Guild Wars 2

glaphen.5230:

Alright I really don’t think either of you play anything but hot join and just don’t understand how conquest mode works so arguing is futile.

The Problem of the PvP-Forum

or you could just play better and not let him decap.. certainly anyone running warrior or guard has no excuse for allowing them to decap in any scenario.

And that’s an instant counter..

Phaeton.9582:

or you could just play better and not let him decap.. certainly anyone running warrior or guard has no excuse for allowing them to decap in any scenario.

And that’s an instant counter..

Well, you can adjust your build to counter it, for e.g. double stability on warrior (a Guardian will get a decap sooner or later). But then again, is that fun to Play against? Player versus Point? Noone enjoys that.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Phaeton.9582:

or you could just play better and not let him decap.. certainly anyone running warrior or guard has no excuse for allowing them to decap in any scenario.

And that’s an instant counter..

Well, you can adjust your build to counter it, for e.g. double stability on warrior (a Guardian will get a decap sooner or later). But then again, is that fun to Play against? Player versus Point? Noone enjoys that.

But if you do that their team will lose the match.

Assuming your allies can take one node in a 4v4

Its just a case of accepting them forcing you into a role, then punishing them for it.

Edit: and even a good (stability-less) mediation guard will take a while to debunk (I actually just kill them on mine if they stay on node).

You could make an effective counter on any class though; it just might take some skyhammer skillz

Archaon.6245:

bunkers, like guardian, are made to hold capped points and support not to go far with cleric, perma-knockback someone and then trolling there forever forcing 2 ppl out of teamfights…that’s the point…that’s just stupid like it was during “troll mode rtl and back on contesting far point forever” eles long time ago…

You mean like Arthur Chu upending the unwritten rules of Jeopardy and winning? Yea, real stupid… /sarcasm

See, arguments like these don’t have much credibility with me because it doesn’t matter the profession. Someone found a build to hack the unwritten rules that others like to cling to. This isn’t to say that there may be skills or traits out of line or unbalanced, it is only to say that such an argument is not proof of traits being out of balance. It is only proof of someone hacking the meta with a new tactic that others have not found a way to counter yet.

For those who aren’t familiar with Arthur Chu: http://www.salon.com/2014/02/04/in_praise_of_arthur_chu_the_game_theory_nerd_who_broke_jeopardy/

That’s a great link, Chaba. Immediately reminded me of all the whining I always hear about how some (effective) builds make the game “not fun” and so forth.

Some decap Engineers carry Throw Mine which can remove stability and a meditation Guardian only has 1 teleport on a 36-45 second cooldown while their double knockbacks have a 15. Even with a max stability uptime build the most you can get is like 28 seconds out of 48 and a 12 second on 90 second cooldown trait in Spvp and an instant Detonate Mine Field into an instant Overcharged Shot will still get him off if you waste Last Stand beforehand with Air Blast or Throw Mine.

If a Thief can play, engis can’t decap vs him.
Most kicks will miss (blind/evade [d/p | s/p | s/d]). If the engi hits him, he have 3 instant ports (=no decap) with steal, shadowstep and signet.

If a Thief loose the point vs a decap engi; the Thief is realy bad.

Just my 2 cents.

OK listen up tired of this silly thread being no-where near the truth.

Elephantitas here so listen

Decap engi build
0/0/10/30/30 or 0/0/20/30/20
Bombs are silly and pointless.
Its a requirement to take toolkit and throw mine. FT or bomb kit can be used but bomb kit can be easily countered whereas FT cannot (instant CC).
If you have to use bombs heal trait for 1v1 you don’t know how to play.
1v1 minus thiefs (my counter I won’t even play decap against them if I want to win)(minus a lot of dumb thieves in NA)
1v1 in 80 hours I have died 5 times (minus thieves). 4 of those were me playing really badly. I can decap ANYONE except a d/p thief with 3 teleports.

Throw mine toolbelt has a 6 boon rip on 20s cd. GL with your stability.
Immob off point ez decap.
supply crate = full cap.
Toolkit 2 is blind removal I CANNOT be blinded with that down unless your spamming more than 1 per second. (which only a thief can do)

This build SHOULDN’T exist. I am playing it so show its brokenness. I don’t claim any skill. It’s just broken.

Nerf AR = decap engi won’t exist.

A Thief only has Shadowstep and Infiltrator’s Signet possibly and Steal on a 21-35 second cooldown. An Engineer could sit in a blind field, attack and instantly hit one of his instant knockbacks and still knock him off. Engineer has 2 instant knockbacks and possibly Throw Mine on a 15 second cooldown while Thief can only get back on the point once from Steal, Shadowstep, and Infiltrator’s Signet. You cannot skill dodge Air Blast or Overcharged Shot since they are instant so only bad Engineers should miss. If an Engineer has Overcharged Shot, Air Blast and Throw Mine he can decap a Thief with all those teleports after 15 seconds are up when the Thief has all his teleports on cooldown while the Engineer has 3 fresh knockbacks or even without Throw Mine he can do it since the Thief would only have one teleport left over.

Just remove AR and the problem is gone, thats the build-defining trait his survivability relies on.

The actual decap engi would have a tough time vs. any condi spec, so he needs to build more offensivly for beeing able to kill the opponent instead of just outlast him.
Its plain boring to fight people that are simply immortal vs. certain specs but cant kill either. AR is completly missdesigned anyway and a remove of AR wouldnt affect other engi specs much. Hell, even a decap engi would still be playable, just in a more offensive way which will result in much better fights for everyone.

Maybe redesign AR to just affect snares(crip, immobilize, chill) with a treshold increase to ~35%, so wvw´ers arent kittened and its still a solid escapetool for pvp.

Saying this from an engi perspective btw. Engi class is in a perfect spot atm, its just this abnormal AR abuse which is no fun at all.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Just remove AR and the problem is gone, thats the build-defining trait his survivability relies on.

I run AR and don’t use a decap build. A lot of engis run AR and don’t use decap builds.

What you blithely suggest removing would screw over a lot of players for no good reason.

You want to get rid of AR? Give us better stability, stun-breakers and/or condition removal, and you’ve got a deal. Until then? Find some other way to deal with this particular issue if it’s really that big of a problem (and I don’t think it is.)

I quite like the suggestion in the other thread to change AR to be a more active and less “all or nothing” trait for condition removal and make it remove 1 condition when a toolbelt skill is used over 25% health but remove 2 conditions when a TB skill is used at or under 25%.

That way it’s more active play, it’s not cheesy complete immunity and it doesn’t screw over non-decap engis.

isolatedchimp.2510:

I quite like the suggestion in the other thread to change AR to be a more active and less “all or nothing” trait for condition removal and make it remove 1 condition when a toolbelt skill is used over 25% health but remove 2 conditions when a TB skill is used at or under 25%.

That way it’s more active play, it’s not cheesy complete immunity and it doesn’t screw over non-decap engis.

Might be a little op with cleansing formula, but still better than plain passive immunity.

Qaelyn.7612:

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Just remove AR and the problem is gone, thats the build-defining trait his survivability relies on.

I run AR and don’t use a decap build. A lot of engis run AR and don’t use decap builds.

What you blithely suggest removing would screw over a lot of players for no good reason.

You want to get rid of AR? Give us better stability, stun-breakers and/or condition removal, and you’ve got a deal. Until then? Find some other way to deal with this particular issue if it’s really that big of a problem (and I don’t think it is.)

Is it really bad if a player has to play well to win his fights instead of letting a passive trait do all the work against certain specs? I dont think so…

Engis in general are the easiest class to play right now. They need a huge adjustment.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Is it really bad if a player has to play well to win his fights instead of letting a passive trait do all the work against certain specs? I dont think so…

Is it “really bad” if you give engineers some other reasonable way to deal with CC and condition spam if you’re going to take away one of their most powerful traits? Sheesh.

It’s not like they’re strong in those areas even now. And AR is a grandmaster trait, so taking it precludes a lot of other build options.

Furthermore, AR only prevents new conditions being applied, it doesn’t clear existing ones. It’s not the panacea some are portraying it to be. And it really has little to do with decapping.

Qaelyn.7612:

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Is it really bad if a player has to play well to win his fights instead of letting a passive trait do all the work against certain specs? I dont think so…

Is it “really bad” if you give engineers some other reasonable way to deal with CC and condition spam if you’re going to take away one of their most powerful traits? Sheesh.

It’s not like they’re strong in those areas even now. And AR is a grandmaster trait, so taking it precludes a lot of other build options.

Furthermore, AR only prevents new conditions being applied, it doesn’t clear existing ones. It’s not the panacea some are portraying it to be. And it really has little to do with decapping.

So why you´re playing it with all those disadvantages? Maybe it needs some buffs or be moved to adapt tier…?

No matter what you say, its just a bad trait design if somehing grants you a free win vs. certain specs. People should win by good playing, not by putting 30 points into a traitline. And besides that, its the basis of all decap engis, without it they wouldnt be viable in their current purely defensive form.

No that’s not true. You don’t need AR to decap. It’s only there for surviving condi-spam.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

So why you´re playing it with all those disadvantages?

Obviously because I find it worthwhile in my current build. A better question is why you are thoughtlessly calling for it to be removed when you acknowledge that it has disadvantages, and apparently don’t even understand what it is used for?

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

People should win by good playing, not by putting 30 points into a traitline.

It’s a trait that grants a particular limited immunity under a limited set of circumstances. Not anything that guarantees a win.

I’d trade it in a second for a trait that gave strong, direct-action condition removal not at 25% health.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

And besides that, its the basis of all decap engis, without it they wouldnt be viable in their current purely defensive form.

Sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Decapping a point happens quickly, so an ability that kicks in when down 75% health is irrelevant.

isolatedchimp.2510:

I quite like the suggestion in the other thread to change AR to be a more active and less “all or nothing” trait for condition removal and make it remove 1 condition when a toolbelt skill is used over 25% health but remove 2 conditions when a TB skill is used at or under 25%.

That way it’s more active play, it’s not cheesy complete immunity and it doesn’t screw over non-decap engis.

its impossible
4 tool belt skills = 4 cond removed but what CD got???
all TB skills got a 20-30 CD if not traited and only a few skills got under 15 sec
and if traited we got a 30% CD reduction and its useles beacause we need to spend 30 points in tool just for that reduction
if ppls know how AR work is seample to counter
AR start at 25% of engy life all condition he got last and new condition are removed, no CD, but at 25% tresold start inventions Low Healt Response System (regen 10 sec CD) + Automated Medical response (all heal skill recharged 90sec CD) + alchemy Trasmute (incoming condition r converted 15sec CD)

if u know this u need to pressure the decap engy at 50% of his life with conditions + fear chain (if u got) + knok/stun
every 20sec engy use HT end/or EG #5 for heal, he got only 1 stunbreak,
when u see him at 30% of life stun/knok/push/fear works (u got 90 sec after AMR to kill him, just dont waste ur skills)

Qaelyn.7612:

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

So why you´re playing it with all those disadvantages?

Obviously because I find it worthwhile in my current build. A better question is why you are thoughtlessly calling for it to be removed when you acknowledge that it has disadvantages, and apparently don’t even understand what it is used for?

What a weird post. You list up “disadvantages” of AR like “its not removing conditions on 25%”, so i asked you if it needs buffs in your opinion. Where do i acknowledge disadvantages of AR???

Qaelyn.7612:

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

People should win by good playing, not by putting 30 points into a traitline.

It’s a trait that grants a particular limited immunity under a limited set of circumstances. Not anything that guarantees a win.

I’d trade it in a second for a trait that gave strong, direct-action condition removal not at 25% health.

Of course it does grant you guaranteed wins vs. certain specs, at least if you aren´t fully kittened. I fought so many AR engis that, without AR, would have died 10 times till they got me, but AR simply saved their life(and of course their other defensive mechanisms), even if they don´t play pretty well.
In a competetive game, something like AR just shouldn´t exist.

Qaelyn.7612:

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

And besides that, its the basis of all decap engis, without it they wouldnt be viable in their current purely defensive form.

Sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Decapping a point happens quickly, so an ability that kicks in when down 75% health is irrelevant.

It´s not the decapping that is the problem with decap engis, it´s the decapping combined with heaviest sustain. Without AR, they wouldn´t be viable in their current, stupid abusive form. Anyone who ever played one should be able to confirm that.

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

It´s not the decapping that is the problem with decap engis, it´s the decapping combined with heaviest sustain. Without AR, they wouldn´t be viable in their current, stupid abusive form. Anyone who ever played one should be able to confirm that.

i dont use AR on my decap build
just dodge+ dodge + dodge help more than AR

A good friend and teammate of mine quit shortly after this build came into the meta game. I’d also like to point out that two teams ran decap engis in the good fights tournament. Keep in mind this is a build that does offer any team support nor is it designed to kill people in a PVP GAME.

This absolutely terrible for the game and is incredibly hard to counter despite being incredibly easy to execute. It was bad enough having teams running super bunker comps but now bunkers can literally full cap your node when they have no intention of actually fighting you. I mean seriously?

never played GW1 Hero Ascend??
not all builds was maded for killing

Dredd Spirit Caller.4082:

never played GW1 Hero Ascend??
not all builds was maded for killing

In GW1 it was possible to build full healer too. Other than that, any build either dealt damage/support the damage or was full healer/support.

Decap engi isn’t neither support nor damage.
It’s like bringing a full smiter monk in HA just to overload of enchantments the ghostly hero in KotH maps. It didn’t make any sense then because it was completely useless in other maps while having also an easy counter (enchantments removals).
The difference is that decap engi hasn’t easy counter (just warriors with stability spamming in some extents) and abuses the only PvP gamemode.

Rarnark.5623:

A good friend and teammate of mine quit shortly after this build came into the meta game. I’d also like to point out that two teams ran decap engis in the good fights tournament. Keep in mind this is a build that does offer any team support nor is it designed to kill people in a PVP GAME.

This absolutely terrible for the game and is incredibly hard to counter despite being incredibly easy to execute. It was bad enough having teams running super bunker comps but now bunkers can literally full cap your node when they have no intention of actually fighting you. I mean seriously?

PvP games aren’t just about killing people. They are about tactics and securing objectives as well. So it should be no surprise that someone actually builds for that in this type of game mode.

AR is near required on about any engineer build in spvp. A nerf to that would completely change engineers and how they’re played.

Yep. Another OP build needing a nerf.

It’s bad in team arena, can be effective in solo, though. For team, just run a “decap” thief instead. 4 stab war counters the build, just test it. Jin just go duel Wakkey, you won’t full cap before death and you need to full cap for it to be worth running the build otherwise you are a negative point investment.

Keep in mind, nothing is really new about this build. It’s been around and known for over a year, and no top team has ever run it. There are good reasons for that.

cymerdown.4103:

It’s bad in team arena, can be effective in solo, though. For team, just run a “decap” thief instead. 4 stab war counters the build, just test it. Jin just go duel Wakkey, you won’t full cap before death and you need to full cap for it to be worth running the build otherwise you are a negative point investment.

Keep in mind, nothing is really new about this build. It’s been around and known for over a year, and no top team has ever run it. There are good reasons for that.

Lets get some things straight Ken:
1 plastic Fantastic ran decap engi and they were a pretty good EU team (better than 90 percent of NA team and I say that to prevent the no “top” team comment. Na is far from TOP anything).
2: NO warrior will kill me 1v1.
3: Unless you rotate someone within 15-20 seconds I will still decap.
4: I can just 1v2 for ages (see next reason)(and I can just run around. Niflhel is hilarious)
5: 4 stab warrior gives up alot of damage or utility (the stab trait loses either cleansing ire or hammer damage)
6:Knockbacks aren’t the decap the Immob Is. You only have 1 condi immune. And removing the condi is same time as a “tick” for decap.
7: The stab trait doesn’t stun break ( or hasn’t since I’ve played warrior correct me if I’m wrong) So your still required to stun break (waste of a cd)
8: I’ll still decap you we tested this against Olrun using that exact idea… took 12 seconds to decap. Full cap in 40~.

Now to the “thief” thing. They are technically my counter. Some thieves (most of NA thiefs) I have severely out-played. Some have destroyed me. if I want to win using decap won’t play it against a thief.
1:Running decap thief isnt a guarunteed thing. If you have seen Cheese Mode, Sizer generally beats the other thief to his home point. Then its a 1v1. Which is fine.
2:I DO NOT want decap engi to be viable. I started playing it on NA to kitten every person in NA off. I feel like I’ve done a good job considering how many people rage quit, yell at me, and have disbanded their teams (thats just sad…)

Nerf AR and decap engi goes bye bye. Every condi build would be able to kill it with ease. I would like it to be changed to condi removal and NOT at low hp. Just low amounts of condi removal. Maybe 1 per toolbelt skill? Maybe 2?

And while they are at it fix the other immunities. Diamon skin( remove it) berzerker stance (just nerf it)

Elephantitas.

Just duel Wakkey 10x and tell me the results, if you can go points neutral or better against him (as in, start a match and fight at his point, then mark what the score is for both teams after your 10th death), then I will be convinced.

Stab trait does auto stunbreak. Taking an extra stab and losing hammer damage is a small build concession. Devoting an entire build to knockbacks is a bigger one.

If you won’t run the build against a team that has a thief, then what are we even discussing here anyways? Btw, when I said “decap” thief (note the quotation marks), I didn’t mean that the whole point of the thief is to decap, I meant that the thief is just plain superior to the engi for that team slot because he can accomplish so much more than the engi can, including getting uncontested decaps, which are far better than contested ones (much less points donated to enemy team by fighting on their point), while also getting ganks, rotating home for quick 2v1s against silly decap engis, and winning team fights. When I see a team with a decap engi, I see a team that misunderstands conquest game mode, whereas the team with a thief gets it.

I’m with you on the immunity traits, though.

As a s/p thief, I have no problems against decap engis, but I know just how frustrating it is to fight one with another class.

The immunity really is the killer though. Not being able to be cc’d is what saves their kitten .

JinDaVikk.7291:

cymerdown.4103:

It’s bad in team arena, can be effective in solo, though. For team, just run a “decap” thief instead. 4 stab war counters the build, just test it. Jin just go duel Wakkey, you won’t full cap before death and you need to full cap for it to be worth running the build otherwise you are a negative point investment.

Keep in mind, nothing is really new about this build. It’s been around and known for over a year, and no top team has ever run it. There are good reasons for that.

Lets get some things straight Ken:
1 plastic Fantastic ran decap engi and they were a pretty good EU team (better than 90 percent of NA team and I say that to prevent the no “top” team comment. Na is far from TOP anything).
2: NO warrior will kill me 1v1.
3: Unless you rotate someone within 15-20 seconds I will still decap.
4: I can just 1v2 for ages (see next reason)(and I can just run around. Niflhel is hilarious)
5: 4 stab warrior gives up alot of damage or utility (the stab trait loses either cleansing ire or hammer damage)
6:Knockbacks aren’t the decap the Immob Is. You only have 1 condi immune. And removing the condi is same time as a “tick” for decap.
7: The stab trait doesn’t stun break ( or hasn’t since I’ve played warrior correct me if I’m wrong) So your still required to stun break (waste of a cd)
8: I’ll still decap you we tested this against Olrun using that exact idea… took 12 seconds to decap. Full cap in 40~.

Now to the “thief” thing. They are technically my counter. Some thieves (most of NA thiefs) I have severely out-played. Some have destroyed me. if I want to win using decap won’t play it against a thief.
1:Running decap thief isnt a guarunteed thing. If you have seen Cheese Mode, Sizer generally beats the other thief to his home point. Then its a 1v1. Which is fine.
2:I DO NOT want decap engi to be viable. I started playing it on NA to kitten every person in NA off. I feel like I’ve done a good job considering how many people rage quit, yell at me, and have disbanded their teams (thats just sad…)

Nerf AR and decap engi goes bye bye. Every condi build would be able to kill it with ease. I would like it to be changed to condi removal and NOT at low hp. Just low amounts of condi removal. Maybe 1 per toolbelt skill? Maybe 2?

And while they are at it fix the other immunities. Diamon skin( remove it) berzerker stance (just nerf it)

Elephantitas.

competitive and experienced engineer talks facts . . . especially immunities are a problem and create such kittened builds.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

JinDaVikk.7291:

cymerdown.4103:

It’s bad in team arena, can be effective in solo, though. For team, just run a “decap” thief instead. 4 stab war counters the build, just test it. Jin just go duel Wakkey, you won’t full cap before death and you need to full cap for it to be worth running the build otherwise you are a negative point investment.

Keep in mind, nothing is really new about this build. It’s been around and known for over a year, and no top team has ever run it. There are good reasons for that.

Lets get some things straight Ken:
1 plastic Fantastic ran decap engi and they were a pretty good EU team (better than 90 percent of NA team and I say that to prevent the no “top” team comment. Na is far from TOP anything).
2: NO warrior will kill me 1v1.
3: Unless you rotate someone within 15-20 seconds I will still decap.
4: I can just 1v2 for ages (see next reason)(and I can just run around. Niflhel is hilarious)
5: 4 stab warrior gives up alot of damage or utility (the stab trait loses either cleansing ire or hammer damage)
6:Knockbacks aren’t the decap the Immob Is. You only have 1 condi immune. And removing the condi is same time as a “tick” for decap.
7: The stab trait doesn’t stun break ( or hasn’t since I’ve played warrior correct me if I’m wrong) So your still required to stun break (waste of a cd)
8: I’ll still decap you we tested this against Olrun using that exact idea… took 12 seconds to decap. Full cap in 40~.

Now to the “thief” thing. They are technically my counter. Some thieves (most of NA thiefs) I have severely out-played. Some have destroyed me. if I want to win using decap won’t play it against a thief.
1:Running decap thief isnt a guarunteed thing. If you have seen Cheese Mode, Sizer generally beats the other thief to his home point. Then its a 1v1. Which is fine.
2:I DO NOT want decap engi to be viable. I started playing it on NA to kitten every person in NA off. I feel like I’ve done a good job considering how many people rage quit, yell at me, and have disbanded their teams (thats just sad…)

Nerf AR and decap engi goes bye bye. Every condi build would be able to kill it with ease. I would like it to be changed to condi removal and NOT at low hp. Just low amounts of condi removal. Maybe 1 per toolbelt skill? Maybe 2?

And while they are at it fix the other immunities. Diamon skin( remove it) berzerker stance (just nerf it)

Elephantitas.

competitive and experienced engineer talks facts . . . especially immunities are a problem and create such kittened builds.

.

Regarding:
2. ROM from cheesemode would kill you. 1. Because he’s good, 2. Because the reflect projectile bug makes you rather useless.
3: You can die 1 v 1 regardless of how “OP”. “http://www.twitch.tv/livevvvgaming/b/499946230” start watching at 3:11:00.
4. Rotate a thief back.
7. The stab trait gives stab upon CC instantly stunbreaking.

The build is annoying, I do not think it is impossible to deal with. I also think that the build is relatively new to the scene and we have yet to see what it will do to the meta. That being said it fits right into the current meta in terms of being not enjoyable along with spirit rangers and warriors.

It’s not AR, stability or whatever the problem of decap engis.

It’s conquest mode. Creating a build to play against a red/blue circle is just stupid, and decap engi is stupid as a bunker guardian, a regen warrior and so on. And i play decap engi, it’s a lot of fun imo, but still..fix conquest mode (by adding new ones that do not require players to run around in a red circle) and these builds will go away by themselves, without changing mecanics that could have a deeper impact to the game just because of one build..

wow decap engy stronk, kept a point neutral against hambow and s/p thief.

Engi is the only profession that makes me yell at my screen “Why won’t you die”. Warriors and guardians eventually die, but the engi just keeps on and on and on.

Myst.5783:

Engi is the only profession that makes me yell at my screen “Why won’t you die”. Warriors and guardians eventually die, but the engi just keeps on and on and on.

, says the elementalist.

It’s not AR, stability or whatever the problem of decap engis.
It’s conquest mode. Creating a build to play against a red/blue circle is just stupid, and decap engi is stupid as a bunker guardian, a regen warrior and so on. And i play decap engi, it’s a lot of fun imo, but still..fix conquest mode (by adding new ones that do not require players to run around in a red circle) and these builds will go away by themselves, without changing mecanics that could have a deeper impact to the game just because of one build..

I agree with this.

I think AR and knockbacks aren’t the only problem of the engineer. He has too less mechanics to survive.
Thief has evade/stealth, mesmer too (and immunitys)
Warr has a good healthpool, strong armor and a strong skills/mechanics (like F1 full -> you remove 3 condis)
Nekros has a good healthpool, F1 and a lot of cc (fear)

Engi has (what it has actually (for not playing bunker) … ? )

Eurantien.4632:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

JinDaVikk.7291:

cymerdown.4103:

It’s bad in team arena, can be effective in solo, though. For team, just run a “decap” thief instead. 4 stab war counters the build, just test it. Jin just go duel Wakkey, you won’t full cap before death and you need to full cap for it to be worth running the build otherwise you are a negative point investment.

Keep in mind, nothing is really new about this build. It’s been around and known for over a year, and no top team has ever run it. There are good reasons for that.

Lets get some things straight Ken:
1 plastic Fantastic ran decap engi and they were a pretty good EU team (better than 90 percent of NA team and I say that to prevent the no “top” team comment. Na is far from TOP anything).
2: NO warrior will kill me 1v1.
3: Unless you rotate someone within 15-20 seconds I will still decap.
4: I can just 1v2 for ages (see next reason)(and I can just run around. Niflhel is hilarious)
5: 4 stab warrior gives up alot of damage or utility (the stab trait loses either cleansing ire or hammer damage)
6:Knockbacks aren’t the decap the Immob Is. You only have 1 condi immune. And removing the condi is same time as a “tick” for decap.
7: The stab trait doesn’t stun break ( or hasn’t since I’ve played warrior correct me if I’m wrong) So your still required to stun break (waste of a cd)
8: I’ll still decap you we tested this against Olrun using that exact idea… took 12 seconds to decap. Full cap in 40~.

Now to the “thief” thing. They are technically my counter. Some thieves (most of NA thiefs) I have severely out-played. Some have destroyed me. if I want to win using decap won’t play it against a thief.
1:Running decap thief isnt a guarunteed thing. If you have seen Cheese Mode, Sizer generally beats the other thief to his home point. Then its a 1v1. Which is fine.
2:I DO NOT want decap engi to be viable. I started playing it on NA to kitten every person in NA off. I feel like I’ve done a good job considering how many people rage quit, yell at me, and have disbanded their teams (thats just sad…)

Nerf AR and decap engi goes bye bye. Every condi build would be able to kill it with ease. I would like it to be changed to condi removal and NOT at low hp. Just low amounts of condi removal. Maybe 1 per toolbelt skill? Maybe 2?

And while they are at it fix the other immunities. Diamon skin( remove it) berzerker stance (just nerf it)

Elephantitas.

competitive and experienced engineer talks facts . . . especially immunities are a problem and create such kittened builds.

.

Regarding:
2. ROM from cheesemode would kill you. 1. Because he’s good, 2. Because the reflect projectile bug makes you rather useless.
3: You can die 1 v 1 regardless of how “OP”. “http://www.twitch.tv/livevvvgaming/b/499946230” start watching at 3:11:00.
4. Rotate a thief back.
7. The stab trait gives stab upon CC instantly stunbreaking.

The build is annoying, I do not think it is impossible to deal with. I also think that the build is relatively new to the scene and we have yet to see what it will do to the meta. That being said it fits right into the current meta in terms of being not enjoyable along with spirit rangers and warriors.

2.) Sure a axe/sword – bow Warrior will kill this type of engineer. But the fact you either give up utlities for stability (and the chance of a decap is still existing) makes the warrior not that powerfull compared to a hambow.

3.) Please, don’t refer an NA-Tournament as an argument to proove facts. That doesn’t work. A good engineer can hold extremly long in a 1v1. Also we don’t talk about top-teams only, but also lower-tiered teams, where such engineers have the biggest impact, because unexperienced teams don’t know how to handle/neutralize such builds.

4.) If you send a thief back you are outnumbered on mid. The only reason why teams can survive such situations is the reason of too much sustain (especially setups with warriors and rangers). In the burst-meta, no team was able to make such a rotation (Balance in gw2 these days is completely kittened up anyway).

7.) Again! The problem with decap-engis is that if you ever get knocked out of the point, they will immobilize instantly. Stunbreak doesn’t help on immobilize.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

2.) Sure a axe/sword – bow Warrior will kill this type of engineer. But the fact you either give up utlities for stability (and the chance of a decap is still existing) makes the warrior not that powerfull compared to a hambow.

3.) Please, don’t refer an NA-Tournament as an argument to proove facts. That doesn’t work. A good engineer can hold extremly long in a 1v1. Also we don’t talk about top-teams only, but also lower-tiered teams, where such engineers have the biggest impact, because unexperienced teams don’t know how to handle/neutralize such builds.

4.) If you send a thief back you are outnumbered on mid. The only reason why teams can survive such situations is the reason of too much sustain (especially setups with warriors and rangers). In the burst-meta, no team was able to make such a rotation (Balance in gw2 these days is completely kittened up anyway).

7.) Again! The problem with decap-engis is that if you ever get knocked out of the point, they will immobilize instantly. Stunbreak doesn’t help on immobilize.

Really interesting, it comes to be a L2P issue after you try to explain it.

You said NA-Tournament doesn’t work to be a proof, so why don’t you get some? And what lower-tiered teams should be? A decap engi still need practice and knowledge, you can’t faceroll or just skill spam. You thought decap engi is much easier to learn but I don’t think so, you need practice to hit enemy successfully, and leran when to dodge and block since engi got less reliable break stun skills. A bad bunker engi falls really easily. In the video, you can see a DPS decap engi killed another bunker decap engi which his CC skills always missed, it’s hard to see so many miss in a “top-team” game, and AR didn’t helps.

Outnumbered is the same issue too, it’s a 5v5 game, not WvW. And it’s not a hold-home-and-mid game, you can’t always do this pattern, that’s what decap engi focuses. You still can win if you know what to do, complain can’t help you.

And Rifle has both launch and immobilize since released, so is AR (thought it’s bugged at first). Engi didn’t got any buff like warrior’s healing signet, so decap engi should have existed for a long time, but becomes a issue just recently.

Marsuew.8216:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

2.) Sure a axe/sword – bow Warrior will kill this type of engineer. But the fact you either give up utlities for stability (and the chance of a decap is still existing) makes the warrior not that powerfull compared to a hambow.

3.) Please, don’t refer an NA-Tournament as an argument to proove facts. That doesn’t work. A good engineer can hold extremly long in a 1v1. Also we don’t talk about top-teams only, but also lower-tiered teams, where such engineers have the biggest impact, because unexperienced teams don’t know how to handle/neutralize such builds.

4.) If you send a thief back you are outnumbered on mid. The only reason why teams can survive such situations is the reason of too much sustain (especially setups with warriors and rangers). In the burst-meta, no team was able to make such a rotation (Balance in gw2 these days is completely kittened up anyway).

7.) Again! The problem with decap-engis is that if you ever get knocked out of the point, they will immobilize instantly. Stunbreak doesn’t help on immobilize.

Really interesting, it comes to be a L2P issue after you try to explain it.

You said NA-Tournament doesn’t work to be a proof, so why don’t you get some? And what lower-tiered teams should be? A decap engi still need practice and knowledge, you can’t faceroll or just skill spam. You thought decap engi is much easier to learn but I don’t think so, you need practice to hit enemy successfully, and leran when to dodge and block since engi got less reliable break stun skills. A bad bunker engi falls really easily. In the video, you can see a DPS decap engi killed another bunker decap engi which his CC skills always missed, it’s hard to see so many miss in a “top-team” game, and AR didn’t helps.

Outnumbered is the same issue too, it’s a 5v5 game, not WvW. And it’s not a hold-home-and-mid game, you can’t always do this pattern, that’s what decap engi focuses. You still can win if you know what to do, complain can’t help you.

And Rifle has both launch and immobilize since released, so is AR (thought it’s bugged at first). Engi didn’t got any buff like warrior’s healing signet, so decap engi should have existed for a long time, but becomes a issue just recently.

decap engi was a thing long ago, people ran it in solo and team, and a lot of people rage because of it, became a thing recently because some people posted on forum and more people started to run it.

I just watch decap Engi hold a point vs 4 with some support from me until we reached 500 points. The other team gave up they couldn’t kill one guy cause they had no burst…..

Decap Engi wrecking PvP along with Warriors 2014.

Marsuew.8216:

And Rifle has both launch and immobilize since released, so is AR (thought it’s bugged at first). Engi didn’t got any buff like warrior’s healing signet, so decap engi should have existed for a long time, but becomes a issue just recently.

Engineer’s sustain wasn’t even close as it is now, which is relevant since we are considering a bunker build running on cleric most the times.
Elixir-Infused bombs got a quite good buff to healing power scaling.

Accelerant-Packed Turrets was moved to adept, which is an insane buff to decap bunker engis since you couldn’t take it before along with Elixir-Infused Bombs and Automated Response.

Last night a decap engi couldn’t decap me with guard at altar (No fences) 0 0 10 30 30 double stability (syg+f3) + hallowed ground <3 and I still had to time blocks and dodges really good since one mistake and you’re out, while he just kept spamming kbs like if there was no tomorrow..and for sure he wasn’t good cause a good engi won’t waste his kbs on guard’s focus…and still needed to play at best just to hold point for almost 2 minutes..

….he then went away and started raging on how op bunker guardian is….

lolwut? o___o

There’s a reason why i’m out from this stupid meta and its playerbase..

Archaon.6245:

I still had to time blocks and dodges

one main problem beside not killing the engi is, that these knockbacks are instant. so what you did is “timing” your random dodges, great job. the enemy engi just was bad and probably hit in your stab. against a decap engi its mostly luck and some quick reflexes with stunbreak (which you may have. i dont want to saw you re not good. i just want to tell it wasnt because of you that you dont get decapped).
I think the problem with the knockbacks cant be solved because you would take away something important of the engi (knockbacks are also defense for some builds). So if they would change Ar to something like: remove all condis when entering 25% hp it may solve the problem. Condi classes like other engis or necros would kill the decappermore often. They will probably still get decapped but they would kill him. Or maybe they should change the automatic medical response (inventions 15). this may be one of the main resons why necros right now cant kill an decapper. normally you just have to apply your condis at 40% hp and look how he dies. AR wont help him. Thats what you do with bombnade engis with ar. This 15 points trait however saves the life of the engi then.

Edit:
I dont think the bomb buff is the reason why so many people are running decapper. many dont even use bombs. Engi gets nerf nearly every patch. So its not the nerf which brought them up. Ive seen decapper a year ago. It just wasnt that popular. Mainly because Burst setups can handle it better. A mes and a Thief kill an engi in seconds after his toolkitblock. Same with necro and thief. so they can rotate (maybe with portal) and then beat them on mid. Also you couldnt run a decapper because against burst setups your mid wont hold 3vs4 long enough.
So in my opionion there are 3 things bringing up decap engis. first because there is a more tanky meta, second because it just got popular (it was there the whole time) and last but not least because there are many engis who cant play something else right know. Backpoint engis got a hard time (it still kind of viable but it got harder) and burstengis are not viable. I cant tell you a single 1 v 1 which is a freekill for an engi. You may got a better change against thief, but they wont die if they are not stupid because they can leave. and they can still kill you with luck. Necros, Wars and Scepter/focus ele are hardcounter. A Ranger is even, same on mes, a offguard got a chance although you will probably kill him and an engi is even again.

Qaelyn.7612:

Mister Fluffkin.7358:

Just remove AR and the problem is gone, thats the build-defining trait his survivability relies on.

I run AR and don’t use a decap build. A lot of engis run AR and don’t use decap builds.

What you blithely suggest removing would screw over a lot of players for no good reason.

You want to get rid of AR? Give us better stability, stun-breakers and/or condition removal, and you’ve got a deal. Until then? Find some other way to deal with this particular issue if it’s really that big of a problem (and I don’t think it is.)

AR is broken and useless for anything but bunkerbuilds. I have played everybuild there is for engineer and the only time I needed AR was when I played decap engineer. I dont know what kind of hipster build your running but its propably not a viable one.

The solution is simple: nerf or remove AR. And with nerf I dont mean 92% condition duration

Anti.9156:

Archaon.6245:

I still had to time blocks and dodges

one main problem beside not killing the engi is, that these knockbacks are instant. so what you did is “timing” your random dodges, great job. the enemy engi just was bad and probably hit in your stab. against a decap engi its mostly luck and some quick reflexes with stunbreak (which you may have. i dont want to saw you re not good. i just want to tell it wasnt because of you that you dont get decapped).
I think the problem with the knockbacks cant be solved because you would take away something important of the engi (knockbacks are also defense for some builds). So if they would change Ar to something like: remove all condis when entering 25% hp it may solve the problem. Condi classes like other engis or necros would kill the decappermore often. They will probably still get decapped but they would kill him. Or maybe they should change the automatic medical response (inventions 15). this may be one of the main resons why necros right now cant kill an decapper. normally you just have to apply your condis at 40% hp and look how he dies. AR wont help him. Thats what you do with bombnade engis with ar. This 15 points trait however saves the life of the engi then.

Edit:
I dont think the bomb buff is the reason why so many people are running decapper. many dont even use bombs. Engi gets nerf nearly every patch. So its not the nerf which brought them up. Ive seen decapper a year ago. It just wasnt that popular. Mainly because Burst setups can handle it better. A mes and a Thief kill an engi in seconds after his toolkitblock. Same with necro and thief. so they can rotate (maybe with portal) and then beat them on mid. Also you couldnt run a decapper because against burst setups your mid wont hold 3vs4 long enough.
So in my opionion there are 3 things bringing up decap engis. first because there is a more tanky meta, second because it just got popular (it was there the whole time) and last but not least because there are many engis who cant play something else right know. Backpoint engis got a hard time (it still kind of viable but it got harder) and burstengis are not viable. I cant tell you a single 1 v 1 which is a freekill for an engi. You may got a better change against thief, but they wont die if they are not stupid because they can leave. and they can still kill you with luck. Necros, Wars and Scepter/focus ele are hardcounter. A Ranger is even, same on mes, a offguard got a chance although you will probably kill him and an engi is even again.

Yeah many kbs are istant…and he blowed many on blocks too but not wasting stability while you can actually dodge something like big “trol” bomb (Should say radius is still bugged cause it knockbacks you way outside red circle but i suppose they’re working on it…since like…6 months ago lol) or elixir x (Yeah had dat too) kb, you can actually dodge tornados (Ele’s too) for saving up stability as much as possible…point is that i needed to go hard mode just to face someone just spamming kitten randomly…and as i said he was bad cause there’s no way to hold a point vs a good decap engi for decent time without fences…but bad engis spamming random stuff are really hard already (Skills needed for them pretty much 0 but you need to go “sage mode” just to keep up)

And in the end…bunker guardian op…

cymerdown.4103:

It’s bad in team arena, can be effective in solo, though. For team, just run a “decap” thief instead. 4 stab war counters the build, just test it. Jin just go duel Wakkey, you won’t full cap before death and you need to full cap for it to be worth running the build otherwise you are a negative point investment.

So in other words, if a team has a warrior as good as wakkey, they can beat the decap engi? If not they will lose?

Wouldn’t you say he is one of the top 5 warriors in NA? If so, it doesn’t prove anything. For example, I saw an ele yesterday who absolutely dominated a top 1000 solo queue. Does that mean the ele is ok, or was it just a really good player?