Guild Wars 2

Reddit thread update : https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3o32gk/guild_wars_2s_stealth_mechanic/

Since Acandis always tells me that A-net doesn’t respond unless there are bullet points involved I will add some for your reading pleasure. Also everything below is covered in the video I provided above

The drawbacks of stealth in different MMO’s

-World Of Warcraft-

• Players that detect you will hear a sound, chance of player detection based off distance increases as you get closer. This also depends on the viewing angle, ex- standing in front of enemy higher chance than behind.

• Taking Any Damage such as attacking will remove stealth, with a few minor exceptions such as distract or pick pocket, and sapping.

• Most damage taken (including Aoe’s and Dot’s will remove stealth, fall damage does not remove it.

• You cannot enter stealth while in combat, however rogues can use vanish to equivalent effect.

-Archeage-

• Any actions other than moving will cause stealth to end

• Also has player detection based off distance

-Black Desert-

• No stealth class and no stealth mechanics, but there is a invisible mode that if you activate it before combat it takes your icon off the minimap. And enemies will not see your name in the game world. I felt this was worth listing since they don’t even have stealth to begin with.

-Star Wars The Old Republic-

• Stealth slows down your movement 85% of normal

• Also has player detection based off distance.

-Elder Scrolls Online-

• You are completely invisible to the opposing players unless you get too close or attack, not a successful attack, aka player detection based off distance.

-Wildstar-

• Also has player detection based off distance.

……….Do you see a pattern?

-Guild Wars 2-

• No detection based off distance

• Attacking an enemy that has aegis does not reveal you.

• All attacks that miss do not reveal you from stealth

• Few reveal abilities offered in the expansion

Player detection based off distance with stealth has been in almost every mmo that has incorporated stealth in some way. It’s pretty much a staple and yet guild wars 2 doesn’t have it, why? I understand by doing this this would spell a nerf to classes that incorporate stealth into their builds. But at the same time it promotes skillful play based off positioning. I’ll leave it to you to balance out the classes past that point, but if I have any suggestions I’ll let you know.

Countless

Those games also have an infinite duration for stealth, GW2 does not. I am not a fan of the stealth mechanics currently (at least Stealth in combat) but that is a big big thing you glossed over.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Feedback-In-Combat-stealth/first

Zietlogik.6208:

Those games also have an infinite duration for stealth, GW2 does not. I am not a fan of the stealth mechanics currently (at least Stealth in combat) but that is a big big thing you glossed over.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Feedback-In-Combat-stealth/first

you are fooling yourself if you think perma stealth doesn’t exist in GW2. the perma stealth is worse in GW2 than any of those games because you can start your perma stealth any time, no cooldown at all.

Mogar.9216:

Zietlogik.6208:

Those games also have an infinite duration for stealth, GW2 does not. I am not a fan of the stealth mechanics currently (at least Stealth in combat) but that is a big big thing you glossed over.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Feedback-In-Combat-stealth/first

you are fooling yourself if you think perma stealth doesn’t exist in GW2. the perma stealth is worse in GW2 than any of those games because you can start your perma stealth any time, no cooldown at all.

Well, thats why you cant cap when stealthed

I have to agree with pretty much everything you’ve said here, though stealth has bothered me less since PU was nerfed. The stealth classes aren’t especially overpowered at present, but the mechanic is frustrating simply because once a player has stealthed, they’re essentially gone. It’s an absolutely amazing escape, and some of them have a tremendous duration.

Maybe giving a few more ways to detect stealth to various professions and limiting stealth durations a bit would help. I’d be scared that a detection mechanic based on distance might nerf thieves a bit too hard, and they’re not in need of a nerf at present.

Another thought is that perhaps stealths could have a damage threshold to unstealth them. I.e. if a player stealths but you manage to guess his location with a powerful AoE, maybe that knocks him out of stealth (but not just any damage, like those from small constant auras and large area spells).

Trigr.6481:

• You cannot enter stealth while in combat, however rogues can use vanish to equivalent effect.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Vanish:

Vanish is a core rogue ability learned at level 34. It allows the rogue to disappear from sight, entering an improved stealth mode for three seconds; it also breaks movement impairing effects. All aggroed mobs on the rogue will exit combat and return to their original locations or turn to other players if the rogue is in a party. During the three seconds any damage the rogue takes will not break stealth. After the three seconds, the rogue will enter normal [Stealth].

So, comparatively speaking (with WoW), GW2 does not have stealth, but some classes have access to vanish. Your comparison with WoW does not stand; WoW instead implements a similar mechanic to GW2’s stealth, and also allows any and all classes to freely enter a more... fragile version, with no time limit. You could even argue for such a thing in WvW to be added to GW2, but in terms of SPvP, having free unlimited albeit fragile out-of-combat-only stealth on a conquest map would create more complaints.

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

Conclusion? Your comparison is inaccurate and one-sided, and even if it weren’t, every implementation, at one time or another, was new and stood either alone in what it aimed to achieve, or stood different to all other implementations aiming to achieve a similar result, so the argument "it doesn’t conform to a pattern of similar implementations seen in similar MMOs with similar combat systems (note similar, because the differences are key to arguing for/against and justification, not pattern conformity) does not hold up, and is also invalid just like the comparison.

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

Mogar.9216:

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

There is alot of meaning, stealth in games like WoW dont even really use a skill, it is just a profession button you hit and you are in stealth. GW2 you need to use your combos, you need to use skills, utilities, you need to specc for it, it isn’t just something that is available to every build a thief has freely, you need to put some effort into being stealthed for longer periods of time…and even then, very very rarely perma.

Zietlogik.6208:

Mogar.9216:

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

There is alot of meaning, stealth in games like WoW dont even really use a skill, it is just a profession button you hit and you are in stealth. GW2 you need to use your combos, you need to use skills, utilities, you need to specc for it, it isn’t just something that is available to every build a thief has freely, you need to put some effort into being stealthed for longer periods of time…and even then, very very rarely perma.

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth, I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

Honestly I just wish you could see outgoing damage when attacking someone in stealth. As in if you crit them the big white numbers pop up on the screen kind of thing. Right now you really have no clue if you’re hitting them or not. At least if you could see the numbers coming up you’d have a better idea of where they were at.

The list kinda conveniently leaves out that in many games you stealth by just hitting the stealth button and can then just sit in that stealth as long as you want until something reveals you.

In GW2, you have to actively trigger stealth through a number of abilities or interactions with combo fields and must continually reapply the stealth to prevent a reveal. These actions are generally costly in terms of cooldown or initiative and most builds can’t maintain permastealth even if they spend everything they have towards maintaining it.

So yea, technically if stealth was more realistic, you’d have a greater chance of detecting when they’re nearby, but arguing realism in video games is generally pretty ridiculous. =P

…

Why do people hate stealth, it’s such an easy mechanic to beat..

1. stealth in those games is infinite, i can afk for hours in stealth on character somewhere in the corner w/o doing anything
2. idk about other games, but in wow if you don’t attack or get attacked you lose combat after 6 sec, so getting stealth up is actually not THAT hard if you are decent and know how LOS
3. i played stealth classes in various games and i found gw2 stealth actually requires more skill to pull off (at least in pvp on thief) than in any of those mentioned games; in gw2 timing and positioning is very important
4. in wow you need target for most spells, meaning stealth is actually way stronger there than in gw2 where you can spam all skills all you want regardless wither you have target or not (besides few exception)
5. rogues in wow had spells that made them immune to attacks outside of stealth and also spells that gave them access to stealth attacks w/o having stealth; gw2 is different story
6. in gw2 you have whole trait line requireing stealth, you don’t have that in other games
7. none of those games have such abudance of revealed debuff

while this is not directly about stealth, the stealth based classes i played in other games were all doing extremely high single target dmg and usually had high cc uptime….. thieves are nowhere near that for example, mesmers are different story~

back then when i was playing wow, if i opened on you, you would be dead within 3-5 sec, regardless trinkets/defensives etc.

Meanwhile the best stealth class in the game is in the worst spot in sPvP.

-3 years into game’s existence to l2p against a predictable mechanic
-Many hard counters to stealth inc with HoT
-Stealth is still somehow OP

Thanks, gave me a good chuckle

If anyone bothered to equip analyze or sic em stealth would become complete garbage.

Mogar.9216:

Zietlogik.6208:

Mogar.9216:

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

There is alot of meaning, stealth in games like WoW dont even really use a skill, it is just a profession button you hit and you are in stealth. GW2 you need to use your combos, you need to use skills, utilities, you need to specc for it, it isn’t just something that is available to every build a thief has freely, you need to put some effort into being stealthed for longer periods of time…and even then, very very rarely perma.

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth, I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

Off hand dagger hit anything equals perma stealth? It’s pretty obvious you don’t main a thief.
1. If you use Cloak and dagger while stealthed, you get revealed.
2. If you use Cloak and dagger to stealth, well you weren’t stealthed to begin with.

Nerf it because it makes killing things harder for me!

Can I say that no classes in those games uses it like thief(this is a thief thread mesmer wouldn’t care) and none have it integrated like it either so bad comparison. Stealth to them is what stealth in GW2 is to engi or mesmer. If revealed was constantly applied everywhere literally only thief would care that’s how you know your mentality and theirs about stealth is not the right one.

In the meanwhile people can 1 hit anything from 1200 range. But they have no stealth so it’s fine.

Beetamus.6403:

Mogar.9216:

Zietlogik.6208:

Mogar.9216:

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

There is alot of meaning, stealth in games like WoW dont even really use a skill, it is just a profession button you hit and you are in stealth. GW2 you need to use your combos, you need to use skills, utilities, you need to specc for it, it isn’t just something that is available to every build a thief has freely, you need to put some effort into being stealthed for longer periods of time…and even then, very very rarely perma.

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth, I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

Off hand dagger hit anything equals perma stealth? It’s pretty obvious you don’t main a thief.
1. If you use Cloak and dagger while stealthed, you get revealed.
2. If you use Cloak and dagger to stealth, well you weren’t stealthed to begin with.

lol you fail to point out all you need to do is wait for stealth to wear off for a fraction of a second to cnd again to regain stealth to get around revealed. So yes it’s not ‘perma’ stealth but for all practical purposes it might as well be. The best player in the world would not be able to do anything in that split second to attack you let along even to see where you are at.

Mogar.9216:

Beetamus.6403:

Mogar.9216:

Zietlogik.6208:

Mogar.9216:

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

There is alot of meaning, stealth in games like WoW dont even really use a skill, it is just a profession button you hit and you are in stealth. GW2 you need to use your combos, you need to use skills, utilities, you need to specc for it, it isn’t just something that is available to every build a thief has freely, you need to put some effort into being stealthed for longer periods of time…and even then, very very rarely perma.

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth, I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

Off hand dagger hit anything equals perma stealth? It’s pretty obvious you don’t main a thief.
1. If you use Cloak and dagger while stealthed, you get revealed.
2. If you use Cloak and dagger to stealth, well you weren’t stealthed to begin with.

lol you fail to point out all you need to do is wait for stealth to wear off for a fraction of a second to cnd again to regain stealth to get around revealed. So yes it’s not ‘perma’ stealth but for all practical purposes it might as well be. The best player in the world would not be able to do anything in that split second to attack you let along even to see where you are at.

I didn’t fail to mention anything, you clearly said off hand dagger hit anything equals perma stealth, which it doesn’t…
As a side note, while you can keep Cloak and Dagger going for a while (not indefinately, not enough initiative regen) blocks, blinds, invulns and evades stop it from working.

As a long time MMO player who’ve tried possibly every stealth-based/agile fighter class in those MMOs, I feel the need to retaliate against this post.

It seems like you too have played those games and made a concise list on differences in their mechanics. However, your bias is quickly “revealed” as you’ve left out probably the most important differences between gw2 stealth and other MMOs that are mentioned.

-Other MMOs have a very high duration/permanent duration of stealth, while gw2 stealth requires active management of skills/cooldowns to keep their uptime. There’s only 1 build in this game that maintains permanent uptime of stealth (with certain weaknesses that can be exposed by experienced players) and that is the trapper condi thief in WvW. While this is a very unfortunate use of broken mechanic, it does have counters and I’m sure it will get addressed when the issue is significant enough for Anet for said game mode. Any other stealth-using class is susceptible to interruption, counter play and/or reveal.

-You’ve talked about drawbacks in stealth for other MMOs. However, as there’s a drawback in movement speed for stealth in other MMOs, the classes themselves have great movement speed increase to compensate for that and completely negate that drawback. Also in WoW, for example, you can prevent getting hit by skills by using spell-immunity skill “Cloak and shadows” (if I recall correctly), thus preventing your stealth to be broken right after you’ve entered it. Combining these “counter-counter-stealth mechanics” with REAL permanent uptime, you’ll see that its much more powerful than what we have in gw2.

-You’ve conveniently left out the Reveal mechanic which exists in gw2. There are classes that can reliably apply this status which rips off any existing stealth and prevents from gaining stealth for a considerable amount of time. Pre-HoT we had engineers and rangers capable of doing so. With HoT, scrappers, revenants and dragon hunters will all have access to Reveals which further introduces a forced counter play (which I believe is a bad implementation).

-Many MMOs grant classes such as thieves an abundance of fighting mechanics to aid the longevity of their battle with opponents. Clearing conditions, blocking attacks, increase of evasiveness with % of dodging attacks etc… However, the Thief class in gw2 is packed with most potent offensive AND defensive abilities integral to stealth mechanic. In other MMOs, stealth is, exactly like you’ve mentioned, used for creating an opening, planning an attack or taking the enemy by suprise. For thieves in gw2, its their source of damage AND defensives packed altogether, thus having a counter like receiving damage would be too unforgiving.

-For the mesmer class, the clone mechanics or conditions allow the mesmer to keep damaging opponents while remaining in stealth, however clones can be easily cleaved thus negating the entirity of the damage and conditions can be cleansed (well – condi stealth mesmers are still very cancerous I’ll give you that). Developers deemed PU (stealth increase trait) too powerful enough to implement a nerf already, and while I think its still quite not there yet, mesmers are in a much more balanced state at the moment.

The claims you have made, regarding stealth being broken and its causing the game to be a “no-skill game” is ironically and absurdly wrong because that is PRECISELY why Gw2 is a skill based game. Playing against classes with stealth access is only hard if you fail to have an understanding of how it can be countered. There are a lot of ways it can be done with pretty much any class, even when reveal is excluded. Therefore, stealth is not grabbing anyone’s hand…however the expectation to counter it easier than it can be done does, and it doesn’t show anything other than your lack of experience and skill in understanding how advanced gw2’s pvp system is.

If you’re not enjoying the prospect of personal progression and experience to overcome difficult mechanics in the game, maybe the alternatives you approve are better choices for you to hold your hand for it.

Cheers.

Mogar.9216:

Beetamus.6403:

Mogar.9216:

Zietlogik.6208:

Mogar.9216:

Impact.2780:

I too, noticed that you avoided mentioning the fact that stealth (and vanish) expire after a short time (with the exception of Prismatic Understanding buffed stealth which I argue should never have existed).

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!#$$ there are SOOOO MANY ways to chain stealth it’s not even funny the fact each stealth skill only give you a short period of stealth is meaningless .

There is alot of meaning, stealth in games like WoW dont even really use a skill, it is just a profession button you hit and you are in stealth. GW2 you need to use your combos, you need to use skills, utilities, you need to specc for it, it isn’t just something that is available to every build a thief has freely, you need to put some effort into being stealthed for longer periods of time…and even then, very very rarely perma.

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth, I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

Off hand dagger hit anything equals perma stealth? It’s pretty obvious you don’t main a thief.
1. If you use Cloak and dagger while stealthed, you get revealed.
2. If you use Cloak and dagger to stealth, well you weren’t stealthed to begin with.

lol you fail to point out all you need to do is wait for stealth to wear off for a fraction of a second to cnd again to regain stealth to get around revealed. So yes it’s not ‘perma’ stealth but for all practical purposes it might as well be. The best player in the world would not be able to do anything in that split second to attack you let along even to see where you are at.

What a nonsense…. And the claim that best player in the world can’t counter Cloak and Dagger… which is as simple as counting to 4 and dodge or use one of the million ways to blind/block/invuln damage to prevent the stealth chain just baffles me.

Regarding d/p: News flash! If you port inside a thief’s black powder, they hit you and reveal themselves… Mind blowing right? -_-’’

This is exactly why we have a community divided in two regarding stealth:

1) Those who know what stealthed classes are doing and know their weaknesses, thus exposing them when the opportunity comes.
2) Those who aren’t remotely familiar with stealth mechanics and fail to counter play them.

Thief there, nerf stealth buff thiefs survi thief dmg (since i will be able to backstab only start of the game i wanna 15k dmg+ burn + torment + slow + chill).

Stealth isnt rly problem in gw2, i dont understand ppl claiming its OP, only mesmer can deal effective dmg on stealth (technicly they only use stealth to safe stack clones), if trap/caltrops thief ever kills you please consider yourself a rly rly rly! bad player. I play Condi Thief in wvw only to make enemies so angry, yet i cant rly score much kills, i just annoy them to death/ragequitt (ofc if they leave and go do thier jobs i wont get kitten but for some reasons ppl tend to stay and try to kill 1 thief)
Short stealth is fine in gw2 cuz it gives you option to reposition. EVERY class that has stealth relies on it to make ambush. If you stay in invis too long you wont be effective, almost every class has a way to counterplay atleast 1/2 ambushes. Ranger signet Warrior Endure pain Mesmer Yolo f4 or sword2 ele is unkillable anyway but still has trait that chills u and negates 10% of ur dmg if u hit them whats even funnier is that you wont ever hit them harder than they hit you(cele ele hits 3,5k dmg with Burning speed, best hit you will get vs him with backstab is around 3.5k~4k, guards aegis/3hit shield/shelter/elite engi blocks/elixir/yolo boots(i would add supply crate to the list but not sure if everyone would agree with me), Necro multiple chills/fears/deathshround/plague thieves shadowstep (there is not much you can do as thief if ambushed. and its ok since its your weapon)

Can anyone tell me why not seeing enemy for 3 sec in fight is so hard to deal with? You arent cc, even if enemy resets you are back to full hp, they cant cap(actualy they let you cap/decap if they go invis… thats why THIEF CANT DEF), where is the problem? Why ppl think of stealth like some sort of godmode, you can still see with auto chain if you hit enemy, aoe can nuke you hard, you can still HEAR if stealthed enemy is downed, and most of classes that use stealth are paper that can get killed instantly with 2/3 hits from nonstealth class (even godly maruder engi without blocks and elixir and vamp runes will be dead in 2 sec without stealth)
If you want to nerf something, nerf burn stacking…

Personally, I hate stealth in every game I’ve played. I think it’s cheap and annoying, but I do understand why it’s there and why some people enjoy it. In my opinion stealth isn’t op in the current game. Preventing capture contribution is enough of a disadvantage and during a fight there are some ways to play around it.

However, I still have a problem with how stealth currently works for a different reason. I would like a team death match game mode (3v3 or 2v2). Sadly, because it’s incredibly easy for a team to maintain permanent stealth, it would never be balanced or even enjoyable since the team that drops stealth first loses. (This is exactly how it goes in courtyard, although courtyard itself is far from how I would picture tdm in this game.)

Also, not getting revealed when your attack is blocked or misses doesn’t make any sense and is kittening bullkitten.

I still think that if a stealthed player hits an enemy currently blocking (aegis or block skill) he should get revealed.

Missing any ability should reveal you just as if u hit it. This would be soo nice!

Obindo.6802:

Missing any ability should reveal you just as if u hit it. This would be soo nice!

Why? It would be so nice because it helps you be better without putting an effort to it? Okay…

Realistically speaking, if you were to be attacked by something invisible and rolled, and nobody hit you, how would you know they’re there? Unless you get hit, you don’t know its there — do you? So reveal happening with damage, is even realistically reasonable, not that it should be in any way as its a video game. -_-

bliss.4305:

Obindo.6802:

Missing any ability should reveal you just as if u hit it. This would be soo nice!

Why? It would be so nice because it helps you be better without putting an effort to it? Okay…

Realistically speaking, if you were to be attacked by something invisible and rolled, and nobody hit you, how would you know they’re there? Unless you get hit, you don’t know its there — do you? So reveal happening with damage, is even realistically reasonable, not that it should be in any way as its a video game. -_-

Actually if you roll when someone is about to stealth attack you, you will see “Evaded” popup that can rly help to win vs thief backstab.

Fun fact that with all punish thief gets when he plays bad, with all survi and dmg nerf he had just to get “backstab play” balanced for other classes. Ppl still think Backstab is problem, After playing thief for years i started playing every class. ITS RLY FUN to see how much game doesnt punish other classes for playing bad. Yet still lets punish thief harder. You guys seriously need to play other classes.
Backstab: Can be evaded, single target, you need to be invis to use, need to flank for more dmg.
Burning Speed: 10 sec cd, same dmg as backstab, burnfield, evade so no1 can stop it, AOE hit. (i wrote same dmg cuz Cele will get 3/4k dmg from bs without buffs, and Thief will get 3/4k dmg from burning speed)
ShatteredAegis- trait, everytime your aegis breaks it bursts enemies around you. For some reason this trait sometimes hit not 1 but 2x making it 3k burst.
Shield of Wrath- dont even get me started with dmg this skill deals
Maul- low cd aoe backstab for rangers
u+1clone shatter
AND MANY MORE.

Every class hits harder than thief, survives better than thief, how the f we consider 1 thief burst skill to be soo op. DEFENSIVE TRAITS AND ABILITIES deal more dmg to thief than thief deals to you.

Mefiq.7039:

bliss.4305:

Obindo.6802:

Missing any ability should reveal you just as if u hit it. This would be soo nice!

Why? It would be so nice because it helps you be better without putting an effort to it? Okay…

Realistically speaking, if you were to be attacked by something invisible and rolled, and nobody hit you, how would you know they’re there? Unless you get hit, you don’t know its there — do you? So reveal happening with damage, is even realistically reasonable, not that it should be in any way as its a video game. -_-

Actually if you roll when someone is about to stealth attack you, you will see “Evaded” popup that can rly help to win vs thief backstab.

Fun fact that with all punish thief gets when he plays bad, with all survi and dmg nerf he had just to get “backstab play” balanced for other classes. Ppl still think Backstab is problem, After playing thief for years i started playing every class. ITS RLY FUN to see how much game doesnt punish other classes for playing bad. Yet still lets punish thief harder. You guys seriously need to play other classes.
Backstab: Can be evaded, single target, you need to be invis to use, need to flank for more dmg.
Burning Speed: 10 sec cd, same dmg as backstab, burnfield, evade so no1 can stop it, AOE hit. (i wrote same dmg cuz Cele will get 3/4k dmg from bs without buffs, and Thief will get 3/4k dmg from burning speed)
ShatteredAegis- trait, everytime your aegis breaks it bursts enemies around you. For some reason this trait sometimes hit not 1 but 2x making it 3k burst.
Shield of Wrath- dont even get me started with dmg this skill deals
Maul- low cd aoe backstab for rangers
u+1clone shatter
AND MANY MORE.

Every class hits harder than thief, survives better than thief, how the f we consider 1 thief burst skill to be soo op. DEFENSIVE TRAITS AND ABILITIES deal more dmg to thief than thief deals to you.

Voice of reason man… I started to feel whole nerf thief discussion is as though Thief vs Inexperience. I’m occasionally playing a Soldier Engineer with Elixir S, Elixir X, Tool Kit and Grenade Kit because having 2 thieves in pvp is just…. asking for a loss. I can make so many mistakes and still survive for extended periods of time and be viable is out of this world…

And yet we still have people complain about Backstab. Just unbelieveable…

bliss.4305:

Playing against classes with stealth access is only hard if you fail to have an understanding of how it can be countered. and it doesn’t show anything other than your lack of experience and skill in understanding how advanced gw2’s pvp system is.

Lets get a few things straight. Personally for me, I don’t have a problem winning more than the majority of my fights in a 1v1 scenario, against opponents with and without stealth. There are not many thieves and mesmers that I would even consider to be a threat in a 1v1 matchup in conquest. However having ease against classes that use stealth does not mean that the mechanic of stealth is not flawed. Your simply mistaking player skill with flawed game mechanics. They are two different issues entirely.

Countless

Trigr.6481:

bliss.4305:

Playing against classes with stealth access is only hard if you fail to have an understanding of how it can be countered. and it doesn’t show anything other than your lack of experience and skill in understanding how advanced gw2’s pvp system is.

Lets get a few things straight. Personally for me, I don’t have a problem winning more than the majority of my fights in a 1v1 scenario, against opponents with and without stealth. There are not many thieves and mesmers that I would even consider to be a threat in a 1v1 matchup in conquest. However having ease against classes that use stealth does not mean that the mechanic of stealth is not flawed. Your simply mistaking player skill with flawed game mechanics. They are two different issues entirely.

Countless

So do you win every 1vs1 matchup vs thieves cos you always outplay them and not because thieves are extremely weak in every 1v1 fight.
Stealth is OP, every thief sucks except 1 or 2 in top teams and you are not being carried by an OP class while thieves in the meanwhile still lose at you even if they are being carried by stealth. That sounds right.

Kolly.9872:

So do you win every 1vs1 matchup vs thieves cos you always outplay them and not because thieves are extremely weak in every 1v1 fight.
Stealth is OP, every thief sucks except 1 or 2 in top teams and you are not being carried by an OP class while thieves in the meanwhile still lose at you even if they are being carried by stealth. That sounds right.

Countless is probably one of the best mesmer’s in the game. He wins his 1v1’s based off of skill. Even when mesmer was kitten and thief was amazing, he was still able to beat me 1v1.

FeelsAlright.5860:

Kolly.9872:

So do you win every 1vs1 matchup vs thieves cos you always outplay them and not because thieves are extremely weak in every 1v1 fight.
Stealth is OP, every thief sucks except 1 or 2 in top teams and you are not being carried by an OP class while thieves in the meanwhile still lose at you even if they are being carried by stealth. That sounds right.

Countless is probably one of the best mesmer’s in the game. He wins his 1v1’s based off of skill. Even when mesmer was kitten and thief was amazing, he was still able to beat me 1v1.

I was just answering to the statement ‘’stealth is op but 98% of the thief community suck that’s why they cannot win 1vs1’’
Still I don’t see any top player complaining about stealth.

Hm… Some people seem to be missing the point here…

Stealth is a problem not because of duration or accessibility… But because you can’t see what your opponent is doing at all which means you can’t do anything but make an educated guess on how to counter their next attack.

Example: A Warrior using a hammer is easy to fight because the attacks are slow and telegraphed. You know what animation is going to lead in to what attack. But then suddenly that Warrior goes invisible and now you have no clue what attack is coming next…

There really shouldn’t ever, or at least very rarely, be an option to remove counterplay.

And no for god sake stopping them from stealthing isn’t the solution. I’m talking about fighting someone who is invisible and not being able to know what they are doing. Is that Thief going to backstab me, Shadowshot, swap to shortbow, run away? Only they know. I’m not saying it makes Thief easy to play, I’m not saying stealth is a great mechanic for PvP because it’s not because it disallows them to contest a point, I’m saying it removes counterplay.

If they’re going to attack you, they’ll reveal themselves. If they’re running away, youll be placed out of combat.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

But because you can’t see what your opponent is doing at all which means you can’t do anything but make an educated guess on how to counter their next attack.

That’s the point. Playing a guessing game is not difficult. If a thief is winning, theyll stick around. If they are not, most likely they will run. Using your brain should not be an inconvenience.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

I’m saying it removes counterplay.

No it doesnt. Some classes can reveal instantly by pressing one button. Interestingly enough, thieves do not have counterplay to this.

Tl;dr keep finger on stunbreak button. when revealed, cc.

You can still be hit if you stealth, you cant cap or decap while stealth.. if all you do when dying is stealth and run away you will lose, because the other team are getting objectives, stealth is annoying just as mesmer clones, but is pretty balanced, if you cant kill someone because they stealth and run away guess what? You still won because you are making points for your team while he is not.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Hm… Some people seem to be missing the point here…

Stealth is a problem not because of duration or accessibility… But because you can’t see what your opponent is doing at all which means you can’t do anything but make an educated guess on how to counter their next attack.

You’re a sight for sore eyes.

Dear OP and everyone in this thread,

Boy, do I have a solution for you! These two simple tricks will solve all of your problems in pvp! You all ready? I know I am!

Here!

We!

Goooooooooooooo!

1.) If you die, accept you lost and get better. (because that is the point of pvp)

2.) If you can’t get better, use the thing that is killing you all the time. (because it might be the build)

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Honestly I just wish you could see outgoing damage when attacking someone in stealth. As in if you crit them the big white numbers pop up on the screen kind of thing. Right now you really have no clue if you’re hitting them or not. At least if you could see the numbers coming up you’d have a better idea of where they were at.

Two ways to get a simmilar effect.

• Use rune of fire: crits have a chance of flame blast which is visible and spawns on the person hit (centered)

• Use a ‘chain’ ability (most melee auto attacks have this) and watch for the chain to move past the ‘first’ ability meaning you have landed an attack

@Kolly – If you have watched Helseth stream of late, he dislikes the game-play of PU and has been vocal about the mechanic being way too forgiving.
@yolo – Countless is one of the best Mesmers in PvP and has demonstrated he has very little problem fighting against any class. I mention this because it is important to view the post based on the fact that this is coming from a top tier player, not someone struggling with how best to face off against a Thief or Mesmer. Of course, you may disagree with his opinion but there just maybe something to chew on when players of this skill level feel strongly enough to voice their concern about something they’re feeling in-game.

Trigr.6481:

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Hm… Some people seem to be missing the point here…

Stealth is a problem not because of duration or accessibility… But because you can’t see what your opponent is doing at all which means you can’t do anything but make an educated guess on how to counter their next attack.

You’re a sight for sore eyes.

Is this an insult or a compliment? And if an insult can you elaborate?

Not sure what a few of my responders mean with their comments. Since they’re still 100% missing the point.

bliss.4305:

Obindo.6802:

Missing any ability should reveal you just as if u hit it. This would be soo nice!

Why? It would be so nice because it helps you be better without putting an effort to it? Okay…

Realistically speaking, if you were to be attacked by something invisible and rolled, and nobody hit you, how would you know they’re there? Unless you get hit, you don’t know its there — do you? So reveal happening with damage, is even realistically reasonable, not that it should be in any way as its a video game. -_-

It says evade or miss on screen if they miss/get evaded. The rest doesn’t make sense so dunno what to say.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Hm… Some people seem to be missing the point here…

Stealth is a problem not because of duration or accessibility… But because you can’t see what your opponent is doing at all which means you can’t do anything but make an educated guess on how to counter their next attack.

Example: A Warrior using a hammer is easy to fight because the attacks are slow and telegraphed. You know what animation is going to lead in to what attack. But then suddenly that Warrior goes invisible and now you have no clue what attack is coming next…

There really shouldn’t ever, or at least very rarely, be an option to remove counterplay.

And no for god sake stopping them from stealthing isn’t the solution. I’m talking about fighting someone who is invisible and not being able to know what they are doing. Is that Thief going to backstab me, Shadowshot, swap to shortbow, run away? Only they know. I’m not saying it makes Thief easy to play, I’m not saying stealth is a great mechanic for PvP because it’s not because it disallows them to contest a point, I’m saying it removes counterplay.

Well said my friend!

This is the PvP forums. Not general or WvW but PvP.

Stealth here has limited uses. When rezzing it will be met with cleave, and on point it is almost useless. Out side of initial confrontation and some tricky mechanics (like stealthing jugg so they get the first hit in) it is not an issue. Let me say it again it is not an issue for this community. Ranked play rarely rely on stealth builds outside get a burst off. When on point it is a liability often.

I can understand you think there is no counter play but there is. Lets be realistic. Most of us know stealth goes about 3 seconds in most cases. Most attacks come a little less than 2 seconds in. Some players dodge others block but you know that most stealth skills have a very short duration. So it isn’t that hard to counter in PvP.

Ground based targeting skills, aoe, cleave, blocks, timed dodges, and skills that force revealed all work as a counter.

If this were WvW where admittedly I use stealth to on most of my solo roaming builds I could understand your frustration (but even then there are work arounds). The issue is this is the PvP forums. Stealth here for the average player is not a game changer but an annoyance.

Mogar.9216:

dagger + a pistol = perma stealth no matter what build. off hand dagger hit anything = perma stealth

Sadly, these are not accurate statements. Initiative does not allow that. A Thief may be able to get off 2 Black Powder + Heartseeker combos before running out of initiative. A Thief MAY be able to chain 3 Cloak and Daggers before running out of initiative.

To extend Stealth beyond that requires traits, utilities, and/or runes.

Mogar.9216:

I still have ‘fond’ memories of thieves only fight beside walls to free cnd off it for stealth. I can keep on going if you want and I don’t even main thief.

However, these are quite accurate statements. The memories do exist, but that’s all they are. Perma-stealth off of walls has been removed.

Ps. Also remember that a Thief in Stealth is a pretty harmless Thief. There are very few ways he can cause damage without Revealing himself, and they are easily absorbed, ignored, or countered.

To re-quote an idea below, if their was a some type of visual feedback that helps locate the general area a stealthed foes was in would fights be funner?

The object is to provide positive feedback for players fighting stealthed foes which at the moment feels like either their dead, your dead or their running away, with no feedback for the duration of the fight.

Bezagron.7352:

Though this could use its own discussion & was an idea I had for stealth to provide combat feedback which could make stealth battles more fun for all parties overall.

How would players feel if there was a little more visual feedback to stealth battles?
Do others have any other ideas?

With regard to stealth the thing I don’t like about it is it’s a all or nothing, You can’t see them you can’t heard them & you can’t see or heard environment effects caused by them (eg. grass/plant/water movement) that could give away their position / intent. Their gone of your screen with all you can do is wait or fire off ability for almost no feedback. For the stealth builds if denied stealth they loss to much survivability & some also their main source of damage.

Stealth Gameplay Feedbacks
Now I like stealth it’s just can very frustrating to fight against because of no feedback. Part of the problem is skill or traits that relies on stealth to function. So an idea I had to provide a bit more feedback is:

• Blood Strains – If damaged the thief/stealth build leaves a small hard to see blood stain behind after a small delay (Allows for repositioning so not directly giving professions position away) while still staying in stealth. Blood strains could stack if damaged multiply times increasing their visibility.
• Leap/teleport impacts – leave a small hard to see ground damage effect after leaping or teleporting, again with a small delay to allow reposition.

These changes would provide some visual feedback while I believe not overly impacting overall stealth gameplay. Making it funner to fight against stealth foes with out needing hard stealth counters which can be unfun for stealth builds.

Bezagron.7352:

An addition also could be if an attack is blocked or evade they also apply a ground damaging effect but this time with no delay indicating their right there. Providing some advantage for players to respond to & some minor punishment so failing a stealth attack.

The advantage of doing it this way is it doesn’t play both players into combat still allowing blocks & evades to be used when trying to escape without being placed in combat.

The main point is to provide positive feedback for both foes against stealth & builds stealthed.

Sorry off topic.. but just thought this could be used to bait foes into traps helping also to improve trap gameplay.

I personally have mentioned (a while ago) how they can overhaul the stealth mechanic while still adding solid counter-play. Adding a silhouette to anyone in stealth (similar to the one visible that you see when your character is in stealth) it will allow enemies to see that person and allow people to easily track them if they are paying close attention.

I’ll honestly say the stealth mechanic in this game requires more than a simple solution like,“stealth skills that were blocked, evaded or missed now reveal”. It doesn’t do anything to thieves when they can just eat blocks (aegis) and just stealth spam until the block duration on weapon skills fades.

Instead of a silhouette I prefer a delayed visual clue that provides general indication of location. Even without seeing them knowing their location you can widen/close the distance, cleave & place AoEs with better positioning & feedback.

A delayed clue could also benefit stealthed builds in the way of baiting players into the position their want. For me the largest problem when fighting a stealthed foe is feedback, stealth is binary with no middle ground. What it needs is this middle ground both parties can play with.