Guild Wars 2

Main weakness of this build…. crap out of point… he has no fighting capabiliy of point at all as he cannot force you to stay in his calltrops. Just let him nulify that point and shoot the kitten out of him outside of point. He has 12-13k hp pool and almost no healing if he does not hit someone.

@Stin: I suppose some of it was to me, so I am going to reply.
I am fully aware necro’s with the right builds and weapons have enough AoE to spam … but Gintoki was saying “wells”. And there is a big difference between weapon-skills and utility-skills imho.
And the “step out of it and let him cap”-point … is that really a nice solution? If it even was a bunker-build with low damage but it isn’t. It is pretty obvious that stepping out of the caltrops is one way to deal with it … just as leaving the guardian bunker alone is one way to deal with bunkers … it doesn’t really make it less cheesy though.

There are eays to deal with unicorn-builds, and I don’t have any problems with it other than it gain feels like a cheesy/gimmick thief-build. Thieves even refer to it as a gimmick-build.

That is very gimmicky tactic, and well maybe classes i play the most dont have this problem as much as others. My thief, full bunker guardian with staff, trap ranger, and condition necro just does not have this problem.
However this tactic ruins warriors badly, also mesmers get pretty kittened by it, as they cant land shatters and even if they do 3300 armor ussualy survives the burst no probem.

However that is only good non stealth based build, calltrops is our only viable way to force you of point. If we put all our utilitys to survive forcing you out of point, it is expected it would require a certain build to counter it.

Gw2 is like rock paper scisors Bunkers>Burst>conditions>bunkers>…

Since thief cannot build a reliable bunker our only way is to anti bunker your point.

Nerva, I disagree with you mate, and I think you should play some more sPvP instead of crying on the forums all day… because the option I have suggested might actually help your skill grow, and in retrospect, save me from reading such stupid posts such as this.

Berserker specs counter this build by destroying the thief before they can do anything (you have 12k HP as a condition thief… that’s like 2 backstabs or 100b combo, or dragon’s tooth combo ect.). Condition thieves have one single stunbreaker at long cooldown, which is also needed to continue stacking up bleeds. So if you just think a little bit before you rush in and make sure they won’t escape your burst (which is easy with a little bit of patience) you can win them with most glass cannon builds.

Most condition-specs destroy bleeder thiefs too, by better condition management (every other profession with viable condition spec has better condition management). Most importantly of all, bleeds are one single condition. Everybody in this whole game has a means of removing one condition lol.

And caltrops? It’s a skill that is SUPPOSED to make you stay outside. Like guardian’s sanctuary, except caltrops’ weaker. Complaining about caltrops stacking up bleeds on you is like complaining about getting knocked down by sanctuary every time you stand up (again) and run towards it just to get hit back to the ground. Because you wanna cap the point lol. And just to mention: three casts of death blossom will do comparable bleeding damage as standing inside caltrops for majority of the duration. Caltrops bleeds are short and weak, and you have to stay inside the caltrops in order to keep the stacks high for more than two or three seconds.

The only way condition thiefs win fights is by their opponents being stupid and rushing towards their own demise. Don’t stand in caltrops, when you see them death blossom towards you just use that dodge, nothing worse will be coming your way anyway. It’s really so incredibly simple: stay out of the red circle and dodge two times. All they will do to you once you follow these two primitive steps is stack 3 bleeds for 3,5k HP and one weak poison until their cooldowns/initiative is back up. And if you think of complaining about stealth, shadow refuge has quite a long cooldown and most thieves in tournaments wanna keep it for ressing teammates/saving themselves from a bad spot.

Your explanation of the build is exactly why it boggles my mind why thieves even run deathblossom condi build, when if you run a stealthy shortbow based condi build, you avoid nearly every single weakpoint the d/d build has. You can’t kite the shortbow, it has the best mobility in the game, the 3x bleed attack costs 2 less initiative, is ranged, can be used to mortar shots from LoS, has a poison field, 1 less ini cost cheaper evade that’s also a cripple and not to mention infiltrator arrow at use all times, for teleport or blind AND 1st shot from stealth is an immobilize that will nearly guarantee landing a cluster bomb or 2, not to mention how much immobilize that you can almost spam due to a stealthy build will wreck bunkers. Immobilized on top of the caltrops and a poison field anyone?

Trait into stealth removing condis per 3s (1 insta removed upon stealthing), stealth on steal so it works basicly as a stunbreaker/condi remover. Equip shortbow. Profit.

well apart from the fact that people are refering to single traits as if all thieves run all of them all the time, i mean that would be op.. have you ever been caught in caltrops in real life.. of course you would have bleedy feet and what to get out of them immediately! as a general idea most bleeds thieves in tourneys will use these utilies

1. caltrops.
2. shadow step or roll for initiative
3. shadows refuge or some other supportive skill

they will most likely be using carrion set and relying on cloak and dagger for the majority of stealths, the biggest problem i have is if glass cannon or burst builds in general fool me into dodging early, by looking like they are going for there major burst but are actually waiting to mind wrack me or some shizz when i finish dodging. glass cannon builds are only good if played with abit of deception or caught out from behind etc, if u literally charge into me, you will regret it. i will absolutely agree with you that condition thieves are a tough fight because we arent intrested in a fast kill, that being said, if you dont give us opportunitys to cnd alot and just stand outside the caltrops which rarely cover the entire point, you really cut our options alot.

Division.9618:

Brutalistik.6473:

I’ll say one thing… I wish a warrior bleed condition could stay that high for a while instead of rapidly depleting after flurry is done or trying to get high stacks.

Warriors are far better at single target bleeding. On my sword my autoattacks bleed for 15 seconds. With a bit of crit and an earth rune i can keep a very high bleed stack just with autoattack.

and it gets remove easily / as well as the stacks decreases easily when using flurry so don’t fool me about how good it is when I know how it works.

@Ember: Cluster Bomb’s bleeds only tick 4s while DB bleeds tick 10s. DB also grants evasion while applying bleeds. If you want to play a condition build you gotta swap weapons alot to achieve best results.
Btw, stealth is not a stunbreaker since stun/daze do not count as conditions. (AoE)Blind does mitigate incoming dmg while being stunned/dazed though.

I don’t see condition theieves wrecking bunkers either. There is no way you gonna beat either bunker necro or ele. This isn’t going to happen unless the bunker is playing the game for the first time. Shout guardians are extremely tough but theoretically doable at least. Meditation guardians and engis have a hard time against condition thieves and that’s it.

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

I know stealth is not a stunbreaker, but say a situation, mesmer pops his clones, magic bullets and gets ready to shatter you, steal into one of his ranged clones, which stealths you, removes a condi (likely the immobilize he just leaped on you)and break target. Close enough for a stunbreak for me, his combo is ruined, I’m out, in stealth, ready to immobilize and bleed him.

And yea, the bleed is shorter duration from clusters, but you can actually land them. If you haven’t tried the bow build out, then you don’t know how hard it can roll on blossom thieves, they will never ever land a blossom in 1v1, instead they are rooted and eat bombs. He can blossom you 3-4 times, you can evade 6-8 times a row. Then he is at range, crippled.

Dunno, it’s just something you have to try out youself to see. I’ve seen maybe 2 other thieves play it out with bow, so it’s not something you run into everyday and can make easy comparisons, my best advice is to try it out. 0/0/30/20/20, take things that buff stealth, ini regain, steal. Dodgetrops naturally. And unlike unicorn build, you don’t rely on weapon swapping at all. You can play 100% bow if you want. I use d/p in 2nd for some utility for stomps (blinds) and daze from headshot for things like guardian books.

Fighting an ele bunker with ether renewal with any condi build is pointless though, you need back up for that from a burst class.

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Once again comparing apples to oranges. Weapon skills to offensive AoE trait procs on dodge roll.

If you’re going to compare Uncatchable to anything, let it be Mark of Evasion and Evasive Powder Keg .

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Once again comparing apples to oranges. Weapon skills to offensive AoE trait procs on dodge roll.

If you’re going to compare Uncatchable to anything, let it be Mark of Evasion and Evasive Powder Keg .

Im sorry you dont know the thief skill but the dodge roll you are refering to is a fumble and 2 stacks of bleeds…. the “OP” skill your thinking of is a Utility on a 30s cd. learn to play the class b4 you make ignorant accusation about the trait… at best specc’d right a thief can dodge 4 times in a short period thats only 8 bleeds… and OMG 1 skill poof all 8 are gone GG

Seragi.5910:

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Once again comparing apples to oranges. Weapon skills to offensive AoE trait procs on dodge roll.

If you’re going to compare Uncatchable to anything, let it be Mark of Evasion and Evasive Powder Keg .

Im sorry you dont know the thief skill but the dodge roll you are refering to is a fumble and 2 stacks of bleeds…. the “OP” skill your thinking of is a Utility on a 30s cd. learn to play the class b4 you make ignorant accusation about the trait… at best specc’d right a thief can dodge 4 times in a short period thats only 8 bleeds… and OMG 1 skill poof all 8 are gone GG

I’m glad I decided to check for recent posts before posting mine. As was stated your giving our caltrops a very over exaggerated amount of damage. There are much stronger AoE skills out there to concern yourselves with.

Ember.4326:

I know stealth is not a stunbreaker, but say a situation, mesmer pops his clones, magic bullets and gets ready to shatter you, steal into one of his ranged clones, which stealths you, removes a condi (likely the immobilize he just leaped on you)and break target. Close enough for a stunbreak for me, his combo is ruined, I’m out, in stealth, ready to immobilize and bleed him.

And yea, the bleed is shorter duration from clusters, but you can actually land them. If you haven’t tried the bow build out, then you don’t know how hard it can roll on blossom thieves, they will never ever land a blossom in 1v1, instead they are rooted and eat bombs. He can blossom you 3-4 times, you can evade 6-8 times a row. Then he is at range, crippled.

Dunno, it’s just something you have to try out youself to see. I’ve seen maybe 2 other thieves play it out with bow, so it’s not something you run into everyday and can make easy comparisons, my best advice is to try it out. 0/0/30/20/20, take things that buff stealth, ini regain, steal. Dodgetrops naturally. And unlike unicorn build, you don’t rely on weapon swapping at all. You can play 100% bow if you want. I use d/p in 2nd for some utility for stomps (blinds) and daze from headshot for things like guardian books.

Fighting an ele bunker with ether renewal with any condi build is pointless though, you need back up for that from a burst class.

To land cluster bomb bleeds you need to be in melee range. If you are not close to your target it’s super easy to dodge – alot easier than DB.
DB is as fine as any other melee attack in terms of hit rate. As your enemy reads your movements and predicts your attacks so can you predict his dodges or just pressure him into wasted dodges without burning your whole initiative.

SB is totally fine. I use it alot. In fact I got my Sigil of Corruption in my SB. I’d never run without that weapon because it brings too much utility. D/D is still better in terms of damage + daggers complement the SB quite well. They key is to anticipate the battle to swap weapons accordingly.

I’d also like you to refrain from your lecturing tone. I’ve played more than 1k games on a condition thieves. I’ve been trying a lot of builds with a lot of gear sets and be sure I’ve tried using SB as main weapon but it doesn’t even come close to a well played thief using merits of both SB and D/D.

Somehing that is really puzzling me is that you bring up a thief#build1 vs thief#build2 argument. You make it sound as if thieves have unlimited immobilize/stealth-waste options which is completely false. You also make it sound as if other thieves wouldn’t use a bow. Thieves using daggers have better stealth options than SB thieves. Having that in mind landing hits isn’t hard. The most important thing to add at this point might be that standing far away from a node does not capture the node for your team.
Anyway, regardless of the fact that SB condition thieves aren’t that hard to counter, I really wonder how you got the idea to determine the overall viability of a class/build by anticipating the outcome of a duel.

As a side note,when you are aware of the fact that stealth does not break stun, then please don’t claim that it would do that. The damage mitigating effect in your scenario doesn’t come from stealth but rather from steal for the most part.
As a second side note, Uncatchable is still pretty bad.

Shadow Refuge stealth stacking needs to go. They nerfed mesmer stealth skills to not stack stealth — why should shadow refuge stack stealth?

He can’t dodge the cluster bomb while immobilized and surprise shot is a 2s immobilize.

Here’s for a regular opener, pre cast caltrops, steal into them, surprise shot, choking gas, cluster bomb. They either break immob and move away or teleport away or eat damage. Your heal stealths you. Refuge stealths you, steal from other thieves / some NPCs (blinding tuft) stealths you. Hitting 25% life stealths you. Plenty of ways to get surprise shots in to immobilize and then you can land cluster bombs. It is actually very reliable.

And I said earlier, if you trait into steal stealth, it works basicly as a stun breaker. It ports you away, it removes a condi, it makes you stealthed.

The d/d thief can try CnD, but you can just disabling shot that, he runs out of ini sooner than you. Yea he probably has a bow in 2nd set as well, but if he opens the fight with d/d out, he is gonna waste his ini without landing a blossom, then swap to bow and…autoattack for 300?

Duels are important for that build, you aren’t gonna hold a point since you rely on stealth, but you can pretty handily neutralize points, since your area denial is effective and normal node sized. Team fight presence is pretty good as well, since you aoe bleed everything on a node.

If you wanna compare games played that’s fine, I’ve about 1.1k games played as thief, 80%+ of that as condi.

As a sidenote, yes uncatchable isn’t all that good, best use is to dodge on top of someone you immobilized, or dodge on them while you are stealthed and shooting choking gas around, get some bleeds up while they can’t retaliate.

Open a topic “How is shadow refuge stacking stealth not broken?”

Seragi.5910:

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Once again comparing apples to oranges. Weapon skills to offensive AoE trait procs on dodge roll.

If you’re going to compare Uncatchable to anything, let it be Mark of Evasion and Evasive Powder Keg .

Im sorry you dont know the thief skill but the dodge roll you are refering to is a fumble and 2 stacks of bleeds…. the “OP” skill your thinking of is a Utility on a 30s cd. learn to play the class b4 you make ignorant accusation about the trait… at best specc’d right a thief can dodge 4 times in a short period thats only 8 bleeds… and OMG 1 skill poof all 8 are gone GG

It hurt my brain to read this post, but I’m going to do my best to stay constructive and reply to the points you attempted to make.

I know what Caltrops is, and I know what Uncatchable is, if you look at my post, I said Uncatchable.

You mention Uncatchable being a fumble(I assume you mean Weakness) and a bleed that ticks only twice. This is false, the conditions it applies is the same as caltrops – a bleed and a cripple – which should tick 4-5 times, as it(Uncatchable’s AoE) lasts 4 seconds. Some AoE’s tick once on creation, then once for each second of the duration.

Caltrops’ tooltip does not state that the bleeds stack twice per tick – Uncatchable’s bleeds stack once per tick, but compound.

So by your logic, with Uncatchable alone, assuming you were able to get 4 dodges off before the first Uncatchable’s 4 seconds duration fades, bleeds would stack 4x per second, for a grand total of 16-20 bleeds on crippled opponents in 4-6 seconds. If the Caltrops utility is thrown in the mix, you’d simply hit bleed cap(25) on all targets. The cripple component is being played down here, but should not be overlooked.

Realistically, you’d get 3 Uncatchables off simultaneously with Caltrops, then just keep maintaining 2-3 Uncatchables infinitely with Vigor and Feline Grace . You’re aware that this is offense output while immune to abilities (Dodging), then stealthing and getting Vigor if you run low on endurance, however some builds will use Signet of Malice instead of Hide in Shadows.

Malicious.6742:

Open a topic “How is shadow refuge stacking stealth not broken?”

Feel free to open it yourself; out of everyone I’ve known that has quit this game, shadow refuge is the top reason for them quitting and not coming back to the game.

Ember.4326:

He can’t dodge the cluster bomb while immobilized and surprise shot is a 2s immobilize.

Here’s for a regular opener, pre cast caltrops, steal into them, surprise shot, choking gas, cluster bomb. They either break immob and move away or teleport away or eat damage. Your heal stealths you. Refuge stealths you, steal from other thieves / some NPCs (blinding tuft) stealths you. Hitting 25% life stealths you. Plenty of ways to get surprise shots in to immobilize and then you can land cluster bombs. It is actually very reliable.

And I said earlier, if you trait into steal stealth, it works basicly as a stun breaker. It ports you away, it removes a condi, it makes you stealthed.

The d/d thief can try CnD, but you can just disabling shot that, he runs out of ini sooner than you. Yea he probably has a bow in 2nd set as well, but if he opens the fight with d/d out, he is gonna waste his ini without landing a blossom, then swap to bow and…autoattack for 300?

Duels are important for that build, you aren’t gonna hold a point since you rely on stealth, but you can pretty handily neutralize points, since your area denial is effective and normal node sized. Team fight presence is pretty good as well, since you aoe bleed everything on a node.

If you wanna compare games played that’s fine, I’ve about 1.1k games played as thief, 80%+ of that as condi.

As a sidenote, yes uncatchable isn’t all that good, best use is to dodge on top of someone you immobilized, or dodge on them while you are stealthed and shooting choking gas around, get some bleeds up while they can’t retaliate.

Good thieves try to make sure their attacks hit. Don’t act as if you’d dodge every single attack in the game with the help of your SB#3 and your infinit ini pool and stealth options. Your immobilize theory is easily countered by condition removal, stealth, blink, weapon dodges or just tanking it for the duration. You are pretty much wasting your defensive options for offensive purposes. You even suggest using steal against thieves – wow I’d only do that if I had no other option left for obvious reasons – oh wait you burn your stealth utility for immobilizes to land your cluster bombs, go steal thieves.
Oh I never said I wanted to compare played games or whatever. I brought this number in to give you a rogh picture of my own experience with the class since you assumed right away that I’m not familiar with the SB condition concept. In fact I’m not interested in any of those comparisons at all since they prove absolutely nothing. The fact that you misinterpretaed that statement but jumped right into that comparison just suits the way you bring forward your somewhat inconsistent and unsteady arguments.

no amount of condition removal can help you with caltrops. it’s so easy to re-apply all the bleeds, almost instantly. in addition, if the thief is forcing a few people on point to actually blow their CD’s by spamming caltrops, then isnt he winning it for the team?

Ever heard of a necro, which does the same thing, with a lot more conditions?

necros arent perma invisible while applying their bleeds.

So aren’t thieves. Apart from possible might stacks during invisibility stealth itself doesn’t make bleeds stronger. So what the eff is your point? Sorry but this is obviously a l2p issue. Do soem research on the game and combat behaviour to handle condition thieves.

i dont have an issue with thieves across all of my profs, have about 400 hours logged in tpvp alone. im just noticing some “broken” mechanics, i.e. ones open to exploits. please stay on topic, thanks.

Good thieves try to make sure their attacks hit. Don’t act as if you’d dodge every single attack in the game with the help of your SB#3 and your infinit ini pool and stealth options. Your immobilize theory is easily countered by condition removal, stealth, blink, weapon dodges or just tanking it for the duration. You are pretty much wasting your defensive options for offensive purposes. You even suggest using steal against thieves – wow I’d only do that if I had no other option left for obvious reasons – oh wait you burn your stealth utility for immobilizes to land your cluster bombs, go steal thieves.
Oh I never said I wanted to compare played games or whatever. I brought this number in to give you a rogh picture of my own experience with the class since you assumed right away that I’m not familiar with the SB condition concept. In fact I’m not interested in any of those comparisons at all since they prove absolutely nothing. The fact that you misinterpretaed that statement but jumped right into that comparison just suits the way you bring forward your somewhat inconsistent and unsteady arguments.

I was not in the first place even conversing so much to you, but to like everyone. I could go through many points in what you wrote but i’ll just say that vs bs thief for example, the typical build has 2 condi removals, heal and sstep. After those are gone he is dead from any bleeds landing. Those are 2 of his 3 stealths, incidently which I have the same in the build, on top of stealth without CnD and my stealths last 1 second longer. Everytime they stealth, I stealth, theirs runs out faster. Result is largely preditable. He either has to dodge everytime his stealth wears off, so he runs out and I can land naked cluster bombs after that.

also evading attacks with so obvious animations such as deathblossom, heartseeker, pretty much anything a warrior does ever etc is not hard, especially when you have 5 from your bow and 3 from your endurance to blow in a row.

Chaining stealths to chain immobilize works exceedingly well with teammates to take down bunkers because immobilizes wreck bunkers. If you don’t see the advantage in 3 2s immobilizes in a row on a bunker while a burst team mate is on him, then well…

Anyway, we can keep arguing, but it doesn’t change a thing about how I’m gonna play, and I assume situation is same for you.

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Once again comparing apples to oranges. Weapon skills to offensive AoE trait procs on dodge roll.

If you’re going to compare Uncatchable to anything, let it be Mark of Evasion and Evasive Powder Keg .

Im sorry you dont know the thief skill but the dodge roll you are refering to is a fumble and 2 stacks of bleeds…. the “OP” skill your thinking of is a Utility on a 30s cd. learn to play the class b4 you make ignorant accusation about the trait… at best specc’d right a thief can dodge 4 times in a short period thats only 8 bleeds… and OMG 1 skill poof all 8 are gone GG

It hurt my brain to read this post, but I’m going to do my best to stay constructive and reply to the points you attempted to make.

I know what Caltrops is, and I know what Uncatchable is, if you look at my post, I said Uncatchable.

You mention Uncatchable being a fumble(I assume you mean Weakness) and a bleed that ticks only twice. This is false, the conditions it applies is the same as caltrops – a bleed and a cripple – which should tick 4-5 times, as it(Uncatchable’s AoE) lasts 4 seconds. Some AoE’s tick once on creation, then once for each second of the duration.

Caltrops’ tooltip does not state that the bleeds stack twice per tick – Uncatchable’s bleeds stack once per tick, but compound.

So by your logic, with Uncatchable alone, assuming you were able to get 4 dodges off before the first Uncatchable’s 4 seconds duration fades, bleeds would stack 4x per second, for a grand total of 16-20 bleeds on crippled opponents in 4-6 seconds. If the Caltrops utility is thrown in the mix, you’d simply hit bleed cap(25) on all targets. The cripple component is being played down here, but should not be overlooked.

Realistically, you’d get 3 Uncatchables off simultaneously with Caltrops, then just keep maintaining 2-3 Uncatchables infinitely with Vigor and Feline Grace . You’re aware that this is offense output while immune to abilities (Dodging), then stealthing and getting Vigor if you run low on endurance, however some builds will use Signet of Malice instead of Hide in Shadows.

the caltrops that drop from dodge roll trigger once then disappear they dont stay on the ground like you r assuming…. doesnt matter how many you lay or how often you do it… you get 2 stacks and 1 fumble/cripple form 1 dodge roll end of story

the dodge roll caltrops do not stay on the ground like the aoe elite skill thats what im trying to tell you

“Oh no! A condition based build is actually reaplying their main source of damage, which without it, they’d be completly useless! I should win this fight without losing one single HP! Somebody, call the authorities!”

This is what this topic is becoming.

Asomal.6453:

“Oh no! A condition based build is actually reaplying their main source of damage, which without it, they’d be completly useless! I should win this fight without losing one single HP! Somebody, call the authorities!”

This is what this topic is becoming.

That’s not how I see it. I see it as a debate on how effective Caltrops is when compared with other viable condition builds. Many are saying that it needs to be looked at, while some are suggesting to avoid it.

I think the skill in comparison to context (capping nodes v. out in the open) is what needs to be looked at. Out in the open, this skill is easily avoidable by most. When trying to capture a node, this skill equates to “One button push, 10+ bleeds consistently,” and this is what the issue is.

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node?

If ele and necros staff destroyed people then you would see alot more ele and necros. Back on topic, nerf thieves.

Zeke Minus.5720:

Asomal.6453:

“Oh no! A condition based build is actually reaplying their main source of damage, which without it, they’d be completly useless! I should win this fight without losing one single HP! Somebody, call the authorities!”

This is what this topic is becoming.

That’s not how I see it. I see it as a debate on how effective Caltrops is when compared with other viable condition builds. Many are saying that it needs to be looked at, while some are suggesting to avoid it.

I think the skill in comparison to context (capping nodes v. out in the open) is what needs to be looked at. Out in the open, this skill is easily avoidable by most. When trying to capture a node, this skill equates to “One button push, 10+ bleeds consistently,” and this is what the issue is.

That and evasive attacks thieves have. I don’t think mesmers or thieves should have that since this game provides an endurance bar to use evade.

nerva.7940:

i dont have an issue with thieves across all of my profs, have about 400 hours logged in tpvp alone. im just noticing some “broken” mechanics, i.e. ones open to exploits. please stay on topic, thanks.

Why aren’t you complaining about Engineers then? They can trait to keep caltrops up permanently over the node. If your issue is stealth + caltrops, the Engi beats that as well with shields, because you lose the node while you’re stealthed, while shields still keep the node point.

Just seems to be more hate on thieves to me, which is proving to be only a profession that is easy mode in 8v8 where things are chaotic, otherwise, they seem right on par.

aydenunited.5729:

nerva.7940:

i dont have an issue with thieves across all of my profs, have about 400 hours logged in tpvp alone. im just noticing some “broken” mechanics, i.e. ones open to exploits. please stay on topic, thanks.

Why aren’t you complaining about Engineers then? They can trait to keep caltrops up permanently over the node. If your issue is stealth + caltrops, the Engi beats that as well with shields, because you lose the node while you’re stealthed, while shields still keep the node point.

Just seems to be more hate on thieves to me, which is proving to be only a profession that is easy mode in 8v8 where things are chaotic, otherwise, they seem right on par.

What?

If you’re talking about Box of Nails from Tool kit, it’s a 4 second duration with an 10 second cooldown, untraited. Also, Box of Nails can only stack 2 bleeds continuously without condition duration buffs of any kind.

EDIT: Even with Kit Refinement, the bleeds aren’t nearly as easy to stack. You can either have 2/3 on everyone nearly permanently, or 4/6 every 4 seconds. Plus, the radius of Box of Nails is nowhere near the size of Caltrops. The Kit Refinement proc radius is even smaller.

Also, Tool kit shield only lasts 3 seconds (20 second cooldown). Pistol/Shield only reflects projectiles/pushes back or stuns.

Bunker engi chiming in here to agree with zeke. Box of nails is kinda cool but it doesn’t really hurt people much. With kit refinement, it is possible to keep one stack of box of nails on a point for 8 out of 10 seconds.

One of the many reasons I still don’t take tool kit, even as a four-kit bunker engi, and after it got buffed, too.

Zeke Minus.5720:

aydenunited.5729:

nerva.7940:

i dont have an issue with thieves across all of my profs, have about 400 hours logged in tpvp alone. im just noticing some “broken” mechanics, i.e. ones open to exploits. please stay on topic, thanks.

Why aren’t you complaining about Engineers then? They can trait to keep caltrops up permanently over the node. If your issue is stealth + caltrops, the Engi beats that as well with shields, because you lose the node while you’re stealthed, while shields still keep the node point.

Just seems to be more hate on thieves to me, which is proving to be only a profession that is easy mode in 8v8 where things are chaotic, otherwise, they seem right on par.

What?

If you’re talking about Box of Nails from Tool kit, it’s a 4 second duration with an 10 second cooldown, untraited. Also, Box of Nails can only stack 2 bleeds continuously without condition duration buffs of any kind.

EDIT: Even with Kit Refinement, the bleeds aren’t nearly as easy to stack. You can either have 2/3 on everyone nearly permanently, or 4/6 every 4 seconds. Plus, the radius of Box of Nails is nowhere near the size of Caltrops. The Kit Refinement proc radius is even smaller.

Also, Tool kit shield only lasts 3 seconds (20 second cooldown). Pistol/Shield only reflects projectiles/pushes back or stuns.

Let’s not talk about untraited because the main complaint for Caltrops on thieves was that it was on a 24 second CD traited, so let’s assume both professions trait for it.

The radius is exactly the same via the tooltip, and visually, they both cover the same area. Unless that is inaccurate somehow, that statement there is completely false.

Caltrops can be placed every 8 seconds by an Engineer and those last for 4 seconds. With Kit Refinement that means 100% uptime on caltrops, and the radius is no smaller, again I’m not getting where that info comes from unless the visual proximity doesn’t match in game stats, and if that’s the case, it’s a bug, but it’s always worked for me as far as I can tell.

3 seconds of block on tool kit + 2 seconds of block + stun (sigil adds a little) means roughly 5-6 seconds of invulnerable on the node vs. stealth which loses you point control. That’s not considering the other things an Engi can bring to the table, I’m just saying that 5 seconds of block on a node > 6-8 seconds of stealth when it comes to point control.

Here’s the thing. You don’t have hundreds of Engineers out there stealing points from you, because that’s not as fun or quickor easy to the average player (not as much as bursty player killing), so you won’t see many complaint posts on this forum based on that. But if you’re going to make complaints based on stats, at least have your stats right. If the tooltips are wrong, I’ll accept that so am I, but based on that alone, this topic should be just as much about Engineers as it is Thieves, but the fact is, people would rather complain about Thieves.

In every MMO game.

Ever.

Here’s me on Anvil Rock hotjoin. I’ve been seeing these builds more recently and they are always getting shutdown if they are cc’d. This guy was good because I’ve seen him kick kitten with it before. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAYNxi7MuRc&feature=plcp Anyways, I don’t think caltrops is a big deal if you know the mechanics behind it, and happen to have good condition removal. I mean let’s face it. He’s not built for backstab if he’s just throwing conditions on you. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so get some aoe and condition removal no matter what profession you are.

NevirSayDie.6235:

Bunker engi chiming in here to agree with zeke. Box of nails is kinda cool but it doesn’t really hurt people much. With kit refinement, it is possible to keep one stack of box of nails on a point for 8 out of 10 seconds.

One of the many reasons I still don’t take tool kit, even as a four-kit bunker engi, and after it got buffed, too.

The damage for Thieves caltrops is a bit better, but I was under the impression most of the forum post’s problem with the skill was the radius + duration, which was what I was addressing as being no better than the Engineer’s version of it.

aydenunited.5729:

Let’s not talk about untraited because the main complaint for Caltrops on thieves was that it was on a 24 second CD traited, so let’s assume both professions trait for it.

The radius is exactly the same via the tooltip, and visually, they both cover the same area. Unless that is inaccurate somehow, that statement there is completely false.

Caltrops can be placed every 8 seconds by an Engineer and those last for 4 seconds. With Kit Refinement that means 100% uptime on caltrops, and the radius is no smaller, again I’m not getting where that info comes from unless the visual proximity doesn’t match in game stats, and if that’s the case, it’s a bug, but it’s always worked for me as far as I can tell.

3 seconds of block on tool kit + 2 seconds of block + stun (sigil adds a little) means roughly 5-6 seconds of invulnerable on the node vs. stealth which loses you point control. That’s not considering the other things an Engi can bring to the table, I’m just saying that 5 seconds of block on a node > 6-8 seconds of stealth when it comes to point control.

Here’s the thing. You don’t have hundreds of Engineers out there stealing points from you, because that’s not as fun or quickor easy to the average player (not as much as bursty player killing), so you won’t see many complaint posts on this forum based on that. But if you’re going to make complaints based on stats, at least have your stats right. If the tooltips are wrong, I’ll accept that so am I, but based on that alone, this topic should be just as much about Engineers as it is Thieves, but the fact is, people would rather complain about Thieves.

In every MMO game.

Ever.

I understand the point you’re trying to make, but this is where the ideas differ:

• Tool kit Box of Nails and Kit Refinement Tool kit spell are not the same size. I have tested this, standing the same distance from a dummy and casting each. The Box of Nails’ effective radius (not visual radius) is larger than the trait spell. The trait spell is near melee range reach.

• While it is possible to keep the (read: smaller) area covered, you can only have 2 to 4 bleeds on everyone at all times. Box of Nails: 3/4 stacks for 4 seconds. Caltrops: 6/8 stacks for 14 seconds. Both tests were done with the same bleed duration.

This means, while still somewhat threatening, this is nowhere near the level of what a Thief can do. Two to four bleeds over the point, not the 6/8 from Caltrops. You’re correct in saying that Engies have a lot of tools to be quite persistent, even capping a node when a Thief might not (or fail to neutralize it). The Engie can sustain a smaller amount of damage, but the damage is trivial.

The issue is with the size, and as someone mentioned above me, the traits along with this tactic. It’s incredibly easy and surpasses the viability of anything other professions have.

If you want to cap a node while fighting against a Caltrops Thief, you will be forced to stand in the Caltrops. This means you will be blowing cleanses left and right to stay alive as long as you can. The Thief is also applying additional bleeds whilst the Caltrop bleeds you. You may neutralize and begin capping the point, but unless you have obnoxious amounts of condition removal, you will die. This means the Thief just caps the node once you’re on the floor.

aydenunited.5729:

NevirSayDie.6235:

Bunker engi chiming in here to agree with zeke. Box of nails is kinda cool but it doesn’t really hurt people much. With kit refinement, it is possible to keep one stack of box of nails on a point for 8 out of 10 seconds.

One of the many reasons I still don’t take tool kit, even as a four-kit bunker engi, and after it got buffed, too.

The damage for Thieves caltrops is a bit better, but I was under the impression most of the forum post’s problem with the skill was the radius + duration, which was what I was addressing as being no better than the Engineer’s version of it.

Fair enough, and I also forgot that a condition engineer could potentially go twenty points into his crit damage traitline and get two seconds off his box of nails cooldown, meaning he could keep up box of nails for 9/10 seconds (the kit refinement cooldown does not change, so there’s no way to keep them up absolutely permanently).

I think the pubstomp aspect of caltrops is that a thief can easily put three layers down at once (2 dodges + utility), and then easily put out more bleeding on top of that. An engineer can put down two layers for four seconds, and doesn’t really have any other bleed stackers.

In other words, no one worries about standing in box of nails.

However, as one of two viable thief builds caltrops will not be nerfed, it is only viable because of current meta, there are several counters for it for every profession, and it does not turn new players away from PvP nearly as much as the backstab build. So…please don’t think I’m complaining. I think engineer is in a great spot balance wise. Box of nails is nothing compared to caltrops, but we’ve got plenty of other tricks up our sleeves. Like I said, that’s why I don’t take toolkit.

Seragi.5910:

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Fynd.4890:

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Once again comparing apples to oranges. Weapon skills to offensive AoE trait procs on dodge roll.

If you’re going to compare Uncatchable to anything, let it be Mark of Evasion and Evasive Powder Keg .

Im sorry you dont know the thief skill but the dodge roll you are refering to is a fumble and 2 stacks of bleeds…. the “OP” skill your thinking of is a Utility on a 30s cd. learn to play the class b4 you make ignorant accusation about the trait… at best specc’d right a thief can dodge 4 times in a short period thats only 8 bleeds… and OMG 1 skill poof all 8 are gone GG

It hurt my brain to read this post, but I’m going to do my best to stay constructive and reply to the points you attempted to make.

I know what Caltrops is, and I know what Uncatchable is, if you look at my post, I said Uncatchable.

You mention Uncatchable being a fumble(I assume you mean Weakness) and a bleed that ticks only twice. This is false, the conditions it applies is the same as caltrops – a bleed and a cripple – which should tick 4-5 times, as it(Uncatchable’s AoE) lasts 4 seconds. Some AoE’s tick once on creation, then once for each second of the duration.

Caltrops’ tooltip does not state that the bleeds stack twice per tick – Uncatchable’s bleeds stack once per tick, but compound.

So by your logic, with Uncatchable alone, assuming you were able to get 4 dodges off before the first Uncatchable’s 4 seconds duration fades, bleeds would stack 4x per second, for a grand total of 16-20 bleeds on crippled opponents in 4-6 seconds. If the Caltrops utility is thrown in the mix, you’d simply hit bleed cap(25) on all targets. The cripple component is being played down here, but should not be overlooked.

Realistically, you’d get 3 Uncatchables off simultaneously with Caltrops, then just keep maintaining 2-3 Uncatchables infinitely with Vigor and Feline Grace . You’re aware that this is offense output while immune to abilities (Dodging), then stealthing and getting Vigor if you run low on endurance, however some builds will use Signet of Malice instead of Hide in Shadows.

the caltrops that drop from dodge roll trigger once then disappear they dont stay on the ground like you r assuming…. doesnt matter how many you lay or how often you do it… you get 2 stacks and 1 fumble/cripple form 1 dodge roll end of story

the dodge roll caltrops do not stay on the ground like the aoe elite skill thats what im trying to tell you

Go test this for yourself, Uncatchable stays on the ground for 4 seconds and they compound, and stop saying fumble. Also, you must mean “utility” instead of “elite”. Once again, reading your post hurt my brain.

Seragi.5910:

Lets talk about staff ele and staff necros shall we? am I the only one who hasnt forgetten both of these classes absolutly destroy people standing on a node? your entire skill line up is aoe that cover the entire node!!! Stop crying about thief cause they have 1 AOE you nubs dont know how to counter

Why do you even compare the marks necros have to the garbage the thieves are using ?
Lets do a comparison, since you`re talking crap about classes you have no clue of:
Mark of Blood
The only necro staff aoe that applies bleeds (only 3 stacks) has a base radius of 120 (caltrops has 240 and it also cripples) and once triggered its gone, unlike the thief skill which stays on the ground preventing players from entering the area.
Besides, last i checked my necro couldnt apply 20 bleeds using 1 button in such a short time.

Get 20 stacks of bleeds use plague signet – 1 button.
Anyway, caltrops take their time to stack bleeds and you can only stack about 8 stacks.
You will never ever apply 20 stacks of bleed with just caltrops.

along with caltrops, thieves can stack 20 bleeds in a matter of seconds. they get do it again and again. while invisible for most of that time.

So what? You can remove all those bleeds within a single second using condition removal. A 100b warrior can burst you from 100 to zero in a matter of seconds, hence the mendatory stunbreaker/burst counter. Hopefully you aren’t going to open a thread called “How is 100B not broken?”…

edit: You’d only get massive blled stacks if your enemy stays in the caltrops field so probably not standing in it could help.

no because i havent died to a 100b in 2 months. you have to have zero awareness to die to a 100b, or you have to be chain cc’d for the warrior to land it. youre obviously disconnected from the situation cuz you should know that offense > defense, especially when youre invisible most of the time. cant really kill what u cant see or pin down. good caltrops spamming thieves are pretty tanky.

You’re contradicting yourself somewhat. You’re saying offense > defense (which is utterly kitten imo) and then you would point out the condition thief’s tankiness to reinforce your “argument”?
I tell you what, I haven’t died to solely condition dmg from a thief for months. Probably there is a way to cope with them like there are way to cope with bursty warriors. How about you try to find solutions to whatever class/build bothers you in pvp instead of opening one stupid “How is skill xyz of a thief not broken?” thread after another?

The thing is it’s easy to counter a hundred blade warrior once you learn the hundred blade routine. Even I’ve killed hundred blades warriors using my condition spec as a warrior because for them to land a hit they need bull rush charge, frenzy and haste to make you go down quick. The bad part for a warrior is that when they use frenzy they take 50% damage more for I don’t what reason.

For a thief you can’t see them coming because they can teleport while blinding ya or go stealth to ya and apply haste to burst you down and the bad part is they don’t take 50% damage taken. They only lose endurance which is easily to gain back especially if they have a vigor spec.

Berserker specs counter this build by destroying the thief before they can do anything

^This is totally false. Thieves protecting their OP abilities, something never changes.

Malicious.6742:

Get 20 stacks of bleeds use plague signet – 1 button.
Anyway, caltrops take their time to stack bleeds and you can only stack about 8 stacks.
You will never ever apply 20 stacks of bleed with just caltrops.

I was talking about “generating” 20 stacks with one ability. Plague signet is situational and bugged, in other words it relies on other players and most of the time it doesnt “transfer” it just copies their conditions. Let`s say i`m alone, please tell me how i can get that many bleeds that fast…

Malicious.6742:

You’re contradicting yourself somewhat. You’re saying offense > defense (which is utterly kitten imo) and then you would point out the condition thief’s tankiness to reinforce your “argument”?

offense > defense because players can apply conditions and CC much more frequently than you can defend against. meaning, once you’ve popped all your CD’s youre dead because the conditions are still piling on. im not contradicting myself because a good caltrops thief will have both the defense (ability to disengage at will) and perpetual condition application, which is not balanced.

Malicious.6742:

How about you try to find solutions to whatever class/build bothers you in pvp instead of opening one stupid “How is skill xyz of a thief not broken?” thread after another?

as i already stated in an attempt to protect my credibility, ive been tpvp’ing since beta, so i have hundreds of hours in tpvp alone and i know most profs inside out. you dont have to believe me. however, if there was a pragmatic solution, i wouldnt be making broken mechanic discussion threads. that’s why theyre “broken”.