Guild Wars 2

As the title suggests, core specs MUST stand on the same playing field as elite specs. It is absolutely essential for the health of the game, and it needs to be done ASAP. Starting on lights and going to heavies:

Reaper:

-The damage reduction from “Rise!” needs to be reduced from 50% to 20% (at the absolute most)

-The cooldown on “Your soul is mine!” needs to be increased (Traited it is on a 18s cd, and not traited it is on a 20s cd)

-Greatsword is fine.

Chronomancer:

-Shield 4 should block ONCE and create ONE phantasm, especially since the phantasm created applies quickness and slow.

-Illusionary reversion should have an ICD, as well as Chronophantasma

-Gravity well needs a longer cooldown, from 90s to maybe 120s

-Revert the moa nerf, and make Continuum split not interactable with the elite skills

Tempest:

-Reduce the healing from applying auras

-Reduce healing from water overload

-Reduce damage from air overload

-Increase recharge on “Rebound!”, “Feel the burn!” and “Flash Freeze!”

-Increase damage on all weapon skills

Scrapper:

-Remove the reflect on Hammer 2

-Remove evade on hammer 3

-Slightly reduce damage on hammer skills

-Increase the cd of blast gyro from 15s to 30s (cc on a 15s cd is a bit out of hand)

-Increase the ICD on Function gyro from 20s to 30s

Druid:

-Reduce the daze time from Glyph of Equality to 1 second

-Reduce the amount of healing in Celestial avatar

-Reduce healing or damage on staff auto

-Reduce healing on Ancestral Grace

-Reduce healing on Astral Wisp

Daredevil:

-Reduce damage on vault

-Reduce damage on Weakening Charge

-Reduce damage on bound (damage dodge)

-Reduce condi duration on Impaling lotus (condi dodge)

-Put an ICD on removing condis for Unhindered combatant

-Increase the cd on bandit’s defense

Berserker:

-Increase the cd on headbutt from 20s to 30s

-Reduce damage / condi damage from all berserker burst skills

Dragonhunter:

-Reduce the amount of time spear of justice is tethered to an enemy, but increase the burn damage

-Reduce the amount of time shield of courage is active

-Longbow is fine

-Reduce damage on Test of Faith

-Herald

-*I am not familiar enough with the class, and there are issues across the board, I can’t even try to make suggestions for this one.

These changes would help increase build diversity, and ultimately fun. Please note that players play for fun.

Now, here’s how to really balance things…

Improve core professions that have been mostly neglected since launch.

Reduce cool downs on all core slot skills.

Work on the cc and stealth systems.

Create really good and various roles within each profession so there is more build variety.

Balance pvp (wvw and spvp) separately from pve.

Let’s start with those and I’ll give more amazing ideas.

Guild wars 2 will never be balanced. The foundation it was built upon isn’t balanced so anything built on top of it won’t be either. GW2 is destined to always have very extreme shifts aka something is either really good or something is either really bad. No in middle ground.

The only way to balance elite specs with core builds is to cut elite specs from the game entirely.

There are too many factors and playstyles to consider. We already have 9 classes with multiple builds, which must be balanced relative to each other if we want a balanced game.

Elite specs have potential to provide a whole new way of playing your class. Instead, they have simply become too powerful. The only way to make core builds relevant is to remove elite specs from the game altogether.

Aza.2105:

Guild wars 2 will never be balanced. The foundation it was built upon isn’t balanced so anything built on top of it won’t be either. GW2 is destined to always have very extreme shifts aka something is either really good or something is either really bad. No in middle ground.

That’s all about to change soon I think

Topher.5631:

Tempest:

-Reduce the healing from applying auras

-Reduce healing from water overload

-Reduce damage from air overload

-Increase recharge on “Rebound!”, “Feel the burn!” and “Flash Freeze!”

-Increase damage on all weapon skills

As an ele main I agree with most of this. But the reason why overload air is so strong is not because of its damage, but because of its burst (1/4 sec), radius (largest of overloads), and it hits 5 people. Meaningful nerfs would target those as well / instead

About the reaper changes…

The elite spec will still be superior as long as reaper shroud is much better then death shroud. Infact core necro has alot of utlity skills that are as powerful as the shouts so i dont think nerfing them will do anything for the core vs elite difference.

foste.3098:

What if the trait line that enhances your profession mechanic was turned in to a elite specialization (discipline, trickery, soul reaping, beast mastery, illusions, tools, invocation, virtues, arcane). This way they can giving us some build diversity (before another expansion), you ether stick with the vanila elite specs (and therefor the base class name) and 2 other core ones or the HoT elite spec (and change to the different class name) and 2 other core ones.
Of course there would have to be some rebalancing done to make the ‘new’ vanila elite competitive in power to the HoT elite, but we can all agree that the game is in need of balance as is so it woild not be a big deal.

The reason i bring this idea up is because thees specializations are used in almost every build anyway (most warrior builds take discipline, every thief pick trickery, every guardian build pick up virtues, infact only mesmer, engineer and ele do not pick theirs currently) and by making them elite the players would be forced in to a choice, and non HoT players will have access to a competitive build. This is assuming they balance them according to the power level of HoT elite specs, and every future elite spec.

I still believe this is the best course of balance in regards to the elite discrepancy. If they want elites to be above the base lines and for builds to consist of 1 elite and 2 non-elite lines fine, but this way they will make sure all players have access to one (even without a expansion) and they will force some build diversity in to the game before another expansion.

Nerf “Your soul is mine” ?? nobody uses it…

foste.3098:

foste.3098:

What if the trait line that enhances your profession mechanic was turned in to a elite specialization (discipline, trickery, soul reaping, beast mastery, illusions, tools, invocation, virtues, arcane). This way they can giving us some build diversity (before another expansion), you ether stick with the vanila elite specs (and therefor the base class name) and 2 other core ones or the HoT elite spec (and change to the different class name) and 2 other core ones.
Of course there would have to be some rebalancing done to make the ‘new’ vanila elite competitive in power to the HoT elite, but we can all agree that the game is in need of balance as is so it woild not be a big deal.

The reason i bring this idea up is because thees specializations are used in almost every build anyway (most warrior builds take discipline, every thief pick trickery, every guardian build pick up virtues, infact only mesmer, engineer and ele do not pick theirs currently) and by making them elite the players would be forced in to a choice, and non HoT players will have access to a competitive build. This is assuming they balance them according to the power level of HoT elite specs, and every future elite spec.

I still believe this is the best course of balance in regards to the elite discrepancy. If they want elites to be above the base lines and for builds to consist of 1 elite and 2 non-elite lines fine, but this way they will make sure all players have access to one (even without a expansion) and they will force some build diversity in to the game before another expansion.

Foste, you and I have been suggesting this for 7+ months now. I don’t think it’s gonna happen, despite being so obvious. The E in ‘ESpecs’ should have NEVER referred to ‘Elite’ but, rather to ‘EXCLUSIVE’! I don’t know how to be anymore emphatic about this as I feel like a broken record by now. Make the 5th line an ‘exclusive spec’ and then balance accordingly from there. Simple.

How many expansions till we see ‘supermegaOPjasonbournespecs’ Anet? Surely that will sell an expansion too… :/

Topher.5631:

-The damage reduction from “Rise!” needs to be reduced from 50% to 20% (at the absolute most), and the minions shouldn’t contribute to minion traits.

Stopped here.

MM is still not a meta build. Why are you targeting it?

Really bad changes the Druid nerf is pretty horrible also dragon hunter is bad as core already

I didn’t say mm was a meta build, but “Rise!” is a strong skill just from the 50% damage reduction. I guess in order to get the extra perks from having minions, they are having to sacrifice a trait line for one utility. So we can cross out the part about them not contributing to minion traits, but I will stand by my comment about the damage reduction.

BadSanta.6527:

Really bad changes the Druid nerf is pretty horrible also dragon hunter is bad as core already

Go into more depth on how druid changes are horrible. The problem is that every druid can heal up to full through celestial avatar, while core ranger lacks the ability. Keeping that same capability will still make the traitline mandatory and prevent build diversity. Also staff auto does the same amount of damage with a heal, and can’t be reflected back at the user like other ranged options ranger has. That is too much utility for an auto.

As for guardian, I think the ability to block EVERYTHING in front of it for 5 seconds is a lot stronger than blocking one attack with virtue of courage. That alone makes dh stronger than the core spec (there are ways around that argument, but for the average player, the pick is obvious). The utility that spear of justice also has way more utility than a stronger burn (compared to virtue of justice). Which would you rather have? A stronger one-time burn skill or a skill that pulls / burns periodically (so they can’t cleanse it).

You forget this game have ’ RAID ’ Tank Heal Dps ’ RAID ’
New elite are Design for RAID.
GW2 never balance.

i “luv” one thing about PvP forums. there are so many people with good ideas and people who are so tired of this state of pvp and wanna change things and how elite specs are pushed and how meta is alot better then any other build and how build diversity is at its worst and how power classes like chrono/daredevil are left behind and etc etc .. and yet.. no dev is replying or actively engaging people in pvp threads. even the message like " guys calm down. we are working on this and that and that.. soon it will be patched " would help those hopeful pvpers alot. yet nope. no responses. other day i totally scanned throughout the dev tracker. from that i can tell one very obvious thing – they don’t really care or know how to fix things so it ends up in a complete silence. mostly they reply to PvE stuff. like lore stories/names/legendary items or sometimes just making jokes. i encourage you to go read the whole dev tracker yourselves. maybe then you’ll realise theres no reason to post something like this in forums. nor there’s a good reason to expect good things in a near future. just play the game as it is or just.. don’t. sad tho. this game had soooo much potential.

I main engineer. I do not agree with damage reduction, I don’t see that as a problem. I think that it would make hammer completely bad compared to the core weapons after nerfing both reflect and evade from the skills. Also with removing evade on hammer 3 should make the skill in to three parts like some thief skills, because once you have started hammer 3 there is no easy way to cancel the attack. If it didn’t evade I would have died many times because I am jumping straight in to traps that are placed after I press the skill. I would like a fix to it anyway, there are so many times I have healed Revenant to full HP because I can’t cancel it.

Dave.6819:

i “luv” one thing about PvP forums. there are so many people with good ideas and people who are so tired of this state of pvp and wanna change things and how elite specs are pushed and how meta is alot better then any other build and how build diversity is at its worst and how power classes like chrono/daredevil are left behind and etc etc .. and yet.. no dev is replying or actively engaging people in pvp threads. even the message like " guys calm down. we are working on this and that and that.. soon it will be patched " would help those hopeful pvpers alot. yet nope. no responses. other day i totally scanned throughout the dev tracker. from that i can tell one very obvious thing – they don’t really care or know how to fix things so it ends up in a complete silence. mostly they reply to PvE stuff. like lore stories/names/legendary items or sometimes just making jokes. i encourage you to go read the whole dev tracker yourselves. maybe then you’ll realise theres no reason to post something like this in forums. nor there’s a good reason to expect good things in a near future. just play the game as it is or just.. don’t. sad tho. this game had soooo much potential.

There’s always wvw, at least THAT is getting improvements. Plus it’s easier to balance than pvp. The stability, for instance, is one fix. Builds don’t determine the outcome of the game, it’s coverage + tactics.

Conquest PvP will always benefit the class who can cover a point and fight people off of it, it really is that simple. Stronghold needs work also.

You are actually missing the point.

The problem isn’t elite spec on their own, it’s the new mecanics HoT bring us (and elite spec synergize so well with them).

Perma protection uptime on multiple classes and tempest that bring over 50% prot uptime to full party, 50% damage reduction buff (over 50% uptime on mesmer for example), multiple 10% damage reduction passives or buff (tempest with 40% prot, 10% frost aura, 10% earth passive). All this stuff paired with new healing system HoT bring us, where party healer are actually a thing, created undestructible comp in teamfights.

In order to break this, anet dev choose not to nerf but buff (witch is something i usually like, but not here). Every damage spec in this game got buff, and especially high mobility one (thief) that was suffering from this tank meta.

The problem of all of this is : once you reach the limit where high mobility damage spec are worth taking in teamfight scenarios, they are absolutely OP outside of teamfight scenarios.

So we are in a binary game, you play the teamfight or not, with no in between. As long as all those damage reduction and damage in general will be so high, it will be impossible for anet to balance things cause one playstyle will ALWAYS dominates the other. You need this middle ground to exist in order to allow diversity.

BTW, don’t tell me last EU pro league every class got play so it’s diversity.
First, every class doesn’t mean playstyle diversity, and that’s what this game need. Second, it will not be the case in a close future. Necromancer can’t have a place in rotation meta, same for ele cause the support he bring will not be usefull in a no teamfight meta and ranger will be the go to bunker cause he survives so well vs condi mes and has stone signet to mitigate thief rotation.
So you have only one spot to play with, and sooner or later team will find their best option for it.

That’s why we need team playstyle diversity and balance, not only class diversity and balance, and for this, you need a middle ground to exist in order to counter both playstyle with the others.

PS: btw a nerf on damage could be paired with a buff on poison (33% healing reduction to 66%). Pretty much every class have access to it (if not >> sigil). Less damage and damage reduction overall so you allow a middle ground to exist between teamfight and rotation + a way to deal with heavy healing spec without moa.

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balace then keeping all tritlines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Swagger.1459:

Aza.2105:

Guild wars 2 will never be balanced. The foundation it was built upon isn’t balanced so anything built on top of it won’t be either. GW2 is destined to always have very extreme shifts aka something is either really good or something is either really bad. No in middle ground.

That’s all about to change soon I think

What do you know that I don’t? :o

Also, next expansion, everyone jump on the next elite generation of elite specialisations, because it will probably be SUPER DUPER OP mode too.

#LegitMarketing

Your suggested Druid nerfs are horrible. Do not target the healing, it is needed elsewhere in the game(raids…) but instead target the pets and the general utility of the class. Smokescale and Bristleback are both very overtuned.

Swagger.1459:

Now, here’s how to really balance things…

Improve core professions

Reduce cool downs on all core slot skills.

Because elite builds can’t use core skills?

Yannir.4132:

Your suggested Druid nerfs are horrible. Do not target the healing, it is needed elsewhere in the game(raids…) but instead target the pets and the general utility of the class. Smokescale and Bristleback are both very overtuned.

Be honest, would you run something other than druid if you knew the trait line provided a ton more healing than the core spec? I know I wouldn’t, there just isn’t another trait line that provides that same amount of utility.

If you wouldn’t target healing, what else does druid have (that would be nerfed) to make a core spec viable again?

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

JTGuevara.9018:

Dave.6819:

i “luv” one thing about PvP forums. there are so many people with good ideas and people who are so tired of this state of pvp and wanna change things and how elite specs are pushed and how meta is alot better then any other build and how build diversity is at its worst and how power classes like chrono/daredevil are left behind and etc etc .. and yet.. no dev is replying or actively engaging people in pvp threads. even the message like " guys calm down. we are working on this and that and that.. soon it will be patched " would help those hopeful pvpers alot. yet nope. no responses. other day i totally scanned throughout the dev tracker. from that i can tell one very obvious thing – they don’t really care or know how to fix things so it ends up in a complete silence. mostly they reply to PvE stuff. like lore stories/names/legendary items or sometimes just making jokes. i encourage you to go read the whole dev tracker yourselves. maybe then you’ll realise theres no reason to post something like this in forums. nor there’s a good reason to expect good things in a near future. just play the game as it is or just.. don’t. sad tho. this game had soooo much potential.

There’s always wvw, at least THAT is getting improvements. Plus it’s easier to balance than pvp. The stability, for instance, is one fix. Builds don’t determine the outcome of the game, it’s coverage + tactics.

Conquest PvP will always benefit the class who can cover a point and fight people off of it, it really is that simple. Stronghold needs work also.

are you sure? i mean.. roll berserker/marauder daredevil. or good old and very fun berserker mesmer/chronomancer. those builds barely have a chance in a 1v1 against let’s say.. scrapper. or condi spammers. or tempest. or druid. or rev. or.. basically any meta build. that’s what i mean by build diversity. its non existant. in wvw its basically the same as in pvp. roll condi chrono – u r OP. roll glass chrono / glass thief – u r weak. :/ idk i kinda gave up on this game already. tho im checkin forums. and yesterday i was really curious to just go through dev tracker. it seemed very obvious. they r really very ignorant in PvP forums and the things that concern core vs. elite / build diversity / balance. sad panda is goin to wildstar xD that game is awsum actually.

PS. i mean there u go.. a very simple example to what kind of things devs are engaging in. quite hilarious eh? when there r tons of real and massive problems to engage in. —->>>>>> https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Oxymorons-and-Contradictions/first#post6143118

HOT pve maps are pretty much tailored so espically the bosses that u need to be able to stack pulsing cc, Tons of AOE hills, invulnerabilities, blocks, need tons of stability and boons to survive. If everybody went there with core builds. The DPS would be so abymassly low that we would see more failures in big meta events.

I think that at this point in time. We have to accept that expansions are to be treated like an expansion like in other mmo’s. U will pretty much need it to stay relevant.

The elite specs bieng equal to core specs is not going to happen. Pve is centered around hot, Bosses got an overhaul, breakbars and kitten. Same for wvw, alpine borderlands have new hot mechanics. oddly enough enough in wvw core specs still seem to work decently in zegrs.

I think that we need to accept that elites are simply one of the selling point of expansions. Something not uncommon to an mmo rpg., The promise of keeping them equal to core specs was indeed a lie. But oh well. Rather deal with it. If build diversity is centered around elite specs. Then so be it. We all know what happend with the recent moa nerf. Core mesmer got nerfed. Chronomancer barely feels it’s effects.

Topher.5631:

Dragonhunter:

-Reduce the amount of time spear of justice is tethered to an enemy, but increase the burn damage

-Reduce the amount of time shield of courage is active

-Longbow is fine

-Reduce damage on Test of Faith

You did absolutely nothing for Guardian other than nerfed them… we’re already borderline useless in progames. Can’t take this thread seriously now…

Just give players who don’t want to buy the expansion(s) a legacy server to play on with each other. They get their “fair” matches and we don’t need to have all of these nerfs because they refuse to upgrade.

Saiyan.1704:

Topher.5631:

Dragonhunter:

-Reduce the amount of time spear of justice is tethered to an enemy, but increase the burn damage

-Reduce the amount of time shield of courage is active

-Longbow is fine

-Reduce damage on Test of Faith

You did absolutely nothing for Guardian other than nerfed them… we’re already borderline useless in progames. Can’t take this thread seriously now…

Most of the things I listed were nerfs, which is necessary unless you want to buff everything else. Of course, that would lead to more power creep.

Several of my friends are Dragonhunter / guardian mains and they say that they take the elite spec just because the virtues are that much better. As long as they dramatically outshine the base virtues, then the dragonhunter line will still be considered mandatory.

The other issue is the ridiculous force traiting just to use a weapon. Why should I have to chronomancer just to use shield? Why should I have to dragon hunter just to use their kills and their long bow. None of the other utilities in the core classes are tied to a trait-line tying the new content to a trait line kills the core classes. A few people would probably rather play illusion or dueling with shield than chronomancer.

(This statement is in regards to people who purchased the expansion and want to play core specs.)

Just make the core professions trait line an “elite” , make some twiks if needed(for some professions its not even needed), done.

Topher.5631:

Saiyan.1704:

Topher.5631:

Dragonhunter:

-Reduce the amount of time spear of justice is tethered to an enemy, but increase the burn damage

-Reduce the amount of time shield of courage is active

-Longbow is fine

-Reduce damage on Test of Faith

You did absolutely nothing for Guardian other than nerfed them… we’re already borderline useless in progames. Can’t take this thread seriously now…

Most of the things I listed were nerfs, which is necessary unless you want to buff everything else. Of course, that would lead to more power creep.

Several of my friends are Dragonhunter / guardian mains and they say that they take the elite spec just because the virtues are that much better. As long as they dramatically outshine the base virtues, then the dragonhunter line will still be considered mandatory.

That’s true but it also points out how absolutely useless core guardian F3 is. An active block every 60 s (used to be 75?) or passive every 40s is really lackluster for a class mechanic, even before the HoT power-creep. The DH virtues seem OP by comparison only because of how bad the core virtues are.

Though, if you took the suggestion above (@LughLongArm) you would entirely solve any issues because then you would have to pick between the heal/leap and channeled block from DH virtues or the condi clear and stability from the traited core virtues.

Well i could be wrong on this one since Anet was never clear about this but i was under the impression that the long term goal for elite specs (they stated we will get more), would be like secondary classes were in gw1. And if we look back to gw1 almost all “meta” builds used a secondary class to be viable.

So what makes us think that Anet even wants the core specs balanced to elite specs? And not only the elite spec when we get more?

And honestly i would already happy if the professions compared to each other were balanced and we didnt have useless weapon sets.

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Wolfric.9380:

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Is there any reason not to? Most people miss playing the core classes.

Wolfric.9380:

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

As long as base classes aren’t on the same level as elite, then build diversity is completely thrown out of the window, and making one trait line mandatory is only giving the player 2 other trait lines to use (as opposed to 3).

In addition, if the core specs aren’t on the same level as elite, then why would those without the xpac stick around? That is completely unhealthy for the life of pvp, and putting them on the same level would go a long way towards making it more enjoyable for new players.

Don’t forget that new elite specializations will be introduced in the future. In theory, they should be just as powerful as the current ones are now. On paper, build diversity should increase as more of those are introduced.

Also, when the next xpac releases (someday over the rainbow), all HoT content will became base-game content. Meaning people will get it for free.

Yannir.4132:

Your suggested Druid nerfs are horrible. Do not target the healing, it is needed elsewhere in the game(raids…) but instead target the pets and the general utility of the class. Smokescale and Bristleback are both very overtuned.

No, they aren’t, they just have skill sets that let them actually do the job they were designed to do. Both of them have stats that are mediocre at best (the smokescale’s stats are literally identical to bears, for god’s sake, a pet class that’s a walking punchline game-wide!).

@OP

You seriously wanna nerf Healing from staff druid?

Do you even play the class?

4/5 Staff skills are healing. Let’s just delete staff then.

Zelulose.8695:

The other issue is the ridiculous force traiting just to use a weapon. Why should I have to chronomancer just to use shield? Why should I have to dragon hunter just to use their kills and their long bow. None of the other utilities in the core classes are tied to a trait-line tying the new content to a trait line kills the core classes. A few people would probably rather play illusion or dueling with shield than chronomancer.

(This statement is in regards to people who purchased the expansion and want to play core specs.)

Future proofing

StickerHappy.8052:

@OP

You seriously wanna nerf Healing from staff druid?

Do you even play the class?

4/5 Staff skills are healing. Let’s just delete staff then.

Just the auto and astral wisp. Auto spam isn’t meant to be rewarding, and astral wisp pulse heal is still quite strong. And yes, I have played the class.

Wolfric.9380:

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Your stance on this is hand-wavy and inaccurate. Part of me thinks you don’t want the elite specs to be nerfed because you enjoy playing the big bruiser in video games, in which case I suggest you go play Skyrim or something. There is no valid justification for elite specs that are stronger than core

Alex Shatter.7956:

Wolfric.9380:

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Your stance on this is hand-wavy and inaccurate. Part of me thinks you don’t want the elite specs to be nerfed because you enjoy playing the big bruiser in video games, in which case I suggest you go play Skyrim or something. There is no valid justification for elite specs that are stronger than core

It should be. Elite classes were not supposed to be an upgrade from core classes.

Well i am a player that loves diversity. But if following elite are on the same level as current + alle core traitlines make valid additions to bring a lot of diffrent builds, then it would be enough and i can understand from Anet that its easier to balace + a seeling point for expansions. It would be already huge if all current elite + the next ones are on the same level and all core traitlines make valid build options.

To play devil’s advocate

They should at the very least get all elite specs up to par before they worry too much about creating viable core builds or variant elites. Dragonhunters are still a little underpar (though this is partly due to meta circumstances) and Daredevils and Berserkers are still quite a ways underpar.

I can understand the optimism and wanting to get more specs in play for the core classes but I think there is merit in getting a uniform level of participation and balance from all elite specs before going back down into trying to bring up core specs.

Razor.9872:

Don’t forget that new elite specializations will be introduced in the future. In theory, they should be just as powerful as the current ones are now. On paper, build diversity should increase as more of those are introduced.

And how long will that take? They said they’re working on the next expansion, but how long till that comes out? 1 year? 1 year a half? Meanwhile we’re stuck with this crappy balance and a few meta builds while the rest is nearly trash level when you compare to the meta builds.

StickerHappy.8052:

Alex Shatter.7956:

Wolfric.9380:

Topher.5631:

Wolfric.9380:

I already disagree on the first sentence. Yes there is much work to do to bring back diversity. But if the route is elite + 2 core being more powerful then it´s acceptable and also easier to balance then keeping all trait lines an combinations at the same level. Not to mention the selling point of expansions. What would be very bad if power creep continues. The game needs to settle at a level for elite or we can never reach diversity and balance all 9 classes or at least come close to this.

Not trying to sound rude, but how is one build per class acceptable? There are the elite trait lines, which you need to be viable, and then there are trait lines that you need in the class, otherwise you won’t work at all.

For example, I play thief. The mandatory lines are Trickery, Deadly arts, and Daredevil. In most cases (unless you have a really odd build), you need these to play properly. So that locks me into those three trait lines. It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

I agree that diversity is on the floor. But this does not mean that base classes must be on the same level as elite.

Your stance on this is hand-wavy and inaccurate. Part of me thinks you don’t want the elite specs to be nerfed because you enjoy playing the big bruiser in video games, in which case I suggest you go play Skyrim or something. There is no valid justification for elite specs that are stronger than core

It should be. Elite classes were not supposed to be an upgrade from core classes.

Yeah, that one really bothers me aswell. Before elite specialisations were released ArenaNet stated that they would not be an upgrade to core classes, but just a new way to play without actually being top dog.

They have clearly gone back on their word. Reason? Poor HoT sales compared to core game sales.

Topher.5631:

Also staff auto does the same amount of damage with a heal, and can’t be reflected back at the user like other ranged options ranger has. That is too much utility for an auto.

Staff does the same amount of damage as what? It doesn’t do the same amount of damage as anything. It can’t be reflected back, just like spatial surge can’t be reflected back. It doesn’t have too much utility, it’s arguably the one of the most fair autoattacks introduced with the elite specs. You can’t even cast it freely without a target.

Topher.5631:

It is like not taking alchemy for scrapper, or beastmastery for druid. That isn’t really build diversity when you are locked in to most of your choices already.

Neither as a ranger nor as a druid are you locked into Beastmastery. The syngergy between BM and NM is great for certain builds, but not mandatory to use the class.

You’ve probably played the class, but it’s quite obvious you haven’t done much else besides running the “meta” builds.

Yannir.4132:

Your suggested Druid nerfs are horrible. Do not target the healing, it is needed elsewhere in the game(raids…) but instead target the pets and the general utility of the class. Smokescale and Bristleback are both very overtuned.

If anything, core pets are undertuned. The smoke scale has the stats of a bear, but unlike other melee pets it has an attack range that makes a world’s difference when running after a target (190 range compared to the wolf’s 130 – the very reason you’ve been ignoring anything that isn’t the knockdown leap for 3,5 years), aswell as a very potent smoke assualt.