Guild Wars 2

I thought I would create a separate topic with regards to the direction ANET is taking with regards to new skills introduced to the game. In the CDI thread that deals with the upcoming reward changes, both John Corpening and Josh Davis had the following to say about upcoming skills:

John Corpening.9847:

Hey All,

Regarding new skills, PvP will continue to have all existing skills unlocked for players. Only new skills will require unlocks. The number of skills currently in the game can be intimidating for new players. We would like to allow them some time to learn the base set while they work towards unlocking the new skills.

Josh Davis.6015:

New skills being added to the game will be unlockable via skill points. This also applies to new utilities and elites. For PvP specifically, this means you’ll need to purchase Tomes of Knowledge to level up your character and unlock skill points.

I would like to open this thread to create discussion regarding this change to the way we have access to skills in sPvP.

Personally I feel that this is the complete wrong direction to go in. Not only does it put new players at a disadvantage when they first enter the mists, it gimps people who have not played for some time (defeating the whole mantra of being able to leave and come back to GW2 without being too far behind). By forcing us to have to unlock new skills as they are released (which will eventually be gold based, according to Josh’s mentioning of Tomes of Knowledge from vendors) they are not only creating a form of vertical progression (people with meta skills vs people without) they are adding in another grind to unlock new skills as well as a slight pay to win (gems to gold for skills faster than players who earn them via playing).

One of the best parts of sPvP in my opinion – and one thing that sets it apart from PvP in any other MMO I’ve played, is the fact that when you enter the mists you are on equal footing with every other player. I want to see this preserved moving forward, as this is the main thing that attracted me to it in the first place.

I can see how maybe the unlock system is a slight attempt to monetize sPvP by getting players with little patience or time to buy gems to convert to gold in order to unlock more skills. Don’t get me wrong, I realize ANET is a business and more cash flow from the gem store to sPvP will aid in its development but I really think if they want us to have progression in terms of skills they should consider implementing a system involving unique skill skins. These could be re-colourings, festive skins or anything the art team could dream up. They could not only be potentially earned through sPvP ranks / gold etc but also possibly added to the gem store as individual purchases.

I hope that in the future any form of skill based progression in sPvP will be purely cosmetic and not prevent players from having access to all skills at all times regardless of financial status or time played. Access to skills is paramount to competition in sPvP and competition is what keeps a community and game healthy, happy and most importantly alive.

What are your thoughts? Please keep it civil!

Honestly? I think it’s fine. GW1 was similar in keeping the difference between players relatively low in PvP, and they still had people buying skills.

Oprah.1347:

Personally I feel that this is the complete wrong direction to go in. Not only does it put new players at a disadvantage when they first enter the mists, it gimps people who have not played for some time

In all likeliness, returning players will have a big stock of unused skill points to instantly unlock every new interesting skill. And I see enough complaints here about experienced players that get matched with new players and lose to mean that them having or not the new skills won’t matter much since you don’t want to play with them anyway !

I enjoyed working on the account unlocks in Gw1, not sure how it will be here though.

stof.9341:

Oprah.1347:

Personally I feel that this is the complete wrong direction to go in. Not only does it put new players at a disadvantage when they first enter the mists, it gimps people who have not played for some time

In all likeliness, returning players will have a big stock of unused skill points to instantly unlock every new interesting skill. And I see enough complaints here about experienced players that get matched with new players and lose to mean that them having or not the new skills won’t matter much since you don’t want to play with them anyway !

Where will they get the stock of unused skill points when they’re not playing?

Can we buy hats yet? I just want hats like TF2

kirito.4138:

Can we buy hats yet? I just want hats like TF2

After we get push type control point maps (which I’d personally love).

You assume the unlocked skills are stronger than the current ones.

If any, new players don’t have as much choice, which they dont need anyway, there are enough skills and traits to choose from atm.

Alissah.9281:

You assume the unlocked skills are stronger than the current ones.

If any, new players don’t have as much choice, which they dont need anyway, there are enough skills and traits to choose from atm.

Whether or not it makes the players stronger or not is irrelevant. The point is that PvP is it’s own world and should be treated as such. PvE is based on unlocking skills and working to get stronger gear and skills. PvP is somewhere where someone can come into the area and literally be on the same standing point as anyone else other than looks. Those of us who only play to PvP are already forced to do the ridiculous PvE quest every time we make a new character (more times than you would think) just to PvP. Now on top of this each alt or new character we make will need to unlock all the other skills to have the same build diversity, which is not a good direction for PvP.

I think the real problem here, at least for me, is that ANET devs are not hearing us. I read every posts in CDIs topics and I didnt see anyone complain about skills in pvp are easy to get or I want progression in skills in pvp.

BUT what we can see very often in this pvp forum is:

a) We want class size normalization in pvp;
b) We want Templates.

This two things are the reason why people do 2~3 chars with the same profession and instead of fixing this 1st they implement (BEFORE) a system with vertical progression in ours chars.

Requiring skills be unlocked in PvP would be an extraordinarily bad change, for reasons already written down.

This change would violate the spirit of the PvP we were led to believe would be in the game. I’m swimming in skill points, but in principle alone I cannot abide the idea that new players or players with many alts have less choices than I do in the game mode, instead of being able to log in and automatically be equal to me.

If new skills are added some of these could presumably change the meta – and I cannot accept the possibility that a new player might be forced into using less powerful or useful skills simply by virtue of not having played the game as long as I have.

It’s ironic how the original team from GW1 wasn’t brought over to GW2, and the GW2 team (sPvP?) is now trying to emulate it.

But they are only making things worse.

I’m alright with it, so long as you can get these unlocks by doing only PvP, and that they aren’t insanely hard to get that way. If we’re talking several weeks of play just to get a single skill unlock on one character, then that’s way too much.

cymerdown.4103:

I’m alright with it, so long as you can get these unlocks by doing only PvP, and that they aren’t insanely hard to get that way. If we’re talking several weeks of play just to get a single skill unlock on one character, then that’s way too much.

If I had to guess, the new skills will follow current skill point trends and cost 3-6 skill points. For anyone with a level 2 character in PvE, it’d be trivially easy to quickly get those points from level ups, buy that one skill, and then have it in PvP on patch day.

And then there are all of the tomes already dropped from achievement point chests and other sources, and the “level to 20 or gain 20 skill points” scrolls given out around the one year anniversary. If you have any of these, you’re already golden.

Personally, I feel like it’s the wrong way to go. It will give veteran players with a lot of glory a big advantage over casuals. The new heals are gonna bring a lot of unbalance into the meta.

Depends on whether the new skills are universally more powerful than their alternatives. For that, I’ll have to reserve judgment for when I see them.

The change goes against everything that GW2 PvP stands for (skill > gear/equipment, everyone is on an equal playing field) and I will be seriously disappointed in Anet if it goes through.

Guild Wars had a similar system where you had to unlock items and skills over time through Balthazar Faction. It worked well there so I don’t think it is a bad approach from start.

What worries me more is that in Guild Wars unlocking went fairly quick but in this game progress is a nightmare made of grind and more grind. It is pretty much the defining factor of WvW/PvE nowadays. So when someone says he wants to mesh the game modes together in a better way, I have a very bad feeling about it.

I do 99% spvp and 1% WvW and have 150 unused skill points on each of my 2 mains. Especially with the ability to buy tomes of knowledge and with nothing else to spend skill points on it seems fine. Pvp players can start feeling like they are part of the game again with some of the new changes.

Skills are not being designed just for pvp. Skills have a viability rate of like 25% or less on most professions so I think we are in for some major disappointment if we are worrying about this stuff

I’m ok with this…
It was sort of the same in guild wars 1 except that it was with some kind of pvp currency.
And the fact that there were 1319 skills in the game made you really look before you bought anything..

Think about.. if we get even more skills later on.. like 50 for every class..
It’s going to be a though time for new pvpers to see what skill does what..
This system would help them a lot.

Definitely a horrible idea.

For me, the greatest appeal for sPvP in this game is the ideal that everybody should be able to compete on a level playing field regardless of time investment.

Please don’t make sPvP players, new or old, grind their way to equality.

If they release new <<characters>> like LoL instead of <<new spells>> every 1 month , would that make you more happier ?

Balance issues aside, I don’t see any issue with this, as long as they’re not to hard to get. Just by playing pvp normally, a player should get more than enough skill points to cover those skills, unless Anet decides they should have some ridiculous costs.

As I mentioned in the CDI thread, this change is beyond stupid.
To the people who think "Well, it’s not that bad", consider this:

1. If you can unlock all the skills really quickly, then what’s the change for? It has no impact on the game (except a principle one), and thus, there’s no reason to add it to the game and spend resources on it.
2. If it’s difficult to unlock the skills, then new players, or alts, will be at a distinctive disadvantage from the get-go. It removes the even playing field that sPvP was advertised to have, and as such, it should not be added.

I see absolutely no benefit in adding this to the game. ’The number of skills are intimidating for new players’? You kidding me? Exactly how many new players do we see in sPvP, that have never set foot in PvE first? Zero. Exactly zero. And if someone actually does, he’s not some PvE scrub who can’t read skill descriptions.

no

just no

too lazy to explain – most things have been said already

no

DiogoSilva.7089:

unless Anet decides they should have some ridiculous costs.

Like 25 skill points for a useless healing skill?

Adian.8756:

As I mentioned in the CDI thread, this change is beyond stupid.
To the people who think “Well, it’s not that bad”, consider this:

1. If you can unlock all the skills really quickly, then what’s the change for? It has no impact on the game (except a principle one), and thus, there’s no reason to add it to the game and spend resources on it.
2. If it’s difficult to unlock the skills, then new players, or alts, will be at a distinctive disadvantage from the get-go. It removes the even playing field that sPvP was advertised to have, and as such, it should not be added.

I see absolutely no benefit in adding this to the game. ‘The number of skills are intimidating for new players’? You kidding me? Exactly how many new players do we see in sPvP, that have never set foot in PvE first? Zero. Exactly zero. And if someone actually does, he’s not some PvE scrub who can’t read skill descriptions.

I’m pretty sure it’s in there for the principle; both for the progression crowd, and as precedent in the future when they add however many new skills. I’m fine with this because it isn’t as bad as Ascended.

Proven.2854:

Adian.8756:

As I mentioned in the CDI thread, this change is beyond stupid.
To the people who think “Well, it’s not that bad”, consider this:

1. If you can unlock all the skills really quickly, then what’s the change for? It has no impact on the game (except a principle one), and thus, there’s no reason to add it to the game and spend resources on it.
2. If it’s difficult to unlock the skills, then new players, or alts, will be at a distinctive disadvantage from the get-go. It removes the even playing field that sPvP was advertised to have, and as such, it should not be added.

I see absolutely no benefit in adding this to the game. ‘The number of skills are intimidating for new players’? You kidding me? Exactly how many new players do we see in sPvP, that have never set foot in PvE first? Zero. Exactly zero. And if someone actually does, he’s not some PvE scrub who can’t read skill descriptions.

I’m pretty sure it’s in there for the principle; both for the progression crowd, and as precedent in the future when they add however many new skills. I’m fine with this because it isn’t as bad as Ascended.

What I meant with “principle” is that; adding skill-unlocks to sPvP goes against what was initially advertised. We were promised PvP with a totally even playing field, and skill-unlocks goes against that principle.
Also, I can’t believe people are “okay” with bad things, as long as something worse is there. What the? They should never add bad things to the game – ever.

It’s probably just so new players aren’t overloaded by skills as they become more numerous. I’ll be surprised if it takes more than 15 matches for a class to unlock…

Phaeton.9582:

It’s probably just so new players aren’t overloaded by skills as they become more numerous. I’ll be surprised if it takes more than 15 matches for a class to unlock...

I already addressed that in my first post. There are no "new players". Pretty much everyone starts out in PvE, and will learn all the skills there. And if some oddball happens to go straight for PvP, he’s probably an avid PvP’er from another game, and would want all skills from the get-go.

And lets just use 15 matches pr. skill as an example. Imagine that ANet have added 20 skills by the end of 2014 (so, in a years time). If someone was to buy the game then, he’d have to play 300 matches in order to unlock all the skills. 300 matches before he has an even playing field to the rest of us. This is straight up vertical progression in a game advertised the opposite.

Again, I can’t believe you’re okay with skill-unlocks, merely because it’s the lesser of two evil.

Making it like gw1 it’s just stupid because in gw1 you were not going to switch class/build so often (Because of buffs, fotm, nerfs and so on too) so if you were new to pvp you could unlock skills fot the build you wanted to play and play it for months and more, here you often find yourself to roll totally different specs every week and if you don’t have a stable team even more, i don’t give a kitten since i have almost 2kk glory but for new players this is going to be a problem. In order to win in this pvp you must adapt at every patch, to adapt you need to unlock new skills, and if you can’t you won’t adapt…so you won’t get points to unlock skills…and so on..

Oprah.1347:

I thought I would create a separate topic with regards to the direction ANET is taking with regards to new skills introduced to the game. In the CDI thread that deals with the upcoming reward changes, both John Corpening and Josh Davis had the following to say about upcoming skills:

John Corpening.9847:

Hey All,

Regarding new skills, PvP will continue to have all existing skills unlocked for players. Only new skills will require unlocks. The number of skills currently in the game can be intimidating for new players. We would like to allow them some time to learn the base set while they work towards unlocking the new skills.

Josh Davis.6015:

New skills being added to the game will be unlockable via skill points. This also applies to new utilities and elites. For PvP specifically, this means you’ll need to purchase Tomes of Knowledge to level up your character and unlock skill points.

I would like to open this thread to create discussion regarding this change to the way we have access to skills in sPvP.

Personally I feel that this is the complete wrong direction to go in. Not only does it put new players at a disadvantage when they first enter the mists, it gimps people who have not played for some time (defeating the whole mantra of being able to leave and come back to GW2 without being too far behind). By forcing us to have to unlock new skills as they are released (which will eventually be gold based, according to Josh’s mentioning of Tomes of Knowledge from vendors) they are not only creating a form of vertical progression (people with meta skills vs people without) they are adding in another grind to unlock new skills as well as a slight pay to win (gems to gold for skills faster than players who earn them via playing).

One of the best parts of sPvP in my opinion – and one thing that sets it apart from PvP in any other MMO I’ve played, is the fact that when you enter the mists you are on equal footing with every other player. I want to see this preserved moving forward, as this is the main thing that attracted me to it in the first place.

I can see how maybe the unlock system is a slight attempt to monetize sPvP by getting players with little patience or time to buy gems to convert to gold in order to unlock more skills. Don’t get me wrong, I realize ANET is a business and more cash flow from the gem store to sPvP will aid in its development but I really think if they want us to have progression in terms of skills they should consider implementing a system involving unique skill skins. These could be re-colourings, festive skins or anything the art team could dream up. They could not only be potentially earned through sPvP ranks / gold etc but also possibly added to the gem store as individual purchases.

I hope that in the future any form of skill based progression in sPvP will be purely cosmetic and not prevent players from having access to all skills at all times regardless of financial status or time played. Access to skills is paramount to competition in sPvP and competition is what keeps a community and game healthy, happy and most importantly alive.

What are your thoughts? Please keep it civil!

As many have mentioned before me this was standard in gw1. It didn’t feel like a gymp it felt soooo great to unlock! It makes you want to play that specific skill you unlocked so as each new skill comes out you gain a deep understanding of its strengths and weaknesses.

You can’t jump the gun and call it a gymp, as the skills won’t even be used in certain metas.

In GW1 it took very short time to get unlocks for skills you wanted.

As long as we can assume that is the case it’s ok. But knowing the new direction of b2p and all that stuff it’s going to take at least month or two to get skills you need, at least unless you’re type of player who grinds just points. That is really bad direction.

The fact that it featured in GW1 is irrelevant, in GW2 the entire premise of “Structured PvP” is that every player is on equal footing with access to all gear, traits, and stats with no character equipment/stat advantages. Introducing the proposed system completely undermines that premise.

There were a LOT of great things about GW1 PvP that didn’t make it into it’s sequal but but should have, but skill unlocking is not one of them.

Incurafy.6329:

The fact that it featured in GW1 is irrelevant, in GW2 the entire premise of “Structured PvP” is that every player is on equal footing with access to all gear, traits, and stats with no character equipment/stat advantages. Introducing the proposed system completely undermines that premise.

There were a LOT of great things about GW1 PvP that didn’t make it into it’s sequal but but should have, but skill unlocking is not one of them.

If you think deeply into the fact that new players will have access to a few core skills rather than an overwhelming amount of skills doesn’t mean they will be at a disadvantage but rather have a chance to learn their class by learning with ‘safe’, ‘core’ builds.

It also doesn’t suggest that original builds will be any worse off than up-and-coming builds. And finally, new players shouldn’t be in tpvp.

As for the time it will take to unlock new skills I highly doubt it will take long in pvp judging from the fact that it doesn’t take long to gather skill points in pve and they are trying to blend the two.

aussieheals.6843:

Incurafy.6329:

The fact that it featured in GW1 is irrelevant, in GW2 the entire premise of “Structured PvP” is that every player is on equal footing with access to all gear, traits, and stats with no character equipment/stat advantages. Introducing the proposed system completely undermines that premise.

There were a LOT of great things about GW1 PvP that didn’t make it into it’s sequal but but should have, but skill unlocking is not one of them.

If you think deeply into the fact that new players will have access to a few core skills rather than an overwhelming amount of skills doesn’t mean they will be at a disadvantage but rather have a chance to learn their class by learning with ‘safe’, ‘core’ builds.

It also doesn’t suggest that original builds will be any worse off than up-and-coming builds. And finally, new players shouldn’t be in tpvp.

As for the time it will take to unlock new skills I highly doubt it will take long in pvp judging from the fact that it doesn’t take long to gather skill points in pve and they are trying to blend the two.

From my experience there’s no such thing as a “safe, core build” and the concept of one in this game is laughable. The simple fact is that the premise of this game’s PvP has always been character skills/gear/stat equality so that skill is what wins the game, not who managed to grind the latest armours (or in this case skills, assuming that new and more powerful builds are going to arise from them eventually as they did numerous times in GW1) first.

Removing the equal playing field goes against the premise of PvP that this game was builton and advertised as during its development and post-launch. There is literally no advantage to adding skill unlocking whatsoever besides allowing Anet to allow people to buy the skills outright with gems.

I’m not usually this negative about Anet’s PvP decisions, but this one is an absolute disappointment.

EDIT: Almost forget to mention that the meta builds have changed numerous times and previous builds are no longer viable. The exact same will happen with builds created using new skills and the current builds, regardless of whether or not they require unlocking. To say otherwise is naive.

Incurafy.6329:

aussieheals.6843:

Incurafy.6329:

The fact that it featured in GW1 is irrelevant, in GW2 the entire premise of “Structured PvP” is that every player is on equal footing with access to all gear, traits, and stats with no character equipment/stat advantages. Introducing the proposed system completely undermines that premise.

There were a LOT of great things about GW1 PvP that didn’t make it into it’s sequal but but should have, but skill unlocking is not one of them.

If you think deeply into the fact that new players will have access to a few core skills rather than an overwhelming amount of skills doesn’t mean they will be at a disadvantage but rather have a chance to learn their class by learning with ‘safe’, ‘core’ builds.

It also doesn’t suggest that original builds will be any worse off than up-and-coming builds. And finally, new players shouldn’t be in tpvp.

As for the time it will take to unlock new skills I highly doubt it will take long in pvp judging from the fact that it doesn’t take long to gather skill points in pve and they are trying to blend the two.

From my experience there’s no such thing as a “safe, core build” and the concept of one in this game is laughable. The simple fact is that the premise of this game’s PvP has always been character skills/gear/stat equality so that skill is what wins the game, not who managed to grind the latest armours (or in this case skills, assuming that new and more powerful builds are going to arise from them eventually as they did numerous times in GW1) first.

Removing the equal playing field goes against the premise of PvP that this game was builton and advertised as during its development and post-launch. There is literally no advantage to adding skill unlocking whatsoever besides allowing Anet to allow people to buy the skills outright with gems.

I’m not usually this negative about Anet’s PvP decisions, but this one is an absolute disappointment.

EDIT: Almost forget to mention that the meta builds have changed numerous times and previous builds are no longer viable. The exact same will happen with builds created using new skills and the current builds, regardless of whether or not they require unlocking. To say otherwise is ignorant.

I complain myself about certain aspects of balance in this game but all it takes is 10 minutes of pvp in literally ANY other MMORPG to appreciate how close this game is to balance. Especially after the dec 10 patch. Even if they aren’t apparent ‘safe’ ‘core’ builds at the moment they will be the builds people fall back to if they don’t like or understand the new utilities / weapons that are introduced.

Old builds ’aren’t viable’ because something is OP and makes that build underwhelming. In the ideal world and obvious direction of GW2 that will eventually be the case. Just because a build with new skills becomes the meta doesn’t mean an old ‘safe’ ‘core’ build won’t be a hard counter. A good example is the old trapper vs the once OP spirit build.

Also there is another blatantly obvious benefit to unlocking skills, a feeling of reward for progression!

Adian.8756:

Phaeton.9582:

It’s probably just so new players aren’t overloaded by skills as they become more numerous. I’ll be surprised if it takes more than 15 matches for a class to unlock…

I already addressed that in my first post. There are no “new players”. Pretty much everyone starts out in PvE, and will learn all the skills there. And if some oddball happens to go straight for PvP, he’s probably an avid PvP’er from another game, and would want all skills from the get-go.

And lets just use 15 matches pr. skill as an example. Imagine that ANet have added 20 skills by the end of 2014 (so, in a years time). If someone was to buy the game then, he’d have to play 300 matches in order to unlock all the skills. 300 matches before he has an even playing field to the rest of us. This is straight up vertical progression in a game advertised the opposite.

Again, I can’t believe you’re okay with skill-unlocks, merely because it’s the lesser of two evil.

I meant 15 matches for all the skills though.

This system will probably be so easy it will hardly apply to existing players.

Also have you seen the new healing skills? Arenet may be releasing stuff that appears passive, but all of them have counters that are achieved through the gameplay of the opponent. It seems much of future balance is aimed at reducing skill spam, and emphasizing when and what you hit. Hopefully these released skills will continue to emphasize higher tier gameplay.

Adian.8756:

Phaeton.9582:

It’s probably just so new players aren’t overloaded by skills as they become more numerous. I’ll be surprised if it takes more than 15 matches for a class to unlock…

I already addressed that in my first post. There are no “new players”. Pretty much everyone starts out in PvE, and will learn all the skills there. And if some oddball happens to go straight for PvP, he’s probably an avid PvP’er from another game, and would want all skills from the get-go.

hahaha does anyone else remember all those ‘High ranking WoW players LFG’ when the game was released. A common misconception is that someone good at another PvP game is going to be good at this, it’s a completely different beast. Even some top GvG guilds from gw1 were horrible at gw2 pvp.

TLDR: There are an abundance of new players, the trouble is keeping them around. Overwhelming them with too many skills straight away doesn’t help.

The “new players are overwhelmed with stuff” argument doesn’t sound too convincing to me. You could use it to justify any change without providing sound reasoning.

“8 classes are too overwhelming for new players, so we decided that new players should start with a safe class like the Warrior and work their way to unlocking the other classes.”

“All of these traits are overwhelming new players with too many choices, so they have to unlock them through leveling just like in PvE. So they have a chance to get to know the starting ones.”

Etc.

How would a new player feel going into the game months or years down the line only to find that he has to grind countless points just to have as many choices as older players? It’s this type of situation that sPvP was built to avoid. Why change it now? sPvP is the only place in the game where everyone is on an equal base footing. I’m not convinced this needs altering.

TainoFuerte.8136:

The “new players are overwhelmed with stuff” argument doesn’t sound too convincing to me. You could use it to justify any change without providing sound reasoning.

“8 classes are too overwhelming for new players, so we decided that new players should start with a safe class like the Warrior and work their way to unlocking the other classes.”

“All of these traits are overwhelming new players with too many choices, so they have to unlock them through leveling just like in PvE. So they have a chance to get to know the starting ones.”

I’m going to keep this short and sweet:

1) In WoW as an example, you might unlock 1 to 2 skills every level. With an elementalist you get the staff and get 20 brand new skills all at once. I personally had friends quit from this exact situation. So yes, I personally believe that their should be a change that you are required to level one character to 20 before you can enter pvp.

2) Yes, I think their should be r1 – r10 and r10 – r20 areas that new players start in before being overwhelmed in the general population. I believe this to be a major threat to any new player.

3) Yes, the current amount of traits are overwhelming, their should be multiple options to select from as ‘recommended builds’ to ease new players into the game before venturing on their own theory-crafting ways.

4) I didn’t mention any of these because they are off topic.

TainoFuerte.8136:

How would a new player feel going into the game months or years down the line only to find that he has to grind countless points just to have as many choices as older players? It’s this type of situation that sPvP was built to avoid. Why change it now? sPvP is the only place in the game where everyone is on an equal base footing. I’m not convinced this needs altering.

A new player is going to feel so good that every few rounds they are going to unlock a new skill therefore holding there interest and give them incentive to join the grind. They are going to gain a deep understanding of each skill as it unlocks and therefore assisting them at being great in there class. Not only this but it creates a connection with the character you built up from nothing.

So lets use your example that someone joins years down the track and needs to unlock skills. Even in the current meta there are 8 skills, you can unlock those 8 skills first. Just because there are 2,000,000 skills doesn’t mean you can’t choose which ones you unlock.

Please, view this with an open mind

aussieheals.6843:

4) I didn’t mention any of these because they are off topic.

Not sure why now is a good time, though it looks like you might be more at home in another game. PvE and WvW, at least, do contain some elements like those you described. A consumer that had done some research before purchase would know that the sPvP in this game would be unlike the PvP encountered in many other MMOs by allowing you to be equal to anyone off the bat, with access to everything unlocked.

A new player is going to feel so good that every few rounds they are going to unlock a new skill therefore holding there interest and give them incentive to join the grind. They are going to gain a deep understanding of each skill as it unlocks and therefore assisting them at being great in there class.

Citation needed. I know I’d quit before starting, and I know that’s part of why I haven’t participated in other MMOs and part of why I came to this one, based on doing research on this game before purchase. You’d also have to provide evidence indicating how arbitrarily preventing players from using certain skills would somehow lead them to master skills better as opposed to practicing with said skills by choice.

Not only this but it creates a connection with the character you built up from nothing.

You have PvE and WvW for that, in addition to unlocking ranks or cosmetics in sPvP as symbols of your progress.

So lets use your example that someone joins years down the track and needs to unlock skills. Even in the current meta there are 8 skills, you can unlock those 8 skills first. Just because there are 2,000,000 skills doesn’t mean you can’t choose which ones you unlock.

The player shouldn’t have to unlock them in the first place. He should be able to catch up to the meta instantly and be competitive right off the bat.

Please, view this with an open mind

I keep an open mind – to good ideas.

TainoFuerte.8136:

aussieheals.6843:

4) I didn’t mention any of these because they are off topic.

Not sure why now is a good time, though it looks like you might be more at home in another game. PvE and WvW, at least, do contain some elements like those you described. A consumer that had done some research before purchase would know that the sPvP in this game would be unlike the PvP encountered in many other MMOs by allowing you to be equal to anyone off the bat, with access to everything unlocked.

I think you might be confused friend, I’m happy with the changes coming, you’re not?

TainoFuerte.8136:

A new player is going to feel so good that every few rounds they are going to unlock a new skill therefore holding there interest and give them incentive to join the grind. They are going to gain a deep understanding of each skill as it unlocks and therefore assisting them at being great in there class.

Citation needed. I know I’d quit before starting, and I know that’s part of why I haven’t participated in other MMOs and part of why I came to this one, based on doing research on this game before purchase. You’d also have to provide evidence indicating how arbitrarily preventing players from using certain skills would somehow lead them to master skills better as opposed to practicing with said skills by choice.

Research would indicate that:
1) Everything is subject to change
2) ArenaNet (sometimes lol) provide what the community call for
3) Unlocking skills worked great and had next to no complaints in Gw1
4) You did purchase the game with everything unlocked but its been announced for a long time that new skills are coming.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Not only this but it creates a connection with the character you built up from nothing.

You have PvE and WvW for that, in addition to unlocking ranks or cosmetics in sPvP as symbols of your progress.

EXACTLY! Why should all other aspects of the game get it when the majority of people purchased the game for PvP? – errr you get ‘cosmetics’ and titles in pve and wvw too?

TainoFuerte.8136:

So lets use your example that someone joins years down the track and needs to unlock skills. Even in the current meta there are 8 skills, you can unlock those 8 skills first. Just because there are 2,000,000 skills doesn’t mean you can’t choose which ones you unlock.

The player shouldn’t have to unlock them in the first place. He should be able to catch up to the meta instantly and be competitive right off the bat.

You do realize that <a fortnight for a dedicated player or < a month basically is right off the bat.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Please, view this with an open mind

I keep an open mind – to good ideas.

[/quote]

We all have our opinions

aussieheals.6843:

I think you might be confused friend, I’m happy with the changes coming, you’re not?

By reading my previous posts that answer should be evident. Not sure why I’d be confused, as I’m responding to your comment directly, as opposed to this question that doesn’t have anything to do with what I wrote.

Research would indicate that:
1) Everything is subject to change
2) ArenaNet (sometimes lol) provide what the community call for
3) Unlocking skills worked great and had next to no complaints in Gw1
4) You did purchase the game with everything unlocked but its been announced for a long time that new skills are coming.

You haven’t cited anything for that “research”. It also doesn’t have anything to do with the arguments quoted.

EXACTLY! Why should all other aspects of the game get it when the majority of people purchased the game for PvP?

How do you know this? PvE can have these elements because it doesn’t feature competition between players and having to unlock things doesn’t place anyone at a disadvantage. I don’t know why it’s in WvW – but if that’s what you want for PvP you can go there. sPvP was designed to place everyone on even footing immediately.

You do realize that <a fortnight for a dedicated player or < a month basically is right off the bat.

No? If it isn’t already unlocked automatically it isn’t “right off the bat”.

We all have our opinions – Some of us just like to make sense with ours

Keep practicing and you’ll get it.

TainoFuerte.8136:

aussieheals.6843:

I think you might be confused friend, I’m happy with the changes coming, you’re not?

By reading my previous posts that answer should be evident. Not sure why I’d be confused, as I’m responding to your comment directly, as opposed to this question that doesn’t have anything to do with what I wrote.

The best of my knowledge defending incoming changes generally means I like them, not sure how you would more clearly like me to put that to you ^^

TainoFuerte.8136:

Research would indicate that:
1) Everything is subject to change
2) ArenaNet (sometimes lol) provide what the community call for
3) Unlocking skills worked great and had next to no complaints in Gw1
4) You did purchase the game with everything unlocked but its been announced for a long time that new skills are coming.

You haven’t cited anything for that “research”. It also doesn’t have anything to do with the arguments quoted.

Honestly, I didn’t think common sense would require citation. But as you wish: When you play monopoly do you like to own all the houses off the bat? OR is it more fun earning those houses before you bankrupt your opponent after an epic match during a black out. Try not to over complicate the question i’m too tired to respond to a petty argument.

TainoFuerte.8136:

EXACTLY! Why should all other aspects of the game get it when the majority of people purchased the game for PvP?

How do you know this? PvE can have these elements because it doesn’t feature competition between players and having to unlock things doesn’t place anyone at a disadvantage. I don’t know why it’s in WvW – but if that’s what you want for PvP you can go there. sPvP was designed to place everyone on even footing

The fact is, a vast amount of players ONLY enjoy PvP and don’t want to touch PvE or as you described ‘none competitive play’ although i’m not sure why they would have leader-boards but that’s a different topic. Anywho, those PvP only players would like that same ‘connection’ if I may call it that to their characters as PvE and WvWvW players do. Man that sounds corny but I can’t describe it in a better way.

TainoFuerte.8136:

You do realize that <a fortnight for a dedicated player or < a month basically is right off the bat.

No? If it isn’t already unlocked automatically it isn’t “right off the bat”.

I’m too tired for petty banter

TainoFuerte.8136:

We all have our opinions – Some of us just like to make sense with ours

Keep practicing and you’ll get it.

It doesn’t matter how much I practice, brick walls always give the same answer.

aussieheals.6843:

The best of my knowledge defending incoming changes generally means I like them, not sure how you would more clearly like me to put that to you ^^

Ok? You asked me if I liked them, for some reason. I know you approve of them.

Honestly, I didn’t think common sense would require citation. But as you wish: When you play monopoly do you like to own all the houses off the bat? OR is it more fun earning those houses before you bankrupt your opponent after an epic match during a black out.

sPvP isn’t trying to be like Monopoly. It has it’s own goals for the type of people that enjoy them. There are other games that have PvP that’s closer to your Monopoly example, where you have to build up your character. You can go to those.

The fact is, a vast amount of players ONLY enjoy PvP and don’t want to touch PvE or as you described ‘none competitive play’ although i’m not sure why they would have leader-boards but that’s a different topic. Anywho, those PvP only players would like that same ‘connection’ if I may call it that to their characters as PvE and WvWvW players do. Man that sounds corny but I can’t describe it in a better way.

Then there are many other games that cater to that desire you have. This one’s sPvP was designed for a different audience, that prioritizes an even competition, as per pre-release marketing.

It doesn’t matter how much I practice, brick walls always give the same answer

Brick walls can’t talk, so that’s probably why they always answer the same way. They can’t help you practice.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Honestly, I didn’t think common sense would require citation. But as you wish: When you play monopoly do you like to own all the houses off the bat? OR is it more fun earning those houses before you bankrupt your opponent after an epic match during a black out.

sPvP isn’t trying to be like Monopoly. It has it’s own goals for the type of people that enjoy them. There are other games that have PvP that’s closer to your Monopoly example, where you have to build up your character. You can go to those.

I don’t want to build up my entire character but a small sense of unlocks is a very rewarding and balanced approach. It’s quite clearly the choice of the majority or at least the direction chosen by ArenaNet for good reason.

TainoFuerte.8136:

The fact is, a vast amount of players ONLY enjoy PvP and don’t want to touch PvE or as you described ‘none competitive play’ although i’m not sure why they would have leader-boards but that’s a different topic. Anywho, those PvP only players would like that same ‘connection’ if I may call it that to their characters as PvE and WvWvW players do. Man that sounds corny but I can’t describe it in a better way.

Then there are many other games that cater to that desire you have. This one’s sPvP was designed for a different audience, that prioritizes an even competition, as per pre-release marketing.

I find it strange that you say that when ArenaNet are moving in the direction I prefer.

I need to crash it’s almost 3am, good discussion!

aussieheals.6843:

I don’t want to build up my entire character but a small sense of unlocks is a very rewarding and balanced approach. It’s quite clearly the choice of the majority or at least the direction chosen by ArenaNet for good reason.

I haven’t heard any good reason for this change, nor have I seen any evidence that this is what the majority wanted. In all of my time visiting this forum I never read about anyone asking for new skills to require unlocking in sPvP.

I find it strange that you say that when ArenaNet are moving in the direction I prefer.

You find it strange that as a consumer I expect the product I bought to be like the product I was told I was going to buy? That’s why I’m against this implementation of new skills.

TainoFuerte.8136:

aussieheals.6843:

I don’t want to build up my entire character but a small sense of unlocks is a very rewarding and balanced approach. It’s quite clearly the choice of the majority or at least the direction chosen by ArenaNet for good reason.

I haven’t heard any good reason for this change, nor have I seen any evidence that this is what the majority wanted. In all of my time visiting this forum I never read about anyone asking for new skills to require unlocking in sPvP.

I find it strange that you say that when ArenaNet are moving in the direction I prefer.

You find it strange that as a consumer I expect the product I bought to be like the product I was told I was going to buy? That’s why I’m against this implementation of new skills.

I’m going to assume you have been playing the game for some time now. I’m also going to assume that you see how fast skill updates happen. I know your worried about change its a natural human instinct but with all your knowledge of the game at least have piece of mind that it’s one new skill a year hahaha… sorry thought I’d end on a light note <3 you anet.

I find the [Discussion] to be superfluous, every other post on the forum is what then?

I think it’s a good idea if you insert gold into pvp you need gold sinks, balances itself out, also PVE players will sink gold in PVP, good changes overall IMHO