Guild Wars 2

Simply, if the core meta cannot compete equally with hot meta, then the game is then p2w. Otherwise, it is not p2w.

Unfortunately we see no core build beating HoT build and we see no core build in tournament as well. Thus, Any f2p user will think this game p2w.

Its not pay to win its buy to get extra shiny stuff
Base game is now for free
Players who bouhgt gw2(non hot) have access too TP and have map/ whisper freedom over f2p players
Players who have bought HOT have acces too HOT content (raids, specialisations mastery’s and the new maps)
So why should basegame only / free2 play get acces to it. Btw HOT only gives acces to new traits and one new weapon. It doesnt give a stat boost it only offers a extra traitline.
Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible yes your old builds might not work any more but you cant run the same build for too long since people will figure out how to counter after a while. Learn to adapt people

daggerhands.9634:

Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible

So you agree that HoT builds do have an advantage over core ones. Well, that does answer the question, does it not?

I wouldn’t exactly call it P2W but it’s pretty shady after the crap we were fed that elite specs were just different playstyles instead of flat out upgrades.

It’s a joke, but so is the quality of PvP in this game, so it fits. As long as they don’t charge me a sub I guess GW2 still has the edge.

Astralporing.1957:

daggerhands.9634:

Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible

So you agree that HoT builds do have an advantage over core ones. Well, that does answer the question, does it not?

Builds themself no non hot players that dont know what the specialisations do however causes them to go on these forums and complain about the game being pay to win

daggerhands.9634:

Its not pay to win its buy to get extra shiny stuff
Base game is now for free
Players who bouhgt gw2(non hot) have access too TP and have map/ whisper freedom over f2p players
Players who have bought HOT have acces too HOT content (raids, specialisations mastery’s and the new maps)
So why should basegame only / free2 play get acces to it. Btw HOT only gives acces to new traits and one new weapon. It doesnt give a stat boost it only offers a extra traitline.
Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible yes your old builds might not work any more but you cant run the same build for too long since people will figure out how to counter after a while. Learn to adapt people

Core meta cannot win any of HoT meta, but HoT meta can pwn any of core meta, thus p2w is correct answer.

online.1278:

daggerhands.9634:

Its not pay to win its buy to get extra shiny stuff
Base game is now for free
Players who bouhgt gw2(non hot) have access too TP and have map/ whisper freedom over f2p players
Players who have bought HOT have acces too HOT content (raids, specialisations mastery’s and the new maps)
So why should basegame only / free2 play get acces to it. Btw HOT only gives acces to new traits and one new weapon. It doesnt give a stat boost it only offers a extra traitline.
Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible yes your old builds might not work any more but you cant run the same build for too long since people will figure out how to counter after a while. Learn to adapt people

Core meta cannot win any of HoT meta, but HoT meta can pwn any of core meta, thus p2w is correct answer.

Just because you cant doesnt make it fact plz learn to build arguments on facts your personal situation nor skill level is a fact (btw thief shattermes (both condi and power) rampager war, engi marauder(non hot build) eng condi and multiple other builds are still viable)

daggerhands.9634:

online.1278:

daggerhands.9634:

Its not pay to win its buy to get extra shiny stuff
Base game is now for free
Players who bouhgt gw2(non hot) have access too TP and have map/ whisper freedom over f2p players
Players who have bought HOT have acces too HOT content (raids, specialisations mastery’s and the new maps)
So why should basegame only / free2 play get acces to it. Btw HOT only gives acces to new traits and one new weapon. It doesnt give a stat boost it only offers a extra traitline.
Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible yes your old builds might not work any more but you cant run the same build for too long since people will figure out how to counter after a while. Learn to adapt people

Core meta cannot win any of HoT meta, but HoT meta can pwn any of core meta, thus p2w is correct answer.

Just because you cant doesnt make it fact plz learn to build arguments on facts your personal situation nor skill level is a fact (btw thief shattermes (both condi and power) rampager war, engi marauder(non hot build) eng condi and multiple other builds are still viable)

viable doesnt mean it is superior than hot meta.
Do any1 use core in tournament?
i would stop arguing p2w unless people in tourney uses core at least at 40% out of 100%. 40% is minimum. like 4 out of 10 people in tourney should use core, then it makes no p2w. they are people who uses most decent build so if they use no core that means core is generally worse than hot. buff core then become no p2w.

Otherwise I can;t believe this game is not p2w.

online.1278:

daggerhands.9634:

online.1278:

daggerhands.9634:

Its not pay to win its buy to get extra shiny stuff
Base game is now for free
Players who bouhgt gw2(non hot) have access too TP and have map/ whisper freedom over f2p players
Players who have bought HOT have acces too HOT content (raids, specialisations mastery’s and the new maps)
So why should basegame only / free2 play get acces to it. Btw HOT only gives acces to new traits and one new weapon. It doesnt give a stat boost it only offers a extra traitline.
Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible yes your old builds might not work any more but you cant run the same build for too long since people will figure out how to counter after a while. Learn to adapt people

Core meta cannot win any of HoT meta, but HoT meta can pwn any of core meta, thus p2w is correct answer.

Just because you cant doesnt make it fact plz learn to build arguments on facts your personal situation nor skill level is a fact (btw thief shattermes (both condi and power) rampager war, engi marauder(non hot build) eng condi and multiple other builds are still viable)

viable doesnt mean it is superior than hot meta.
Do any1 use core in tournament?
i would stop arguing p2w unless people in tourney uses core at least at 40% out of 100%. 40% is minimum. like 4 out of 10 people in tourney should use core, then it makes no p2w. they are people who uses most decent build so if they use no core that means core is generally worse than hot. buff core then become no p2w.

Viable means viable doesnt matter if it gets run in ESL or not (btw esl doesnt necessarily run the meta builds they run builds benefitting groupplay stratigy or groupcomp) builds dont have to be meta to be run /good to run meta only means that it is the build judged to be the best in most situations. Viable builds fill that void

Also buff core? You know that hot builds use 2 traitlines from the main class right

daggerhands.9634:

online.1278:

daggerhands.9634:

online.1278:

daggerhands.9634:

Its not pay to win its buy to get extra shiny stuff
Base game is now for free
Players who bouhgt gw2(non hot) have access too TP and have map/ whisper freedom over f2p players
Players who have bought HOT have acces too HOT content (raids, specialisations mastery’s and the new maps)
So why should basegame only / free2 play get acces to it. Btw HOT only gives acces to new traits and one new weapon. It doesnt give a stat boost it only offers a extra traitline.
Also base game can counter Hot builds, its very hard but possible yes your old builds might not work any more but you cant run the same build for too long since people will figure out how to counter after a while. Learn to adapt people

Core meta cannot win any of HoT meta, but HoT meta can pwn any of core meta, thus p2w is correct answer.

Just because you cant doesnt make it fact plz learn to build arguments on facts your personal situation nor skill level is a fact (btw thief shattermes (both condi and power) rampager war, engi marauder(non hot build) eng condi and multiple other builds are still viable)

viable doesnt mean it is superior than hot meta.
Do any1 use core in tournament?
i would stop arguing p2w unless people in tourney uses core at least at 40% out of 100%. 40% is minimum. like 4 out of 10 people in tourney should use core, then it makes no p2w. they are people who uses most decent build so if they use no core that means core is generally worse than hot. buff core then become no p2w.

Viable means viable doesnt matter if it gets run in ESL or not (btw esl doesnt necessarily run the meta builds they run builds benefitting groupplay stratigy or groupcomp) builds dont have to be meta to be run /good to run meta only means that it is the build judged to be the best in most situations. Viable builds fill that void

they use none cuz core sucks generally. thus p2w, understood?
you have to pay hot to win.

i would stop arguing p2w unless people in tourney uses core at least at 40% out of 100%. 40% is minimum. like 4 out of 10 people in tourney should use core, then it makes no p2w. they are people who uses most decent build so if they use no core that means core is generally worse than hot. buff core then become no p2w.

Otherwise I can’t believe this game is not p2w.

I edited my last post please read that last point i made and you will see the point you are trying to make wont be fixed by that you offered as a change

Why are you hitting yourself

daggerhands.9634:

Why are you hitting yourself

becuz i love to hit myself!

daggerhands.9634:

Viable means viable

Your point? It’s not like core builds are non-viable (heh, any build, no matter how bad, is viable, when you look at it). It’s that they are visibly inferior to the HoT builds. If you bought HoT, you have an advantage over core players.
You have already admitted that much, by mentioning that defeating a hot build with a core one would be very hard.
So, you do need to pay to have advantage vs those that didn’t pay/be on equal ground against those that also paid.

I’m not even sure why anyone still keeps arguing this is not the case. Even OP admitted that much in the first post.

Astralporing.1957:

daggerhands.9634:

Viable means viable

Your point? It’s not like core builds are non-viable (heh, any build, no matter how bad, is viable, when you look at it). It’s that they are visibly inferior to the HoT builds. If you bought HoT, you have an advantage over core players.
You have already admitted that much, by mentioning that defeating a hot build with a core one would be very hard.
So, you do need to pay to have advantage vs those that didn’t pay/be on equal ground against those that also paid.

I’m not even sure why anyone still keeps arguing this is not the case. Even OP admitted that much in the first post.

People arnt argueing against the statement that elite specs can give you a slight advantage, people are telling you that doesnt make it “p2w”, its buying the full game.

This game was always BUY to play, anet decided to allow free access to the core game when they released the expansion, the expansion is the most current version of the game so of course you have BUY the game to get its features

What would you have preferred as the alternative? They release the expansion and raise the level cap or just use completely different servers so that you wont be allowed to pvp with any of the hot players if you dont buy the expansion and are left with only the tiny minority of players who didnt upgrade? So far anet has been pretty kitten generous with keeping it so that free to play players can stay decently competitive with expansion owners compared to ANY AND EVERY other mmo with an expansion.

All i see here is a bunch of entitled brats trying to use buzz words and mob mentality to get what they want just because they want it, kind of like unions

it’s pathetic…
please, Anet just make base game B2P model again

Kucabara.9237:

it’s pathetic…
please, Anet just make base game B2P model again

That would make the game EXACTLY the same as it is now just with fewer people playing… HoT would still cost money and Elite Specs would still be strong as they are now.

What are you expecting to change?

Just double checking. So you guys are OK and expect elites to be far superior to be the core classes because they cost money?

SlayerSixx.5763:

Just double checking. So you guys are OK and expect elites to be far superior to be the core classes because they cost money?

No we expect Elite Specs to be superior because they are part of an expansion which adds skills and traits.

Oh my gosh, you little whiney babies think the ANet programmers should work for free? They have to feed their children and keep the heat on. One $30.00 expansion in 3 or 4 years? Get a life. You should consider it a donation for them being so nice. Enough said.

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Lol look at you trying to reframe the debate to “Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep?” No one on your side or our side has mentioned the concept of power creep, you are upset about a negative difference between Core and HoT – power creep is irrelevant to this and has occured with or withoout HoT.

Nice try attempting to say “you’re just like kitten” though in other words, lol “bashing the people who are against power creep” such nonsense xD

Power creep is bad => people who are against it are good (You pretended everyone on your side were here) => people bashing those people are bad (This means the people who disagree with you are here, oh no the bad people are here eeep)

^ This was the fraudulent chain of logic you wanted to evoke, just pointing it out so everyone sees through you.

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Lol look at you trying to reframe the debate to “Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep?” No one on your side or our side has mentioned the concept of power creep, you are upset about a negative difference between Core and HoT – power creep is irrelevant to this and has occured with or withoout HoT.

HoT significantly added to power creep, and what is worse locked it behind a paywall. There would have been no problem whatsoever if HoT specializations were on the same power level as core ones – in fact, that was the stated design behind them. Unfortunately, they aren’t – what they are is stronger, and it’s not a small difference either.

And yes, by the way, agreeing that elite specs should be stronger because they are from expansion is asking for power creep with every expansion.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Lol look at you trying to reframe the debate to “Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep?” No one on your side or our side has mentioned the concept of power creep, you are upset about a negative difference between Core and HoT – power creep is irrelevant to this and has occured with or withoout HoT.

HoT significantly added to power creep, and what is worse locked it behind a paywall. There would have been no problem whatsoever if HoT specializations were on the same power level as core ones – in fact, that was the stated design behind them. Unfortunately, they aren’t – what they are is stronger, and it’s not a small difference either.

And yes, by the way, agreeing that elite specs should be stronger because they are from expansion is asking for power creep with every expansion.

It is actually a “small” difference in power, people are WAY over exaggerating how much stronger elites are, they are the most OPTIMAL overall but they dont just straight out make core classes useless in comparison.

And this power creep caused by the elite specs is likely to be a 1 time thing (sort of). This initial power creep was inevitable because of how elite specs are designed, they add unique weapons and class mechanics that the class didnt have before. Now i wil admit that anet was a little deceptive by saying that elite specs will be “equal” to core specs because they arnt, BUT this situation is temporary, you can only have 1 elite spec equipped at a time, so an elite spec must use 2 core specs meaning the core specs are always going to be relevant. The system is just wierd right now because we only have 1 elite spec for each class

Those guys who oppose should go dueling arena with any core build and realize how OP HoT spec is.

It is almost unplayable level with core, feel the actual power of p2w by yourself.

online.1278:

Core meta cannot win any of HoT meta, but HoT meta can pwn any of core meta, thus p2w is correct answer.

I did the new HoT content first on my core builds even before they made it easier. I still run some core builds in all 3 game modes..

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Lol look at you trying to reframe the debate to “Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep?” No one on your side or our side has mentioned the concept of power creep, you are upset about a negative difference between Core and HoT – power creep is irrelevant to this and has occured with or withoout HoT.

Nice try attempting to say “you’re just like kitten” though in other words, lol “bashing the people who are against power creep” such nonsense xD

Power creep is bad => people who are against it are good (You pretended everyone on your side were here) => people bashing those people are bad (This means the people who disagree with you are here, oh no the bad people are here eeep)

^ This was the fraudulent chain of logic you wanted to evoke, just pointing it out so everyone sees through you.

The debate was and still is whether or not HoT is pay to win. You said that it was OK for the elite specs to be stronger because they’re part of the expansion. Its only fair, then, to assume that you’re OK with the subsequent power creep. The power creep, regardless of how you see it, isn’t OK for the game.

Paying to win is power creep in its dirtiest form, since its also hidden behind a paywall, but this OK since they called it an expansion, no? The base game has suddenly become a demo and HoT is now the real game, not an addition.

I’m not pretending people are on my side. You’ll find that a majority of the people still playing PvP are HoT owners, therefore you don’t find much argument there. You (and the people supporting the idea that HoT isn’t P2W) have stated that you’re OK with the power creep. I will state, again, that power creep isn’t good for any game and you’ll find many people who would agree with it, regardless of whether or not the creep was hidden behind a paywall.

Honestly, I don’t understand how anyone could be OK with that. I’m a HoT owner as well, mind you. After playing for a few weeks after HoT dropped, I couldn’t even bother to stomache how warped the game became compared to what it used to be. I’m not against changes of classes, gameplay, or meta, but I am against having the changes devolve the game into a spamfest of passives and conditions. I mean, I don’t even know why I’m posting here anymore tbh. Anet seemed to think that a good fix for thief was buffing #1 and giving them an elixir S passive, as if that makes acro worth it or that an extra 20 HPS would give warrior the kick in the kitten it needed to get moving. Oh well, man. Enjoy the power creep.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Coulter.2315:

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Lol look at you trying to reframe the debate to “Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep?” No one on your side or our side has mentioned the concept of power creep, you are upset about a negative difference between Core and HoT – power creep is irrelevant to this and has occured with or withoout HoT.

Nice try attempting to say “you’re just like kitten” though in other words, lol “bashing the people who are against power creep” such nonsense xD

Power creep is bad => people who are against it are good (You pretended everyone on your side were here) => people bashing those people are bad (This means the people who disagree with you are here, oh no the bad people are here eeep)

^ This was the fraudulent chain of logic you wanted to evoke, just pointing it out so everyone sees through you.

The debate was and still is whether or not HoT is pay to win. You said that it was OK for the elite specs to be stronger because they’re part of the expansion. Its only fair, then, to assume that you’re OK with the subsequent power creep. The power creep, regardless of how you see it, isn’t OK for the game.

Paying to win is power creep in its dirtiest form, since its also hidden behind a paywall, but this OK since they called it an expansion, no? The base game has suddenly become a demo and HoT is now the real game, not an addition.

I’m not pretending people are on my side. You’ll find that a majority of the people still playing PvP are HoT owners, therefore you don’t find much argument there. You (and the people supporting the idea that HoT isn’t P2W) have stated that you’re OK with the power creep. I will state, again, that power creep isn’t good for any game and you’ll find many people who would agree with it, regardless of whether or not the creep was hidden behind a paywall.

Honestly, I don’t understand how anyone could be OK with that. I’m a HoT owner as well, mind you. After playing for a few weeks after HoT dropped, I couldn’t even bother to stomache how warped the game became compared to what it used to be. I’m not against changes of classes, gameplay, or meta, but I am against having the changes devolve the game into a spamfest of passives and conditions. I mean, I don’t even know why I’m posting here anymore tbh. Anet seemed to think that a good fix for thief was buffing #1 and giving them an elixir S passive, as if that makes acro worth it or that an extra 20 HPS would give warrior the kick in the kitten it needed to get moving. Oh well, man. Enjoy the power creep.

Lets just make me a god for a bit so I can manipulate the power levels of everything in game to show you how your argument does not interact with the argument about power creep.

1. There is a power level for everything preHoT.

2. HoT releases, I nerf all Core Specs and have all HoT Elite Specs set at the level in 1.

This causes there to be an overall power loss in the game but would still produce the outcome you are complaining about (but guess what the complaints would be like if the Core people got NERFED at the same time they couldn’t find their wallet – this is why they didn’t do it the way I showed).

It is impossible to have an Elite Spec at the same powerlevel as a Core Spec because it ADDS a weapon, new mechanic, utilities and an elite skill with nothing removed except certain combinations of 3 trait lines (which cannot outweigh what is given unless they make the Elite Traitline really bad, which they tried a bit by removing a minor trait from them).

The system going forward will be an Elite Spec which is now mutually exclusiive with all other Elite Spec will be released with subsequent expansions, Core alone is just a base to build on (very rarely will 3 core specs be worth the massive losses to skill selection and mechanics an elite spec brings).

Telling me to “enjoy my power creep” is hilarious because I have argued against almost all changes that increase mesmer power in an unhealthy way (the class I play) because I do not want power creep. Your ignorance of the structure of the game, how people would react to mass nerfs AND the fact that its an expansion for the whole game (pve included) shows you to be the kind of person that mistakes me for someone who argues for power creep.

And you’ve bought it anyway so you’re white knighting the people who didn’t spend £35 for something they were given 9months notice for (I’m not sure these people exist in the numbers you think they do, just out of interest can anyone who hasn’t bought the expansion and been angry enough to post here akready make themselves known – would be funny if it was just a bunch of people who are really bad at playing in HoT pve areas just looking to QQ more about it, like Astral)

Why would it be impossible? Different classes exist in the game that have been, at one point or another, almost balanced. The elites were STATED to provide alternate play styles. Making it possible to basically play my DH as a ranger with over 10s of immobilize, 2 pulls, 2 knockdowns, and a root with almost 10s of block time while sporting almost 20k HP and still hitting true shots for around 7k shouldn’t be possible (not arguing that DH is OP, just that its far superior to core guard).

Speaking of guardian, a simple balance without a huuuge rework would be to simply buff scepter AA speed and reduce the amount of hits it would take to do smite’s full damage. That’d give core guard a decent ranged weapon. While this wouldn’t put it 100% on par with longbow, one could argue that the fact that you can combine scepter with another off hand for more versatility. Its simple things like these that would give core specs a real kickstart. While I’m sure other classes might have much more issues in their core specialization other than just slow AAs, I’m simply not that well versed enough in those classes to create an in depth and meaningful suggestion for them.

I don’t know at this point, though. It seems as if anet is totally fine with everyone, including some of their top players, being dissatisfied with balance while leaving another portion happy instead of aiming to simply leave both sides content. Could simply be that a lot of us who’re complaining played the game at times when it was better than this and just felt like voicing our opinions.

Coulter.2315:

It is impossible to have an Elite Spec at the same powerlevel as a Core Spec because it ADDS a weapon, new mechanic, utilities and an elite skill with nothing removed except certain combinations of 3 trait lines (which cannot outweigh what is given unless they make the Elite Traitline really bad, which they tried a bit by removing a minor trait from them).

They add in total, but in any single build you can still use only 2 weapon sets (one, in case of some classes), 3 traitlines, one heal, one elite skill and 3 utilities. To use anything from new elite spec you need to give up something from core. Which would be enough… if only new things were balanced against old ones. They weren’t.

Anet didn’t balance elites so they were an alternate, reasonable choice. In most cases they went straight for specs being the obvious choice, superior to all alternatives.

(remember, also, that at the first iteration, in HoT betas, some of those elite specs were straight out inferior to core, which shows that what you try to claim is simply not true).

check images and compare if it applies to gw2.

I don’t really see the problem. It’s an expansion.

If they had raised the level cap to 100 and introduced a new gear tier that we can call God-tier, both exclusive to the xpac, you wouldn’t have been able to compete with just the core game either.

That’s not p2w, I’ve played many games that actually were, that’s just the way MMO expansions have worked since they became a thing.

Specializations never made sense to me from a design perspective, very bad design decision, to be honest what a waste of resources and time, instead they should have work on what they already had and improve balancing classes, all this game needed was a new class the revenant, and give new spells to the base core classes like utilities and that’s it, but we ended up with these specializations that ended up replacing the core builds, no wonder the PvP in this game is a joke now.

Archon.6480:

Oh my gosh, you little whiney babies think the ANet programmers should work for free? They have to feed their children and keep the heat on. One $30.00 expansion in 3 or 4 years? Get a life. You should consider it a donation for them being so nice. Enough said.

Sound logic. I can’t wait for the +2000 stat boost for sPvP in the cash shop. So many people love pay2win mechanics.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Nobody is against expansions giving alternate forms of play. People are expansions giving, in many cases, direct boosts to power. Why are you people still bashing the people who are against the power creep? Are you honestly OK with the ludicrous imbalance even among the elite specializations?

Because most of them seem to be pvers and don’t understand that the issue is not that we object to paying for an expansion, but that the expansion includes classes/traits that are more powerful than in the base game.

If they played all or mainly spvp and realized that GW2 was they only mmo that offered skill-based pvp with a level playing field, then they would also feel the sadness that I do seeing what HoT has brought, not just the power imbalances but also the tragic decline in skill needed to play with these new classes/traits.

P2W:
Buy Items or Equipment in game that make you strongher than any other players (unless he also have it).

Examples:
Buy a GS fhr the warrior that make you able to inflict 200% damage to the enemy players in spvp.
Buy a scepter that grant you +150% direct and condition damage in PvE (with still all the common stats of the item)
Buy an armor that reduce the damage of the enemy players in www by 33%

Items that make you strongher than any other.

The P2W Items aren’t an internal system of the game, only a external power up to make you desire to have it to be strongher than others.

For example isn’t a X grade crafted weapon, that will make you strongher than others but is still a internal mechanism of the Game itself.

An Expansion is NOT a P2W.
An Expansion can make you obtain things better than the Old accounts but isn’t a P2W situation why is a internal System of the Game, only a New one added with the Expansion.

Just to say, if you buy now the game you will not buy the basic game for X and then the expansion for another X amount of cash. You buy directly the Full Version of the Game, why the game is changed to fit the Expansion as the new entire game.
______

Silv.9207:

An Expansion can make you obtain things better than the Old accounts

Thank you for agreeing.

Yeah, yeah, we get it. It is paying for advantage over non-paying players, but it’s not p2w because you call it by a different name. And that somehow makes it different.

Is actually easier win if you have the Expansion? Yes.
The Expansion grant you things that are better than the old game version? Yes.
Is a thing that if you have to buy to have? Yes (but if you buy the game now you will have it directly without any other costs)

But in what game a Expansion have not granted to the owners of it (more or less 95% of the players of that game) better things than the old version?

Do you want to buy a expansion if it don’t bring you anything better than the old version?
Have you buyed the HoT expansion if you knowed that any specializzation was at the same level of the old class that you play from 3 years? (or worst?) —spvp Berserker is an exeption why in pve is really better than the old one, the same for www--

Yes, if you buy the expansion you have better things than if you don’t.

The same if you play with a F2P, you can’t pretend to be at the same level of players that buyed the game! (expecially if you buy the game and play with it for years without any monthly cost).

Be serious and don’t panic. there’s still really good builds that work really good for more or less any class. (old engi bunker or decapper, old guardian support, old condi ranger, old well berserker necro, more).
They sometimes work not at the same level of the new shining specializzations but what do you pretend? They’re the only reason for players to buy the expansion!

Silv.9207:

Is actually easier win if you have the Expansion? Yes.
The Expansion grant you things that are better than the old game version? Yes.
Is a thing that if you have to buy to have? Yes (but if you buy the game now you will have it directly without any other costs)

But in what game a Expansion have not granted to the owners of it (more or less 95% of the players of that game) better things than the old version?

Honestly, you’re making this too easy. Think before you post lol.

If you’re a F2P there’s nothing you can say about the game and the expansion, isn’t made for F2P, is just a chance to see how is the game and then buy it if you really want to play it.

If you don’t want to spend 45€ is a choice, but I spend that why I played for 3 uears at lesser than 2€ month, making me in line to buy that game expansion.

If I spend 45€ to buy a expansion I’m rewarded by something a little strongher than what there was before, that happen more or less in every single game of the world (expecially in MMORPG). is more or less a normal thing.

Isn’t a P2W thing why you can still play without the specializzations. Is a little hard, but I seen a player reach the Diamond with his Medi Guardian, and there’s builds that still don’t need the specializzation to work at they’re best. They’re not in “meta” but you can play them and win anyway. I’ve a friend that play the engi bunker/decapper without the scrapper and hold far easy against 2 (and sometimes 3) enemies all the time, using the cleric amulete (then not nerfed by the latest patch).

I’m making easy? Yes.
Is it easy to understand that if you buy an expansion you obtain something more than the old game version? Yes.
That something more is strongher? Yes.
You can still play as an old account player? Yes.
If you do will you have harder fights why you missed a new internal component of the game and then you can’t obtain something that others obtained with the expansion set? Yes
There is still situations where the new specializzations are not used? YES. (www necro is a perfect example, why no one use the reaper in zerg/medium fights and prefer the ranged AoE damage of the DS than the melee range of the Reaper)

If you buy the expansion is not a P2W, just obtain a new whole section of the game, with really good things to use in every game situations.

If you can’t accept that isn’t a problem for me, you can continue and insist to say that it’s a P2W. But it is Not a P2W and you have to understand that new situation.

Silv.9207:

If I spend 45€ to buy a expansion I’m rewarded by something a little strongher than what there was before.

Like I said, you’re making this too easy.

Also, I bought game since it launched and also have HoT. I expected sidegrades, not upgrades. The stupid amounts of power creep brought about by this mess made me all but quit since about mid December.

To clarify, I’m a paying customer and I still don’t like how there’s so much power in the elites that doesn’t exist in the base. Its an expansion, not the base game. Expansion, as in an addition. You can’t expand upon nothing. The base game is the core and should be where most of the meat is at, not the other way around.

If it were at all possible, I’d like to see two equally skilled players go head to head on w.e class they prefer with one guy having access to all 5 core lines and the other guy just using the one elite line and the elite utilities. That’d make for an interesting show.

Also, don’t bring WvWvW into this as if it validates your point. WvWvW fights happen across a huuuuge area with a lot more terrain, obstacles, and people. You’d never take a thief crying about being unviable in a mass WvWvW skirmish seriously, so why would you use it as an example in any other non-WvWvW related case?

Aktium.9506:

I don’t really see the problem. It’s an expansion.

If they had raised the level cap to 100 and introduced a new gear tier that we can call God-tier, both exclusive to the xpac, you wouldn’t have been able to compete with just the core game either.

That’s not p2w, I’ve played many games that actually were, that’s just the way MMO expansions have worked since they became a thing.

The point is it affects both PvP and WvW.

If the new elite specializations just affected PvE there wouldn’t be a problem, but they don’t. That means you have people who have bought HoT fighting those who bought the original game and new FTP people – which makes the whole thing biased.

True, it’s not big pay to win as some other games are, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t pay to win.

Proportionately it may not be a lot of cash but not everyone can afford to pay. Note that I upgraded 3 accounts, so I do have a little money to ‘burn’ and I still think it unfair.

It would have been much better to leave the elite specializations out of PvP and WvW or give them to everyone in PvP and WvW free.

They couldn’t raise the level cap, the uproar would make this little storm in a teacup look like a spit in the ocean. GW1 started with a lvl 20 cap, it still has that. People moved to GW2 because anet promised that there would never be a level cap raise. To be absolutely honest if they changed that I would be out of this game instantly.

Complaining over a game that is p2w or not is like admitting you dont know if the game is a business….
At least the xpac is relatively cheap. There are way worse contenders out there, so yeah, you should count yourself lucky. Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Complaining over a game that is p2w or not is like admitting you dont know if the game is a business….
At least the xpac is relatively cheap. There are way worse contenders out there, so yeah, you should count yourself lucky. Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

The only fair argument in favour of HoT’s power creep so far.

I get that it isn’t expensive, it just shouldn’t be the way it is in sPvP. Especially since it really detracts from the fun for both parties. I don’t feel any sort of accomplishment when I’m on my dragon hunter and win a 2v1 vs two core players. I don’t feel any sort of accomplishment for escaping a near death situation on my thief thanks to unhindered spam. The list goes on, but I’m sure you understand.

Stand The Wall.6987:

Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

We’ll see about that when the next expac arrives.
And the “relatively cheap” isn’t really. It’s quite expensive, in fact (though i agree that it may be relative).

Astralporing.1957:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

We’ll see about that when the next expac arrives.
And the “relatively cheap” isn’t really. It’s quite expensive, in fact (though i agree that it may be relative).

My expectation is the next Expac will include new elite specs of equivalent power to current elite specs.

I think it’s fairly obvious from how elite specs are implemented that they want everyone to run 1 elite spec + 2 core specs, with elite specs being considered a “subclass” or “advanced class” of the main core class.

“Technically every MMORPG in the history of ever was ‘Pay to Win’ due to the newly added Levels, Gear, Etc.. from expansions.”

Some one already said it… it’s not Pay to Win if it’s new content from an expansion. It’s expected.

GW2 is not pay to win… definitely not like other TRUE P2W games out there. How is this even an argument?

Crinn.7864:

Astralporing.1957:

Stand The Wall.6987:

Also you dont have to pay repetitively to stay on top.

We’ll see about that when the next expac arrives.
And the “relatively cheap” isn’t really. It’s quite expensive, in fact (though i agree that it may be relative).

My expectation is the next Expac will include new elite specs of equivalent power to current elite specs.

Well, my expectations (based on what devs said, no less) was that the elite specs from the current expac would be of equivalent power to the core classes. Alas, that didn’t happen. And if people think, that it’s normal for elite specs to be better, because they come in an expac, then it would also be normal for those coming in a next expac to be even better.

This is a dangerous way of thinking.

Saiyan.1704:

“Technically every MMORPG in the history of ever was ‘Pay to Win’ due to the newly added Levels, Gear, Etc.. from expansions.”

Some one already said it… it’s not Pay to Win if it’s new content from an expansion. It’s expected.

GW2 is not pay to win… definitely not like other TRUE P2W games out there. How is this even an argument?

How it is an argument? You have answered yourself already, by admitting that it actually is p2w, it’s just “expected” p2w.

This argument again.

Let’s get some things straight here. Buying an expansion is not considered “pay 2 win”, it’s pay to progress, especially in regards to pve. When you get an expansion and move on to the new content you are leaving behind those who did not, you are not “winning” over these players, you are not getting an advantage over those players, you are continuing your own progression. This is the biggest mistake people are making with this argument.

Pay 2 win is when you pay for an upgrade to get an advantage over players around you, for pve this really has no effect other than the player paying reaches the goals faster over others, but you both can reach that goal. It has a huge effect on pvp as that is always a competition between players, for comparison it’s basically having people taking steroids in real sports to get an advantage over their competition.

Here’s the difference between expansions for most other mmo’s and gw2 in regards to pvp. In most other mmo’s they would raise the level caps, they would introduce new skills/traits/talents in those new levels, and players who get the expansion will move into their own level brackets away from players who don’t get the expansion.

So in the end they don’t have an advantage over those who didn’t get the expansion because they’re not even competing with each other, everyone with or without the expansion has access to the same stuff so it’s a “level” playing field. Yes to stay competitive and at the top especially in areas such as the arena, you need to buy the expansion to get to the top level, but again that is not p2w, you are not paying for an advantage, that is paying to progress with others who got the expansion.

For gw2 they are setup differently in that you don’t gain levels in pvp, everyone is just scaled to 80 and all pvp players play together, from f2p, b2p, and expansion players, they all play spvp together in the same pool, there is no hard separation like other mmo expansions. Yes there is mmr and season ranks now, but those reset, and there is no hard line between core and expansion players.

So here is the problem in regards to pvp. Right now some, if not most elite specs are better than their core specs, so expansion players are seen to have an advantage over others now who are still on f2p/b2p. Players feel they cannot be competitive with most core specs now unless they upgrade with the expansion, this is why they are considering the expansion elite specs a pay 2 win situation in regards to pvp. All you need to do is take a look at the meta the past three months to see what has happened.

The only way this p2w tag is going to come off is if all specs old and new are better balanced to each other, which will take some time with balance passes, or expansion players are made to play with other expansion players and f2p/b2p play in their own pool as they all will have equal access to what’s provided, but that will likely never happen.

I’m sure more elite specs will be released down the road, what happens if they start releasing them through the gem store? What happens if they too are better than all the other specs? would that not be considered p2w for pvp as well?