Guild Wars 2

Chaith.8256:

Supreme.3164:

Chaith.8256:

Elxdark.9702:

PvP is already dead, Anet wanted this game for casuals and there you have, a bunch of passives, automatic stun breaker traits and condi cheese which only leads to boredom.

@Chaith you’re a pro and veteran player I can’t believe you are actually approving Anet patches… seriously dude the game is full of passives and there’s not skill involved at all, not even at high lvl play because that’s more team coordination than skill.

Yes this meta is somehow more faster than the last ones but it isn’t even close to what balance means lol, stop trying to defend something which isn’t defensible.

I don’t give a crap about disagreeing with the majority of players that blindly trash every patch, just cause’ ArenaNet didn’t get absolutely everything right. Just cause ‘the game’s full of passives’, doesn’t mean the game didn’t come back from the brink of the worst balance ever in fall 2015. Patches since then must’ve been so bad just as you say, huh.

So to you, the game has no skill involved at all, who cares that there’s now incomprehensible power differences due to mechanical skill on Guardians, Revs, Mesmers, Warriors, and Necros, and Thieves all now running high risk, high reward amulets if they didn’t before?

You may not consider team coordination and using support properly as skill, and all professions being represented equally, and healthy pace of action in PvP not being balance related. You’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t think what you’re saying is even close to being common sense.

People on the forums be like, lol anet sux, but never acknowledge good things that happen.

Yah..I’d like to see you playing a magi or marauder elementalist then come back and say to us again how anet did good things

Scrimmed against it and with it, pro EU teams especially seem to really like them still. Can’t wait to see your face when you realize they’re still a viable competitive pick. Menders amulet deserves a mention over Marauder, tho’, but it seems to be okay in casual.

From what I’ve seen, a good ele is still good to have. What’s truly nice about eles now is that they arent invincible, and you can beat them down relative to the time it takes to do the same with everybody else. Even then, they’ll disengage if they have/want to, just like regular mortal classes always have XD

It just means somebody else has to sub onto the point. Tag team pro wrestling ftw :D

Chaith.8256:

Supreme.3164:

Chaith.8256:

Elxdark.9702:

PvP is already dead, Anet wanted this game for casuals and there you have, a bunch of passives, automatic stun breaker traits and condi cheese which only leads to boredom.

@Chaith you’re a pro and veteran player I can’t believe you are actually approving Anet patches… seriously dude the game is full of passives and there’s not skill involved at all, not even at high lvl play because that’s more team coordination than skill.

Yes this meta is somehow more faster than the last ones but it isn’t even close to what balance means lol, stop trying to defend something which isn’t defensible.

I don’t give a crap about disagreeing with the majority of players that blindly trash every patch, just cause’ ArenaNet didn’t get absolutely everything right. Just cause ‘the game’s full of passives’, doesn’t mean the game didn’t come back from the brink of the worst balance ever in fall 2015. Patches since then must’ve been so bad just as you say, huh.

So to you, the game has no skill involved at all, who cares that there’s now incomprehensible power differences due to mechanical skill on Guardians, Revs, Mesmers, Warriors, and Necros, and Thieves all now running high risk, high reward amulets if they didn’t before?

You may not consider team coordination and using support properly as skill, and all professions being represented equally, and healthy pace of action in PvP not being balance related. You’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t think what you’re saying is even close to being common sense.

People on the forums be like, lol anet sux, but never acknowledge good things that happen.

Yah..I’d like to see you playing a magi or marauder elementalist then come back and say to us again how anet did good things

Scrimmed against it and with it, pro EU teams especially seem to really like them still. Can’t wait to see your face when you realize they’re still a viable competitive pick. Menders amulet deserves a mention over Marauder, tho’, but it seems to be okay in casual.

That ESL teams would run to the next safe option after cleric was a no brainer, you did the same after celestial removal so…easy enough to guess; oh and next week mender d/f ele will appear magically on gw2 metabattle meta and everything will be fine…no

In truth you can imagine how many care about what ESL team like to use and you can guess that the concept of “viability” change from your perspective to ours, the masses.

For almost the entirety of the ele community, the current ele is not a good thing, we don’t like being just healbot or just TAG team zergers like fresh air ele.

We want to play a viable bruiser that require just as much effort ( we don’t mind some more effort respect to warrior and condi chronomancer which require none) as the rest.

We don’t care how many eles are used from esl teams, we don’t care what’s meta or not….we want to play what’s fun to play and we want to play it now, got it?

Told you before, the casuals don’t give a crap about ESL, META of tournaments; the casuals want to have fun and for them healbot is not fun.

What happens now that me and others will swap class…many other instead will change game as they’re rightly tired of the awful balance in this game…yeah the game is dying whether you like it or not ( the majority of the GW1 playerbase is almost all gone)

P.S Don’t like ranged druid?
You must learn how to deal with it just like eles had to learn how to deal with condibombs from reapers, condi chrono and condi wars after diamond skin was nerfed; how to deal with scrappers spamming 1-2-3-4-5 with the hammer and insta winning almost, how to deal with dodge-dodge-dodge…DD thieves

Yeah..I love my druid, you can only fight imbalance..with more imbalance, that’s the only way to make the game fun for you lol

Supreme.3164:

We want to play a viable bruiser that require just as much effort ( we don’t mind some more effort respect to warrior and condi chronomancer which require none) as the rest.

We don’t care how many eles are used from esl teams, we don’t care what’s meta or not….we want to play what’s fun to play and we want to play it now, got it?

Yes sir, Mr. Tantrum sir, I’ll page the ArenaNet staff and have them serve up the easy mode damage dealer Ele this instant.

Chaith.8256:

Supreme.3164:

We want to play a viable bruiser that require just as much effort ( we don’t mind some more effort respect to warrior and condi chronomancer which require none) as the rest.

We don’t care how many eles are used from esl teams, we don’t care what’s meta or not….we want to play what’s fun to play and we want to play it now, got it?

Yes sir, Mr. Tantrum sir, I’ll page the ArenaNet staff and have them serve up the easy mode damage dealer Ele this instant.

In my opinion the real problem , for common people is the lack of build diversity. Probably a pro player see the thing with a different perspective from a casual player.
For me having so many traits , so many weapons and see every class with quite the same weaponset, traits and utility is really sad. For example ,I play engineer since 2012. I have HOT. I play a build with FT and pistols with no HOT ( something really similar to your stream) , not becouse i don’t have hot, not becouse i think it is stronger that scrapper but for a more important reason for a casual player : i have not fun with scrapper and hammer. The balance and ESL scene will be important for you but , in general , if the playerbase will have no fun … the game will die becouse Anet makes money with casual players . PVE is quite repetitive, wvw is quite unbalanced , SPVP for me remain the only thing that i do quite every day .

PierPiero.9142:

In my opinion the real problem , for common people is the lack of build diversity. Probably a pro player see the thing with a different perspective from a casual player.
For me having so many traits , so many weapons and see every class with quite the same weaponset, traits and utility is really sad. For example ,I play engineer since 2012. I have HOT. I play a build with FT and pistols with no HOT ( something really similar to your stream) , not becouse i don’t have hot, not becouse i think it is stronger that scrapper but for a more important reason for a casual player : i have not fun with scrapper and hammer. The balance and ESL scene will be important for you but , in general , if the playerbase will have no fun … the game will die becouse Anet makes money with casual players . PVE is quite repetitive, wvw is quite unbalanced , SPVP for me remain the only thing that i do quite every day .

There are a ton of builds to use in casual PvP.

I run condition Engineer very often on stream, it’s strong, you can blow up nearly any Revenant or Druid with the right usage of your abilities, some matchups that are actually a lot harder/ no win condition when using Hammer Scrapper.

This is an example of a build that I use all the time in casual play. In casual play I notice players playing: Fresh Air Ele, Burn Guardians, Mally Revs, Power Warriors, all sorts of Thief builds, dps druids, multiple dragonhunter builds with different weapons, ranging from symbol bruisers to bunker.

These are all pretty serious builds, there is a ton of builds that aren’t tournament ready which you can destroy people with. They do exist, and there’s nothing stopping you from using them and winning. There’s no lack of build diversity in the casual game. On the competitive side of things it’s a bit less flexible.

The OP was about day-to-day pvp I think. Pro league really isn’t relevant to my PvP experience in my opinion. I have respect for a couple of pro league players, but I don’t bother watching.

I’ve been winning better than 50% of my matches on PU core Mesmer, with fair matchmaking.

The perceptions about balance have been skewed by matchmaking that virtually assigned winners and losers.

The metric of the health of GW2 pvp is how many regular people are playing every day. The pro league is it’s own issue and not really relevant to daily gaming.

The biggest problem is the deliberately unbalanced matchmaking. There’s no reasonable way to talk about balance when you are comparing predetermined matches.

I personally perform a lot better when my team isn’t being stomped. Then I can focus on the game and not evading the enemy zerg.

If ANET ran even matches, 70% of the problem would be solved.

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP was about day-to-day pvp I think.

Rarnark.5623:

Talking mostly about the competitive scene.

Rarnark.5623:

It’s obvious at this point so there’s no need elaborating on the diminishing interest/population in Guild Wars 2 PvP.

Can this be reversed, or are any initiatives a band-aid on a bullet hole at this point?

@Chaith

Your quote is not relevant to what I said. I was talking about the OP. The OP appears to be about the pvp scene in general and not about pro league.

Bringing this back to the topic; I don’t think Pro league is a good metric. The real measure of pvp health is in how many are playing every day in ranked and unranked.

That number has been reduced by deliberately unbalanced matches.

Because the matches were unbalanced, it’s very difficult to see class balance accurately.

So, the first step in improving pvp would be to improve matchmaking. Better still, simply make it 50-50 odds on the predicted win.

Chaith, not to be rude, but I presume a good deal of your income depends on the health of the Guild Wars 2 PvP gamemode. Toning down the condescension maybe in that context might bring more emphasis to the points you are trying to make. No shots fired just saying it as it seems.

That aside, it would be interesting to see a poll where people chose every class being represented vs relatively balanced specs, in terms of ‘what of is balance’.

Ithilwen.1529:

Rarnark.5623:

It’s obvious at this point so there’s no need elaborating on the diminishing interest/population in Guild Wars 2 PvP.

Can this be reversed, or are any initiatives a band-aid on a bullet hole at this point?

@Chaith

Your quote is not relevant to what I said. I was talking about the OP. The OP appears to be about the pvp scene in general and not about pro league.

Bringing this back to the topic; I don’t think Pro league is a good metric. The real measure of pvp health is in how many are playing every day in ranked and unranked.

That number has been reduced by deliberately unbalanced matches.

Because the matches were unbalanced, it’s very difficult to see class balance accurately.

So, the first step in improving pvp would be to improve matchmaking. Better still, simply make it 50-50 odds on the predicted win.

Let me put it in even more simple words; The whole sPvP gamemode is a joke (Squeeze WvW in the mix) and it’s pointing more and more towards an overhaul than ‘fixing’ things. Sounds more like biting around the bushes considering the level of mess Anet has created post HoT.

Saiyan.1704:

Burtnik.5218:

You guys wasted 2 pages for nothing. Let me tell you why;

Something that is dead cant die

Dont even let me get started on “competitive” scene cus i will laugh in your face. Its nothing but a private grange for few people and nobody gives a kitten about whats happening there.
Goodnight.

I’m a bit confused. If you can create a team right this moment, compete and win money, how is it dead?

There may be a handful of teams who compete but the winnings is very much still there. That and I still see new people in pvp… the game is not dead.

Apparently twitch views determines whether or not a game is dead.

Just bc plebnet trying to push esport that will never happen doesnt mean its not dead. And idc about twitch, i base it on 30+min ques in S3. Thats definitely looks alive and alright to have such long ques for one match, right? People are tired with balance of this game and gives up on that. Nobody want x class to be locked in x role like ele being nothing but a healbot.

PvP is not as fun as it once was. Instead of reviewing their elite specializations and toning them down, they just buff them and remove old amulets.
Build diversity is lost.

- Elementalist’s tempest line is locked to the one GM trait in all game modes, STILL. Fire attunement is underpowered, due to unnecessary nerfs.
- Power mesmer is no long viable due to increasing passive tankiness of all classes. Mesmer is now forced to run with inspiration traitline for protection against all the condi-sustain builds, and mesmer itself is turned into a condi-sustain build.
- Power necromancer is not viable anymore, the elite spec shroud form are condition based, the greatsword is two clunky and easy to evade, while the hard dps output without conditions in shroud form is awful.
- Ranger lost all of its ‘Ranger’ indentity. Now they just run circles at mid spamming celestial avatar form, and occasional longbow wet noodle attacks reflected half the time. DPS is carried by superior HoT introduced pets, dominant to core pets.
- Engineer elite spec is just cancer to fight, and alot less fun to play. Farts out stability, stealths, reflects, CC, cleanse, protection and speed.
- Thief has lost its top-tier value and is not viable in 1v1’s generally due to increasing sustain of all classes, as thief can not burst down these classes (Unless its a non-hot Guardian or something). It is only good for +1’ing team fights and decaps, however this keeps it out of bottum tier place at least.
- Guardian already had a strong sustain/DPS build but now it’s sustain is 5 times higher, as well as spammable CC and traps introduced, easy to use and succeed with, due to passive stability, CC and cleanse traits. Jump into fight, spam traps, and spam DPS while traits cover you. Jump out with F2F3 to survive.
- Warrior power builds are no longer viable. Only condi spam interrupt, whilst maintaining a super high sustain is viable. Warriors have always had a strong sustain, but not so much of a strong offense nor condition pressure. They are now very powerful in 1vs1, and extremely tanky.
- Revenant despite nerfs is still one of the most powerful classes, due to its superior mobility in Assassin’s stance, and the near-infinite evades it has. Projects a huge amount of dmg while easily evading most of its incoming attacks.

These changes are not fun, many of the old fun builds are all killed now. HoT is turning PvP into kitten center. The new map is nice, but isn’t enough.

Chaith.8256:

Trigr.6481:

Which goes back to my first post, the game is in a unhealthy state and the viewership reflects it. You have a pvp team that can’t “even if they wanted to” balance for pvp, the only thing they have control over is amulets and sigils, which act more like a desperation band aid attempt at fixing things than actual balance. You have a “competitive” scene that’s current being dictated by a team who’s primary concern is to balance for the entire game, leaving spvp in the minority. And you think things are improving when it comes to spvp? It’s time to wake up.

Countless

The game’s competitive PvP currently being in an unhealthy state is not a simply stated fact. I’ll paint you a little timeline up to today, from last August, up until tournament level play today.

Before the expansion in August, at the competitive event that peaked at 11k concurrent viewers, we had really great class representation. Every profession but Ranger in competitive, fast paced combat, quite mechanically skill dependent.

After the expansion we saw incredibly un-winnable fights on both sides. Triple Revenant, Two Mesmers, with an optional support was it. Mechanical skill couldn’t overcome use of the god comp. Boring fights, to a point where when a single kill occured (someone must’ve DC’d or something), it could decide the entire game via attrition. A huge chunk of fans quit following, some never to return. Dislikes wracking up on the pro league youtube VODs as casters struggled to make something of the snooze fest happening. The problems were largely fixed right before the season 1 Finals, but the damage had been done, and with a combination of minor technical issues and and outraged viewers during the season play, the finals peaked at 3.5k viewers or something that was the worst of any world level GW2 event.

Season two, professional representation further improved, Warrior, and Thief became usable in competitive, balance between supports became closer than before, and the season two world tournament finals had a peak of 6k concurrent viewers, and the best production value yet thanks to the burbank ESL studios.

The next upcoming world event in September in Burbank is going to have Dragonhunter added with the rest as a viable pick, faster paced and more mechanical skill dependent than the last two seasons. Bigger prize pool, more teams, and will have more viewers than the Season 2 finals, I’m willing to bet. It’s going to be in the same high quality studio.

I think I’ve made my point about how the competitive PvP scene is not in an unhealthy place, or even a downward trend. The twitch viewership is anything but stagnant, more volatile than anything, really.

If you think I’m wrong, that’s fine, but things are looking good to me.

Just because a class is now in the current meta, doesn’t mean that it reflects upon good balance. It will continue to be as long as one class gets pushed into the meta, another one drops off. Not to mention the argument of there will not be true change to SPvP until it gets it’s own balance. All the other efforts are just to make sure that the pvp keeps its head above water.

When it comes to viewership, well have to agree to disagree. I know its hard to imagine but I actually want this game to succeed. That being said I have high standards of how I believe they should run things, and give good input in attempt to make that happen, and will let it be known when something is clearly out of place. Tough love.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

Just because a class is now in the current meta, doesn’t mean that it reflects upon good balance. It will continue to be as long as one class gets pushed into the meta, another one drops off. Not to mention the argument of there will not be true change to SPvP until it gets it’s own balance. All the other efforts are just to make sure that the pvp keeps its head above water.

Something that reflects upon poor balance, when professions are so bad that not a soul plays them in PvP, and they get verbal abuse just for queuing as that profession. Like Warrior and Thief in Season 2 of Ranked queue.

Also, tweaking game modes separately from July 26th – how have you not commented on this, it’s been your impossible wet dream for years:

Lava Font: Increased the cooldown of this skill from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in all game modes except PvP.
Defense Field: The cooldown of this skill has been increased 25 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only.
Final Salvo: The stability granted by this trait has been reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only.
Protective Ward: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds in PvP only.
Precision Strike: The cooldown of this skill has increased from 5 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.
Equilibrium: Reduced the damage of this trait by 20% in PvP only.
Head Butt: Increased the cooldown of this skill from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.
Adrenal Health: The amount of healing generated per stack has been reduced by 10% in PvP only.

They also said that these separations between game modes for these balance changes came from a new trick that Evan Lesh came up with recently to reduce the workload behind it, so I’d assume that means in the future that tweaks that wouldn’t be appreciated in each of the game modes can be selectively omitted when needed.

Trigr.6481:

When it comes to viewership, well have to agree to disagree. I know its hard to imagine but I actually want this game to succeed. That being said I have high standards of how I believe they should run things, and give good input in attempt to make that happen, and will let it be known when something is clearly out of place. Tough love.

Countless

Agree to disagree on what exactly? I’m just saying it’s good that the last GW2 tournament had increased viewership compared to it’s predecessor, and the next tournament I predict will be even better. That’s good you want the game to succeed though.

Henrik.7560:

PvP is not as fun as it once was. Instead of reviewing their elite specializations and toning them down, they just buff them and remove old amulets.
Build diversity is lost.

- Guardian already had a strong sustain/DPS build but now it’s sustain is 5 times higher, as well as spammable CC and traps introduced, easy to use and succeed with, due to passive stability, CC and cleanse traits. Jump into fight, spam traps, and spam DPS while traits cover you. Jump out with F2F3 to survive.

Hard to take you seriously when this is far from truthful. Everyone knew DH couldn’t self sustain himself compared to other classes in S1, S2, & S3…

Reaper Alim.4176:

…

At least they’ll have a somewhat of a monopoly in this on the market atm. A game where all the players that do not have the ability to play any Action MMO can, that requires more personal skill and reflexes then GW2 can main. On the causal scale GW2 is the highest MMO on the market.

GW2 don’t completely sux btw. It’s sPvP however is just complete trash compared to many many other games. It’s PvE is ok in Fractals and Raids, maybe some of the events. It’s WvW, well it looks like WvW will follow the same suit as sPvP game mode.

Well… How many spvp games you have played? How many spvp team have you been into?

How many tournament (amateur AG included) have you been?

Actually, combat mechanic of Gw2 is the best of the genre, all around. You can’t find a game with that kind of play without “grind” involved on the market, yet.

It’s a simple easy to soloq game, that is hard to master to go at high level. We are all kittening here, because we love this game and are passionate about it.

What about you? Do you have better alternative than gw2 spvp? I didn’t find any and I played most of the competition… so, I should be a trash casual in your eyes?

Trigr.6481:

Chaith.8256:

Trigr.6481:

If I recall correctly “correct me if I’m wrong” I remember you posting in a thread a while back about the time arguing with someone else making a claim in a thread talking about gw2 getting 10k concurrent viewers when in reality it was when sodapoppin just so happened to stream for a hour. So seeing these statements of you stretching the truth doesn’t surprise me.

Countless

WTS finals, Cologne 2015 had 11k concurrent viewers in the Guild Wars 2 channel, and peak daytime we’ll have streamers like Peachy, BogOtter, Helseth going all at the same time

Season 2 finals, the last competitive event peaked at 6k concurrent viewers, average 5k, in the Guild Wars 2 channel.

Saiyan.1704:

Apparently twitch views determines whether or not a game is dead.

Yeah that was my original comment, how lots is going on off stream on the competitive side. But “twitch numbers speak for themselves :-D”

That still falls in line with the average overall viewership of gw2 getting anywhere from 300-500 viewers daily, if it so happens that more than 1 popular streamer broadcast “which is not everyday by the way” then you’ll get up some where around 1500 viewers, and that’s being generous. On the low end you see numbers as low kitten-80 with a grand total of 12 people total streaming the game. And this is not counting tournament numbers by the way.

Tournament wise, the viewership have been consistently stagnant with the same number as before. When it comes to everything else, the numbers have actually dropped compared to before. Which goes back to my first post, the game is in a unhealthy state and the viewership reflects it. You have a pvp team that can’t “even if they wanted to” balance for pvp, the only thing they have control over is amulets and sigils, which act more like a desperation band aid attempt at fixing things than actual balance. You have a “competitive” scene that’s current being dictated by a team who’s primary concern is to balance for the entire game, leaving spvp in the minority. And you think things are improving when it comes to spvp? It’s time to wake up.

Countless

Countless is right about number of viewers.

If you compare it to competitive pvp games the numbers are 10x and +. (100x and some 1000x)

Anet decide to market this game for MMORPG casual players. So, pvp players don’t know a lot about what we are doing here.

Here is all the explanation and how to make it better:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/sPvP-needs-its-own-business-model/first

This would bring 100x more viewers.

Jourdelune.7456:

Reaper Alim.4176:

…

At least they’ll have a somewhat of a monopoly in this on the market atm. A game where all the players that do not have the ability to play any Action MMO can, that requires more personal skill and reflexes then GW2 can main. On the causal scale GW2 is the highest MMO on the market.

GW2 don’t completely sux btw. It’s sPvP however is just complete trash compared to many many other games. It’s PvE is ok in Fractals and Raids, maybe some of the events. It’s WvW, well it looks like WvW will follow the same suit as sPvP game mode.

Well… How many spvp games you have played? How many spvp team have you been into?

How many tournament (amateur AG included) have you been?

Actually, combat mechanic of Gw2 is the best of the genre, all around. You can’t find a game with that kind of play without “grind” involved on the market, yet.

It’s a simple easy to soloq game, that is hard to master to go at high level. We are all kittening here, because we love this game and are passionate about it.

What about you? Do you have better alternative than gw2 spvp? I didn’t find any and I played most of the competition… so, I should be a trash casual in your eyes?

Who cares about other MMOs? Most new ones aren’t being made for pvp just like gw2 wasn’t made for pvp, being one of the least bad ones doesn’t make it good.

When Anet is aiming for esports they aren’t going to go up against other MMOs but instead games like LoL, Dota, Hearthstone, Starcraft, etc, that’s the competition they are facing.

Chaith.8256:

Trigr.6481:

Just because a class is now in the current meta, doesn’t mean that it reflects upon good balance. It will continue to be as long as one class gets pushed into the meta, another one drops off. Not to mention the argument of there will not be true change to SPvP until it gets it’s own balance. All the other efforts are just to make sure that the pvp keeps its head above water.

Something that reflects upon poor balance, when professions are so bad that not a soul plays them in PvP, and they get verbal abuse just for queuing as that profession. Like Warrior and Thief in Season 2 of Ranked queue.

Also, tweaking game modes separately from July 26th – how have you not commented on this, it’s been your impossible wet dream for years:

Lava Font: Increased the cooldown of this skill from 6 seconds to 8 seconds in all game modes except PvP.
Defense Field: The cooldown of this skill has been increased 25 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only.
Final Salvo: The stability granted by this trait has been reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only.
Protective Ward: Increased the cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds in PvP only.
Precision Strike: The cooldown of this skill has increased from 5 seconds to 6 seconds in PvP only.
Equilibrium: Reduced the damage of this trait by 20% in PvP only.
Head Butt: Increased the cooldown of this skill from 20 seconds to 25 seconds in PvP only.
Adrenal Health: The amount of healing generated per stack has been reduced by 10% in PvP only.

They also said that these separations between game modes for these balance changes came from a new trick that Evan Lesh came up with recently to reduce the workload behind it, so I’d assume that means in the future that tweaks that wouldn’t be appreciated in each of the game modes can be selectively omitted when needed.

Trigr.6481:

When it comes to viewership, well have to agree to disagree. I know its hard to imagine but I actually want this game to succeed. That being said I have high standards of how I believe they should run things, and give good input in attempt to make that happen, and will let it be known when something is clearly out of place. Tough love.

Countless

Agree to disagree on what exactly? I’m just saying it’s good that the last GW2 tournament had increased viewership compared to it’s predecessor, and the next tournament I predict will be even better. That’s good you want the game to succeed though.

That’s wonderful news, however it’s going to take a considerable amount of time for the right balance to take effect if they do it right without screwing up. And I’m inclined to agree that the viewership is chaotic at best. The best thing they could do is balance out the spvp first, and come out with a smaller game type 2v2 3v3, that way a small population like we have could fill it. Then I would bet quite a bit that you would then see a huge influx in viewership and player population. I’m going to be completely realistic and give it a year and see what happens.

Countless

Chaith.8256:

Supreme.3164:

We want to play a viable bruiser that require just as much effort ( we don’t mind some more effort respect to warrior and condi chronomancer which require none) as the rest.

We don’t care how many eles are used from esl teams, we don’t care what’s meta or not….we want to play what’s fun to play and we want to play it now, got it?

Yes sir, Mr. Tantrum sir, I’ll page the ArenaNet staff and have them serve up the easy mode damage dealer Ele this instant.

He is still right.

The game should be able to offer a fun experiences to casual and be competitive at high level.

It need BOTH to get GOOD.

But since the PVP team only take “PRO” recommandations, we are still in a BRUISERS meta where the best THIEVES (or power squishie DPS) play something ELSE because they don’t have BUNKER to support them anymore.

Thank you very much, Kappa!

Aeroxe.8140:

Balance is getting somewhere. But there are still issues with the core game, which is pretty much impossible to fix unless there is an overhaul.

Here is a short list of a few of the issues:

-Matchmaking is questionable
-League system is grind based instead of being skill based
-Rewards are abysmal compared to pve, and are not skill based
-No objective quantification of skill. Personal skill is measured by subjective bias, esports status, and how you convince others you are good. Players have difficulty getting into the esports scene because of this.
-Lackluster tutorial into pve
-Skills are too multi-faceted. They do too many things when they should just be kept to a single effect.
-Too much AoE
-Too many forgiving builds and passive traits
-Lack of diversity in builds because of elite specializations.
-Lack of diverse game modes
-Few maps
-Spectator mode still buggy
-No replays
-Personal score does not indicate your performance. Leads to toxicity
-Poor statisistics. Does not indicate your contributions to your team very much.
-No solo/team que split
-Few tournaments
-No leaderboards
-Pvp music is repetitive
-Visual effects are disorienting in large teamfights
-Powercreep
-Low pvp population
-No surrender/resign function like in gw1
-No build templates

You are pretty much describing the thief class. Don’t you think they ought to be nerfed? Rethorical question, since I know you’d favor a thief nerf. Especially the evade condi spam build. Way Way too forgiving.

Also I did some digging, and my findings are pretty close to my educated guess I had earlier in this thread.

http://www.sullygnome.com/Game/Guild_Wars_2

Past 30 days

Peak viewers- 1640 “only happened once”
Average viewers- a whopping 314
Lowest viewers- 69

In the past year, the games viewership has spiked over 1500 viewers only 3 times…….

Regardless of how you look at it one thing is for certain, it’s not a healthy viewerbase for either pve or pvp. I’d like to see a argument against numerical data, I’ll wait.

Countless

I think a guy on reddit said it best, the best part of the tournaments was the PvP buff since most people don’t care about watching GW2 PvP. I mean the only reason those twitch views hit high numbers is because they were giving away precursors right?

I don’t get this ‘No one is watching GW2 on twitter so it is dieing’ mentality. Well Maby the E-sports part of GW2 is dieing but not PvP becouse no one is looking on twich I for example neither follow nor watch GW2 ESL live, since I always work or play GW2 when it is casting I always look at it on GW2 YouTube channel or at twich recorded shows.

I doubt that you can say PvP is dieing becouse no one is looking at it on twitch. I rather play it than spend my time looking at it.

I don’t know why people say GW2 is dying, it is consistently being the top 2 or 3 most played MMO in the US.

As for PvP, there are actually more people playing it then any time before due to the league system. Of course the more people played the more complain you are going to get, so it feel like the world is going to end.

bigmonto.4215:

I don’t know why people say GW2 is dying, it is consistently being the top 2 or 3 most played MMO in the US.

As for PvP, there are actually more people playing it then any time before due to the league system. Of course the more people played the more complain you are going to get, so it feel like the world is going to end.

So Anet have published stats, can you share them with all of us? (pls tell me you are not naive enough to be talking about an 8 (?) month old PR quote made shortly after the expansion launched, F2P was added and leagues were introduced)

bigmonto.4215:

I don’t know why people say GW2 is dying, it is consistently being the top 2 or 3 most played MMO in the US.

Given the vast majority of MMOs including this one don’t give out stats, for the obvious reason they are all in long term decline and the industry is still so amateurish transparency has not become a thing, how do you come to that conclusion?

Jourdelune.7456:

Reaper Alim.4176:

…

At least they’ll have a somewhat of a monopoly in this on the market atm. A game where all the players that do not have the ability to play any Action MMO can, that requires more personal skill and reflexes then GW2 can main. On the causal scale GW2 is the highest MMO on the market.

GW2 don’t completely sux btw. It’s sPvP however is just complete trash compared to many many other games. It’s PvE is ok in Fractals and Raids, maybe some of the events. It’s WvW, well it looks like WvW will follow the same suit as sPvP game mode.

Well… How many spvp games you have played? How many spvp team have you been into?

How many tournament (amateur AG included) have you been?

Actually, combat mechanic of Gw2 is the best of the genre, all around. You can’t find a game with that kind of play without “grind” involved on the market, yet.

It’s a simple easy to soloq game, that is hard to master to go at high level. We are all kittening here, because we love this game and are passionate about it.

What about you? Do you have better alternative than gw2 spvp? I didn’t find any and I played most of the competition… so, I should be a trash casual in your eyes?

I see you took my last post as offensive which was not the case. What I have said is sad to say but very true, and don’t need to repeat myself. I say don’t say these things for my health on these forums, I speak my mind in the hopes may be ANet see that I actually care and takes notice, which now seems like it’s all for not. -.-

Yes the combat mechanics are very good in GW2, however I prefer ESO’s combat mechanics just a little bit more[my personal preferences].

No I didn’t get involved in any GW2’s tournaments. Post HoT GW2 didn’t offer me much in the competitive department to get involved in that. I’ve been focusing my PvP efforts in another dedicated PvP Action based hybrid game on the market.

GW2 is actually one of the easiest games to master, more so with the release of HoT lowest skill floor and ceiling.[The hardest thing in GW2 is team coordination, HoT passives take care of most of the other work for you].

All of the players playing GW2’s sPvP are not noncompetitive players. That being said most of the players playing GW2, if I had to take a rough guess %90 – %95 are noncompetitive gamers, who only plays GW2’s sPvP Ranked League Seasons 1 – 3 because you really didin’t needed to be “good” to win or get legendary rewards[ hence some of the players that was getting hit with massive lost streaks of 25 plus in a row. Brought a new account and used the same builds and classes and then magically started getting 20 plus game winning streaks. This is a fact not opinion.] [Or players in Legendary division complaining about other legendary players getting put on their team that was “Amber quality”]

I do have a alternate structured pvp game. I always go to that game when ever I’m in the mood of playing small group structured pvp.[Loads of characters, loads of game modes to pvp in, loads of builds, less focus on passives and more focus on awareness and personal skill and a bit of twitch movement but not as much as many FPSes, also many options throughout the match to adjust the character you are playing to build to counter your enemies, 2v2s, 3v3s, 4v4s, and 5v5s, atleast monthly Pre-Season Mid-Season and Post-Season Character Balancing, not to mention forcing players to play around over 200 hours before even being allowed them to step foot into a ranked match, if you decide to troll ranked matches and there’s proof then expect heavy suspensions from Ranked matches if repeating offensives then say bye bye to your account.] That was also not a opinion but a fact.

No you are not trash in my eyes, atleast till I get the honors to face you, I’ll reserve my opinion about you specifically. However from my experiences, most of the players I’ve played with and against are very lacking in many departments that makes you a decent player.[Gone are the days where 9 times out of 10 if you zerged your team had only a rough estimate of %5 to %10 to win. Now with HoT it’s all about the team who for the most part can zerg the best win.]

bigmonto.4215:

I don’t know why people say GW2 is dying, it is consistently being the top 2 or 3 most played MMO in the US.

As for PvP, there are actually more people playing it then any time before due to the league system. Of course the more people played the more complain you are going to get, so it feel like the world is going to end.

Wait what? GW2 sPvP had about 5 to 8 lobbies full of players before leagues started. Now I’d be willing to say GW2’s sPvP has been struggling to get the 3rd PvP lobby filled. Not to mention before leagues and even season 1 of leagues you’ll run into different players nearly every match. Now you run into the same players match after match and the queue times are pretty long, this is in Emerald so I can only imagine what the queues are like in the Diamond and Legendary divisions.

Had a friends list of 20 plus active sPvPers in GW2 now they have “all” moved on, unlike myself who still finds WvW and some of the PvE action in GW2 fun and not as grindy as most MMOs on the market these days.

Trigr.6481:

In the past year, the games viewership has spiked over 1500 viewers only 3 times…….

I’d like to see a argument against numerical data, I’ll wait.

While the current average viewership sounds right, with 24hr averages of 300 and daytime spikes up around 1000, I’d believe the 30 day max was 1600.

However that figure you listed where in the last 365 days, more than 1500 people watched GW2 concurrently only 3 times, clearly that website you’re using isn’t functioning. Making an argument against that numerical data shouldn’t be necessary.

But anyways,

From September 20th, 2015, to June 20th, 2016, every minute streamed on Guild Wars 2 channel itself averaged higher than 1500, average.

http://www.twinge.tv/guildwars2/growth/#/485

That’s just the GW2 channel, without any other twitch streamers. So don’t believe gw2 has only seen 1500+ viewers three times this year, that’s so far from reality, you should edit your post, like, now.

I’d guesstimate it spiked past 1500 in the last 365 days probably 150 of those days, during pro league broadcasts, multiple days a week for primetime streamers, Guild Wars 2 channel broadcasts.

But, even if we just took into account only 3 of the pre-HoT reveals and World Tournaments, it says that figure you have is not very good.

GW2 twitch has fallen a lot in the last couple months, but in the last year, it was pretty kitten hot, especially around ESL events and HoT hype.

bigmonto.4215:

I don’t know why people say GW2 is dying, it is consistently being the top 2 or 3 most played MMO in the US.

Don’t confuse game loyalty to how fun a game is. Loyalty takes a lot to destroy but once gone, Anet might not get that player back.

Reaper Alim.4176:

Chaith.8256:

Elxdark.9702:

PvP is already dead, Anet wanted this game for casuals and there you have, a bunch of passives, automatic stun breaker traits and condi cheese which only leads to boredom.

@Chaith you’re a pro and veteran player I can’t believe you are actually approving Anet patches… seriously dude the game is full of passives and there’s not skill involved at all, not even at high lvl play because that’s more team coordination than skill.

Yes this meta is somehow more faster than the last ones but it isn’t even close to what balance means lol, stop trying to defend something which isn’t defensible.

I don’t give a crap about disagreeing with the majority of players that blindly trash every patch, just cause’ ArenaNet didn’t get absolutely everything right. Just cause ‘the game’s full of passives’, doesn’t mean the game didn’t come back from the brink of the worst balance ever in fall 2015. Patches since then must’ve been so bad just as you say, huh.

So to you, the game has no skill involved at all, who cares that there’s now incomprehensible power differences due to mechanical skill on Guardians, Revs, Mesmers, Warriors, and Necros, and Thieves all now running high risk, high reward amulets if they didn’t before?

You may not consider team coordination and using support properly as skill, and all professions being represented equally, and healthy pace of action in PvP not being balance related. You’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t think what you’re saying is even close to being common sense.

People on the forums be like, lol anet sux, but never acknowledge good things that happen.

Remind me of the good things that has happened to sPvP caused by ANet since HoT release? To me it just seems ANet now has completely giving up on turning this game into a competitive skill based game. Instead is doubling down to make GW2 in all aspects the most noncompetitive super casual action based MMO on the market. And at this point, it’s probably the cheapest and safest route for ANet to go.

At least they’ll have a somewhat of a monopoly in this on the market atm. A game where all the players that do not have the ability to play any Action MMO can, that requires more personal skill and reflexes then GW2 can main. On the causal scale GW2 is the highest MMO on the market.

GW2 don’t completely sux btw. It’s sPvP however is just complete trash compared to many many other games. It’s PvE is ok in Fractals and Raids, maybe some of the events. It’s WvW, well it looks like WvW will follow the same suit as sPvP game mode.

Yup. PvE is the best thing this game has, by far. A lot of people are looking forward to LW3 and many people love the new fractal.

Also, I have to say, I like WvW more but yeah…it’s going down the same path. The powercreep and balance is ruining it just as well.

PvP is currently just unacceptable.

Seyiwaji.4082:

ah………seriously?
Don’t worry fanboys with pink glasses will continue to say. It is not dying at all.
Everything is fine. not that i care much now

“I don’t care”

“…but I will immediately respond to a post about how the game is “dying” just to show you how much I don’t care"

Waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

Well, i personally have always seen A-net’s first Big mistake. As Being the Way they have been handling the game mode.

They market it, as if it’s some kind of E-Sport.
Now, i would have no problem with this, in fact i would love it. BUT.

A-Net Seem to forget how typically, PVP games like MOBA’s keep people Playing. They keep things fresh.

If they want this game mode to have any serious future. They need to begin Being more brave.
Make Way more balance changes. And don’t be afraid to make major changes. Don’t be afraid to rework useless skills. And if it’s not the best rework in the world, no worries. What’s important, is that the Balance team keep shaking up the meta more often.

GW2 PVP, is in such a bad balance State. That we Can have the same meta for an entire year. And only small number changes are made.

Yet they still market it as an exciting gaming scene.

Don’t get me Wrong, i really Think GW2 has one of the best PVP MMO gameplay systems to date.
But the pace which changes are Being made to builds and such. Is Way too slow for anyone to take it seriously.

PvP is not dying. Look at the championship. It has 1120 viewers at this moment. PvP is really awesome and players love it.

A 3 page thread, about how a game mode is dying/dead, that should have died 3 days
ago and is still going strong. #popcorn

Chaith.8256:

Supreme.3164:

Chaith.8256:

Elxdark.9702:

PvP is already dead, Anet wanted this game for casuals and there you have, a bunch of passives, automatic stun breaker traits and condi cheese which only leads to boredom.

@Chaith you’re a pro and veteran player I can’t believe you are actually approving Anet patches… seriously dude the game is full of passives and there’s not skill involved at all, not even at high lvl play because that’s more team coordination than skill.

Yes this meta is somehow more faster than the last ones but it isn’t even close to what balance means lol, stop trying to defend something which isn’t defensible.

I don’t give a crap about disagreeing with the majority of players that blindly trash every patch, just cause’ ArenaNet didn’t get absolutely everything right. Just cause ‘the game’s full of passives’, doesn’t mean the game didn’t come back from the brink of the worst balance ever in fall 2015. Patches since then must’ve been so bad just as you say, huh.

So to you, the game has no skill involved at all, who cares that there’s now incomprehensible power differences due to mechanical skill on Guardians, Revs, Mesmers, Warriors, and Necros, and Thieves all now running high risk, high reward amulets if they didn’t before?

You may not consider team coordination and using support properly as skill, and all professions being represented equally, and healthy pace of action in PvP not being balance related. You’re entitled to your opinion but I don’t think what you’re saying is even close to being common sense.

People on the forums be like, lol anet sux, but never acknowledge good things that happen.

Yah..I’d like to see you playing a magi or marauder elementalist then come back and say to us again how anet did good things

Scrimmed against it and with it, pro EU teams especially seem to really like them still. Can’t wait to see your face when you realize they’re still a viable competitive pick. Menders amulet deserves a mention over Marauder, tho’, but it seems to be okay in casual.

It was surely fun to see mender ele at the EU qualifiers..xd, looking forward for what NA teams will show us

not even 2k at eu qualifiers LUL//

Excellent stream with such great quality and a great amount of lag, I’m very impressed that Anet did worse than past streams, they’re really going to break their own limits!

I think that GW2 PvP would be improved if Pro League was not played. The attitude that pvp needs to be ultra competitive has driven off many.

I used to look forward to logging on to have a good time. Now, I log on to compete. My stress level peaks and I log off tired and drained.

In another NCsoft game world, I have a ship that is just short of being qualified for the “DPS league.” That world permits macros, so I have less difficulty with needing fast reactions.

For most missions, my ship is genuinely OP. It’s not fun for me or teammates when she goes tearing through enemies like tissue paper.

I have a lot more fun and don’t kitten off the pugs when I play on a lower powered alt. Being in a very competitive fleet has spoiled a good part of the fun.

Tyria used to be fun. I have spent literally more than a year of time actively logged in and playing. I don’t regret a minute of that. Still, ultra competition has really taken the edge off the magic.

This thread is worse than a political or religious debate. A dying game is subjective and can no way to be proven true or false by anyone in this thread.

The biggest thing hurting the game is age. Tech is getting better every year, newer games are coming out and I think SC will blow all MMO’s out of the water. It’s an expected technicality.

Saiyan.1704:

This thread is worse than a political or religious debate. A dying game is subjective and can no way to be proven true or false by anyone in this thread.

The biggest thing hurting the game is age. Tech is getting better every year, newer games are coming out and I think SC will blow all MMO’s out of the water. It’s an expected technicality.

Yes I agree with you on your first statement. I disagree with you on your 2nd statement.

Age is not hurting this game at all it’s only like what a little over 4 years old. Look at MMOs like Eve Online that’s over 15 years old and a still subscription only based, and still kicking strong. CCP is a model example of what happens when you treat your game like a Legacy, rather then a get rich quick scheme object.

I remember the very dark years of 2009 and 2010 for Eve Online where it’s future was very merky and very uncertain. But instead of just simply giving up and try to squeesh the rest of the consumers dry till they leave. CCP took the hit for these two years and did what I’ve never saw a gaming company do, REDO most of the game engine, coding, and adding some many features that it’s was basicly a brand new game under the same exact name. After the complete switch to the new game engine in 2010 Eve Online’s future’s was completely again secured as a the story of the subscription based MMO company that don’t know the meaning of “Giving Up”.

So no age is not hurting this game at all. It’s the board of directors and upper management in charge of making the “BIG” decisions hurting this game big time, for a quick buck. I fear GW2 will have a different story then Eve Online, as the game that had success in a bottle, however the company sold that bottle of success for short term, instead of long term gains.

Tech isn’t this game’s problem. GW2 is still to this day one of the better action combat MMO’s available. ESO tried action combat, but they are clunky. BDO has action combat, quite good I might add, but its ruined by game’s developers wanting to make the game RNG based with heavy gear grind (Korean style p2w). WoW still isn’t up to date with action combat, they’re still stand & cast with some moving parts but still for the most part, traditional combat with no active dodges. There are other games with decent combat but plagued with other engine issues.

GW2’s action combat and its game engine is one of the things carrying this game right now. Its problems have more to do with game’s balance, and not just profession balance, but balance between resources allocated for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Anet seems to be having difficulties balancing the priorities between these 3 very different game modes. It just feels they’re stretched thin, and they’re already splitting their resources to develop the next expansion. This is while players are still crying for more content, new maps, better class balance, etc..

There’s no doubt Anet likely make more money from PvE players. But keep in mind PvP is where you get the more enthusiastic and vocal crowd, where your virals come from. PvP’s got the more passionate bunch, where competition & esports have a place. Hard part for Anet is to balance both and please everybody.

gavyne.6847:

Tech isn’t this game’s problem. GW2 is still to this day one of the better action combat MMO’s available. ESO tried action combat, but they are clunky. BDO has action combat, quite good I might add, but its ruined by game’s developers wanting to make the game RNG based with heavy gear grind (Korean style p2w). WoW still isn’t up to date with action combat, they’re still stand & cast with some moving parts but still for the most part, traditional combat with no active dodges. There are other games with decent combat but plagued with other engine issues.

GW2’s action combat and its game engine is one of the things carrying this game right now. Its problems have more to do with game’s balance, and not just profession balance, but balance between resources allocated for PvE, PvP, and WvW. Anet seems to be having difficulties balancing the priorities between these 3 very different game modes. It just feels they’re stretched thin, and they’re already splitting their resources to develop the next expansion. This is while players are still crying for more content, new maps, better class balance, etc..

There’s no doubt Anet likely make more money from PvE players. But keep in mind PvP is where you get the more enthusiastic and vocal crowd, where your virals come from. PvP’s got the more passionate bunch, where competition & esports have a place. Hard part for Anet is to balance both and please everybody.

Meh in all honestly ANet just need to make the hard choice if they want this game to succeed now. That is pulling a CCP taking the game engine and completely rebuild it so it allows easy access for the different dev teams of GW2 to easily balance skills seperately between sPvP, WvW, and PvE. Till that first step is taking, it’s in my belief that GW2 days will truly be numbered, and at the complete mercy of other Fantasy MMO companies. I will not count Star Citizens as a competitor because that game is more of a Scfi-Steampunk MMO which is completely different from games like GW2, ESO, BDO, FFXIV, BnS, and CU when they finally release that game.

pvp is not dying , it was never alive to begin with, but they (a-net) are to arrogant to see the truth. NO pvp game was ever created by a developer stand point ; all were " borrowed" from creative players …. so i ll said it again as i said it at the lounch… give the players the tools to actually create game moods . Reward the best & mod it into the game if you actually want to have a game .

Saiyan.1704:

This thread is worse than a political or religious debate. A dying game is subjective and can no way to be proven true or false by anyone in this thread.

This thread is specifically about the PvP side dying, not GW2 in general. PvE is doing fine, that’s not what we’re worried about. Please don’t try to derail the thread.

/Fixing forum bug older than the game.

Pvp is always dead off season. Going into s4 most past players already got thier shiny so probably won’t join as much this season either. I know because I’m one of them. If pvp was more rewarding maybe I’ll play it more. I can make more gold in 30min pve than 2hr pvp.

I don’t go to pvp because pve provides more gold
=
I don’t go on the beach because austria has more mountains

You don’t play pvp to grind gold little man

dominik.9721:

I don’t go to pvp because pve provides more gold
=
I don’t go on the beach because austria has more mountains

You don’t play pvp to grind gold little man

If Anet wasn’t offering more and more money for pro players do you think they’d care to compete? They aren’t really doing much to keep the competition alive on any level below pro league and it shows. Rewards are important and they are kitten in PvP.

gw2 pvp is dead if you consider what anet originally wanted to achieve .
if you consider it as an addition fun game from main pve game , then it is far from dead or dying .

1250 viewers for pro league on twitch when I briefly watched it.

Many reasons to not PvP:

1: HotM is in a time suspension, there is no character progression no matter how long you play and character progression is needed to stay on par with other players in the same game.

2: Anything skillful about PvP is being replaced by passives.

3. So many Passives.

4. Sitting in long kitten ques, to fight a 4v5 and somehow manage to grind up ranks has no accomplishment outside of your own value, there is no badge to show your achievements in the never ending game that is Fashion Wars.

5. Classes are either FORCED into builds or are considered unhealthy for the team.

6. For loot based players, lack of loot.

7. For skill based players, the MMR gives matches that are too lopsided.

Best reasons to PvP:

There is a bank, merchant and trading post next to each other near a waypoint, convenient right?