Guild Wars 2

evilapprentice.6379:

The Boz.2038:

So your argument now is “using situationally unfit skills randomly while the skills you actually want are on a long cooldown is a counter to chill”?

What are you talking about?

I guess he wants to say that if you are chilled as an ele and using your ‘good’ skills, they will be affected by the 66% longer CD. So afterwards you cant use those ‘good’ skills that fast. So your argument was that ele can use different skills. But those skills might not be that good in the specific situation. And that is the same thing I said for the thief. Thief has high potential burst skills with high initiative costs. When they are affected by chill with a lower initiativa reg they would also have to use the ‘not so good’ (but low cost skills) like every other class has.

evilapprentice.6379:

I’ve asked you to do is clarify your position.

OK, fine.
Do I think that thief weapon skills being entirely immune to the chill cooldown extender is balanced? No, I do not. Do I think this needs to be changed somehow? Yes, I do. Do I think a 66% initiative regen reduction is a good idea? No, I do not. I’ve already mentioned my idea here, that it should just add 1 or 2 seconds to the base cooldown, just enough to destroy the “spam this until they die” “rotation”.

evilapprentice.6379:

What are you talking about?

This:

evilapprentice.6379:

Ele’s and Engi’s have the potential to completely ignore chill’s CD increase due to their ability to have more than 2 weaponsets. Yes, they are affected by chill in the same manner, but it doesn’t mean as much when you have enough “weaponsets” to cycle through that your not affected by the slowdown at all.

“Oh, I’m chilled now, but that’s OK. I’ll just switch from my power/precision/crit air build into the condition damage fire build, it’s just as effective.” – Said no elementalist ever.

evilapprentice.6379:

TBH, I’m more curious as why you feel chilled Has to affect initiative regen? As you pointed out, chilled can potentially be less effective/nearly useless on an Ele and maybe an engi due to their ability to run more than 2 weaponsets, and you don’t see that as unfair. IMO, it’s not as if thieves are regenerating Init crazy fast regardless of spec, and they need to be affected by chill to bring them into line.

Without specifically speccing for initiative regen, thieves already have pretty kittenty initiative regen. You’re seeing alot of thieves go 30 points into acro for Quick Pockets AND quick recovery because without them, our init pool regenerates at a pathetic rate. The only other options are to go crazy burst so we get a fantastic rate of Damage per Init spent, or to invest heavily in SA so we can use stealth to give us time to regen init (usually both of these combined, actually).

Sorry it took me so long to respond – had to have a home inspection on the place my wife and I are buying :-p

With regards to the question about why I feel chill has to affect initiative regen, I guess I should modify/clarify my view. I think that it should affect the ability to use skills 1-5 in some way. Looking less at the details and more at the overarching concept, part of the chill debuff is creating a situation where it takes longer than baseline to use a particular skill once you have used it. I think that is the crux of the effect on skill recharge rate, although I could be mistaken. Now, the rules are different for thieves because they do not have a skill 1-5 recharge time but there has to be some middle ground where chill effects the thieves ability to use the 1-5 skills. It may be that a pure effect on initiative recharge rate is not the right way to go about this.

Someone suggested that the initiative cost of skills should be increased while chilled. I am not sure that this is the right solution either but it may be. Maybe it is that the initiative cost of a skill used while chilled has an increased initiative cost after being used while still being chilled. There has to be some way to affect skills 1-5 which does not break thieves who are chilled but also creates a type of penalty all other classes have to some degree.

Again, I am super appreciative for this thread. Without it I would have thought the only way to do this is to decrease initiative recharge rate but this is making me think a little outside the box which is hard to do for my rigid personality I will try to think of other solutions on this end and keep the ideas coming!

Sepreh,
My biggest issue with chilled affecting initiative regen rate is that it would actually affect thieves more than it does other classes. Take for example a thief who has been fighting for some time and has depleted his initiative. If his regen rate is reduced by 66% that ultimately means that skills he has already used are affect by chilled and not just skills used while chilled.

That actually is how chilled works. It affects ALL cooldowns for as long as it stays on you.

Oh, even ones that are currently on cd already? Before the chilled hits?

Just read the wiki, guess it could be applied to initiative regen but that would for sure push thieves out of any form of pvp they aren’t already pushed out of. Chilled would be a insta-win against any thief build, period.

Yarp. The “seconds” pass at 0.33 seconds per second while chilled.

Would have to figure out if chilled would affect a thief’s set initiative regen from traits/infil signet (ini every 10 seconds).

If chill increase ini regen it will be overkill..

Because:
Lets say you used only 1 high ini req skill > Your all skills effected including other weapon set.
Other classes can use other skills cept used ones.

I have better solution:

What about increasing initiative cost for used skills while chilled ?
I mean if thief used skill 2 while chilled> For limited time thief will spend more initiative for skill 2.

Yes this will effect other weapon skills too(if thief uses same skill twice) but much much better then nerfing whole initiative regen…

Lets say you used only 1 high ini req skill > Your all skills effected including other weapon set.

This happens regardless of chill though, since thieves basically have a shared cd on weapon skills.

Your solution basically means you can ignore the effect if you don’t spam your skills for a few sec while chilled, which is indeed a draw back if you choose to do it, but it still ends up being an innate resistance to chill.

Chill reducing initiative regeneration is exactly like increasing cd. The only real argument is that thieves aren’t really strong enough to warrant a change like this.

I’m fine with the change as long as Initiative Regeneration is lowered to 0.8 from 1.33.

evilapprentice.6379:

… seriously? “Tanky”? Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take… it doesn’t grant stability.. it doesn’t regenerate health (without a grandmaster trait), you can’t hold/contest a point during it… it doesn’t let you block… and I’m the one with a lack of build knowledge? You seem to have trouble with an MMO’s basic definitions (“Tanky”,‘Dodgy", etc..), I’m not sure you’re qualified yet to understand builds.

You’ll also note, we’re specifically talking about chilled here, which seriously hampers evasive game play and stealth – if you can’t keep beating on a thief who stealthed moving at 33% movement speed, you probably should go play a game more suited to your skills, like tic-tac-toe or something (But be careful, X is OP and needs to be nerfed).

tanky = ability to do basic damage while migrating the full damage output the enemy does, thats why evades exist on a thief, thats why soldier amulet exists, thats why every single blink the thief has is a stun break in case the enemy cooridnation is better than your skill and you dont use one of your 4 dodges for their stuns.
And no im fine with killing a thief, what im not fine is them being able to get a free disengage every 3~ seconds or blink 10k miles away without option for counterplay.

Andele.1306:

evilapprentice.6379:

… seriously? “Tanky”? Stealth doesn’t reduce the damage you take… it doesn’t grant stability.. it doesn’t regenerate health (without a grandmaster trait), you can’t hold/contest a point during it… it doesn’t let you block… and I’m the one with a lack of build knowledge? You seem to have trouble with an MMO’s basic definitions (“Tanky”,‘Dodgy", etc..), I’m not sure you’re qualified yet to understand builds.

You’ll also note, we’re specifically talking about chilled here, which seriously hampers evasive game play and stealth – if you can’t keep beating on a thief who stealthed moving at 33% movement speed, you probably should go play a game more suited to your skills, like tic-tac-toe or something (But be careful, X is OP and needs to be nerfed).

tanky = ability to do basic damage while migrating the full damage output the enemy does, thats why evades exist on a thief, thats why soldier amulet exists, thats why every single blink the thief has is a stun break in case the enemy cooridnation is better than your skill and you dont use one of your 4 dodges for their stuns.
And no im fine with killing a thief, what im not fine is them being able to get a free disengage every 3~ seconds or blink 10k miles away without option for counterplay.

and the day the people will understand that the glassy (becouse seems eveyone forget this) thief in stealth can be hitted will be a great day. Or the thief who run away is a thief who failed in killing you. Just take a look at youtube videos. Everytime a thief uses, for example, shadow refuge everyone stops to attack and start to running away. There is the PANIC!! issue.
A good mesmer can disengage 10k miles away aswell. But hey! thieves are the devil’s rejects, delete them.
Ah, my main is necro. Just made a thief for fun to understand how they works

mrmadhaze.8706:

Everytime a thief uses, for example, shadow refuge everyone stops to attack and start to running away.

the annoying thing is; if you kill them whilst in shadow refuge (because you dont have CC available to pull them out) you have to hang around spamming attacks because they could be downed but still invisible; and healing up. several times ive hung around after a shdow refuge to find a downed thief… and several times ive hung around trying to stop a downed thief bandaging themselves up (if there is one; because how am i supposed to know?) and get hit again by the same thief who managed to run away and reset

JonPeters.5630:

This is a subject we talk about frequently. It’s not something we take lightly because the implications would be far reaching for thieves so until we move to a more seasonal balance cadence it will be hard pressed to see the light of day.

just be careful you dont limit the viable builds thief has left.

ow and on a side note , i know thiefs got condition removal in stealth , but could we get like a condition removal on dodge ( 10 sec cooldown ) for the non stealth based builds ? with the meta beeing conditions its kinda hard for non stealth thiefs to get conditions cleansed

cheerz Tripp

Void.4239:

ow and on a side note , i know thiefs got condition removal in stealth , but could we get like a condition removal on dodge ( 10 sec cooldown ) for the non stealth based builds ?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fleet_of_Foot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evasive_Purity
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop_Drop_and_Roll

… and then theres the problem of stealth thieves also being able to dodge… therefore hitting ungodly levels of condition removal

Linguistically Inept.6583:

Void.4239:

ow and on a side note , i know thiefs got condition removal in stealth , but could we get like a condition removal on dodge ( 10 sec cooldown ) for the non stealth based builds ?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fleet_of_Foot
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evasive_Purity
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stop_Drop_and_Roll

… and then theres the problem of stealth thieves also being able to dodge… therefore hitting ungodly levels of condition removal

remove the 2 ini on stealth trait , = problem solved with all the stealth issues….

now stealth users do not get punished for using stealth over and over, they axualy get rewarded for it with high life regain / ini regain / aoe blind / condition removals/…

They need to adjust the shadow arts tree . Instead of nerfing the skills that grant stealth.

In other words , all the complains about thiefs have been direct resuslt of a trait in shadow arts tree that makes stealth use to powerfull.
again if they removed the 2 ini on stealth thing , stealth abuse would be over.

JonPeters.5630:

This is a subject we talk about frequently. It’s not something we take lightly because the implications would be far reaching for thieves so until we move to a more seasonal balance cadence it will be hard pressed to see the light of day.

Thanks for the reply Jon – much appreciated. Definitely understand not wanting to make a change that ends up destroying thieves but appreciate that you guys are thinking about it and may eventually have some penalty to the 1-5 skills while thieves are chilled, whatever form that may take

Yes but that isn’t an excuse for being overly powerful. If you remember, Ele survivability was nerfed.

shimmerless.4560:

players who complain that shadow arts buffs the use of stealth too much remind me of the people a while back who’d complain that eles running full toughness/prec gear and 30 water were hard to kill and could heal well.

isn’t the entire point of trait lines to make your character abnormally powerful in some way or another?

If 1 trait line beats the rest of the trait lines , there’s a problem

Condi removal / passive healing / aoe blinds / faster ini regain / 2ini regain on every kind of stealth application

It more or less forces viable thiefs to take shadow arts tree . and i assume that’s not the idea of build diversity.

and all they should do is adjust the 2 ini regain on every stealth application to 1 ini on stealth. and problem would be fixed , and thiefs would probbely try out more non perma stealth builds.

I like the idea of simply adding 1 initiative to the cost of each ability for the duration of the chilled effect.

This will result in chilled having a similar negative effect on thieves as on other classes without punishing the thief to the point where they are instantly countered by chilled status.

mrmadhaze.8706:

and the day the people will understand that the glassy (becouse seems eveyone forget this) thief in stealth can be hitted will be a great day.;)

Yes, you can hit a thief in stealth, no one is denying that. However, not being targetable (which some skills require to do anything) and the enemy not knowing your location are still two big defensive mechanisms because they help prevent being hit and taking damage.