Guild Wars 2

No Man.4180:

We shouldn’t just Delete Reapers… having said that though:
The point is that Reapers attacks, shroud and weapon swap cause poison and chill passively. if those were Active skills i wouldn’t mind but they are not.
Its not about skill at that point.
further more, the lack of CC affects on the class IS annoying. Maybe Anet should review CC mechanics in earnest instead of just making them superfluous towards a specific class to sell HOT.
An lastly i see A LOT of contrived points premised around primed language to elicit an emotional response instead of pursuing the conversation rationally. Name calling and trolling proves to me that the player base exploiting these effects are aware of their power and don’t want to surrender their one hit I WIN button.

Proven that the only Passive Poison application comes from Sigils/Runes. Also proven that Chill comes from active play.

No Man.4180:

Sigmoid.7082:

“The point is that Reapers attacks, shroud and weapon swap cause poison and chill passively. if those were Active skills i wouldn’t mind but they are not.”
Sounds like you are moaning about sigils rather than the class. 99% of application is active.

Uh there is no poison sigil in pvp mate… stop using straw man attacks =/

You getting proven wrong, and then you later call “straw man” on them. Proof that you are using knowledge of logic in place of in-game knowledge.

No Man.4180:

Deathly chill, bitter chill, toxic chill, chilling nova, shivers of dread, cold shoulder and chilling darkness all cause chill…. not sure why everyone is using strawman to misconstrue the slew of chill effects available to reaper.

Not only is this wrong, you made up a skill/trait. This is fantastic. Everyone knows that Reaper has an abundance of Chill, but what does this have to do with your previous arguments? Previously you were talking about Stability and passive Chill/Poison.

No Man.4180:

Sigmoid.7082:

No Man.4180:

Deathly chill, bitter chill, toxic chill, chilling nova, shivers of dread, cold shoulder and chilling darkness all cause chill…. not sure why everyone is using strawman to misconstrue the slew of chill effects available to reaper.

• Deathly chill is the chill damage trait
• Bitter chill causes vulnerability when you cause chill
• Toxic chill….isnt even a thing?
• Chilling nova requires the target already be chilled and you to crit before it will work. Its hardly passive since you need to chill to continue chilling as well as either a trait, stat or sigil investment to crit.
• Shivers of dread means you have to fear your target, again unless you use a rune its all active play since all fear application is from active skills.
• Cold shoulder doesnt cause chill at all..it makes it last longer, again you need to apply chill to see any benefit same as chilling nova.
• Chilling dark means you have to blind someone. Again all blinds come from active skills.

There is no “passive” application. You’re saying that because you can trait something else you do to cause chill the chill is passive but by definition thats not passive at all because you still have to do something to get the chill just more things cause it.

How very confusing. Passive is more like adaptive armour or guardian virtues passive effects, signets, etc etc

i never said all of those were passive…. yet ANOTHER straw man to misconstrue what was stated.

i said “they all cause chill” which, you’re right, some of those don’t but rather buff chill.

try to stay off the straw man please. this is a discussion of interest not hate.

" The point is that Reapers attacks, shroud and weapon swap cause poison and chill passively. if those were Active skills i wouldn’t mind but they are not.
Its not about skill at that point. "

If these are active skills, then by your own admission, you wouldn’t mind them.

Do everyone a favor and either learn the game or be quiet so actual balance discussions can be done.

Sigmoid.7082:

No Man.4180:

Sigmoid.7082:

No Man.4180:

Deathly chill, bitter chill, toxic chill, chilling nova, shivers of dread, cold shoulder and chilling darkness all cause chill…. not sure why everyone is using strawman to misconstrue the slew of chill effects available to reaper.

• Deathly chill is the chill damage trait
• Bitter chill causes vulnerability when you cause chill
• Toxic chill….isnt even a thing?
• Chilling nova requires the target already be chilled and you to crit before it will work. Its hardly passive since you need to chill to continue chilling as well as either a trait, stat or sigil investment to crit.
• Shivers of dread means you have to fear your target, again unless you use a rune its all active play since all fear application is from active skills.
• Cold shoulder doesnt cause chill at all..it makes it last longer, again you need to apply chill to see any benefit same as chilling nova.
• Chilling dark means you have to blind someone. Again all blinds come from active skills.

There is no “passive” application. You’re saying that because you can trait something else you do to cause chill the chill is passive but by definition thats not passive at all because you still have to do something to get the chill just more things cause it.

How very confusing. Passive is more like adaptive armour or guardian virtues passive effects, signets, etc etc

i never said all of those were passive…. yet ANOTHER straw man to misconstrue what was stated.

i said “they all cause chill” which, you’re right, some of those don’t but rather buff chill.

try to stay off the straw man please. this is a discussion of interest not hate.

Again im just pointing out where you are wrong in your argumrnt stating that a) skills cause chill when they dont and b) they are passive when they arent. Your point was they cause it passively, which has been proven wrong, but the more i read your posts its chill you have a problem with. Construct your argument better. i.e chill is strong etc etc.

Again i didn’t say all of them were passive.
still using ad hominem statements and contrived straw-man attacks to misconstrue my arguments. i never said they where all passive. they weren’t proven wrong mate.
stop trying to bully the argument.

as far as your last point i have to agree its chill i have a problem with but its the reapers passive that increases the effectiveness and adds damage to chill which was my ACTUAL point. its cool though man you’re obviously against balance and want to troll.

No Man.4180:

Deathly chill, bitter chill, toxic chill, chilling nova, shivers of dread, cold shoulder and chilling darkness all cause chill…. not sure why everyone is using strawman to misconstrue the slew of chill effects available to reaper.

• Deathly chill is the chill damage trait
• Bitter chill causes vulnerability when you cause chill
• Toxic chill….isnt even a thing?
• Chilling nova requires the target already be chilled and you to crit before it will work. Its hardly passive since you need to chill to continue chilling as well as either a trait, stat or sigil investment to crit.
• Shivers of dread means you have to fear your target, again unless you use a rune its all active play since all fear application is from active skills.
• Cold shoulder doesnt cause chill at all..it makes it last longer, again you need to apply chill to see any benefit same as chilling nova.
• Chilling dark means you have to blind someone. Again all blinds come from active skills.

There is no “passive” application. You’re saying that because you can trait something else you do to cause chill the chill is passive but by definition thats not passive at all because you still have to do something to get the chill just more things cause it.

How very confusing. Passive is more like adaptive armour or guardian virtues passive effects, signets, etc etc[/quote]

i never said all of those were passive…. yet ANOTHER straw man to misconstrue what was stated.

i said “they all cause chill” which, you’re right, some of those don’t but rather buff chill.

try to stay off the straw man please. this is a discussion of interest not hate.[/quote]

" The point is that Reapers attacks, shroud and weapon swap cause poison and chill passively. if those were Active skills i wouldn’t mind but they are not.
Its not about skill at that point. "

If these are active skills, then by your own admission, you wouldn’t mind them.

Do everyone a favor and either learn the game or be quiet so actual balance discussions can be done. [/quote]

Another straw-man statement taken out of context of the prior conversations when they were talking about sigil involvement.
my point was that reapers passive adds damage to chill.
further more LOS chill effects doing damage is another point of contention, i stated they should be skill shots (ie Aimed or plotted).

Last point “Do everyone a favor and either learn the game or be quiet so actual balance discussions can be done.” dude gtfo. this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. the whole point of this forum is to do exactly this…discuss… but that is obviously beyond your scope of cognition. do try to participate instead of making contrived statements about someones pliability within the game.
We JUST made a break through targeting chill and the reaper passive adding damage as the major point of contention… that is the intent a balance discussion, identifying the problem. we’ve moved forward.

Try to help not hinder mate.

so because you can’t adapt to the well needed NECRO fixes, you want it deleted, cause that’s logic

Kotte.2460:

so because you can’t adapt to the well needed NECRO fixes, you want it deleted, cause that’s logic

i said deleting reaper wasn’t the answer… like at all… i never said that OP did.

Regardless of who said it, its not logic, but since we are asking to delete classes, can all classes be deleted except thief, that way they would be more viable.

No Man.4180:

No Man.4180:

Deathly chill, bitter chill, toxic chill, chilling nova, shivers of dread, cold shoulder and chilling darkness all cause chill…. not sure why everyone is using strawman to misconstrue the slew of chill effects available to reaper.

• Deathly chill is the chill damage trait
• Bitter chill causes vulnerability when you cause chill
• Toxic chill….isnt even a thing?
• Chilling nova requires the target already be chilled and you to crit before it will work. Its hardly passive since you need to chill to continue chilling as well as either a trait, stat or sigil investment to crit.
• Shivers of dread means you have to fear your target, again unless you use a rune its all active play since all fear application is from active skills.
• Cold shoulder doesnt cause chill at all..it makes it last longer, again you need to apply chill to see any benefit same as chilling nova.
• Chilling dark means you have to blind someone. Again all blinds come from active skills.

There is no “passive” application. You’re saying that because you can trait something else you do to cause chill the chill is passive but by definition thats not passive at all because you still have to do something to get the chill just more things cause it.

How very confusing. Passive is more like adaptive armour or guardian virtues passive effects, signets, etc etc

i never said all of those were passive…. yet ANOTHER straw man to misconstrue what was stated.

i said “they all cause chill” which, you’re right, some of those don’t but rather buff chill.

try to stay off the straw man please. this is a discussion of interest not hate.[/quote]

" The point is that Reapers attacks, shroud and weapon swap cause poison and chill passively. if those were Active skills i wouldn’t mind but they are not.
Its not about skill at that point. "

If these are active skills, then by your own admission, you wouldn’t mind them.

Do everyone a favor and either learn the game or be quiet so actual balance discussions can be done. [/quote]

Another straw-man statement taken out of context of the prior conversations when they were talking about sigil involvement.
my point was that reapers passive adds damage to chill.
further more LOS chill effects doing damage is another point of contention, i stated they should be skill shots (ie Aimed or plotted).

Last point “Do everyone a favor and either learn the game or be quiet so actual balance discussions can be done.” dude gtfo. this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. the whole point of this forum is to do exactly this…discuss… but that is obviously beyond your scope of cognition. do try to participate instead of making contrived statements about someones pliability within the game.
We JUST made a break through targeting chill and the reaper passive adding damage as the major point of contention… that is the intent a balance discussion, identifying the problem. we’ve moved forward.

Try to help not hinder mate.[/quote]

You are beyond reason.

You know mate, I don’t usually like to get into arguments but please stop using words like ad hominem and straw-man.

ad hominem is a logical fallacy where the person arguing attacks the person directly which he never did. He refuted your reasoning and did not mention anything personal about you.

straw man on the other hand is a fallacy where the person misrepresents a person’s position in order to make an easier argument which if you look back at Sigmond’s post, he never really did. You made the point that reapers cause chills and poison passively in your original post. He pointed out that is not exactly the case and gave several examples of common ways for Reaper to apply chill. This is not a straw man fallacy.

Please stop using these words just because you can, it’s not helping your case.

Kotte.2460:

Regardless of who said it, its not logic, but since we are asking to delete classes, can all classes be deleted except thief, that way they would be more viable.

non sequitur response.

we’re talking about reaper then moved to chill now talking about the passives affecting chill.

also i don’t think any class should be deleted and whole heatedly disagree with you and the OP about deleting anything.

You realise even if it’s a passive trait that lets chill do damage you have to land an active skill to apply the chill in the first place…

Also stop filling your post with pointless rambling about straw man and ad hominem, man up and present your point. Stop hiding behind fancy terms if you have an opinion with any valid substance behind it.

Warscythes.9307:

You know mate, I don’t usually like to get into arguments but please stop using words like ad hominem and straw-man.

ad hominem is a logical fallacy where the person arguing attacks the person directly which he never did. He refuted your reasoning and did not mention anything personal about you.

straw man on the other hand is a fallacy where the person misrepresents a person’s position in order to make an easier argument which if you look back at Sigmond’s post, he never really did. You made the point that reapers cause chills and poison passively in your original post. He pointed out that is not exactly the case and gave several examples of common ways for Reaper to apply chill. This is not a straw man fallacy.

Please stop using these words just because you can, it’s not helping your case.

“Do everyone a favor and either learn the game " that is ad hominem. =/

but that’s not the point of this post. we’re discussing OP stating to “delete reaper” which i disagreed with and tried to explore the point of contention.

clearly you don’t see my sarcasm

No Man.4180:

Stuff

Hahaha. Like I said, go learn the game a bit and come back. I really would like you to have an actual discussion, maybe you can help my point that Chill damage needs to be nerfed.

And for those curious, I base this off of the culminated damage over the duration of a fight, and not off of damage per tick. A counterargument I’ve heard is that it is necessary to be effective due to how many classes have Chill reduction, but those traits come from Elites, which (imo) leads to a discussion on power creep.

My god, I haven’t seen something like this in a while.

@No Man, word of advice when trying to present something on the internet. I don’t know if you just learned these terms or what, but never use them on the internet. It makes you sound like a total neckbeard EVEN IF you are using them correctly, which you are not. Is like trying to use vocabulary in every sentence you write just because you can. Please stop it, is actually pretty obnoxious.

As for the topic, I think we got pretty off the tracks here lol. I am out.

PS: To the "“Do everyone a favor and either learn the game " that is ad hominem. =/"

Not really, it would be if he used it as the basis for his argument, for example if he said your argument is bad because you are bad, then it would be ad hominem, which again he did not. He refuted you before he gave that statement.

That is just an insult mate, that’s it. Stop trying to use these words if you are not sure, in fact don’t use them at all.

Zetsumei.4975:

You realise even if it’s a passive trait that lets chill do damage you have to land an active skill to apply the chill in the first place…

Also stop filling your post with pointless rambling about straw man and ad hominem, man up and present your point. Stop hiding behind fancy terms if you have an opinion with any valid substance behind it.

so i see your point and would offer the prior posts misrepresent the issue of OP stating to delete reaper, where as i was trying to identify the point of contention which is the passive that adds damage to chill and the LOS chill skills. trying to offer a solution into making them skill shots (of all i think only two could be considered skill shots).

Warscythes.9307:

My god, I haven’t seen something like this in a while.

@No Man, word of advice when trying to present something on the internet. I don’t know if you just learned these terms or what, but never use them on the internet. It makes you sound like a total neckbeard EVEN IF you are using them correctly, which you are not. Is like trying to use vocabulary in every sentence you write just because you can. Please stop it, is actually pretty obnoxious.

As for the topic, I think we got pretty off the tracks here lol. I am out.

fair point. ill try to filter more.

I argued that Chill is perhaps the most counterable condition in the game, besides probably Fear. It looks like 7 classes have a trait that can reduce its duration by 33%. A few classes have abilities that remove Chilled specifically. Chilled can be removed with regular old condi removal, which is often prevalent in team fights and can be specced for as well. Additionally, there are two rune options which reduce condi duration by 20% (Hoelbrak) and 25% (Melandru).

All of that is ignoring the fact that you can dodge the Chilled application as well, as it is often fairly obvious in its animation (GS #5, Focus #5, Staff #5 when traited, RS #5, RS #2 when traited, Chilled to the Bone, Spectral Grasp). Staff #3 might be the most difficult version of Chill to dodge.

So given the plethora of ways to counter the Chilled condition, is it really OP? They might tune the damage, but I’m not sure. You can’t even stack it to burst with Chilled. It’s just another “slow demise” condition added into the Necromancer’s repertoire, which is part of the class’s design.

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

Stuff

Hahaha. Like I said, go learn the game a bit and come back. I really would like you to have an actual discussion, maybe you can help my point that Chill damage needs to be nerfed.

And for those curious, I base this off of the culminated damage over the duration of a fight, and not off of damage per tick. A counterargument I’ve heard is that it is necessary to be effective due to how many classes have Chill reduction, but those traits come from Elites, which (imo) leads to a discussion on power creep.

First sentence, really mate? subjective =/
Second sentence YUS! lets discuss chill seriously.

second paragraph yes! the reaper build seems to try and answer movement impairing duration reduction, it just does so in an intrusive manor that mitigates a lot of original skill sets and their subsequent builds. and i totally agree that it leads to power creep.

It’s posts like these that is the reason the devs don’t listen to us.

Rogue Potato.4723:

It’s posts like these that is the reason the devs don’t listen to us.

^ yeah i wouldn’t read that post either if i were a dev :P

Cogbyrn.7283:

I argued that Chill is perhaps the most counterable condition in the game, besides probably Fear. It looks like 7 classes have a trait that can reduce its duration by 33%. A few classes have abilities that remove Chilled specifically. Chilled can be removed with regular old condi removal, which is often prevalent in team fights and can be specced for as well. Additionally, there are two rune options which reduce condi duration by 20% (Hoelbrak) and 25% (Melandru).

All of that is ignoring the fact that you can dodge the Chilled application as well, as it is often fairly obvious in its animation (GS #5, Focus #5, Staff #5 when traited, RS #5, RS #2 when traited, Chilled to the Bone, Spectral Grasp). Staff #3 might be the most difficult version of Chill to dodge.

So given the plethora of ways to counter the Chilled condition, is it really OP? They might tune the damage, but I’m not sure. You can’t even stack it to burst with Chilled. It’s just another “slow demise” condition added into the Necromancer’s repertoire, which is part of the class’s design.

Can you tell me which class actually takes any of those traits, only one is Chronomancer guaranteed with its minor that no one has mentioned and Daredevil with the mobility dodge being nearly immune to it, maybe Elementalist. Warriors are better off taking http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_Master . Engineers require the Inventions line which is only good for bunkers. Tempest needs either http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imbued_Melodies or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Bastion . Thief one is in Acrobatics and Daredevil gives a better one. Reaper has one but why would any of you use it over shout recharge or a nice power damage giving more chill. No Druids going to take it over http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Verdant_Etching . Either way it’s only 33% duration and it’s easy to stack up.

If a class chooses not to take it, then they are choosing to be susceptible to a chill-based build. It means that their build has a weakness in it, and a chill-based Reaper is able to exploit that hole to pressure the class.

Are you saying they should remove mechanics that exploit holes in builds for various classes, because those builds should feel nice and safe against everything?

I don’t really know what you’re saying. “Only 33%”? That’s like saying Prot is “only 33% damage reduction”, so it isn’t really that good of a boon.

I use Relentless Pursuit and Melandru runes on my Soldier Necro build right now. Chill basically just rolls right off, especially if I’m in Shroud. I built this way because Chilled hitting my cooldowns really puts a damper on the cadence of a fight for me, and I would rather play through other things (like having an increased Shout cooldown that I can anticipate) than worrying as much about Chilled, especially with the ability to be kited as a Reaper. Cripple and Immobilize also basically evaporate the moment they hit me.

EDIT – Fixed a silly ‘kitten’ overwrite, and I’m a big dumb and forgot Prot is actually 33%, not just 30% reduction.

EDIT 2 – My clarity was poor in one part.

Cogbyrn.7283:

If a class chooses not to take it, then they are choosing to be susceptible to a chill-based build. It means that their build has kitten in it, and a chill-based Reaper is able to exploit that hole to pressure the class.

Are you saying they should remove mechanics that exploit holes in builds for various classes, because those builds should feel nice and safe against everything?

I don’t really know what you’re saying. “Only 33%”? That’s like saying Prot is “only 30% damage reduction”, so it isn’t really that good of a boon.

I use Relentless Pursuit and Melandru runes on my Soldier Necro build right now. In Reaper, chill basically just rolls right off, especially if I’m in Shroud. I built this way because Chilled hitting my cooldowns really puts a damper on the cadence of a fight for me, and I would rather play through other things (like having an increased Shout cooldown that I can anticipate) than worrying as much about Chilled, especially with the ability to be kited as a Reaper. Cripple and Immobilize also basically evaporate the moment they hit me.

It’s only 33% if the chill is removed by time limit and not by condition removal.

glaphen.5230:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If a class chooses not to take it, then they are choosing to be susceptible to a chill-based build. It means that their build has kitten in it, and a chill-based Reaper is able to exploit that hole to pressure the class.

Are you saying they should remove mechanics that exploit holes in builds for various classes, because those builds should feel nice and safe against everything?

I don’t really know what you’re saying. “Only 33%”? That’s like saying Prot is “only 30% damage reduction”, so it isn’t really that good of a boon.

I use Relentless Pursuit and Melandru runes on my Soldier Necro build right now. In Reaper, chill basically just rolls right off, especially if I’m in Shroud. I built this way because Chilled hitting my cooldowns really puts a damper on the cadence of a fight for me, and I would rather play through other things (like having an increased Shout cooldown that I can anticipate) than worrying as much about Chilled, especially with the ability to be kited as a Reaper. Cripple and Immobilize also basically evaporate the moment they hit me.

It’s only 33% if the chill is removed by time limit and not by condition removal.

Right. You’re mitigating the risk of Chill going the distance.

And if Chill is being regularly cleared by condition removal, then it isn’t really a problem is it?

Cogbyrn.7283:

glaphen.5230:

Cogbyrn.7283:

If a class chooses not to take it, then they are choosing to be susceptible to a chill-based build. It means that their build has kitten in it, and a chill-based Reaper is able to exploit that hole to pressure the class.

Are you saying they should remove mechanics that exploit holes in builds for various classes, because those builds should feel nice and safe against everything?

I don’t really know what you’re saying. “Only 33%”? That’s like saying Prot is “only 30% damage reduction”, so it isn’t really that good of a boon.

I use Relentless Pursuit and Melandru runes on my Soldier Necro build right now. In Reaper, chill basically just rolls right off, especially if I’m in Shroud. I built this way because Chilled hitting my cooldowns really puts a damper on the cadence of a fight for me, and I would rather play through other things (like having an increased Shout cooldown that I can anticipate) than worrying as much about Chilled, especially with the ability to be kited as a Reaper. Cripple and Immobilize also basically evaporate the moment they hit me.

It’s only 33% if the chill is removed by time limit and not by condition removal.

Right. You’re mitigating the risk of Chill going the distance.

And if Chill is being regularly cleared by condition removal, then it isn’t really a problem is it?

33% damage for one condition out of many and easily reapplied by Reapers .

glaphen.5230:

Cogbyrn.7283:

I argued that Chill is perhaps the most counterable condition in the game, besides probably Fear. It looks like 7 classes have a trait that can reduce its duration by 33%. A few classes have abilities that remove Chilled specifically. Chilled can be removed with regular old condi removal, which is often prevalent in team fights and can be specced for as well. Additionally, there are two rune options which reduce condi duration by 20% (Hoelbrak) and 25% (Melandru).

All of that is ignoring the fact that you can dodge the Chilled application as well, as it is often fairly obvious in its animation (GS #5, Focus #5, Staff #5 when traited, RS #5, RS #2 when traited, Chilled to the Bone, Spectral Grasp). Staff #3 might be the most difficult version of Chill to dodge.

So given the plethora of ways to counter the Chilled condition, is it really OP? They might tune the damage, but I’m not sure. You can’t even stack it to burst with Chilled. It’s just another “slow demise” condition added into the Necromancer’s repertoire, which is part of the class’s design.

Can you tell me which class actually takes any of those traits, only one is Chronomancer guaranteed with its minor that no one has mentioned and Daredevil with the mobility dodge being nearly immune to it, maybe Elementalist. Warriors are better off taking http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_Master . Engineers require the Inventions line which is only good for bunkers. Tempest needs either http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Imbued_Melodies or http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elemental_Bastion . Thief one is in Acrobatics and Daredevil gives a better one. Reaper has one but why would any of you use it over shout recharge or a nice power damage giving more chill. No Druids going to take it over http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Verdant_Etching . Either way it’s only 33% duration and it’s easy to stack up.

Unless Reaper becomes the CeleDDele of pre-HoT there is just little reason to trait for Chill. And even at that, how many non-Elite Specs are there that can reduce Chill duration more than Reaper increases Chill duration? Chill application on Reaper was designed around constant, low duration application.

I think it presents a problem when in a 20 second fight, Chill is the largest contributor to death in just damage (at a rate of 900 damage/second), that doesn’t even include how much of an impact it would have in a longer fight with the cooldown increase and movement impairment… you know, the previous primary reason for applying Chill.

No Man.4180:

Warscythes.9307:

You know mate, I don’t usually like to get into arguments but please stop using words like ad hominem and straw-man.

ad hominem is a logical fallacy where the person arguing attacks the person directly which he never did. He refuted your reasoning and did not mention anything personal about you.

straw man on the other hand is a fallacy where the person misrepresents a person’s position in order to make an easier argument which if you look back at Sigmond’s post, he never really did. You made the point that reapers cause chills and poison passively in your original post. He pointed out that is not exactly the case and gave several examples of common ways for Reaper to apply chill. This is not a straw man fallacy.

Please stop using these words just because you can, it’s not helping your case.

“Do everyone a favor and either learn the game " that is ad hominem. =/

but that’s not the point of this post. we’re discussing OP stating to “delete reaper” which i disagreed with and tried to explore the point of contention.

People really don’t know what ad hominem is. It is only ad hominem if you don’t make any real claims against someones argument and insult them as your argument. If you address someones points and also attack their background, experience, etc that is not ad hominem.

Ad hominem is the difference between:
“you’re an idiot”
and
“you’re an idiot because”

Reapers Two handed sword also applies chill on third attack; so avoiding chill altogether can not be maintained unless you’re daredevil and even then only at a cycle of 12 and reaper has two health bars.
But beyond chill there is also the matter of the CC immensities.
i don’t think chill build should stack with a CC immunity as it adds a devastating synergy.

zapv.8051:

No Man.4180:

Warscythes.9307:

You know mate, I don’t usually like to get into arguments but please stop using words like ad hominem and straw-man.

ad hominem is a logical fallacy where the person arguing attacks the person directly which he never did. He refuted your reasoning and did not mention anything personal about you.

straw man on the other hand is a fallacy where the person misrepresents a person’s position in order to make an easier argument which if you look back at Sigmond’s post, he never really did. You made the point that reapers cause chills and poison passively in your original post. He pointed out that is not exactly the case and gave several examples of common ways for Reaper to apply chill. This is not a straw man fallacy.

Please stop using these words just because you can, it’s not helping your case.

“Do everyone a favor and either learn the game " that is ad hominem. =/

but that’s not the point of this post. we’re discussing OP stating to “delete reaper” which i disagreed with and tried to explore the point of contention.

People really don’t know what ad hominem is. It is only ad hominem if you don’t make any real claims against someones argument and insult them as your argument. If you address someones points and also attack their background, experience, etc that is not ad hominem.

Ad hominem is the difference between:
“you’re an idiot”
and
“you’re an idiot because”

I’m not sure how that impacts the current point of Chill effects.

stop derailing.

so any ways, not only chill damage coupled with CC immensities, but there is also the Life force health bar separated from their main health bar. all three make any squishy think twice about even bothering to engage a class designed to sell HOT.

No Man.4180:

Reapers Two handed sword also applies chill on third attack; so avoiding chill altogether can not be maintained unless you’re daredevil and even then only at a cycle of 12 and reaper has two health bars.
But beyond chill there is also the matter of the CC immensities.
i don’t think chill build should stack with a CC immunity as it adds a devastating synergy.

So a class that can apply chill shouldn’t have stab? I’m down for that I’m used to not having stab. Hopefully the other classes are….

Reduce the number of passive chills a reaper has and it will be okay. Start by making sigil of ice activate on crit, not just hit.

No Man.4180:

Reapers Two handed sword also applies chill on third attack;

Well a good thing then is that most reaper have realized that gs currently is subpar in pvp and dont even run it.

No Man.4180:

zapv.8051:

No Man.4180:

Warscythes.9307:

You know mate, I don’t usually like to get into arguments but please stop using words like ad hominem and straw-man.

ad hominem is a logical fallacy where the person arguing attacks the person directly which he never did. He refuted your reasoning and did not mention anything personal about you.

straw man on the other hand is a fallacy where the person misrepresents a person’s position in order to make an easier argument which if you look back at Sigmond’s post, he never really did. You made the point that reapers cause chills and poison passively in your original post. He pointed out that is not exactly the case and gave several examples of common ways for Reaper to apply chill. This is not a straw man fallacy.

Please stop using these words just because you can, it’s not helping your case.

“Do everyone a favor and either learn the game " that is ad hominem. =/

but that’s not the point of this post. we’re discussing OP stating to “delete reaper” which i disagreed with and tried to explore the point of contention.

People really don’t know what ad hominem is. It is only ad hominem if you don’t make any real claims against someones argument and insult them as your argument. If you address someones points and also attack their background, experience, etc that is not ad hominem.

Ad hominem is the difference between:
“you’re an idiot”
and
“you’re an idiot because”

I’m not sure how that impacts the current point of Chill effects.

stop derailing.

so any ways, not only chill damage coupled with CC immensities, but there is also the Life force health bar separated from their main health bar. all three make any squishy think twice about even bothering to engage a class designed to sell HOT.

I’m not derailing, derailing would be bringing up something off topic. You brought up ad hominem attacks. I’m simply stating there hasn’t been an ad hominem attack. Thus ensuring the validity of the original statements made by whoever. Meanwhile, you still haven’t addressed most of the arguments made against your claims instead claiming ad hominem. Thus why it is relevant.

To address your new claims. Could you give a specific example of why you think reaper’s cc is better than other classes? Most have cast times and animations and they don’t pump out more hard cc per second than other classes.

Death shroud is their to cover up the fact that necros have limited boon access, no invulns, no blocks and no ways to generate extra dodge rolls.

As for chill damage, I’m pretty sure it just became relevant. I always hesitate to make big bold claims about nerf this or nerf that when people have barely even had time to learn how to counterplay. If in a few weeks, people still feel chill damage is OP, I will probably have formulated an opinion based on game mechanics and be able to give you an argument. I do think it is a bit unreasonable to already be making claims about how OP it is when I haven’t seen any pro players running it in tournies yet, but that’s just me.

I am very rarely afraid of engaging a necro on thief, or mes. You made an extremely generic claim about all people who play squishy classes. I would like to see your evidence for the majority of squishy classes players feeling that way.

GS #1’s third auto hit is perhaps the most unreliable method Reapers have to apply chill. Go try it in PvP, and let me know how she rides.

@glaphen: Apparently, it is 33% damage out of the most damaging condition in a fight against a Chill-specced Necromancer, according to meow. So that seems pretty good to me, if the argument is that it is doing that much damage.

Also, another question: shouldn’t a meta have some build that destabilizes the norm in order to make people think/adapt? If everyone is comfortable with their builds that basically accommodate the rest of the meta, isn’t there a need for something that can come in and cause some consternation? This is more balance a la MOBA, like DOTA 2, where the meta often includes picks that are strong, then other picks that are designed within the meta to create problems for the strong picks.

In that sense, if people start stacking chill/chillmancers, then the answer to that in the meta is teamfighting condi clears, personal condi clears, and perhaps traiting against it. Then how effective would it be? They would probably have to shift off of stacking, and it would simply be an option to help apply pressure at a certain weakness in another team comp.

It’s possible that the damage on Deahtly Chill needs to be fixed, sure. Otherwise, I’m curious how much you feel you should be able to be chilled in a fight, barring all of the potential ways to remove/dodge it.

NeXeD.3042:

snip

To quote someone you need the first part of the quote [ quote = number; name ] and the [ /quote ]
Otherwise it’s just a potpourri of quotes.

my original claim was about chill and its effects.
my claim has always been around chill and its effects with reaper. pointing out fallacious logic was only a side note.

there are also points of contention with thief daredevil lotus training coupled with the imitative Regen and Mesmer stealth not being broken by clone skills and chrono condi stacking is nasty but these are points for a different post.

but its not just chill and its not just life force (your point is true not arguing that) and the CC immensities in combination that seems to have the community irritated. no one stating that the class should be nerfed or that it should be fundamentally changed. i’m interested the synergy of all three capabilities that is a point of concern.

i love playing reaper… but its pretty one hit wonder. only Daredevil and very tanky/mass healing classes that stand a chance against it. that’s when skill matter’s…
the original skill sets though? no i don’t need to use tactics or strategy to win. i just stand on top and spam my chills.

No Man.4180:

so any ways, not only chill damage coupled with CC immensities, but there is also the Life force health bar separated from their main health bar. all three make any squishy think twice about even bothering to engage a class designed to sell HOT.

So what do you think Chill does to enhance Stability? I’m curious what connection there is.

Reaper Stability comes from two things, Chilled to the Bone and Reaper Shroud 3. If they are in Shroud you shouldn’t be near the Reaper due to all of their attacks being powerful upclose (and non-existent at range), and CttB is a 90 second cooldown Elite. Every other Stability is just designed to get the Necro back upright.

I agree with NeXeD, limit CC’s/Stability/whatever on classes that have access to Chill and it wouldn’t bother most of us. I’ve been a punching bag for long enough, it’ll be nice for everyone to be down to my level.

Cogbyrn.7283:

GS #1’s third auto hit is perhaps the most unreliable method Reapers have to apply chill. Go try it in PvP, and let me know how she rides.

@glaphen: Apparently, it is 33% damage out of the most damaging condition in a fight against a Chill-specced Necromancer, according to meow. So that seems pretty good to me, if the argument is that it is doing that much damage.

Also, another question: shouldn’t a meta have some build that destabilizes the norm in order to make people think/adapt? If everyone is comfortable with their builds that basically accommodate the rest of the meta, isn’t there a need for something that can come in and cause some consternation? This is more balance a la MOBA, like DOTA 2, where the meta often includes picks that are strong, then other picks that are designed within the meta to create problems for the strong picks.

In that sense, if people start stacking chill/chillmancers, then the answer to that in the meta is teamfighting condi clears, personal condi clears, and perhaps traiting against it. Then how effective would it be? They would probably have to shift off of stacking, and it would simply be an option to help apply pressure at a certain weakness in another team comp.

It’s possible that the damage on Deahtly Chill needs to be fixed, sure. Otherwise, I’m curious how much you feel you should be able to be chilled in a fight, barring all of the potential ways to remove/dodge it.

your point is strong cant really argue most of it except to state that its not just team fights and not just 1v1 fights. its both sides.
yes in a team fight ill most likely clear the chills
1v1 i can dodge some and clear some but not all the chills all the time. this coupled with the CC immunities makes my reaper just difficult to deal with in a team or solo.

its interesting to note that it seems only HOT builds can counter one another leaving the original sets vulnerable.

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

so any ways, not only chill damage coupled with CC immensities, but there is also the Life force health bar separated from their main health bar. all three make any squishy think twice about even bothering to engage a class designed to sell HOT.

So what do you think Chill does to enhance Stability? I’m curious what connection there is.

Reaper Stability comes from two things, Chilled to the Bone and Reaper Shroud 3. If they are in Shroud you shouldn’t be near the Reaper due to all of their attacks being powerful upclose (and non-existent at range), and CttB is a 90 second cooldown Elite. Every other Stability is just designed to get the Necro back upright.

I agree with NeXeD, limit CC’s/Stability/whatever on classes that have access to Chill and it wouldn’t bother most of us. I’ve been a punching bag for long enough, it’ll be nice for everyone to be down to my level.

so chill stacks coupled with me life force and my CC immunities makes it very difficult for my targets to escape.

if they’re a speed build? chill slowed; CC build? stability; DPS build? tanked.
the only real counters come from the other HOT builds, I’m not bothered by any classic build for the most part unless I’m very out numbered.

Jana.6831:

NeXeD.3042:

snip

To quote someone you need the first part of the quote [ quote = number; name ] and the [ /quote ]
Otherwise it’s just a potpourri of quotes.

Sweet thx bro.

God so much crying. so reapers shouldn’t have stab cause of chill, logic there is wow.

Another post eaten, another sad had.

In short, something to think about: while in Shroud, a Reaper’s access to chill diminishes to #2 (if traited, only occurs at the end of the spin), #3 (.5 second cast time and big Grenth animation above the Necro’s head, also requires Necro to cancel their pulsing stab), and #5 (long wind up, can be blinded/dodged pretty easily). If you cleanse when the Necro goes into Shroud, odds are you can mitigate a lot of potential chill.

Then when the Necro is out of Shroud, they are very much susceptible to CC again. It’s almost like a boss that alternates phases that you have to manage, and each phase has its weakness. You just have to familiarize yourself with the phases, and the weaknesses start to show up.

I’m not quite sure yet if chill access or damage needs to be changed yet. I mean the chill damage change just went out 3-4 days ago? It’s just showing up on the radar and catching people off guard at the moment. I’ll be curious to see if people and teams both don’t just adapt without too much issue.

No Man.4180:

Cogbyrn.7283:

GS #1’s third auto hit is perhaps the most unreliable method Reapers have to apply chill. Go try it in PvP, and let me know how she rides.

@glaphen: Apparently, it is 33% damage out of the most damaging condition in a fight against a Chill-specced Necromancer, according to meow. So that seems pretty good to me, if the argument is that it is doing that much damage.

Also, another question: shouldn’t a meta have some build that destabilizes the norm in order to make people think/adapt? If everyone is comfortable with their builds that basically accommodate the rest of the meta, isn’t there a need for something that can come in and cause some consternation? This is more balance a la MOBA, like DOTA 2, where the meta often includes picks that are strong, then other picks that are designed within the meta to create problems for the strong picks.

In that sense, if people start stacking chill/chillmancers, then the answer to that in the meta is teamfighting condi clears, personal condi clears, and perhaps traiting against it. Then how effective would it be? They would probably have to shift off of stacking, and it would simply be an option to help apply pressure at a certain weakness in another team comp.

It’s possible that the damage on Deahtly Chill needs to be fixed, sure. Otherwise, I’m curious how much you feel you should be able to be chilled in a fight, barring all of the potential ways to remove/dodge it.

your point is strong cant really argue most of it except to state that its not just team fights and not just 1v1 fights. its both sides.
yes in a team fight ill most likely clear the chills
1v1 i can dodge some and clear some but not all the chills all the time. this coupled with the CC immunities makes my reaper just difficult to deal with in a team or solo.

its interesting to note that it seems only HOT builds can counter one another leaving the original sets vulnerable.

Only hot builds counter other hot builds? D/p sb theif, lb ranger, rifle engi, staff ele scepter ele all can ru in reapers.

No Man.4180:

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

so any ways, not only chill damage coupled with CC immensities, but there is also the Life force health bar separated from their main health bar. all three make any squishy think twice about even bothering to engage a class designed to sell HOT.

So what do you think Chill does to enhance Stability? I’m curious what connection there is.

Reaper Stability comes from two things, Chilled to the Bone and Reaper Shroud 3. If they are in Shroud you shouldn’t be near the Reaper due to all of their attacks being powerful upclose (and non-existent at range), and CttB is a 90 second cooldown Elite. Every other Stability is just designed to get the Necro back upright.

I agree with NeXeD, limit CC’s/Stability/whatever on classes that have access to Chill and it wouldn’t bother most of us. I’ve been a punching bag for long enough, it’ll be nice for everyone to be down to my level.

so chill stacks coupled with me life force and my CC immunities makes it very difficult for my targets to escape.

if they’re a speed build? chill slowed; CC build? stability; DPS build? tanked.
the only real counters come from the other HOT builds, I’m not bothered by any classic build for the most part unless I’m very out numbered.

Speed build? You mean a mobile class? They all have blinks/teleports.

CC builds are the opposite of skilled builds. The idea is to keep your target from activating skills while you knock their helpless body around and they just sit and take it. The CC in this game is too high. Besides, all you have to do is wait for the Reaper to get out of Shroud and you can CC to your hearts content.

My favorite build for taking down Reapers is a DPS hybrid build that does direct damage to their health and when they go into Shroud I load them with condi’s to watch them melt. A Reaper pm’d me after a 1v1 in Stronghold to ask wtf happened, they knew that Shroud had a 50% Damage Reduction but they didn’t know it only applied to direct damage.

Basically, I just don’t see the connection between Chill, Stability, and Shroud combining to be overpowered.

Eles can be difficult but no, non HOT ranger thief and eng are pretty easy to beat.
also two chills on GS, suffer shout, spectral grasp, chilled to the bone, chilling wind, Chilblains, and dark path give a total of 8 possible active chill effects; coupled with the chill passives chilling nova, chilling death, cold shoulder and deathly chill makes any set of those pretty awesome when im slapping people around in reaper.
just seems that i really only have issues with other HOT builds.
everyone else is pretty easy to beat down.

no not all mobile builds/classes have blink or teleport.

No Man.4180:

no not all mobile builds/classes have blink or teleport.

Well, Mesmers/Eles/Thieves have blinks. Rangers/Warriors/Engineers have leaps that ignore Chill, so I didn’t include them. Guardians aren’t mobile so they don’t count. Oh, and Revs are Revs.

No Man.4180:

Eles can be difficult but no, non HOT ranger thief and eng are pretty easy to beat.
also two chills on GS, suffer shout, spectral grasp, chilled to the bone, chilling wind, Chilblains, and dark path give a total of 8 possible active chill effects; coupled with the chill passives chilling nova, chilling death, cold shoulder and deathly chill makes any set of those pretty awesome when im slapping people around in reaper.
just seems that i really only have issues with other HOT builds.
everyone else is pretty easy to beat down.

Chilling Wind and Chilled to the Bone are mutually exclusive, as Chilling Wind is a Lich Form skill. Dark Path is mutually exclusive to Reaper in its entirety.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

No Man.4180:

Eles can be difficult but no, non HOT ranger thief and eng are pretty easy to beat.
also two chills on GS, suffer shout, spectral grasp, chilled to the bone, chilling wind, Chilblains, and dark path give a total of 8 possible active chill effects; coupled with the chill passives chilling nova, chilling death, cold shoulder and deathly chill makes any set of those pretty awesome when im slapping people around in reaper.
just seems that i really only have issues with other HOT builds.
everyone else is pretty easy to beat down.

Chilling Wind and Chilled to the Bone are mutually exclusive, as Chilling Wind is a Lich Form skill. Dark Path is mutually exclusive to Reaper in its entirety.

i said 8 possible*… considering we can only have 1 heal 3 skills and 1 elite…. its was assumed that the skills used were by preference.

meow one twenty.4376:

No Man.4180:

no not all mobile builds/classes have blink or teleport.

Well, Mesmers/Eles/Thieves have blinks. Rangers/Warriors/Engineers have leaps that ignore Chill, so I didn’t include them. Guardians aren’t mobile so they don’t count. Oh, and Revs are Revs.

leaps “ignore” chill? maybe help dodge the skill but no they don’t just ignore any condi.
im not too sure on teleports though from what i read Mesmer teleports do not remove conditions, nor does the thiefs teleport removes conditions nor too the ele teleport.
i mean they might also help dodge/evade the chill skill but they dont ignore any condi.