I think it would be reasonable if DH player’s couldn’t stack traps. But then it should be implemented to other classes’ traps to maintain mechanical balance.
The thing is that when one DH drops test of faith and a second DH does the same, if his ToF touches the previous one a little bit, the first one will vanish and go back to the first DH without a cooldown. Also it might be good if trap can’t be dropped if another player trap is already activated to prevent double or triple ToF, PoB etc… even after activation, to not let stack the damage. One set of traps deals a considerable ammount of damage to all players during a teamfight.
Also, dodging OUT OF a trap while it is being placed should not activate it. That would tone down the cheap JI/Sword teleport +trap spam technique.
But then I guess that daze could return, but not necessarily, perhaps slow duration increase.
To me it feels like DHs seem even stronger because im seeing so many thieves in matches now and they blow vs DHs.
Had 3 matches last night where I had 2 thieves on my team and enemy had at least 2 DH. I asked if one thief would switch and they said no. I knew what the result was gonna be there and then. All 3 matches. Easy win for enemy.
Ive seen some really good thieves that can really help win a match with their mobility and Plus 1 ability but I would say a very high % of thieves are just plain bad. (at least based on the ones ive seen in my teams and enemy teams)
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Nerf dh traps or if u wont nerf their survivability
Traps have received nothing but nerfs since HoT came out. Most of them aren’t even used as it is right now, anything more will render them unusable entirely.
Nerf dh traps or if u wont nerf their survivability
Traps have received nothing but nerfs since HoT came out. Most of them aren’t even used as it is right now, anything more will render them unusable entirely.
Other games (Cough LoL) don’t take this long to balance one clearly over rewarding class. (I am talking about Guardian/DH class as a whole). They still need to raise the skill ceiling so the class isn’t easy but remains competitive. I don’t play anymore, but I enjoy reading the forums though. Same complaints all the time.
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I think a lot of this discussion isn’t taking into account the fact that DH/Guard has the lowest base health pool in the game. I’m not going to deny DH is powerful right now, and they probably need a couple things looked at, but DH falls really, really fast once you break their defenses. Low base HP also severely limits the choice a DH has for amulets as you’re pretty much forced to take vitality somewhere, meaning you can’t have as many other stats as some classes. There ARE drawbacks to playing DH.
That being said, I’d say traps could maybe use an increase in cast time to start, so it’s not as easy to nuke players with them offensively. I think their power is fine, but they’re a bit too easy to spam currently. I also agree class-stacking is a problem and needs to be addressed, it’s not fun playing a match with 7 DH between 2 teams.
That is a lie. Ele and thieves have same HP pool and they go down way faster than DH. I don’t see them covering entire point in stackable persistent aoe doing backstab damage with secondary utility.
Uhh eles are the last to go in a fight so that is a lie. And if your team lacks a class to counter the ele he can run around 3v1 for quite some time before someone lands a kill.
how about make backstab unblockable? i mean thats pretty much the same thing.
anyway so i decided to be unbiased i had to give DH a try. im in gold….yes i know bad placement matches blah blah blah. ok that aside i went 7-0 to start. then lost 1 then won 2. 9-1.
ive….never….played….DH. i played staff heal guard years ago in WVW thats it. more to come
dragons maw nerf. that would make it ok for me. no way to counterplay that without invuln or huge blocks
Stability? Evade it? Don’t step in it? Block or invuln it also. Realize that by taking dragons maw that DH gave up an invuln and a block so you can basically nuke him out of existence?
how about make backstab unblockable? i mean thats pretty much the same thing.
anyway so i decided to be unbiased i had to give DH a try. im in gold….yes i know bad placement matches blah blah blah. ok that aside i went 7-0 to start. then lost 1 then won 2. 9-1.
ive….never….played….DH. i played staff heal guard years ago in WVW thats it. more to come
only thing I’m bothered with is that their trap CD starts refreshing when they put they on the floor rather than when they are triggered.
Ranger traps work the same way too………
DH traps do 10x the damage.
Only if your dumb enough to stand in them. I really don’t get what’s so hard about not standing in the traps.
Why are you being so ignorant? Your point means melee classes should avoid fighting DH-s right? And even if you are not a melee, take the example of condi mesmer, you can trigger the traps with the clones – but the problem persists, as it’s still impossible to hold / cap against DH-s on small points (90% of nodes in ranked). How big advantage is that?
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only thing I’m bothered with is that their trap CD starts refreshing when they put they on the floor rather than when they are triggered.
Ranger traps work the same way too………
This is not an argument against making their CDs start when they are activated instead of when they are placed down. Its nothing more than an attempt to deflect the problem. All traps and marks need to be updated so that their CD starts when they are activated, not when they are cast. Then balance around that. It just needs to happen already
I hope anet doesnt give any importance to the complains here because if you see a dh and you know what to do they r not op at all. learn to play people. traps can be denied very well. and if you think the class is easy try it out.
I dont get why ppl still think DHs are OP. They’re good in team fights and the symbolic version has good 1v1 ability but they’re slow and do mediocre damage unless you’re forced onto a small point. I used to keep my dh ready as an alt to ranger but its not as important to a team as the 1st ele, druid, and thief. I think its also less important than a necro, but not totally sure.
Low skill floor/ceiling that over rewards players is the problem. Multiple DH’s throwing down traps on a point is absolutely broken at times.
The system is currently balanced at high levels of play where only 1 per each class can be on each team. Now regular seasons do not have the no stack clause and since you can’t 5 man queue anymore you also remove the highly organized factor.
You start to see the problem?
There is no problem as far as DHs are concerned because stacking them is a bad idea. They cant rotate and they do less damage than necros. Their dmg is also easily countered. If youre facing a dh that runs more than 2 traps, just pop your invuln, block, or stab. Get off point if you have to, you can wait out the trap and still prevent a decap. If theyre running only test of faith, they do solid but not great damage. They have significantly more survivability than necros with this set up but significantly less dmg.
DHs are still in the same place as last season. They dont do top dmg, cant beat the true 1v1 champs like druids, and cant rotate. Theyre just pretty good at dmg, and can beat non 1v1 champs in 1v1.
I think removing the daze on traps has changed dragons maw significantly. I have to test more but i think it can be dodged on reaction. Most dhs dont run this anyway.
PvP devs already said they are too rewarding for such a low skill floor.
So in actuality there is a problem even if you refuse to see the truth.
PvP devs already said they are too rewarding for such a low skill floor.
So in actuality there is a problem even if you refuse to see the truth.
Being rewarding for low skill isn’t equal to being op and doesn’t mean that it isn’t easy to play around them.
I agree that DH is insanely easy to play but people in the forums make them up like they can do everything and don’t have a single weakness which is just plain dumb.
I think a lot of this discussion isn’t taking into account the fact that DH/Guard has the lowest base health pool in the game. I’m not going to deny DH is powerful right now, and they probably need a couple things looked at, but DH falls really, really fast once you break their defenses. Low base HP also severely limits the choice a DH has for amulets as you’re pretty much forced to take vitality somewhere, meaning you can’t have as many other stats as some classes. There ARE drawbacks to playing DH.
That being said, I’d say traps could maybe use an increase in cast time to start, so it’s not as easy to nuke players with them offensively. I think their power is fine, but they’re a bit too easy to spam currently. I also agree class-stacking is a problem and needs to be addressed, it’s not fun playing a match with 7 DH between 2 teams.
That is a lie. Ele and thieves have same HP pool and they go down way faster than DH. I don’t see them covering entire point in stackable persistent aoe doing backstab damage with secondary utility.
Uhh eles are the last to go in a fight so that is a lie. And if your team lacks a class to counter the ele he can run around 3v1 for quite some time before someone lands a kill.
That is because eles are usually last target. I actually can kill eles faster than DHs….
the apropiate change on traps is not add a casting time (guardians have bloks to ensure setting it properly), the most apropiate, i think, is shorten the cd of traps, but adding a second cd, longer, on activation, you can replace your unused trap easily, but if activated you cant drop a second in the same place imediatly, and this is the major issue as trap as major point denial, a trap preset on point and replaced imediatly for other on activation
Not only appropriate, but the logical one – its the exact same way they handled gyros. Once, long ago when Anet still loved the class, the gyros went on cooldown as you activated them. Meaning you could pop another once they died. Just like how double DH traps is now, it was unfortunetly considered too OP. Maybe rightfully so. And thus they chopped off their figurative legs.
The only difference is unlike the scrapper, Anet still loves their precious OP DH. So it will be a cold day in hell before we see traps go on cooldown when they are triggered.
Gyros have a set duration once activated and can be destroyed. If no one triggers a trap, how long should the DH have to wait before he can place it somewhere else? This is why trap cooldowns start when placed. What you really want, is for trap cooldowns to be increased, and have the durations nerfed to match the cooldown, so that when it comes off of cooldown the old trap is gone.
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the apropiate change on traps is not add a casting time (guardians have bloks to ensure setting it properly), the most apropiate, i think, is shorten the cd of traps, but adding a second cd, longer, on activation, you can replace your unused trap easily, but if activated you cant drop a second in the same place imediatly, and this is the major issue as trap as major point denial, a trap preset on point and replaced imediatly for other on activation
Not only appropriate, but the logical one – its the exact same way they handled gyros. Once, long ago when Anet still loved the class, the gyros went on cooldown as you activated them. Meaning you could pop another once they died. Just like how double DH traps is now, it was unfortunetly considered too OP. Maybe rightfully so. And thus they chopped off their figurative legs.
The only difference is unlike the scrapper, Anet still loves their precious OP DH. So it will be a cold day in hell before we see traps go on cooldown when they are triggered.
Gyros have a set duration once activated and can be destroyed. If no one triggers a trap, how long should the DH have to wait before he can place it somewhere else? This is why trap cooldowns start when placed. What you really want, is for trap cooldowns to be increased, and have the durations nerfed to match the cooldown, so that when it comes off of cooldown the old trap is gone.
Its simple enough to program in another skill to destroy your traps, putting them on shorter CD (whatever would be left of the actual CD had it been activated as soon as it was placed), which means this “problem” is non existent.
the apropiate change on traps is not add a casting time (guardians have bloks to ensure setting it properly), the most apropiate, i think, is shorten the cd of traps, but adding a second cd, longer, on activation, you can replace your unused trap easily, but if activated you cant drop a second in the same place imediatly, and this is the major issue as trap as major point denial, a trap preset on point and replaced imediatly for other on activation
Not only appropriate, but the logical one – its the exact same way they handled gyros. Once, long ago when Anet still loved the class, the gyros went on cooldown as you activated them. Meaning you could pop another once they died. Just like how double DH traps is now, it was unfortunetly considered too OP. Maybe rightfully so. And thus they chopped off their figurative legs.
The only difference is unlike the scrapper, Anet still loves their precious OP DH. So it will be a cold day in hell before we see traps go on cooldown when they are triggered.
Gyros have a set duration once activated and can be destroyed. If no one triggers a trap, how long should the DH have to wait before he can place it somewhere else? This is why trap cooldowns start when placed. What you really want, is for trap cooldowns to be increased, and have the durations nerfed to match the cooldown, so that when it comes off of cooldown the old trap is gone.
Oh that is simple – an eternity. So no, I dont want that. Traps can stay. Heres what I would like to see:
- Trap is placed, skill is replaced with “remote trigger trap”.
- Trap will remain on the ground untill triggered manually, by an enemy player, or if the DH gets beyond 5000-10000ish range (shorter in sPvP, longer in WvW/PvE, maybe should be even lower to 2000-6000 or something, poor with distances).
- When triggered in any scenario above, trap goes on cd.
Simple as that. This stops the hideously OP double tap while not really affecting anything else. Now, if the trap damage need to be tweaked is another matter…
Oh that is simple – an eternity. So no, I dont want that. Traps can stay. Heres what I would like to see:
- Trap is placed, skill is replaced with “remote trigger trap”.
- Trap will remain on the ground untill triggered manually, by an enemy player, or if the DH gets beyond 5000-10000ish range (shorter in sPvP, longer in WvW/PvE, maybe should be even lower to 2000-6000 or something, poor with distances).
- When triggered in any scenario above, trap goes on cd.
Simple as that. This stops the hideously OP double tap while not really affecting anything else. Now, if the trap damage need to be tweaked is another matter…
Totally agree with this. Having a range limit or a remote self trigger is a good idea. Make it so self triggering a trap does not give the DH the boons/heal from the trap. Only triggering by enemies gives boons.
Or have it so when a trap is triggered it goes on an additional 5 sec CD before that trap can be used again.
Your typical average gamer -
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I don’t even bother asking for nerfs anymore. There’s always going to be some method for cheap, easy wins. I’d rather it just stay as it is so we can develop effective counters and weed out the players that dont want to understand the buttons.
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I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
The counter to DH stacking is playing mobility class comp (swapping before match if need be)/map rotation knowledge of team. The issue here is map rotation/map awareness tends to only be known by the “higher” skill end which also thinks DHs are mostly a joke at that level.
only thing I’m bothered with is that their trap CD starts refreshing when they put they on the floor rather than when they are triggered.
Ranger traps work the same way too………
DH traps do 10x the damage.
Only if your dumb enough to stand in them. I really don’t get what’s so hard about not standing in the traps.
Why are you being so ignorant? Your point means melee classes should avoid fighting DH-s right? And even if you are not a melee, take the example of condi mesmer, you can trigger the traps with the clones – but the problem persists, as it’s still impossible to hold / cap against DH-s on small points (90% of nodes in ranked). How big advantage is that?
I’m not, take skills/wrapons that set the traps off, I fight DH on point just fine with melee classes. There traps are not that big of a problem, here, umm give you an easy way of doing it, if your a rev, take hammer, one of the hammer skills will set of all the traps when used, sword 3 also sets of the traps, with the hammer you will not take any damage, and the DH has its DPS reduced, sword 3 will set them off and you ignore some of the damage. Allowing you to fight on point and blow the traps leaving the DH with a lot of skills on recharge. See simple when you think about a fight instead of just running in a dropping. See, I’m mot ignorant, I just work with the tools I have to over come a problem that is no longer a problem. Every class has a way around the traps. It’s up to player to work out what that is. If you can’t then maybe, just maybe your not as good as you think you are at PVP.
only thing I’m bothered with is that their trap CD starts refreshing when they put they on the floor rather than when they are triggered.
Ranger traps work the same way too………
This is not an argument against making their CDs start when they are activated instead of when they are placed down. Its nothing more than an attempt to deflect the problem. All traps and marks need to be updated so that their CD starts when they are activated, not when they are cast. Then balance around that. It just needs to happen already
Asking for the CD’s to start when the traps are triggered pits them at a disadvantage. Everyone else’s skills start to recharge on use, not on when the skill is triggered, your solution is not a solution it’s more work for ANet. But you don’t hate right? You just want your “pro” skills to shine through because you simply can not handle one class. I hate that stealth is a thing in this game. But I don’t want it removed from the game, as far as I’m concerned anyone who uses stealth is bad at PvP and needs to hide and get in free hits, but I’ve learned how to handle these players, I find that they are predictable 90% of the time and i know how to deal with them and normally they end up as a free kill.
i never played guardian in pvp as its not my playstyle and ive been playing since gw1 and 2 release.
i decided to try it 2 days ago. 12-2. never before played. hmmmm also im in gold but thats neither here nor there. class is cheeze right now bc of cap points being so small
i never played guardian in pvp as its not my playstyle and ive been playing since gw1 and 2 release.
i decided to try it 2 days ago. 12-2. never before played. hmmmm also im in gold but thats neither here nor there. class is cheeze right now bc of cap points being so small
I love it when people quote numbers like this but in my experience people exaggerate just a tad. Post your API link with pvp stats. Show me that you have only ever played total 14 matches on guardian (that’s ranked and unranked) with the 12-2 rating and i’ll believe you. Otherwise the old adage Pics or it didn’t happen apply.
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Asking for the CD’s to start when the traps are triggered pits them at a disadvantage.
… So? The game already have skills that work like this and traps – all traps – should work like this to begin with.
the only reason traps have been given a pass for years is because they are generally weak and effect based (condi) instead of having insane power damage multipliers.
Turrets work like this and it didnt stop Anet from nerfing them to the ground as well. But booohooo dont nerf my precious DH.
Jokes aside, traps aren’t as bad as people say, but they still reward DH players with a hefty amount of damage on utilities with very little cast time, and are invisible. I can see why they’re being complained about, and for classes that… depend on melee to be viable in pvp, having a lone guard contest a point solo for because of trap drops is more than a little irritating.
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I used to think (build op, pls nerf) like you, but then I took a nerf to the knee.
Ragnarox yes they are in PVP not WVW….. whats the diff? forced to play on point and cap areas basically same size as traps.
tech u are right they are not OP but they kinda are in SPVP bv of point caps.
semantics anyone?
Then you need to play better. Traps guards are free kills 1vs1.
only if you are dumb. then you fight for a while yes you should win 1v1 (unless they have dragons maw …class dependent) but they got 15-20 points off you being a tardo trying to fight on a small point with traps.
Ragnarox yes they are in PVP not WVW….. whats the diff? forced to play on point and cap areas basically same size as traps.
tech u are right they are not OP but they kinda are in SPVP bv of point caps.
semantics anyone?
Then you need to play better. Traps guards are free kills 1vs1.
only if you are dumb. then you fight for a while yes you should win 1v1 (unless they have dragons maw …class dependent) but they got 15-20 points off you being a tardo trying to fight on a small point with traps.
Dragon Maw its a win if the guard its the opponent xd.
Dh should be capped at 1 per side per match or else there should be a limit on trap stacking or diminishing returns. A-net is kittened when it comes to powerful aoe. One plus year later and they still haven’t resolved the brain dead nature of DH. I’m not even saying they are op in general just mindless to play and a problem the more of them there are.
Personally I don’t have a problem with DH/Guardian (I main mesmer). Nor do I have any problem with any other class. I agree that the classes are terribly unbalanced, but do not have knowledge of all classes to give any constructive feedback on how to fix that.
What I do have problem with, like many others, is class stacking. Two or more of any class can make a match problematic. Truly don’t understand why the same conditions for pro league aren’t applied in Ranked.
Leave Unranked and Hotjoin as they are, but when changes are made to pro league they should automatically be applied in ranked.
DH’s are the Sith Sorcerer’s of SWTOR (at launch). All the morons who played them said they are perfectly fine. My friend creates one, does pvp matches in only underwear and gets top stats across the board. The skill level required for them was laughable in very similar ways I see with DH’s now. This is why there are so many, it’s not they maybe OP (I think they are slightly). It is the fact any joe smuck can play them with their eyes closed and this is exactly what is happening. They are too easy to play and have too greater reward for doing so.
Ragnarox yes they are in PVP not WVW….. whats the diff? forced to play on point and cap areas basically same size as traps.
tech u are right they are not OP but they kinda are in SPVP bv of point caps.
semantics anyone?
Then you need to play better. Traps guards are free kills 1vs1.
only if you are dumb. then you fight for a while yes you should win 1v1 (unless they have dragons maw …class dependent) but they got 15-20 points off you being a tardo trying to fight on a small point with traps.
Lol ok, because you can see how I play. 15-20 are nothing. A kill and cap make them up in a few moments. Then I just re-eat the DH when he comes back. In T3 silver I can home my own in a 2vs1 hell sometimes it can take 3 people to bring me down, and I don’t use traps, if you can out think your opponents’, and have skill,(I’m not the best in the world, but I seem to be doing very well) you should be able to just face roll a trap guard, have 2-3 attack you and 1-2 of them be a trap guard yeah, you will lose. Most of the time a skilled player can make the other team wast players trying to kill one guy. I’m normally that guy they are all trying to kill.
Asking for the CD’s to start when the traps are triggered pits them at a disadvantage. Everyone else’s skills start to recharge on use, not on when the skill is triggered, your solution is not a solution it’s more work for ANet. But you don’t hate right? You just want your “pro” skills to shine through because you simply can not handle one class. I hate that stealth is a thing in this game. But I don’t want it removed from the game, as far as I’m concerned anyone who uses stealth is bad at PvP and needs to hide and get in free hits, but I’ve learned how to handle these players, I find that they are predictable 90% of the time and i know how to deal with them and normally they end up as a free kill.
Its the stacking that is the issue, one or two DH’s can be handled (2 I may lose to if they have a bit of map awareness), but the issue isn’t so much DH’s as stacking, yeah, if there are 3-4 DH’s and you have a team with a lot of map awareness and different classes, they are beatable. I play scrapper and Elixir X is great (as long as there aren’t thieves on the other team, in which case I prefer Sneak gyro simply for the F5 ability) against up to 2 DH’s, but I haven’t played too many ranked matches this season due to time constraints and am currently languishing in Bronze where it is far too easy to come up against at least 3 DH’s per match (It has happened in about a quarter of my matches), which at that level means a nearly certain loss due to others on my team with no awareness/ going afk as they have seen the DH’s and just given up..
The only solution I can see is to stop class stacking, no m ore than 2 of a class in any team, simple solution that ANet have already implemented elsewhere, so not much to ask for really..
Asking for the CD’s to start when the traps are triggered pits them at a disadvantage. Everyone else’s skills start to recharge on use, not on when the skill is triggered, your solution is not a solution it’s more work for ANet. But you don’t hate right? You just want your “pro” skills to shine through because you simply can not handle one class. I hate that stealth is a thing in this game. But I don’t want it removed from the game, as far as I’m concerned anyone who uses stealth is bad at PvP and needs to hide and get in free hits, but I’ve learned how to handle these players, I find that they are predictable 90% of the time and i know how to deal with them and normally they end up as a free kill.
Its the stacking that is the issue, one or two DH’s can be handled (2 I may lose to if they have a bit of map awareness), but the issue isn’t so much DH’s as stacking, yeah, if there are 3-4 DH’s and you have a team with a lot of map awareness and different classes, they are beatable. I play scrapper and Elixir X is great (as long as there aren’t thieves on the other team, in which case I prefer Sneak gyro simply for the F5 ability) against up to 2 DH’s, but I haven’t played too many ranked matches this season due to time constraints and am currently languishing in Bronze where it is far too easy to come up against at least 3 DH’s per match (It has happened in about a quarter of my matches), which at that level means a nearly certain loss due to others on my team with no awareness/ going afk as they have seen the DH’s and just given up..
The only solution I can see is to stop class stacking, no m ore than 2 of a class in any team, simple solution that ANet have already implemented elsewhere, so not much to ask for really..
How though? Unless ANet stops allowing people to swap classes during a match then it would be impossible to stop class stacking. Even if they did do that though, queues would just become longer as the system would have to find no more than 2 of each class, and make sure they are on opposite teams while still keeping the MMR of each team roughly equal.
How though? Unless ANet stops allowing people to swap classes during a match then it would be impossible to stop class stacking. Even if they did do that though, queues would just become longer as the system would have to find no more than 2 of each class, and make sure they are on opposite teams while still keeping the MMR of each team roughly equal.
no, there is a way, another method of mm
the actual is based in take random players and make groups of five and after searching another group of five random to matchup
take the alternative aproach take a group of 10 or more (better more) , make calculations mmr and classes and release a match after give some mark to discarded ones to be preferents on next iteration of mm (this not is a full solution to class staking, but will solution class staking in one only side, you get 4 guards: 2 to each team , not 4-0 or 1-3)
