Guild Wars 2

TL:DR – Either remove the adrenaline gain when hit and create a separate trait for this in the Discipline line, or move this to the Grandmaster Tier.

Cleansing Ire is currently too powerful. We have two powerful functionalities built into a single trait that isn’t even Grandmaster Tier.

Functionality 1: Condition Cleanse
This function is already powerful in its own right. Without the additional adrenaline gain, it would still be able to remove conditions faster than other traits that remove conditions (Guardian Purity = 1 condition every 10 seconds, Ranger SotF = 2 conditions upon using a survival skill, elementalist Cleansing Wave = AoE 1 condition every 10-15 seconds, etc.).

Functionality 2: Adrenaline gain when hit
Another function that is already powerful in its own right. Compare this to Berserker’s Might, a Grandmaster trait in the Strength line that gives 2 adrenaline every 3 seconds while in combat. The adrenaline gain from Cleansing Ire already provides a similar adrenaline gain, with even more when being focussed on (which is also when you’d need more adrenaline for faster condition clears). Adding the condition cleanse on top of this adds unnecessary strength to an already powerful trait that is in line with a Grandmaster trait. Furthermore, this has a stupid level of synergy with Adrenal Health (regeneration that scales with adrenaline).

Solution:
Leave the trait where it is, but remove the adrenaline gain from it. Create a new trait in the Discipline line for the adrenaline gain when it and replace Thrill of the Kill (adrenaline on kill, currently not used by anyone in any game mode) with this trait. This will then force warriors to pick two out of three traits from this trait, adrenaline on shouts and 3% damage per boon on target.

Alternatively, move the trait into the Grandmaster tier. This would only really affect shout builds (i.e. the builds that have plenty of additional condition cleanse), since other warrior builds spec 6 into this line.

Plays Engi/Ele, cries about cleansing ire. Fail.

Amir.1570:

Plays Engi/Ele, cries about cleansing ire. Fail.

You know that D/D eles are being pushed out of the meta because of shoutbows right? Because shoutbows do everything better with arguably less skill required.

make adrenaline gain like a signet’s passive and add ~5sec cd to the trait, so if you use an adrenaline skill and if trait is off CD it clenses if you got condis and goes for 5sec cd where passive does not work.

E: i think trait is fine though

Warriors are already pigeon holed into 4 points in Defense for CI, you want to make their builds and less diverse?

Unless your a ShoutBow Warriors have almost no Condition cleanse other than CI.

If you are going to split the trait they better go lower in the tier….

Shieldbash.5304:

Warriors are already pigeon holed into 4 points in Defense for CI, you want to make their builds and less diverse?

Unless your a ShoutBow Warriors have almost no Condition cleanse other than CI.

Warriors already have to spec 3 into Discipline for fast hands anyway, my suggestion changes nothing with regards to trait point distribution, while still keeping the condi cleanse.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Amir.1570:

Plays Engi/Ele, cries about cleansing ire. Fail.

You know that D/D eles are being pushed out of the meta because of shoutbows right? Because shoutbows do everything better with arguably less skill required.

There is no meta. There is about 3 teams in the world who try hard this game. And then 50 other people who take it semi serious.

As for shoutbow, yeh its the easiest spec in game. Even i can play it ok

Well if Shoutbow is your issue than I fully am on board with Shoutbow being nerfed! I do not like playing Warrior to blow a horn…. I don’t like trying to kill them, I find them annoying and almost exploitive.

Shieldbash.5304:

Well if Shoutbow is your issue than I fully am on board with Shoutbow being nerfed! I do not like playing Warrior to blow a horn…. I don’t like trying to kill them, I find them annoying and almost exploitive.

Well my other suggestion was to move Cleansing Ire to Grandmaster tier. Every other warrior build that doesn’t use shouts specs 6 into defense anyway, but it would force shoutbows to either drop Cleansing Ire (they have so much condi cleanse anyway) or heals on shout.

Most of us do not even want to spec into CI but we have to or we will just melt from conditions. If you were to grandmaster CI ~ Spiked Armor ~ Defy Pain ~ moving down?

Shieldbash.5304:

Most of us do not even want to spec into CI but we have to or we will just melt from conditions. If you were to grandmaster CI ~ Spiked Armor ~ Defy Pain ~ moving down?

Any would work. CI in its current state is more powerful than any one of those.

Defy Pain moving down would be most preferable, so that it’s still viable for people wanting to go full tank to take both condi cleanse and a damage negation when low.

To be honest I think the only Warriors you would be hurting would be non Shoutbows!

Shoutbows could remove condis just as well without CI. You move CI they’d probably just spec into Brawlers recovery.

CI is fine.
Nerfing them will nerf all warrior builds. Nerf soldiers runes instead (give them a CD) if really needed.
Shoutbow is strong against conditions but very weak against hard CC.
Eles are not that good when cleasing conditions but are stronger against hard CC and they bring water fields.

Here’s my suggestion to cleansing ire/ defense line in general

1) Keep cleansing ire where it is, but remove the ‘adrenaline on hit’ part.

2) Make a new GM trait instead to defense:
“whenever you block, reflect and evade an attack, gain adrenaline (1).”
This one changes places with the mace trait Sundering Mace, since that weapon is horrible with CI anyways, and synergizes well with the new GM trait above.

Even a warrior with high hp and armor should be encouraged to use active defenses instead of passively filling adrenaline. I didnt want it to be adrenaline on your hits, because against evasive classes like mes and thief you would be destroyed since you wouldn’t get many hits on them.

3) Change LB Combustive Shot (F1) functionality: baseline it now requires a target to hit. Bake the ground-targeting functionality into the longbow trait “Burning Arrows” and move that trait into Arms (otherwise it would synergize too well with current shoutbow, since it already goes into tactics, and Arms is about condition damage/hybrid just like the longbow)

silentnight warrior.2714:

CI is fine.
Nerfing them will nerf all warrior builds. Nerf soldiers runes instead (give them a CD) if really needed.
Shoutbow is strong against conditions but very weak against hard CC.
Eles are not that good when cleasing conditions but are stronger against hard CC and they bring water fields.

^ Boom right there. shout warrior is very easy to stunlock, so if you’re an engineer or a warrior with a hammer you are in for a great time. warriors don’t need a super nerf, which is what you’re suggesting ya just need to look at the build and figure out it’s weaknesses- because they are oh so there. that’s why dd ele is strong, it’s weak to boonrip which is super uncommon. engi drops like a fly to condi, and you can stun the shoutbow. supposing your team is mediocre you should be able to gib anything you can stunlock.

if the build has no stab and a single stunbreak you can stunlock it. even better is if you have boonrip (throw mine <3) so even stab doesn’t matter.

Random Weird Guy.3528:

You know that D/D eles are being pushed out of the meta because of shoutbows right? Because shoutbows do everything better with arguably less skill required.

I don’t agree…. cuz i’d remove the “arguably”. ^^’

And yes, Cleansing Ire is way too powerful. Combined with all the other insane Condi-removal of the War, which often is AoE too and the absolutely insane Health and Armor-Pool, the Shoutbow is just way too good while also being the by far easiest build to play in the current meta.

Also, the build single-handedly removes any full-condition-builds from the meta.

TL:DR:
Shoutbow is:
- too strong
- boring/easy to play
- hurts the meta more than any other build

great post man all valid points these are the kind of thorough posts the devs really need to read. completely un biased just the facts.

Smirgel.9460:

Here’s my suggestion to cleansing ire/ defense line in general

1) Keep cleansing ire where it is, but remove the ‘adrenaline on hit’ part.

2) Make a new GM trait instead to defense:
“whenever you block, reflect and evade an attack, gain adrenaline (1).”
This one changes places with the mace trait Sundering Mace, since that weapon is horrible with CI anyways, and synergizes well with the new GM trait above.

Even a warrior with high hp and armor should be encouraged to use active defenses instead of passively filling adrenaline. I didnt want it to be adrenaline on your hits, because against evasive classes like mes and thief you would be destroyed since you wouldn’t get many hits on them.

3) Change LB Combustive Shot (F1) functionality: baseline it now requires a target to hit. Bake the ground-targeting functionality into the longbow trait “Burning Arrows” and move that trait into Arms (otherwise it would synergize too well with current shoutbow, since it already goes into tactics, and Arms is about condition damage/hybrid just like the longbow)

Duno about suggestions (do like adrenaline part) but agree with the points you provided. For other F1 skills it doesnt work if you miss, for lb this work all the time. And many passive adrenaline gain, making them able to spam their lives off. If there are 2 warriors, necromancers are useless in that match, easy 4v5, negating all damage they do.
And the most kitten thing also is, if warrior starts to loose, he jsut run around and passively regenerate health, while spamming lb f1 and shouts. Much skill. In general, too many passives on war.

Shoutbows more of a support bunker/class that only has the ability to kill someone if you’re dumb enough to stand toe to toe with it.

Back in the early days of this game, you wouldn’t 1 on 1 a bunker guardian because you knew you had no chance in killing him, so why are people doing it now?

If you see a Shoutbow in a team fight, coordinate and pick him off first, otherwise he’s just going to be boosting the effectiveness of his allies.

If he’s standing on a point on his own, either get assistance or just leave him and go +1 somewhere else.

You can’t nerf runes of the soldier because that effects other classes, both now and in the future with upcoming specs.

I agree CI is one of the most powerful traits in existence, which defines and shapes ALL Warrior’s PVP AND WVW builds. It is a must have to any warrior in any PVP/WvW modes, and that one trait carries Warrior to become one of the bulkiest tanks.

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

Except that none of those is actually viable in seriously 5v5 now even with CI
and by zerker, i mean thief, guard, necro…not zerker warrior..

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

If there is ANY nerf that needs to happen, then nerf it after the specializations come out. Nerfing Cleansing Ire right now will kitten many people off. If you want it nerfed so bad right now, then nerf Slick Shoes and D/D ele too. Both are just as “cancer” and easy to be honest.

You’re not being reasonable.

Correct me if I am wrong, but aren’t Warriors getting Cleansing Ire as a base in next balance update?

I see no point with complaining about that.

It’s not that CI is overpowered. It’s perfectly fine for Skullcrackers etc. It’s just broken with the Longbow.

BlackTruth.6813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

If there is ANY nerf that needs to happen, then nerf it after the specializations come out. Nerfing Cleansing Ire right now will kitten many people off. If you want it nerfed so bad right now, then nerf Slick Shoes and D/D ele too. Both are just as “cancer” and easy to be honest.

You’re not being reasonable.

I’m being perfectly reasonable.
Ele and engi traits/skills have been moaned about for months and the devs are well aware of this, they do not however seem to be aware of this trait that is clearly overpowered for a non-grandmaster trait when it has both of its functionalities combined into a single trait.
Even Cleansing Water (an ele grandmaster trait) requires synergy with other traits and does not work by itself on a D/D ele, since they need other traits to get regeneration.

BlackTruth.6813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

If there is ANY nerf that needs to happen, then nerf it after the specializations come out. Nerfing Cleansing Ire right now will kitten many people off. If you want it nerfed so bad right now, then nerf Slick Shoes and D/D ele too. Both are just as “cancer” and easy to be honest.

You’re not being reasonable.

Totaly this. It is to soon to understand what balance will exist in the future.

Shoutbow already have huge weakness and its not conditions. So i dont get it why people dont just CC them and make them useless.
CI only works well with longbow and not with other weapons so not that good overal.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Amir.1570:

Plays Engi/Ele, cries about cleansing ire. Fail.

You know that D/D eles are being pushed out of the meta because of shoutbows right? Because shoutbows do everything better with arguably less skill required.

There is no meta. There is about 3 teams in the world who try hard this game. And then 50 other people who take it semi serious.

As for shoutbow, yeh its the easiest spec in game. Even i can play it ok

Ignore the OP, bad suggestion is bad (although de-braindead-ifying shoutbows is a noble goal).

Come back online though Henry! You could be the 51st….

BlackTruth.6813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

If there is ANY nerf that needs to happen, then nerf it after the specializations come out. Nerfing Cleansing Ire right now will kitten many people off. If you want it nerfed so bad right now, then nerf Slick Shoes and D/D ele too. Both are just as “cancer” and easy to be honest.

You’re not being reasonable.

You are a thief, I prefer not to enter into much discussion but….a thief is the last person on earth that can ask for nerfs on other professions, the entire PvP mode has been in terminal stage because of a single badly designed profession.

The first question people ask themselves when making a build is :“will it survive a stealth spammer hitting me for 6k dmg upward, out of nowhere?”.

So do pls forgive people if they add some sustain to their build, I guess they want to avoid to be insta gibbed by an invisible critter who stealth from a kittening mile away and can approach unnoticed

But now don’t look at me in that way, I’m not saying that ele doesn’t deserve some nerfs…but if you believe that thief doesn’t need some serious attention…you’re delusional

-edit- To the broken stealth mechanic, add teleports that ignore LoS, attacks that can go through stability, spammable interrupts, highest disengage in the whole game…and we have a winner, so pls dear thief…let me show you the way to the door

Supreme.3164:

BlackTruth.6813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

If there is ANY nerf that needs to happen, then nerf it after the specializations come out. Nerfing Cleansing Ire right now will kitten many people off. If you want it nerfed so bad right now, then nerf Slick Shoes and D/D ele too. Both are just as “cancer” and easy to be honest.

You’re not being reasonable.

You are a thief, I prefer not to enter into much discussion but….a thief is the last person on earth that can ask for nerfs on other professions, the entire PvP mode has been in terminal stage because of a single badly designed profession.

The first question people ask themselves when making a build is :“will it survive a stealth spammer hitting me for 6k dmg upward, out of nowhere?”.

So do pls forgive people if they add some sustain to their build, I guess they want to avoid to be insta gibbed by an invisible critter who stealth from a kittening mile away and can approach unnoticed

But now don’t look at me in that way, I’m not saying that ele doesn’t deserve some nerfs…but if you believe that thief doesn’t need some serious attention…you’re delusional

-edit- To the broken stealth mechanic, add teleports that ignore LoS, attacks that can go through stability, spammable interrupts, highest disengage in the whole game…and we have a winner, so pls dear thief…let me show you the way to the door

best way to promote build diversity→ delete thief

lighter.2708:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

Except that none of those is actually viable in seriously 5v5 now even with CI
and by zerker, i mean thief, guard, necro…not zerker warrior..

I would hardly call zerk necro the problem. The only thing broken about them right now is the downstate. Lich and CoD both have tells and both have counters.

NeXeD.3042:

lighter.2708:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

Except that none of those is actually viable in seriously 5v5 now even with CI
and by zerker, i mean thief, guard, necro…not zerker warrior..

I would hardly call zerk necro the problem. The only thing broken about them right now is the downstate. Lich and CoD both have tells and both have counters.

Spinal…

choovanski.5462:

Supreme.3164:

BlackTruth.6813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

If there is ANY nerf that needs to happen, then nerf it after the specializations come out. Nerfing Cleansing Ire right now will kitten many people off. If you want it nerfed so bad right now, then nerf Slick Shoes and D/D ele too. Both are just as “cancer” and easy to be honest.

You’re not being reasonable.

You are a thief, I prefer not to enter into much discussion but….a thief is the last person on earth that can ask for nerfs on other professions, the entire PvP mode has been in terminal stage because of a single badly designed profession.

The first question people ask themselves when making a build is :“will it survive a stealth spammer hitting me for 6k dmg upward, out of nowhere?”.

So do pls forgive people if they add some sustain to their build, I guess they want to avoid to be insta gibbed by an invisible critter who stealth from a kittening mile away and can approach unnoticed

But now don’t look at me in that way, I’m not saying that ele doesn’t deserve some nerfs…but if you believe that thief doesn’t need some serious attention…you’re delusional

-edit- To the broken stealth mechanic, add teleports that ignore LoS, attacks that can go through stability, spammable interrupts, highest disengage in the whole game…and we have a winner, so pls dear thief…let me show you the way to the door

best way to promote build diversity-> delete thief

Then mesmers will take over and everyone will cry that mesmers force meta…. Except meta changed quite few times (just to name few rush GS wars>Hambow>Shoutbow; spirit rangers>power rangers; s/f ele>dd ele; bunker guard>medi ham/sf; dhumfire necro>mm>nightmare>downstate power), even for thieves (besides zerker amulet, because realistically they can’t run anything else effectively)……

What did change? Amulets, spell mechanics, traits, runes/sigils~
What did stay constant since launch? Oh rrright, game mode! That is why bunkerish/bruiser classes with a lot of aoe and/or support are used in any meta.

lighter.2708:

NeXeD.3042:

lighter.2708:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

lighter.2708:

People blaming celestial when it’s zerker the problem…

Nobody’s complaining about celestial here. Cleansing ire is also used on soldier and zerker builds…

Except that none of those is actually viable in seriously 5v5 now even with CI
and by zerker, i mean thief, guard, necro…not zerker warrior..

I would hardly call zerk necro the problem. The only thing broken about them right now is the downstate. Lich and CoD both have tells and both have counters.

Spinal…

CoD is spinal shivers. you still know when it’s coming. And that’s really only broken in downstate with the dmg trait.

sure, make “embrace the pain” baseline and cleansing ire grandmaster, provided if:

“Remove a condition for every bar of adrenaline spent.”

then we’re good.

Supreme.3164:

You are a thief, I prefer not to enter into much discussion but….a thief is the last person on earth that can ask for nerfs on other professions, the entire PvP mode has been in terminal stage because of a single badly designed profession.
-snip-

Blacktruth is very much a Warrior, who plays nothing but his own burst builds which can be found on the twitch page he promotes every three threads

You should really stop deducing what people play and degrading them based on that – I already got extremely bothered by the fact that you thought I was on a hate-crusade against Eles when it is the third most played profession on my account in general and frankly, it is not even on topic whether he is a Thief or not

Cleansing Ire is not a problem, factually, it was a band-aid… Historically, Warriors have coped with bad condition removal (and don’t give me the “But Engineers”, this is about Warriors) – and for a profession aimed to a strong melee fighter, this is and was destroying the profession as a whole

To compensate for this CI was introduced. And when you think about it, the trait is not even that destructive. What is however incredibly potent is the synergy with Longbow, making the trait seemingly seem as a Grandmaster trait

Now try and run a Warrior without the Longbow and count how many times you proc CI. Trust me, you will cry against any decent player because the Warrior is next to the Necromancer one of the most telegraphed professions in this game

So like Deimos, I’d say if you make it grandmaster, you would need to compensate for a lot, by indeed removing Conditions per Adrenaline spent – this means that even if you miss your burst on other weapons, the effect would stay the same as Longbow is now

Butchering CI is not opting for more build-diversity, it would actually mean locking the Warrior further into Shoutbow

Lordrosicky.5813:

Random Weird Guy.3528:

Amir.1570:

Plays Engi/Ele, cries about cleansing ire. Fail.

You know that D/D eles are being pushed out of the meta because of shoutbows right? Because shoutbows do everything better with arguably less skill required.

There is no meta. There is about 3 teams in the world who try hard this game. And then 50 other people who take it semi serious.

As for shoutbow, yeh its the easiest spec in game. Even i can play it ok

There is always a meta. In this game it is mostly formed by teams switching up comps and classes to counter other teams. Then people adapt from that (condi necro vs power necro). Why people choose certain classes or builds depends on how strong they are and how easy to play they are mainly. Don’t be delusional. meta exists even if the scene is small. =)

Cleansing ire is one of the reasons why longbow is used by every warrior ever, so for the sake of diversity either longbow or cleansing ire needs a change. I had an idea making pindown the burst skill for longbow instead, but i don’t know warrior so yeah.

Quadox.7834:

Cleansing ire is one of the reasons why longbow is used by every warrior ever, so for the sake of diversity either longbow or cleansing ire needs a change. I had an idea making pindown the burst skill for longbow instead, but i don’t know warrior so yeah.

Not to mention that the fire field that covers a whole point is just stupid in conquest and it makes absolutely no sense for a warrior to have access to such a strong large persisting AoE.

The adrenaline on being hit should be split…and be made baseline. Looking at the proposed changes I would still be forced to run Defense, not because of CI, but because of the adrenaline gain it provides. It seems like it would be very possible to run Mending and Brawler’s Recovery and be covered on the condi removal front.

However, without the adrenaline gain many builds become unviable.

The same thing MIGHT have to be said about Fast Hands but we’ll have to see what our Specialization is first.

Honestly I would make the adrenaline gain baseline (maybe weaken it a bit, idk) and only make the condition removal when using a burst skill a trait. It feels more natural to me that a warrior would gain adrenaline on hit and when he gets hit. Never understood why they didn’t do so from the start and I don’t even play warrior that often.

I think cleansing ire is fine but I wouldn’t mind reducing the base life points of warrior.

I play necro.

Jelzouki.4128:

I think cleansing ire is fine but I wouldn’t mind reducing the base life points of warrior.

I play necro.

i think condition is fine but i wouldn’t mind removing the fear from necro

i play all classes

choucs.4507:

Jelzouki.4128:

I think cleansing ire is fine but I wouldn’t mind reducing the base life points of warrior.

I play necro.

i think condition is fine but i wouldn’t mind removing the fear from necro

i play all classes

I think you’re both right so we should nerf both warrior and necro

I play also all classes