the game that actually makes you run away for 8 seconds. It doesn’t matter if it’s rampage or hammer.

Diamond Skin says hi, except then you just run away forever, right? Also I’d really like to see a video of you soloing lich form or rampage without you running from them with your tail between your legs.

The fact they are the stronger sets is due to the cc capability.

Hammer is so easy to dodge, I don’t even. The only thing I can think of is you don’t see them proc zerker stance, and you keep pewpewing away in melee range, only to realize you haven’t been doing any damage to them and they now have you in a CC combo. Kite them for 8 seconds, it’s not hard.

As posted earlier, The ONLY class that will be able to remove it is mesmers and necros.

And thiefs. That’s almost half the classes. And warriors already have a huge problem with those classes. Blind spam, fear spam…Everything about a mesmer is spam.

The only thing it changes is that now you have 8 seconds of condition immunity and not 8 seconds of condition immunity followed by 5 seconds of little to no conditions that are easily removed by other means.

What are you even talking about here? Berserker’s stance is 8 seconds where conditions can’t be applied to you. What is this “followed by 5 seconds of little to no conditions”

It’s not that big of a nerf. It just allows some room for condi classes to do something other than go afk when he actives it.

It is a big nerf. Big enough to where warriors would stop using it because of how easily strippable boons are on a warrior.

Warrior: Pops zerker stance
Necro: I’ll be taking that!
Warrior: All these fears….

Or thiefs saving their steal for when we pop zerker stance, so they can blind spam us to death.

(edited by Kagamiku.9731)

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

Diamond Skin says hi, except then you just run away forever, right?

Lifeblast can get diamond skin down most of the time. Along with our golem. Once it’s down it usually doesn’t get back up. Ontop of that they have less cc and overall damage.

Hammer is so easy to dodge, I don’t even. The only thing I can think of is you don’t see them proc zerker stance, and you keep pewpewing away in melee range, only to realize you haven’t been doing any damage to them and they now have you in a CC combo. Kite them for 8 seconds, it’s not hard.

You keep dereailing the thread, It doesn’t matter what weapon your using. You have 2 dodges, Once they are gone you have to tank damage untill zerker stance is down. Then if you dont have boon removal you have to survive another 6-7 seconds from healing signet resistance.

And thiefs. That’s almost half the classes. And warriors already have a huge problem with those classes. Blind spam, fear spam…Everything about a mesmer is spam.

Almost half the classes have a way to counter one skill in your utility bar IF it gets changed. That also relies on both the thief and the mesmer to be in power builds, Making it useless against them anyway.

Warrior can generally kill thief now, That being said i don’t argue that mesmer needs bringing down abit.

What are you even talking about here? Berserker’s stance is 8 seconds where conditions can’t be applied to you. What is this “followed by 5 seconds of little to no conditions”

Yes i’m aware of that, hence after the 8 second. (On the 9th second) you will have a very little amount of conditions on you. It will take time after your zerker stance ends before someone can actually build up their conditions to do damage.

Restistance allows them to apply but makes you immune. This means once your 8 seconds of immunity are up (Which is a long kitten time already) you will take the condition damage if you haven’t cleansed by the end of it.

It is a big nerf. Big enough to where warriors would stop using it because of how easily strippable boons are on a warrior.

Makes no sense, Boon stripping works exactly the same on all classes. It’s not like warriors get double boon stripped. That being said it could always PULSE.

Warrior: Pops zerker stance
Necro: I’ll be taking that!
Warrior: All these fears….Or thiefs saving their steal for when we pop zerker stance, so they can blind spam us to death.

So what your saying is this skill should be unique and have not a single counter in the entire game?

Whats the point in taking protection on attunement on my ele anyway, Thief will just steal it. Ele clearly needs a flat 33% reduction in damage upon attuning to earth that is not removable.

Every other melee class is punished for going into blinding powder, I’m not sure why your even using that as a con. Every class BUT warrior is already blind spammed by it.

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Posted by: Tao.1234

Tao.1234

-all-

Go as Warrior with melee build(not shoutbow) without Berserker’s stance into WvW or PvP(~50matches).

And you’ll see how badly Warrior performs vs condition builds.

Your comment on Staff necro is so silly that’s honestly………..not worthy the comment.

Warrior’s balance at this moment is in a place that if you’ll try meddling with utilities as in nerfing them, then Warrior from stable balanced position will go down the toilet.

The only builds you’ll see will be Shoutbows and hambows.

So, if it’s going to be like that, then I demand a class name change from Warrior to Shouter

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Posted by: TheLastNobody.8319

TheLastNobody.8319

Ah it’d be nice, but unfortunately it’d make condition builds, especially necro a little more viable. Can’t be having counterplay now though can we?

A knight in shining armor is a man who never had his metal truly tested.

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

Lifeblast can get diamond skin down most of the time. Along with our golem. Once it’s down it usually doesn’t get back up. Ontop of that they have less cc and overall damage.

I’m sorry, but you’re not getting a d/d Celestial ele down to 90% health with a purely condition based build. And if by some miracle you do, they merely need to go into water and heal up instantly. And this process will repeat itself, until you’re dead. Less CC they might have, but ele has more of everything else. Mesmers and Ele are on top.

You keep talking about having no counter, but power based damage IS the counter. Literally every class has a counter to zerker stance in the form of what armor they’re wearing. Condition builds are the ones it counters, albeit temporarily. And more players run power builds than condition builds.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

I’m seeing it from your point of view, because that’s the class you play.

I play all classes, For the second time telling you. Mesmer is infact the class i have the most playtime on.

There are many builds and classes that can faceroll a zerker stance warrior. The only builds that have a large issue with it are the ones that go purely condition damage…And that’s the consequence you pay for using a tanky condition spec. Even then, it’s not like you can’t leave for a whole 8 seconds until you’re able to damage them again. Flesh worm comes in very useful for this.

Yes so your 1 utility skill effectively shuts out a whole stat regardless of professions and you think thats balanced?

You’re saying things like “Punished” for using conditions. It seems you just want a power meta and thus anything discussed with you is like talking to a wall because you want power dominance not balance.

Well, mesmer is one of the classes that pretty much hard counters warrior. Even if you were to run full condition, they can just invis themselves until their stane is used.

This isn’t a discussion about mesmers. Mesmers hardcounter basically everything atm.

It gives them a full life bar. Pretty kitten good I’d say.

That was not the question. Ontop of that deathshroud is our mechanic, Doesnt give us a full life bar, Has to be built and has little to no damage for condition builds and highly telegraphed attacks for power.

It’s a necro’s job to remove boons and apply it to themselves. Berserker’s stance isn’t a boon. It’s a warrior specific skill that prevent taking condition damage for 8 seconds. So no, it isn’t their job to remove berserker’s stance. It’s got a 60 second cooldown that serves one purpose. To have a necro rip it from them with the click of a button. That would be real cool, right?

Hm, Your wrong. Necro doesn’t apply any of the enemys boons to itself, it purely removes them.

I understand that it’s not a boon however your example (Which you just repeated at the end of your own sentance) is saying it would be unfair because necro could corrupt it. Necro can corrupt everyones boons and everyones resistance. Why do warriors get a buff similiar to resistance (Only better) that you can’t remove. Surely you can see from a balance standpoint that having a non-removable buff stronger than a removable one is stupid.

Also as i’ve said multiple times, Counter matchups and it could even pulse. You seem to not want warrior to have any counters.

And this is why I feel you’re only looking at this through a monocle. Rampage can be traited to do roughly 250% attack damage, it decreases the damage you take by 25%, it doubles your HP pool, skills and traits you activate before using rampage transfer over to rampage once you use it…So many things make rampage an unstoppable force, and yet somehow berserker stance is what you’ve concluded to be overpowered. Sounds legit.

Maybe rampage is overpowered, This discussion isn’t primarily about rampage. As i keep telling you. The same thing can be achieved in any other weaponset.

The only way to keep a warrior off of you in a low mobility setup is to use CC and soft CC conditions. When you have stability and zerker stance there is no counter to that.

What I don’t get is why you even brought up rampage at all if Berserker Stance is what you have beef with. I already listed an easy fix to your dilemma with zerker stance rampage. Stances currently applied to you do not transfer over to rampage.

Problem solved.

No, It was an example. Similiar to how classes without boon removal have to run for close to 20 seconds from a warrior now should they be playing a condition spec. Rampage has counterplays as a skill. If someone uses rampage there is many ways to counter that.

Zerker stance does not. There is nothing you can do but run and hope he somehow untargets you.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

No, it doesn’t make them unstoppable. They’re very easy to deal with on anything that’s not purely condition damage.

Oh come on, lets not pretend you don’t know what i meant. You wouldn’t make an endure pain discussion thread and talk about how op it is against conditions.

We’re talking about condition builds V zerker stance and have been for the past however many posts. I have no idea why you decided to just change the discussion.

They have to rely on you being bad because all of their skills are highly telegraphed. Don’t dodge their earthshaker? Well, you deserve what comes next. 8 seconds isn’t even enough to contest a point. Pay attention to when they pop it, disengage, and finish them off after the stance wears off. Because they’re at a disadvantage without it.

They have more than 2 cc abilities and you only have 2 dodges. That being said your example only works for conquest. In stronghold where your forced to channel heroes, Should you ever be unfortunate enough to be playing condition necromancer you have no way to interrupt the warrior from channeling it at all. That zerker stance will cover the whole channel.

PvP is a team game, if your condition spec is having issues with a berserker stance warrior, then let one of your other teammates deal with them. ‘cause y’know, most classes have been running power specs…Where Berserker stance is far less useful.

I could always argue the same for zerker stance being turnt to resistance. In that if your struggle fighting necros then let someone else deal with them. Works both ways.

I’m in agreement that warrior is far from the best class currently,

I would argue its only just behind ele thief, mesmer and gaurd.

and berserker stance is a key to letting them deal with some of their counters. Warriors can’t stack a kitten ton of boons like some other classes, if zerker stance ever became a boon, it would be counter productive to use at all. So many classes could use it against them, while they wasted a skill on a long cooldown.

The only time it would ever be beneficial for someone to have resistance is if you was playing condition warrior. Other than that it’s probably good that they ripped it from you over the protection your teammate is giving you.

This applies for every boon in the game. Yet people still take them because boon stealing isn’t avaliable that much. Only mesmer and thief? can do it. Necro can corrupt and their limited in cooldowns.

Elemental attunement (Boon on attunement) is still picked up by nearly every ele. All them boons can be used against them.

I just think you’re completely out of touch with what needs nerfed, and what needs to be left alone.

Oh that’s okay then. If you disagree with someones opinion feel free to get all agressive about it. That’s the best way to go about the situation.

And more players run power builds than condition builds.

Oh that’s okay then, Lets just balanced based on popularity. Weaker traits and builds can stay weak and we’ll just buff the ones globally used. Best balance.

Chazwyne, Necromancer <3
Smallscale <3 Vabbi
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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable. If you play certain classes your as good as dead when he hits zerker stance.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Und thiz is why we do notz fight ze rampager !

Seriously,you get the hell out of his way when he pops it,same goes for lich what do u do vs a lich ? You either pop invulns/block him to reflect and gain as much distance as possible.Same applies to rampage,You Are Not Meant To Fight This 1on1,chances are you will drop,as it should be imo.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

Go as Warrior with melee build(not shoutbow) without Berserker’s stance into WvW or PvP(~50matches).

And you’ll see how badly Warrior performs vs condition builds.

“Not shoutbow”

You can’t just erase a spec. It’s there, It has heavy condition removal. You can’t just ignore it. It is part of your profession, Even if you dislike it’s playstyle.

That’s like me saying go and play engi (No HGH) and see how weak you are to conditions. If you purposely choose to ignore the specs that are strongest against conditions. Obviously the other ones will be weaker by comparison.

Chazwyne, Necromancer <3
Smallscale <3 Vabbi
The Original Dudes [to]

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

I would argue its only just behind ele thief, mesmer and gaurd.

So 5th best? Sounds pretty balanced. Even on the low end of the spectrum.

Oh come on, lets not pretend you don’t know what i meant. You wouldn’t make an endure pain discussion thread and talk about how op it is against conditions.

So is endure pain and Signet of Stone OP against power builds?

Also, shoutbow just doesn’t have the sustain to deal with this burst meta. Still good vs. conditions, but lacks damage and sustain against burst classes. That’s why everyone is running Greatsword now. They had to join the burst meta like everyone else. Except D/D ele’s, ‘cause they’re still ridiculously tanky and deal heavy damage with burn.

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Posted by: Caedmon.6798

Caedmon.6798

Comment was meant for Kaga,was a reply to him saying rampage is op and berserk not being the issue,somehow i replyd to yours instead,kitten happens.no need for capsing mate.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

So 5th best? Sounds pretty balanced. Even on the low end of the spectrum.

Well considering them 4 classes are considered viable and strong, I would say so yes.

The other 3 severaly lack in places.

So is endure pain and Signet of Stone OP against power builds?

I don’t know, Do they last 8 seconds and can they be chain cast with another ability which reduces all direct damage for another 6-7 seconds?

If so, i would say yes, quite possibly. nearly 20 seconds of immunity to direct damage while being able to attack is pretty overpowered.

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

If running is a valid strategy for rampage and lich, why is it not for zerker stance?

Where zerker stance only makes one build run from you. Rampage makes every class and build run from you. Why is this so hard to understand. Without zerker stance, rampage will still roll people. Warrior will be even more reliant rampage then ever.

I don’t know, Do they last 8 seconds and can they be chain cast with another ability which reduces all direct damage for another 6-7 seconds?
If so, i would say yes, quite possibly. nearly 20 seconds of immunity to direct damage while being able to attack is pretty overpowered.

Most warriors take defy pain for another 4 seconds. So they have 8 seconds of physical immunity. Two skills/traits though.

The resistant on healing signet..I would be happy if they got rid of that, if you’re going to use that as an additional excuse to nerf berserker stance. Healing signet heals for basically nothing when activated, so the resistance was there to make it more “viable” I would much prefer it to just heal for more when you activate it.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

If running is a valid strategy for rampage and lich, why is it not for zerker stance?

Where zerker stance only makes one build run from you. Rampage makes every class and build run from you. Why is this so hard to understand. Without zerker stance, rampage will still roll people. Warrior will be even more reliant rampage then ever.

Where did i say i run from rampage and lich? I don’t run from either because they both have counters. Rampage with it’s pulsing stability and necro have signet trait just results in the warrior repeatedly fearing himself.

both can just be countered by blind and lich can be countered by heavy cc.

Sure you might think rampage is strong, This thread is primarily about zerker stance. I would suggest making a new thread to discuss about rampage.

Chazwyne, Necromancer <3
Smallscale <3 Vabbi
The Original Dudes [to]

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

Where did i say i run from rampage and lich? I don’t run from either because they both have counters. Rampage with it’s pulsing stability and necro have signet trait just results in the warrior repeatedly fearing himself.

That’s not a counter. It pulses 2 stacks of stability every 3 seconds for 20 seconds. You don’t have even close to the amount of boonstrip/CC to stop a rampage warrior. Three auto attacks is enough to kill some classes. If they hit you with any of their CC you’re really done for. You obviously need to kite rampage to even consider surviving, and it lasts a full 20 seconds. With tons of CC thrown in. So why can’t you last 8 seconds against a berserker stance warrior and yet somehow you can last a full 20 against a rampage warrior?

Lich can just be countered by blind or heavy cc in short duration.

Solo? Nopenope. Sure, CC them, but they have far more HP than you and hit far harder than you. Maybe if you’re dealing with a lich that’s already hurt badly, but a fresh lich form with full HP? You’re not going to solo it.

Sure you might think rampage is strong, This thread is primarily about zerker stance. I would suggest making a new thread to discuss about rampage.

Well you talk about things needing counters, when rampage has far less counter than zerker stance. So it’s a valid argument.

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Posted by: x Charlie.4820

x Charlie.4820

So why isn’t it you can’t last 8 seconds when a warrior activated berserker stance?

Maybe because i’m unable to fear/chill/cripple or apply weakness to him?

Lich can just be countered by blind or heavy cc in short duration.

Solo? Nopenope. Sure, CC them, but they have far more HP than you and hit far harder than you. Maybe if you’re dealing with a lich that’s already hurt badly, but a fresh lich form with full HP? You’re not going to solo it.

No in that case i would just blind or root and stand behind it, depending on my class. Slick shoes works too.

You cant compare utility skills to elites anyway.

Well you talk about things needing counters, when zerker has far less counter than zerker stance. So it’s a valid argument.

Yes i agree, zerker stance has less counters than zerker stance.

Chazwyne, Necromancer <3
Smallscale <3 Vabbi
The Original Dudes [to]

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Posted by: Kagamiku.9731

Kagamiku.9731

Maybe because i’m unable to fear/chill/cripple or apply weakness to him?

While not completely immune, a rampage warrior is 66% immune.
Rampage warrior with weakness still hits really hard, and I know you cant’t apply it for the full duration. The same goes for chill and cripple. It’s a very brief solution to rampage. Not to mention most classes have hardly any access to fear/chill. That’s strictly a necro forte.

No in that case i would just blind or root and stand behind it, depending on my class. Slick shoes works too.

For 15 seconds? And slick shoes doesn’t really work as they have pulsing stability as well.

Yes i agree, zerker stance has less counters than zerker stance.

Yeah, you must have started replying 5 seconds after I posted.

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

That utility skill has already had it’s duration and adrenalin gain reduced and you can no longer use it outside of combat to gain adrenalin before you fight.

That’s a global thing, You don’t keep adrenaline outside of combat. I dont think it’s fair to use that as a con when all of your adrenaline gaining skills (Signet) have the same effect.

Wonder how people would like it if they removed an active skill like that and gave us a trait like “remove 1-3 conditions every 10seconds based on how much adrenalin you have”.

Well with the weaponswap trait alone you remove 3 conditions every 12 seconds/15 seconds without runes. That’s assuming you miss every burst skill and never get a cleanse from that.

That being said, You already have CI and nobody likes passive skills. (Yes i know CI requires you to land your skill but we can’t try to justify being rewarded for missing, All of necros weapon skill transfers require you to hit your skills)

Brawler’s Recovery and Cleansing Ire aren’t as great as they might sound on paper:

1. You’ll never hit a rate of 3 condies removed every 15secs (only with BR) in a real fight
2. A condition class will apply 10+ condition at least in the same amount of time
3. You will mostly use BR to remove blinds before you attempt to hit with your CI to remove 1-3 of the other 10 conditions on you.
4. Hitting that CI is hard when you are effected by 3 slowing conditions, combined with animation heavy adrenalin skills which can be blocked, dodged, blinked, blinded or just kited
5. Most warriors will tell you that stacking defensive cooldown like Berserker Stance, Endure Pain, Rampage will lead to a do or die situation, as in you are dead once they run out if you didn’t make something happen

I am against this passive GW2 gameplay or against complete hardcounters to anything.
That won’t change the fact that many of the most powerful conditions proc on crit or even hit.
Many of the defenses like protection, weakness, removal or aegis proc on hit, crit or on some % of your HP. (Yes, warriors have some of these as well.)

A change like that would just make it worse. I really hope they don’t continue to nerf active skills and introduce even more passive stuff.

(edited by Henry.5713)

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

you want to make it into resistance sure?

8 seconds base duration
4 pulses
2 seconds interval per pulse
6 adrenaline per pulse
2 seconds of resistance per pulse
40 seconds recharge

then we’re good.

other wise.
deal with it.

berserker stance has been working as intended since its introduction.

I could actually get behind something like that. Though I’m mostly against short duration pulsing. So I’d personally prefer:

9 seconds base duration
3 pulses
3 seconds interval per pulse
10 adrenaline per pulse
3 seconds of resistance per pulse
45 seconds recharge

Still, yeah I can get behind a reduced CD/higher uptime if it gets made into resistance and in some cases it would actually offer more use to warriors as they won’t take damage from condis till they can get to a place to cleanse.

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Posted by: Daishi.6027

Daishi.6027

Just because something counters a major damage source does not mean no counter play. Aslong as it is not a constant keeping one build or spec down in most cases is fair.

It’s like saying a block is imba because you cannot do damage outside of a few select attacks and condis.

While I admit it to be annoying which as a major utility better be otherwise it wouldn’t be worth slotting. A warrior can still be Stunned/LoSed/Kit ed/interrupted/bunked against, and various other options that are accessable for all classes.

If you are a squishy condi build and you didn’t either A- bait it out before applying Preassure or B actively play around it spacing your cooldowns to mitigate the mitigating effect. And just got rolled without doing very much damage… You need to rethink your strategy or perhaps build.

“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”

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Posted by: dday.9532

dday.9532

you want to make it into resistance sure?

8 seconds base duration
4 pulses
2 seconds interval per pulse
6 adrenaline per pulse
2 seconds of resistance per pulse
40 seconds recharge

then we’re good.

other wise.
deal with it.

berserker stance has been working as intended since its introduction.

I could actually get behind something like that. Though I’m mostly against short duration pulsing. So I’d personally prefer:

9 seconds base duration
3 pulses
3 seconds interval per pulse
10 adrenaline per pulse
3 seconds of resistance per pulse
45 seconds recharge

Still, yeah I can get behind a reduced CD/higher uptime if it gets made into resistance and in some cases it would actually offer more use to warriors as they won’t take damage from condis till they can get to a place to cleanse.

Pulsing resistance should be the last thing they do, because then it really has no counter play. Removing the boon would nothing because it would just reapply.

Let’s not forget that changing it to resistance would be a buff of sorts because it would make all current conditions inactive ( which it currently does not )

So either give it a buff and add counter play, or leave it as is, but do not suggest the extreme op idea of pulsing resistance… we have enough condition removal through shouts, brawlers recovery, cleansing ire, and quick breathing

And I am a warrior main btw

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Posted by: JaeleCt.3967

JaeleCt.3967

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

hi! thieves condition removal would like a word.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

I think it should apply Resistance instead of functioning as it currently does. It adds counterplay, interacts with boon duration, and also makes Warriors immune to currently present conditions on their bar. It’s win-win-win across the board.

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Posted by: Mea.8967

Mea.8967

I think it should apply Resistance instead of functioning as it currently does. It adds counterplay, interacts with boon duration, and also makes Warriors immune to currently present conditions on their bar. It’s win-win-win across the board.

I’m actually surprised that this wasn’t changed when resistance was added to the game.

I remember reading about resistance and thinking “Oh, so they can use this instead of Berserker stance’s weird mechanic.”

ETA: grammar is hard.

I love lamp.

(edited by Mea.8967)

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

Pulsing resistance should be the last thing they do, because then it really has no counter play. Removing the boon would nothing because it would just reapply.

Let’s not forget that changing it to resistance would be a buff of sorts because it would make all current conditions inactive ( which it currently does not )

So either give it a buff and add counter play, or leave it as is, but do not suggest the extreme op idea of pulsing resistance… we have enough condition removal through shouts, brawlers recovery, cleansing ire, and quick breathing

And I am a warrior main btw

Yes, pulsing resistance has no counter play just like…oh wait the current way it works which offers 0 counter play and less than making it resistance. Making it a reasonable length boon pulse, 3-4s, means removing it is punishing but at the same time you can’t completely counter it with a single boon rip/convert.

I guess you also missed the reduced cool down part too.

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Posted by: sephiroth.4217

sephiroth.4217

It’s been said way too many times now in this thread….

Any power skills IS direct counter to zerker stance. It counters condition builds for a measly 8 seconds….

I mostly play for the new Free-For-All arena in PvP lobby.
….. And Elementalist.

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Posted by: Kharr.5746

Kharr.5746

Is the problem berserker stance or rampage? Berserker stance does nothing vs physical damage and does not remove conditions that are already applied on the warrior. It also lasts quite a short time.

Also, resistance is not a valid mechanic yet. The majority of condi classes have PASSIVE BOON REMOVAL which means if berserker stance were to apply a boon instead, it would be 100% useless since all the currently passive boon removal skills would strip it instantly. A 60 second cooldown skill would be negated by someone auto attacking/spamming normal attacks. /lulz.

The whole boon system needs to be reworked (both application and removal) before resistance is a real game mechanic. Currently boon removal is balanced around spammable boons like might, fury, swiftness, protection, so it’s okay to have it be passively spammed on condi builds.

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Posted by: Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

zerker stance is fine and is needed, zerker stance + rampage needs to go though…. just make it exclusive

zerker stance + rampage was fine before stab changes, you could strip/corrupt stab and actually CC war…. but now only counterplay to that combo is to run away which is by all means is not healthy and i doubt wars want same fate as turret engis (because running away was also only about viable tactic vs them)

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Posted by: Shala.8352

Shala.8352

can you remove distortion from mesmer? no. Why should be able to remove berserker stance (it last 8 seconds and 60 seconds cd), difference between berserker stance and distortion? distortion is a berserker stance + endure pain, is more viable (means you will have more seconds that distortion is up than berserker stance in a 60 second cicle) and, to say it all, if you cant survive those 8 seconds with CC spam or by doing damage, i just can tell you delete your necro cuz you cant play it. Berserker stance should be the warrior counter to condi players, but in fact condi players can still easy win against warrior with this utility.

Talking about Cleansing Ire, i’ve said it in all the possible threads, i would totaly prefer ANY grand master trait from ANY other class than this worst fake condi counter.

Talking about warrior, is a melee class means he is much more susceptible to condi ground spam like wells cuz he has to get on the melee range, and compared to others class that have a much better immediate condi cleanse mechanics (like mesmers and eles, and even ranger LOL with his 10cd signet autoremoving condi without the need to hit, and all these classes are playing in the safety of a ranged place) warrior is absolutely the easiest class to kill with conditions.

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

It’s serious deja vu right now.

Think we had this talk way back when Berserker Stance got changed, and apparently people eventually grew out of complaining about it either because it was still imbalanced or perhaps they found ways around it.

Either way, should be amusing to read.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Tao.1234

Tao.1234

I think it should apply Resistance instead of functioning as it currently does. It adds counterplay, interacts with boon duration, and also makes Warriors immune to currently present conditions on their bar. It’s win-win-win across the board.

Counterplay?

Now you succeed in convincing me that you do not play Warrior in PvP.

Suspended for telling Like it is.
Anet gave birth to Gw2 – Anet killed Gw2.
Murican law 2015.

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Posted by: JaeleCt.3967

JaeleCt.3967

I think it should apply Resistance instead of functioning as it currently does. It adds counterplay, interacts with boon duration, and also makes Warriors immune to currently present conditions on their bar. It’s win-win-win across the board.

Counterplay?

Now you succeed in convincing me that you do not play Warrior in PvP.

no one plays the classes they kitten about. they just complain incessantly.

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Posted by: YuiRS.8129

YuiRS.8129

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

hi! thieves condition removal would like a word.

Shadow’s Embrace and Ranger’s stolen thing are really good.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

hi! thieves condition removal would like a word.

Shadow’s Embrace and Ranger’s stolen thing are really good.

Shadow’s Embrace got nerfed hard. It’s only damaging conditions now and the second kinda needs a ranger to be present which speaks for itself.

I also heard in stealth procs now only work after 3s of stealth not as soon as you enter but haven’t tested it as I’m having fun on other classes atm before everything fun gets nerfed into the mediocrity mud.

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Posted by: Tao.1234

Tao.1234

No counterplay to berserkers stance —-> Physical damage.

berserker’s stance is perfectly fine. Rampage is the problem.

I think the opposite, Rampage is actually somewhat useful now. It’s zerker stance that makes it unstoppable.

I’m not sure why everyone gets resistance but warrior is an exception to the rule.

Because after Adrenaline changes, Warrior has no viable Condition removal and Berserker Stance fills that gap which temporarily gives immunity to all conditions.

Comparing it other classes, Warrior is the most vulnerable to damage conditions.

hi! thieves condition removal would like a word.

Shadow’s Embrace and Ranger’s stolen thing are really good.

Shadow’s Embrace got nerfed hard. It’s only damaging conditions now and the second kinda needs a ranger to be present which speaks for itself.

I also heard in stealth procs now only work after 3s of stealth not as soon as you enter but haven’t tested it as I’m having fun on other classes atm before everything fun gets nerfed into the mediocrity mud.

Taking into account amount of ways for Thief to enter Stealth, and “cooldown” for overall Stealth system, it still places Thief as No.2 class with Condition Removal ability.
Considering that Necromancer is No.1 of course.

Suspended for telling Like it is.
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