Guild Wars 2

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

How so? Thieves mobility is one of the main reasons they’re picked over so many other zerker builds. It’s why thief and mesmer are the best zerker roamers and slower classes like ranger can’t compete.

yeah except you forget the fact that other classes can fill other roles while thieves/mesmers have only one and are already replaced in many cases by just another celery….
let’s make sure that class that can fill only one role can’t even do that…. great balancing decision
/slowclap

Thief is the most important SPVP class and has been since release. Thief is extremely strong and one of, if not the best team fight classes in the game.

Shiyo.3578:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

How so? Thieves mobility is one of the main reasons they’re picked over so many other zerker builds. It’s why thief and mesmer are the best zerker roamers and slower classes like ranger can’t compete.

yeah except you forget the fact that other classes can fill other roles while thieves/mesmers have only one and are already replaced in many cases by just another celery….
let’s make sure that class that can fill only one role can’t even do that…. great balancing decision
/slowclap

Thief is the most important SPVP class and has been since release. Thief is extremely strong and one of, if not the best team fight classes in the game.

Strong? Hardly… thief gets outclassed literary in every cathegory but vertical moblity.

Team fight classes? Really? They are good at +1 thanks to their moblity (which will be taken away by the looks of it) but they are one of the worst classes for team fights, i don’t even understand where you got the idea that thieves are good at team fights considering their squishiness, lack of team support etc.

I honestly would argue if thief is even that important in current meta, we have seen plenty of teams that won matches in tourney that didn’t even have thief on team….

Really only thing that keeps thieves and mesmers in pvp is their mobility, take it away and there is really 0 point to have one on team.

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

If you think thief is bad in team fights you need to reanalyze how you’re playing.

Cynz.9437:

I honestly would argue if thief is even that important in current meta, we have seen plenty of teams that won matches in tourney that didn’t even have thief on team….

And still, thieves are still found on almost every top team.

There is no point in arguing why that is the case, and there is no point in arguing what will be once HoT goes live.

The specializations are going to have a huge impact on the meta. Without having more information we can’t really argue what will happen.

The only thing we can actually discuss at this point how we feel about vertical mobility. Is it currently in a good place? What improvements would like to see OR is it better to take out most of it?
How does vertical mobility impact every map? Which positions are good as they are, which should get changed / added / removed?

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

Ele, engineer, necro, ranger, mesmer are all shut down or hugely pressured in group fights by thieves. Ranger isn’t viable because Thief exists.

Shiyo.3578:

Ele, engineer, necro, ranger, mesmer are all shut down or hugely pressured in group fights by thieves. Ranger isn’t viable because Thief exists.

- since when is ele shut down by thieves? this is not 2013….
- engi actually counters thieves in a way, good engi will never die to thief unless outnumbered (but do you really want to imply that engis should win every outnumbered fight?)
- necro with nightmare runes shouldn’t have issues vs thief, really… but then again necro being easy target to train has something to do with necro mechanics and not thief…
- condi rangers take a huge dump on thieves… rangers are viable, they are just not as broken as celestial classes
- as i said before, mes vs thief is almost 50/50 situation….

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Ele, engineer, necro, ranger, mesmer are all shut down or hugely pressured in group fights by thieves. Ranger isn’t viable because Thief exists.

- since when is ele shut down by thieves? this is not 2013….
- engi actually counters thieves in a way, good engi will never die to thief unless outnumbered (but do you really want to imply that engis should win every outnumbered fight?)
- necro with nightmare runes shouldn’t have issues vs thief, really… but then again necro being easy target to train has something to do with necro mechanics and not thief…
- condi rangers take a huge dump on thieves… rangers are viable, they are just not as broken as celestial classes
- as i said before, mes vs thief is almost 50/50 situation….

Condi ranger is the most useless group pvp class in the entire game. You’re just extremely biased or not playing thief properly, sorry.

Shiyo.3578:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Ele, engineer, necro, ranger, mesmer are all shut down or hugely pressured in group fights by thieves. Ranger isn’t viable because Thief exists.

- since when is ele shut down by thieves? this is not 2013….
- engi actually counters thieves in a way, good engi will never die to thief unless outnumbered (but do you really want to imply that engis should win every outnumbered fight?)
- necro with nightmare runes shouldn’t have issues vs thief, really… but then again necro being easy target to train has something to do with necro mechanics and not thief…
- condi rangers take a huge dump on thieves… rangers are viable, they are just not as broken as celestial classes
- as i said before, mes vs thief is almost 50/50 situation….

Condi ranger is the most useless group pvp class in the entire game. You’re just extremely biased or not playing thief properly, sorry.

not really, pretty sure there are other builds that are more useless (traps thief for example)

condi rangers are pretty good point holders

i like how this becomes personal~

Is this like when they did the initiative change and everyone qqed about thief being ruined then the patch hit and thief was even more op that ever?

Thief needs to have much more counter play to it. It either perma evades or spikes out of nowhere for millions. Cant kite it, cant focus it, cant los it.

Is this happens it will help the game. I doubt it though, anet have kept thief as tier 1 for 3 yrs. No reason to suspect they will change it and if they did the qq would be so large thief wud be op quickly again soon. Nobody cares about necro sucking for most of thd game because all the necros eitber quit or rerolled. Thieves are a strong lobby group cos they been so op for so long. And most thieves wont like having their performance bought into line with their skill if they ever made it a balanced class

Lordrosicky.5813:

Is this like when they did the initiative change and everyone qqed about thief being ruined then the patch hit and thief was even more op that ever?

Thief needs to have much more counter play to it. It either perma evades or spikes out of nowhere for millions. Cant kite it, cant focus it, cant los it.

Is this happens it will help the game. I doubt it though, anet have kept thief as tier 1 for 3 yrs. No reason to suspect they will change it and if they did the qq would be so large thief wud be op quickly again soon. Nobody cares about necro sucking for most of thd game because all the necros eitber quit or rerolled. Thieves are a strong lobby group cos they been so op for so long. And most thieves wont like having their performance bought into line with their skill if they ever made it a balanced class

Millions? Maybe you should consider using something other than berserker amulet. Thief is designed to shred berserkers. And berserker engineers and mesmer prove difficult if they are controlled by good players.

Kinda wish thieves were able to steal a better skill from engineers. This goo makes no darn sense whatsoever …

Ravenmoon.5318:

And what if I’m trying to shadow step to a ranger on a higher ground in say legacy of foefire, that’s just sniping the s**** out of people? Would it be like the FoH keep camp spot? If so that would be quite lame. Having to go through all that distance just to catch a power camper …

Idk if that is bad news for thieves because I don’t generally play with those in mind with very few exceptions, I can’t be bothered to memorize all those glitchy spots but, having target and being unable to teleport to it has always felt unnatural to me. Even steal doesn’t get me on top of FoH keep spot. Maybe the maps are intended to be this way, to reward camp spots and whatnot.

So I’m just curious if it blocks shadow steps on a target as well.

Welcome to every other build. It was unusual for teleports to behave that way. The things you describe as “crudy” for having to take the long way to reach snipe spots are what normal people have to deal with. That’s part of how the map works.

It should be obvious standing in a certain spot and teleporting to another very specific spot on a ledge was not intended.

ronpierce.2760:

Ravenmoon.5318:

And what if I’m trying to shadow step to a ranger on a higher ground in say legacy of foefire, that’s just sniping the s**** out of people? Would it be like the FoH keep camp spot? If so that would be quite lame. Having to go through all that distance just to catch a power camper …

Idk if that is bad news for thieves because I don’t generally play with those in mind with very few exceptions, I can’t be bothered to memorize all those glitchy spots but, having target and being unable to teleport to it has always felt unnatural to me. Even steal doesn’t get me on top of FoH keep spot. Maybe the maps are intended to be this way, to reward camp spots and whatnot.

So I’m just curious if it blocks shadow steps on a target as well.

Welcome to every other build. It was unusual for teleports to behave that way. The things you describe as “crudy” for having to take the long way to reach snipe spots are what normal people have to deal with. That’s part of how the map works.

It should be obvious standing in a certain spot and teleporting to another very specific spot on a ledge was not intended.

Is it weird to you when a thief shadowsteps to you on a flat surface? If the answer is no then it shouldn’t be weird to be reached on a campy spot.

This whole discussion reminds of Call of Duty and the lengths they had to go through to prevent everyone from going camper … pretty stupid. At least you have to go down now and get their dogtag. Which leaves you vulnerable to attack which you do not see from a mile away.

ronpierce.2760:

Ravenmoon.5318:

And what if I’m trying to shadow step to a ranger on a higher ground in say legacy of foefire, that’s just sniping the s**** out of people? Would it be like the FoH keep camp spot? If so that would be quite lame. Having to go through all that distance just to catch a power camper …

Idk if that is bad news for thieves because I don’t generally play with those in mind with very few exceptions, I can’t be bothered to memorize all those glitchy spots but, having target and being unable to teleport to it has always felt unnatural to me. Even steal doesn’t get me on top of FoH keep spot. Maybe the maps are intended to be this way, to reward camp spots and whatnot.

So I’m just curious if it blocks shadow steps on a target as well.

Welcome to every other build. It was unusual for teleports to behave that way. The things you describe as “crudy” for having to take the long way to reach snipe spots are what normal people have to deal with. That’s part of how the map works.

It should be obvious standing in a certain spot and teleporting to another very specific spot on a ledge was not intended.

yeah except every other build is either drooly celestial that doesn’t need mobility for survival or has huge range and doesn’t need something to stick on target

This hate for thief and Mesmer simply comes down to people’s dislike for stealth. You could nerf these classes into the ground and people will always cry OP.

Totally not agree with this change. While some shadowstepping spots are a bit extreme, if pvp is like 95% of pve shadowstepping rules (wich basically is, if the upwards location – has a normal run distance (on foot, no shadow steps) of over 1200 range (aprox, and not exactly same everywhere), then the shadow step to the top fails.

In pvp this is mostly the same apart from some extreme spots. The most extreme ones, i guess could be nerfed (2500 walk range, skipping ones). Any other spots and this nerf will obliviate thief gameplay. Completely. Forest of Nilfhell was a map i liked a lot, cause mobility and taking a leap of faith with them there, was fun and risky. If they nerf 90% teleports like op suggest (+ existing bugs that fail teleports so often), then thief is useless in future. Only thing that will still work is S/D evade spam, but nothing to be happy about. Thiefs damage pressure (wich should be superior high) will be superior low, thiefs escape chances will be very low, unless you play runaway coward (but that is against pvp conquest modes nature, to pressure points as much as possible to get points, not stand in corner, cloacked).

Warrior and thief auto attack each other. They don’t use Any skill except auto attack. Warrior always wins, period. Add on that stuns, invulnerabilities, fast leaps, good boons, tons of hp/armor, and they are a way more usefull profession. Sure thief can try to compensate with backstab, but how much of those land.? only D/p build has a chance to land one of them, and they eventually run out of initiative if the enemy can avoid your early schemes.

Just no to this update, except the extreme ones (shadow step to top of Keep in Forest of Nilfhil is a bit extreme, I never even tried it, cause it feels unnatural (wouldnt work in pve most of times, because of the range limit i explained above).

Implement a similar range limit like in pve/wvw and pvp will still be good. Remove all of them even the short ones, and shadow step looses all its values it had, that gave it a slight angle to other leaps/profession mechanics.

People who don’t understand this, definetely played thief to few.

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

shut down many class? like what?
-Like fresh air ele, zerker staff, any non cantrip build, any build with no enough sustain…EVERYTHING that it’s not d/d tanky spec

The reason why eles run celestial is because they don#t have a choice;could they run same faceroll crap like d/p or s/d thieves, they certainly would

Even if eles had a choice, they would still run cele because it’s stupidly strong… There are so many different builds that people would run if cele ele and cele engi weren’t a thing.

You assume things where I state facts, a fresh air ele and d/d cover two different roles
A fresh air ele go and change a 1vs1 into a 2v1 in his favours, a zerker ele doesn’t go on a point alone trying to fight a bunker spec like d/d.

Now, it is a stated fact that thieves negate that role to the eles, while you simply assume that no ele would run fresh air, in case thieves would get adjusted

does this also affect the medi guards teleports?

Shiyo.3578:

Ele, engineer, necro, ranger, mesmer are all shut down or hugely pressured in group fights by thieves. Ranger isn’t viable because Thief exists.

Are you talking about a different game? Pretty much everything you have said about thief is wrong. Out of those classes, glass Mesmer is the only one that a thief can really pressure hard.

The typical ele and engi you see these days wipes the floor against zerker thief; zerker ranger used to be thief food but they got buffed (a lot) so its pretty even now.

Thief are not good in a group fight- they are good at +1ing a group fight. Why would a thief even be hanging around a group fight?

I dont really get this change… so shadowstep will barely work on anything but flat terrain and clean LoS, just like how blink and every other teleport in the game already works?

Sounds like a nightmare for thieves -_-

ok now pls catch pew pew rangers, and the rest sick ranged dps classes on kyhlo/temple roofs kkthx

Supreme.3164:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

shut down many class? like what?
-Like fresh air ele, zerker staff, any non cantrip build, any build with no enough sustain…EVERYTHING that it’s not d/d tanky spec

The reason why eles run celestial is because they don#t have a choice;could they run same faceroll crap like d/p or s/d thieves, they certainly would

I don’t know which game you are playing but thief is not countering many classes. In fact, most meta builds are really strong against thief. DD ele and cele engi should barely lose against a thief. Guardian, especially DPS murders it. Warrior is just a snorefest because you can barely damage him.

I get what you’re saying about thief not allowing other berserker classes to join the meta. I kind of agree, but not entirely. A ranger for example, is not thief food anymore. If you can shoot him back and he doesn’t have his 60s cooldown stunbreaker up, the thief should be dead.

One last point. Funny how you say d/p is faceroll but defend DD ele. I love both classes. I play thief, mesmer, engi and ele for over 2 years now. Those are the 4 classes I enjoy. But the hardest are definitely thief and mesmer because they can’t get stunned. If they do, they are most likely dead. Ele can facetank a lot of stuff.

I think eles and engis are slightly OP, but not like many people say. Just adjust the healing power ratios on their healing skills and nerf all of their skills slightly. Slightly means barely anything. Just enough to keep celestial in check but not hurt other builds.

Supreme.3164:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

shut down many class? like what?
-Like fresh air ele, zerker staff, any non cantrip build, any build with no enough sustain…EVERYTHING that it’s not d/d tanky spec

The reason why eles run celestial is because they don#t have a choice;could they run same faceroll crap like d/p or s/d thieves, they certainly would

Bullkitten. You are full of kitten mate. Fresh air ele can obliterate a thief if it sees it coming. If YOU fail to do so, then that’s YOUR issue. I can’t even count the times where a “fresh air” (whoever comes up with those names) 2-shot my thief, opening with a daze so I’m unable to shadowstep away and whatnot. Same for lichform necro. Do you see people moaning about it like you do? No. Instead, I disengage and stalk that ele, making sure I press Ctrl + T to have my teammates assist me whenever they can.

Sounds like a L2P issue to me, and its not limited to thief way of playing.

Newsflash, thief is meant to shred berserker amulet. What you hate is the stealth. No offense but you need to learn to play around that.

What’s next … berserker warriors too op because they can dps you for 6 seconds in god mode? Please …

The reason eles run D/D cele is because its the easiest build to play, period. Its pretty much good at everything. It has nothing to do with thief being on the map or not.

If you think I’m full of kitten, ask yourself … when there are no thieves on the enemy team, do you see elementalists and the rest of the classes you listed switching traits? No? Then there’s your answer.

If Ranger are people’s argument for fixing vertical range then can ANET just please make Ranger less braindead as a class then?

Cause really that’s whats anti-fun about Rangers, they just take absolutely no skill and kitten people off with AI and Long Bow. Let’s start by like making them easier to kill such as nerfing some of the evades on weapon sets if thats what it takes for people to understand that the vertical range teleport nerf needs to happen.

Vertical Range teleport is cancer anyways. Even the old quickness was more balanced.

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

focus thief in team fight, he will go down pretty fast

the class is just not ment for team fights…

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

focus thief in team fight, he will go down pretty fast

the class is just not ment for team fights…

*Conquest fights.

In any other mode the thief shines. WvW,TDM,SH,(forbidden duels) thief will do fine only conquest’s nature negatively affect thief in combat we are mainly here to travel in it.

Sagat.3285:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

focus thief in team fight, he will go down pretty fast

the class is just not ment for team fights…

*Conquest fights.

In any other mode the thief shines. WvW,TDM,SH,(forbidden duels) thief will do fine only conquest’s nature negatively affect thief in combat we are mainly here to travel in it.

Funny you say that. Everytime I get Courtyard i immediately switch from thief to hambow and i make thieves cry because of the hilarious amount of CC that spec has.

Not sure this has been said or not, but any changes to content already out will likely be released well before the expansion to get the player base time to adjust before the introduction of completely new content.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Sagat.3285:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

focus thief in team fight, he will go down pretty fast

the class is just not ment for team fights…

*Conquest fights.

In any other mode the thief shines. WvW,TDM,SH,(forbidden duels) thief will do fine only conquest’s nature negatively affect thief in combat we are mainly here to travel in it.

Funny you say that. Everytime I get Courtyard i immediately switch from thief to hambow and i make thieves cry because of the hilarious amount of CC that spec has.

If they stick to the conquest meta sure, SA shines there even venom share,a well positioned p/p build even troll rez build. It’s a mini version of WvW roaming and thief have obviously more diversity there than conquest, that’s why I’m looking forward to SH basically anything that doesn’t push too much for a specific set up even if there is bound to have an optional one.

vinceftw.5086:

Supreme.3164:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

shut down many class? like what?
-Like fresh air ele, zerker staff, any non cantrip build, any build with no enough sustain…EVERYTHING that it’s not d/d tanky spec

The reason why eles run celestial is because they don#t have a choice;could they run same faceroll crap like d/p or s/d thieves, they certainly would

I don’t know which game you are playing but thief is not countering many classes. In fact, most meta builds are really strong against thief. DD ele and cele engi should barely lose against a thief. Guardian, especially DPS murders it. Warrior is just a snorefest because you can barely damage him.

I get what you’re saying about thief not allowing other berserker classes to join the meta. I kind of agree, but not entirely. A ranger for example, is not thief food anymore. If you can shoot him back and he doesn’t have his 60s cooldown stunbreaker up, the thief should be dead.

One last point. Funny how you say d/p is faceroll but defend DD ele. I love both classes. I play thief, mesmer, engi and ele for over 2 years now. Those are the 4 classes I enjoy. But the hardest are definitely thief and mesmer because they can’t get stunned. If they do, they are most likely dead. Ele can facetank a lot of stuff.

I think eles and engis are slightly OP, but not like many people say. Just adjust the healing power ratios on their healing skills and nerf all of their skills slightly. Slightly means barely anything. Just enough to keep celestial in check but not hurt other builds.

You first say that thief does not hard counter any class, then you “kinda” of agree that thief hard counter majority of zerker build ..much consistency in your statements.

Regarding d/p build, yes it’s faceroll at 100%, your only risk is to die to teamfight aoe, well guess what? I die even faster if I joined teamfights on fresh air and I have like 1/10 of the escapes of a thief…A d/p can engage whenever he wants and leave whenever he wants, approach undetected and bring you down to 20% with 2 button, so spare me the “my class takes skill” goodnight story

But the most ridiculous thing of all is that a d/p thief can extend his stealth..while stealthed

And now the only ele build that thieves can’t walk all over…is deemed OP by thieves, well I’m not surprised at all….we definitely play the same game yeah

Ravenmoon.5318:

Supreme.3164:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

shut down many class? like what?
-Like fresh air ele, zerker staff, any non cantrip build, any build with no enough sustain…EVERYTHING that it’s not d/d tanky spec

The reason why eles run celestial is because they don#t have a choice;could they run same faceroll crap like d/p or s/d thieves, they certainly would

Bullkitten. You are full of kitten mate. Fresh air ele can obliterate a thief if it sees it coming. If YOU fail to do so, then that’s YOUR issue. I can’t even count the times where a “fresh air” (whoever comes up with those names) 2-shot my thief, opening with a daze so I’m unable to shadowstep away and whatnot. Same for lichform necro. Do you see people moaning about it like you do? No. Instead, I disengage and stalk that ele, making sure I press Ctrl + T to have my teammates assist me whenever they can.

Sounds like a L2P issue to me, and its not limited to thief way of playing.

Newsflash, thief is meant to shred berserker amulet. What you hate is the stealth. No offense but you need to learn to play around that.

What’s next … berserker warriors too op because they can dps you for 6 seconds in god mode? Please …

The reason eles run D/D cele is because its the easiest build to play, period. Its pretty much good at everything. It has nothing to do with thief being on the map or not.

If you think I’m full of kitten, ask yourself … when there are no thieves on the enemy team, do you see elementalists and the rest of the classes you listed switching traits? No? Then there’s your answer.

I play conquest…no duelling room.

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

You can only guess is there and hope you react fast enough, but even then…what’s the point?? he just stealth again and you can’t do kitten, because 3/4 of your skills require a target, you can only hoping to dodge a backstab…and even then what’s the point?..He just keeps jumping around stealthing and stealthing till he can land a backstab : no risk huge reward.

But who am I to speak? Maybe you should ask the top eles playing fresh air in WTS…wait there are none.
Then why don’t you teach us noobs how to play a fresh air ele during a team fight witha d/p thief stalking you? make a video and show us your superior skills.

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

focus thief in team fight, he will go down pretty fast

the class is just not ment for team fights…

Bad thieves die, good ones live forever. If you think thief is bad at team fights, just…I don’t even know what to say. It’s one of the best team fight classes in the entire game. A good thief carries team fights HARD.

BlackTruth.6813:

If Ranger are people’s argument for fixing vertical range then can ANET just please make Ranger less braindead as a class then?

Cause really that’s whats anti-fun about Rangers, they just take absolutely no skill and kitten people off with AI and Long Bow. Let’s start by like making them easier to kill such as nerfing some of the evades on weapon sets if thats what it takes for people to understand that the vertical range teleport nerf needs to happen.

Vertical Range teleport is cancer anyways. Even the old quickness was more balanced.

Go try one while solo Que up your “brain-dead glassbow” , the Euro’s version full glass.
See how successful you can be w/o an excellent team’s support.
Many people talking big, have some success in hotjoin and gives out those none-sense about full glass ranger an easy class to play in real pvp.

Shiyo.3578:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

focus thief in team fight, he will go down pretty fast

the class is just not ment for team fights…

Bad thieves die, good ones live forever. If you think thief is bad at team fights, just…I don’t even know what to say. It’s one of the best team fight classes in the entire game. A good thief carries team fights HARD.

Good thieves don’t stay in team fights, they decap points…

Good team fight class are ele or shoutbow for example, as they provide a lot of group support, have good survival and sustain to stay in that very fight… thief may jump in but they don’t have the tools to stay in fights. Stay alive forver? How? Very limited condi removal, no way to mitigate AoE besides evade spam; go in stealth? As far as i know stealth is actual disadvantage in many cases in conquest.

Best thief in the world won’t be able to win match if his team can’t defend points, simple as it is.

Strategy, communication, team play, map awarness etc. wins matches…. removing port points denies thieves/mesmers their role practically and strategical play.

You may argue all you want but from fighting perspective other classes do as much as thief/mesmer really, the only edge they have is their moblity, take it away and there is no point to run one…. really.

Certanly, those ports may be gimmicky, but the fact that those classes (mes/thief) heavily rely on those ports just says a lot in which bad state those classes are in current meta actually.

And once again, the actual bug that causes porting skills to fail on every map is still not fixed…. but as far as i see it Anet gives 0 kitten about it even though
they should be fixing that bug instead of worrying weither or not some thief can port on top of the roof to kill ranger that been sniping people across the map with that “ohhhhhh non-bugged” 2000 range rapid fire.

This is a bit pathetic. Let’s not use bugs to defend bugs. All of them need to be fixed. Then you can balance around a non bugged/exploitable game. That’d be my preference.

ronpierce.2760:

This is a bit pathetic. Let’s not use bugs to defend bugs. All of them need to be fixed. Then you can balance around a non bugged/exploitable game. That’d be my preference.

well my point is that they might “fix” port spots but won’t do crap about anything else…

Aomine.5012:

BlackTruth.6813:

If Ranger are people’s argument for fixing vertical range then can ANET just please make Ranger less braindead as a class then?

Cause really that’s whats anti-fun about Rangers, they just take absolutely no skill and kitten people off with AI and Long Bow. Let’s start by like making them easier to kill such as nerfing some of the evades on weapon sets if thats what it takes for people to understand that the vertical range teleport nerf needs to happen.

Vertical Range teleport is cancer anyways. Even the old quickness was more balanced.

Go try one while solo Que up your “brain-dead glassbow” , the Euro’s version full glass.
See how successful you can be w/o an excellent team’s support.
Many people talking big, have some success in hotjoin and gives out those none-sense about full glass ranger an easy class to play in real pvp.

And the reason you need team support to play as a full glass longbow build is because thieves/other mobile classes can jump directly to you and apply pressure. If this change goes through, nuking from 1200/1500 range with a full glass longbow build will be time consuming and and difficult to chase down and punish.

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

How so? Thieves mobility is one of the main reasons they’re picked over so many other zerker builds. It’s why thief and mesmer are the best zerker roamers and slower classes like ranger can’t compete.

yeah except you forget the fact that other classes can fill other roles while thieves/mesmers have only one and are already replaced in many cases by just another celery….
let’s make sure that class that can fill only one role can’t even do that…. great balancing decision
/slowclap

Thief is the most important SPVP class and has been since release. Thief is extremely strong and one of, if not the best team fight classes in the game.

Strong? Hardly… thief gets outclassed literary in every cathegory but vertical moblity.

Team fight classes? Really? They are good at +1 thanks to their moblity (which will be taken away by the looks of it) but they are one of the worst classes for team fights, i don’t even understand where you got the idea that thieves are good at team fights considering their squishiness, lack of team support etc.

I honestly would argue if thief is even that important in current meta, we have seen plenty of teams that won matches in tourney that didn’t even have thief on team….

Really only thing that keeps thieves and mesmers in pvp is their mobility, take it away and there is really 0 point to have one on team.

My granpa always said “death is the best debuff” and man, thief gare good at it XD that’s how they contribute in team fight: hugestes spike damage that, even if it doesnt resolve in a down state, applies huge pressure forcing to change focus/heal/stunbreak.
Ever seen top pvp matches? always a thief in group…

And the stealth haters rise again! :S (I just dont get it to be honest… If you see a warri or a ranger immune to phisical dmg or a guard/mes goes invuln, you just say: ‘he used a CD, its ok’, but when some1 stealths… ‘Cheater, OP, faceroll!’ Blablabla… Stealth is no different than any other offensive/defensive mechanic of the game. Ppl just go crazy about it, cuz they CANT SEE their opponent. So childish imho…) People who hate on mesmers and thieves have no idea what it feels like to stay alive and be useful on these classes in a competitive environment. The last reason to play those classes was ports. And pls dont tell me that other zerker classes have it even worse. They do, but the overall solution is not to throw down the last remaining viable zerker classes to the level of other unviable builds. Nerfing ports wont bring your other zerker specs/classes up to meta level. So we can expect a full tanky meta, thats all.

And those who play cele/soldier and die to a thief 1v1… I have bad news for you: L2P. If equally skilled I dont even engage 1v1. On evenly skilled teams thief has 2 roles: decapping, 1+ing and the list ends here. Peeps have no idea how pathetic they look when complaining about mes/thief. (But if this nerf goes through without compensation, dont worry! You’ll still have power rangers and their 20000008540000 unit range to cry about.) If you want to complain, complain about zerker ele, warri, necro. Thats where the problem is.

/rant

Supreme.3164:

Ravenmoon.5318:

Supreme.3164:

Cynz.9437:

Shiyo.3578:

Thief shuts down or hugely pressures so many classes in group fights, and is the main reason so many builds are completely unviable in pvp.

shuts down many classes? like what? mesmers? so what? medi guards shut down thieves more~ besides mesmer still has good chance to nuke thief

as far as build go, i am pretty sure conquest itself is an issue…

the reason why thieves run zerker is because they don#t have a choice; could they run same faceroll crap like dd eles, they certanly would

shut down many class? like what?
-Like fresh air ele, zerker staff, any non cantrip build, any build with no enough sustain…EVERYTHING that it’s not d/d tanky spec

The reason why eles run celestial is because they don#t have a choice;could they run same faceroll crap like d/p or s/d thieves, they certainly would

Bullkitten. You are full of kitten mate. Fresh air ele can obliterate a thief if it sees it coming. If YOU fail to do so, then that’s YOUR issue. I can’t even count the times where a “fresh air” (whoever comes up with those names) 2-shot my thief, opening with a daze so I’m unable to shadowstep away and whatnot. Same for lichform necro. Do you see people moaning about it like you do? No. Instead, I disengage and stalk that ele, making sure I press Ctrl + T to have my teammates assist me whenever they can.

Sounds like a L2P issue to me, and its not limited to thief way of playing.

Newsflash, thief is meant to shred berserker amulet. What you hate is the stealth. No offense but you need to learn to play around that.

What’s next … berserker warriors too op because they can dps you for 6 seconds in god mode? Please …

The reason eles run D/D cele is because its the easiest build to play, period. Its pretty much good at everything. It has nothing to do with thief being on the map or not.

If you think I’m full of kitten, ask yourself … when there are no thieves on the enemy team, do you see elementalists and the rest of the classes you listed switching traits? No? Then there’s your answer.

I play conquest…no duelling room.

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

You can only guess is there and hope you react fast enough, but even then…what’s the point?? he just stealth again and you can’t do kitten, because 3/4 of your skills require a target, you can only hoping to dodge a backstab…and even then what’s the point?..He just keeps jumping around stealthing and stealthing till he can land a backstab : no risk huge reward.

But who am I to speak? Maybe you should ask the top eles playing fresh air in WTS…wait there are none.
Then why don’t you teach us noobs how to play a fresh air ele during a team fight witha d/p thief stalking you? make a video and show us your superior skills.

It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that you have only seen a thief on a screenshot.
With that being said, yes, you can absolutely trait for “infinite” stealthiness BUT … and that is a huge but, your DPS turns to below average at best, your mobility is pretty lowered and most likely you are almost always running low on initiative. Now tell me, have you seen such thieves? Because I have reeeally hard time seeing such in conquest mode. If at all.

The only long term stealth a thief can get at the moment is shadow refuge, which is 15 sec, and the thief has to stay in a rather small circle for at least 2.5 seconds. The amount of thieves I’ve killed while they try to refuge on me is pretty high.

Sure there is the trick with D/P and smoke field leap combo but again, this really lowers your initiative and you leave yourself open to further attacks. Not to mention that if you fail to leap more than once, congratulations you just wasted kittenton of initiative for ~3 seconds of stealth, YAY!

If you stay within the smoke field, you can interrupt the thief, a noob thief will probably stab you and get Revealed. You can seriously kitten up a thief while revealed lasts. There is no trait to lower the revealed duration.

But ultimately its your choice. You choose berserker amulet. You DON’T GET TO wreck everyone. Infact, everyone is free to wreck you if you are bad at dodging. And thief is meant to obliterate you, especially the bursty build.

When this game launched I used to play ultra glass cannon warrior with hammer and GS and frenzy and bull’s charge and endure pain. Needless to say I was killing everyone. Guess what, people learned to counter that build. I advise you to do the same

Step #1) Make a thief
Step #2) Try to play all the metas
Step #3) Learn to counter it
?!?!?!
profit?

Shiyo.3578:

It’s weird how everyone thief experience in SPVP seems to be based on 1v1 and completely ignores the fact I said “team fights”.

I think maybe its just a misunderstanding. Thief is good in team fight in the sense that they can apply strong and unexpected burst on a priority target starting from outside melee range, but they have little sustain. That is why they are better at +1ing, because they can apply that strong pressure unexpectedly and quickly and then hopefully quickly disengage.

However, they are not good in a team fight in the sense of staying on/near a point that is covered in aoe and cleave, fighting against high health/high regen/lots of protection uptime etc type builds (pretty much the staple of this game), because they don’t have much range, cc cleanse, hard defences, or protection and have low health and armor.

Supreme.3164:

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

That’s where you pretty much lost all your credibility.

Nimrud.5642:

Supreme.3164:

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

That’s where you pretty much lost all your credibility.

Well, its actually not like they -can’t- do that. Most probably won’t, but they certainly can. If they feel it advantageous to stealth by a guy who’s helping mid, who’s also supposed to be watching far, sometimes going unnoticed can be a pretty big benefit, and if anyone can do it it’d be thieves.

ronpierce.2760:

Nimrud.5642:

Supreme.3164:

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

That’s where you pretty much lost all your credibility.

Well, its actually not like they -can’t- do that. Most probably won’t, but they certainly can. If they feel it advantageous to stealth by a guy who’s helping mid, who’s also supposed to be watching far, sometimes going unnoticed can be a pretty big benefit, and if anyone can do it it’d be thieves.

No1 runs SA on competitive lvl for obvious reasons. If a non-SA thief does what the guy says above, he’ll have to use 2 gapclosers/teleports and burn a lot of ini… It is only worth it if you can 1-shot the opponent or bring him so low he cant recover (other zerkers). If you do this to a tanky build/class you’ll be out of ini and half of your abilities will be on CD right at the opening move. Supreme is either trolling or has no idea/ is outplayed too often by thieves. No wonder thieves are used only for 1+ing. If a thief goes 1v1 it has to be an other zerker (medi guard excluded ofc).

Otherwise its a NONO. In the last few tournaments I saw toker many times running away whenever a 1v1 situation was about to emerge. I’m not saying he didnt even have a chance but it would have taken too long even if he wins, so he left instead. Thats how sad thieves are these days. And now they are taking our ports… Oh, no! The ports!

Nimrud.5642:

ronpierce.2760:

Nimrud.5642:

Supreme.3164:

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

That’s where you pretty much lost all your credibility.

Well, its actually not like they -can’t- do that. Most probably won’t, but they certainly can. If they feel it advantageous to stealth by a guy who’s helping mid, who’s also supposed to be watching far, sometimes going unnoticed can be a pretty big benefit, and if anyone can do it it’d be thieves.

No1 runs SA on competitive lvl for obvious reasons. If a non-SA thief does what the guy says above, he’ll have to use 2 gapclosers/teleports and burn a lot of ini… It is only worth it if you can 1-shot the opponent or bring him so low he cant recover (other zerkers). If you do this to a tanky build/class you’ll be out of ini and half of your abilities will be on CD right at the opening move. Supreme is either trolling or has no idea/ is outplayed too often by thieves. No wonder thieves are used only for 1+ing. If a thief goes 1v1 it has to be an other zerker (medi guard excluded ofc).

Otherwise its a NONO. In the last few tournaments I saw toker many times running away whenever a 1v1 situation was about to emerge. I’m not saying he didnt even have a chance but it would have taken too long even if he wins, so he left instead. Thats how sad thieves are these days. And now they are taking our ports… Oh, no! The ports!

High level comps don’t have people generally sitting on home doing nothing. Being able to get to the point unnoticed gives ample time to de-cap and MAYBE even cap it in time before they can get back to you. In that time you would have all of your init back up. Home watchers often support middle. This is one of the primary reasons high ranked players don’t like turret engineers, because they’re so anchored to a node.

ronpierce.2760:

Nimrud.5642:

ronpierce.2760:

Nimrud.5642:

Supreme.3164:

And no you can’t see a thief coming at all, because they stealth a mile away and maintain the stealth indefinitely

That’s where you pretty much lost all your credibility.

Well, its actually not like they -can’t- do that. Most probably won’t, but they certainly can. If they feel it advantageous to stealth by a guy who’s helping mid, who’s also supposed to be watching far, sometimes going unnoticed can be a pretty big benefit, and if anyone can do it it’d be thieves.

No1 runs SA on competitive lvl for obvious reasons. If a non-SA thief does what the guy says above, he’ll have to use 2 gapclosers/teleports and burn a lot of ini… It is only worth it if you can 1-shot the opponent or bring him so low he cant recover (other zerkers). If you do this to a tanky build/class you’ll be out of ini and half of your abilities will be on CD right at the opening move. Supreme is either trolling or has no idea/ is outplayed too often by thieves. No wonder thieves are used only for 1+ing. If a thief goes 1v1 it has to be an other zerker (medi guard excluded ofc).

Otherwise its a NONO. In the last few tournaments I saw toker many times running away whenever a 1v1 situation was about to emerge. I’m not saying he didnt even have a chance but it would have taken too long even if he wins, so he left instead. Thats how sad thieves are these days. And now they are taking our ports… Oh, no! The ports!

High level comps don’t have people generally sitting on home doing nothing. Being able to get to the point unnoticed gives ample time to de-cap and MAYBE even cap it in time before they can get back to you. In that time you would have all of your init back up. Home watchers often support middle. This is one of the primary reasons high ranked players don’t like turret engineers, because they’re so anchored to a node.

I get your point but the original discussion was about fighting in general not just a sneaky decap.

I’ve heard rumors of this for quite some time and assumed them to be true. Hopefully they compensate us with some buffs and much needed bug fixes for things that’ve been broken since 2 years~ ago, such as Last Refuge for example.