Guild Wars 2

Balance was possibly at its best just before the HoT release.

The most overpowered things had been adjusted to a reasonable level:
Shoutbow had its healing reduced such that it had to run a tankier amulet to have the same support as before.
Engi had its incendiary powder moved from explosions to firearms, which was a massive change for cele engi.
D/D ele had nerfs to the fire line, all it needed from here was a small nerf to the sustain.

Every class had a viable build:
Warrior had shoutbow
Guardian had the burn build, bunker guardian was also viable with a few buffs
Engi had cele rifle and even cele p/p
Thief had d/p – only thing needed here was an acrobatics rework to make s/d viable again
Ranger had the power survival spec with beastmaster
Mesmer had PU shatter
Elementalist had celestial d/d, d/f and staff
Necro had celestial signet

Then HoT came and the balance is just crazy in both season 1 and season 2 – there’s is also a significant increase in passive effects, which dumbs down combat.

Fixing this is easy, as the only things that need balancing are the new things that came with HoT – i.e. the elite specs, new utilities and new weapon skills. Everything else is just minor tweaks.
Here’s the thing – it doesn’t even matter if every elite spec gets overnerfed because every class had a viable core spec before HoT was released. Elite specs were advertised as not being a pure upgrade from core specs, but rather introducing an alternative way to play the class – can we please stick to this idea?

The balance isn’t that bad. Thief is weak-ish, but only DH and Warrior really have no place on a competitive team.

That leaves 7/9 classes that are perfectly viable. Most of which have multiple builds that can work. Rev can be glint vs demon, Reaper can be curses vs signet, Chrono can be inspiration vs dueling. Wanderers vs Mercenary vs Viper vs Paladin are also meaningful choices that people tend to overlook.

This thread is more about elite specs, but I have news for you. More people would have been rioting if they were meaningless sidegrades like you propose.

The new trait system is what destroyed balance and the reason I left the game.

Agreed, June patch of 2015 enabled the 3 trait line system. It also beefed up conditions by modifying stack sizes, damage modifiers and Might/Weakness coverage.

Then 3 months later HOT hit, and there has been little to no balancing since.

Dumbing down of the trait system was imho one of the worst things ANET did for build diversity,

Celeras.4980:

The balance isn’t that bad. Thief is weak-ish, but only DH and Warrior really have no place on a competitive team.

That leaves 7/9 classes that are perfectly viable. Most of which have multiple builds that can work. Rev can be glint vs demon, Reaper can be curses vs signet, Chrono can be inspiration vs dueling. Wanderers vs Mercenary vs Viper vs Paladin are also meaningful choices that people tend to overlook.

This thread is more about elite specs, but I have news for you. More people would have been rioting if they were meaningless sidegrades like you propose.

+1

Funny considering people have been complaining about balance issues since GW2 launched.

I can be wrong but my impression so far is that they had a fair idea where elite specs should be while doing the 23rd June update. The problem came when the especs were beta tested and everyone was just rioting about how almost all of them were underpowered. They then made all of them stronger without revising what they have done before which ended up as making them mandatory.
Take tempest as example : the first version was announced as close range support. People complained a lot that it was not playable in any area. Now Tempest has never been excluded from the meta in sPvP (was dealing more damage, today is a healer) and there is no PvE build that won’t take the line (melee DD, Range DD, Condi, healer… even tanky). The same goes with almost all of the elite.

Eventually there will be more diversity when a second elite will be available (in 2-3 years) or if they transform and buff a core line (like the former fifth) to an elite one (which won’t happen).

no, HoT didn’t destroy it, the balance was always this bad, your “balance” stage was only a brief time, from 23rd update to the day when HoT was release
there were no good old day except if you play war, it was even worst, there were only shoutbow war and d/d ele the rest was a joke build, before that ranger and necro were fighting for the bottom tier

Ranael.6423:

Eventually there will be more diversity when a second elite will be available (in 2-3 years) or if they transform and buff a core line (like the former fifth) to an elite one (which won’t happen).

What you asking is impossible.
If they buff the old traitlines to make old builds viable, people would simply include teh elite traitline AND the buffed traitline.
Every elite specs provides vital utility to every class.

On my D/P thief, I can’t imagine picking up shadow arts instead of daredevil.
I could consider dropping daredevil for acrobatics if it gets overhaul and makes S/D viable again but it’s not going to happen. The build is dead and burried like the pistol whip thief.

Xillllix.3485:

The new trait system is what destroyed balance and the reason I left the game.

This.

Before Cele was removed, i discussed it in threads before but i firmly believe the dumbing down and lack of trait diversity is what killed pvp. I’l leave this here :-

“I think another route cause to all this imbalance is they way they dumbed down all the pvp stats and trait lines.

There is simply no room for experimenting. Because there are only 3 traits per trait-line now, there is a much bigger chance of x being obvious pick over y, and z. rather than having 5(or was it 6) different options. Most classes are now tunnel visioned into 1-2 builds with little room to customise. This has massively contributed to how ‘meta’ forced this game is.

With less diversity in your playing style options, the less people are going to experiment and create their own builds/styles of play. Now, with Elite specs, that has turned your 6 optional trait specs into 5, because the Elites are pretty much a must. Again, just dumbs down everything and forces people to stay in certain meta builds due to lack of diversity in traits or stats. What’s the point in 6 trait specs when only MAXIMUM 2 builds are viable from those 6 specs on any class.

Secondly, as was stated above in this post, pvp stats are also dumbed down.
Before, when you could mix and match runes, there was greater flexibility of what stats you wanted. I feel amulets are far too simplistic….forcing everyone to play, pure bunker, pure dps (condi or power).

Not only is there no ‘trinity’ in this game….it’s worse, there is now only 2 viable options. Unfortunately, because of how amulets and runes are balanced, the trade offs between survivability, damage and skill are too greatly favoured towards survivability.
If there are only 2 builds to choose from, bunker or pure dps, and the aim of GW2 PvP is conquest…shock, you get a constant bunker meta.

Every day i wish i could theory craft random, exciting builds for my classes, like the old days. Mix and match runes, stats depending on what traits…. but you cannot. There is no trait diversity now, and all the trait lines are too forced towards certain traits, especially with the elite spec now being imperative instead of optional.
Basically, it’s too easy to find the optimal meta build for any class now because of the lack of any real stat/trait customisations."

Ravenmoon.5318:

What you asking is impossible.
If they buff the old traitlines to make old builds viable, people would simply include teh elite traitline AND the buffed traitline.
Every elite specs provides vital utility to every class.

On my D/P thief, I can’t imagine picking up shadow arts instead of daredevil.
I could consider dropping daredevil for acrobatics if it gets overhaul and makes S/D viable again but it’s not going to happen. The build is dead and burried like the pistol whip thief.

No I was talking about making buffed Trickery an elite spec with a better defined role (or not) so that your thief either becomes a daredevil or a trickster. One could be more bruiser oriented (DD) and the other one either support or condi oriented. What I find bad with elite specs right now is that it is not specialized since they can buff every aspect of your toon. The grandmaster coice od DD for example is specializing you either in direct damage, condi damage or defense. I just thought from the first description that the elite specs should buff one aspect (if you split archetypes between, melee DD, range, condi, tank, support and heal) not offer the choice of buffing all of them.

Liam McColgan.7689:

Xillllix.3485:

The new trait system is what destroyed balance and the reason I left the game.

This.

Before Cele was removed, i discussed it in threads before but i firmly believe the dumbing down and lack of trait diversity is what killed pvp. I’l leave this here :-

“I think another route cause to all this imbalance is they way they dumbed down all the pvp stats and trait lines.

There is simply no room for experimenting. Because there are only 3 traits per trait-line now, there is a much bigger chance of x being obvious pick over y, and z. rather than having 5(or was it 6) different options. Most classes are now tunnel visioned into 1-2 builds with little room to customise. This has massively contributed to how ‘meta’ forced this game is.

With less diversity in your playing style options, the less people are going to experiment and create their own builds/styles of play. Now, with Elite specs, that has turned your 6 optional trait specs into 5, because the Elites are pretty much a must. Again, just dumbs down everything and forces people to stay in certain meta builds due to lack of diversity in traits or stats. What’s the point in 6 trait specs when only MAXIMUM 2 builds are viable from those 6 specs on any class.

Secondly, as was stated above in this post, pvp stats are also dumbed down.
Before, when you could mix and match runes, there was greater flexibility of what stats you wanted. I feel amulets are far too simplistic….forcing everyone to play, pure bunker, pure dps (condi or power).

Not only is there no ‘trinity’ in this game….it’s worse, there is now only 2 viable options. Unfortunately, because of how amulets and runes are balanced, the trade offs between survivability, damage and skill are too greatly favoured towards survivability.
If there are only 2 builds to choose from, bunker or pure dps, and the aim of GW2 PvP is conquest…shock, you get a constant bunker meta.

Every day i wish i could theory craft random, exciting builds for my classes, like the old days. Mix and match runes, stats depending on what traits…. but you cannot. There is no trait diversity now, and all the trait lines are too forced towards certain traits, especially with the elite spec now being imperative instead of optional.
Basically, it’s too easy to find the optimal meta build for any class now because of the lack of any real stat/trait customisations."

+1 well said.

And also this forums have always been quite toxic, complaining about everything and calling the current time the worst of all. Really funny but this is how it goes with really every other game with PvP.

Xillllix.3485:

The new trait system is what destroyed balance and the reason I left the game.

This this this this.

I am only one that misses hambow meta?

It took 3 years for the game to reach that state of balance. HoT obviously changed a lot of stuff. But if it took 3 years for the game to reach that, well…is expected that we gonna have to wait a bit more.

I just redownloaded this game after a year or two break and was stoked for the ranger changes, the stealth trap build looked AMAZINGLY fun…. The new trait line deal, not bad probly a lil better than the old style.

I saw the HoT trait lines, thought they were just PvE, pff, whatever…. but they’re not… these full cleanse every 10s aoe fear/taunt/stability flash roll to enemy for guaranteed crit backstab whatever monsters are actually part of PvP??!?!?!

So much for getting my hopes up… I actually thought Anet was starting to get the hang of things… I guess I should have learned from the last few years…

Edit: I get it ‘7/9 classes are viable’, but who gives a kitten when the only specs are ones that best break the one expansion pack trait line/weapon.

I don’t really care about balance, It will always depend on player, but, I would like to stop seeing 2-3 condishatter mesmers, and 2-3 necros per game per side.

SlimChance.6593:

June patch of 2015

i’d pay for a server running pre patch client and balancing accordingly later on.