“I am Evon Gnashblade and this message is acceptable to me.”
I'd be good too if I paid for Heart of Thorns
An Expansion as a whole isn’t pay to win. – Correct.
An Expansion that comes with a big power creep is, in fact, pay to win, because of this very aspect. Because if you don’t buy, you lose pretty often (in competetive modes that is).
It isn’t that hard to get. Especially if you look at the content additions to sPvP and WvW in total.
Edit: I’m totally fine with paying for Expasions. IF i’m okay with its content-prize value.
You do like to generalize, don`t you?Read up on what pay-to-win is. Better yet, go play some actual pay-to-win MMOs on the market. Then come back and appologise for the nonsense you were writing.
Thank you. But i know the definition of p2w. And Because it’s worse somewhere else is no excuse at all.
That’s like saying Hey, sorry you have lost yourt leg. But just imagine you would have lost both. Now just look up the definition of being handicaped and you will apologize for calling yourself handicaped now!
So. I’m standing to my opinion. Calling your statement nonsense. Aaaand we have pretty much a standoff situation. Funny isn’t lt?
Considering pay-to-win refers to required real cash purchases to stay competative on a recurring basis with no ingame way of circumventing them, I doubt you actually understand what pay-to-win is.
GW2 as most commonly agreed upon is pay-to-skip content or pay-for-convegnience.
So sure, we are at a standoff just like 2 people are at a standoff about what 2+2 is. My answer would be 4, yours is 5.
That’s not even getting into the entire concept of expansions. Now if we got started on that and compared every other MMO on the market and their approach to expansions compared to HoT…
Real money – check
to stay competetive – check
Just because you can’t buy single elite specs for real money but in a bundle with an expac doesn’t make it any better.
Argument closed. This becomes ridiculous.
Pay to win has a definition and that definition has NEVER included expansions. This is what happens when people try to take something literally that had a definition.
The original definition of pay to win was always buy power through microtransactions.
Sorry but that’s just a conceptual discussion at this point. You can circle around changing your definition infinitely if you like, it wont make anyone believe your definition is right and someone else’s isn’t.
P2W clear and simple is you pay for something with real money, which grants you more chance to win in a competitive PvP game (P2W does not really mean anything in PvE unless we’re talking speedclears). It does not matter one bit whether what you buy is an expansion, a microtransaction or anything else.
Are elite specs P2W? Yep.
So tell me what MMOs aren’t pay to win. That’s what I keep asking but no one seems to be able to answer this.
If all MMOs are pay to win then that’s the discussion even about? Why do we need the term at all?
WTF? Just buy the kitten expansion if you wanna play the new stuff. Really, what are people think? You get everything for free?
He doesn’t want to play the “new stuff.” Did you actually read his posts?
WTF? Just buy the kitten expansion if you wanna play the new stuff. Really, what are people think? You get everything for free?
He doesn’t want to play the “new stuff.” Did you actually read his posts?
Does that include PvP seasons, which is new stuff?
WTF? Just buy the kitten expansion if you wanna play the new stuff. Really, what are people think? You get everything for free?
He doesn’t want to play the “new stuff.” Did you actually read his posts?
Does that include PvP seasons, which is new stuff?
I haven’t seen any comments about Seasons. Talking about basic PvP, which has been in the game since launch.
Keep in mind HoT content will become freely accessible when the next expansion comes. Sure, it will take a while, but it will happen.
NSPride <3
I would be fine with making Custom Arenas have an option to only allow classic builds using core specializations. Good luck filling them up, but if you think there is a niche for it that is about all I can see this request warranting. No. They are not going to give you your own queue.
The funny thing about a business is that they listen to paying customers. If you don’t want to be a paying customer, then you can’t really expect developer attention to freeze your playing experience in time by further diluting the player base and lengthening queue times. All of that costs resources, and you aren’t contributing to those resources.
Like the player above posted, feel free to wait it out and get it for free in a year or two.
What they should do is just enable HoT builds in sPVP for all accounts. Problem solved.
Since sPVP is their eSport mode, they should be doing this anyway.
The rest of the game is fine with HoT enabled accounts vs ones that are not.
Desktop: 4790k@4.6ghz-1.25v, AMD 295×2, 32GB 1866CL10 RAM, 850Evo 500GB SSD
Laptop: M6600 – 2720QM, AMD HD6970M, 32GB 1600CL9 RAM, Arc100 480GB SSD
Laptop: M6600 – 2720QM, AMD HD6970M, 32GB 1600CL9 RAM, Arc100 480GB SSD
Has there ever been a competitive game that wasn’t balanced around the latest version or had the main competitive scene around the vanilla version?
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards,
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
for there you have been and there you will long to return.
Expansions are a staple of MMO’s and in most cases come with increase in character level increase in item level etc. This game is quite different in that you don’t have to grind off an extra 10 levels but in order to keep things fresh there are new specs people can use once they get the expansion. In many cases the elite specs are upgrades over the base profession but the reality is even if they perfectly balanced every elite with the base prof the player with the expansion will still have an advantage over you as they have more options available.
If your not willing to fork out 50 or so dollars for hundreds of hours of entertainment you mustn’t be really interested in the game in which case why does it matter to you how competitive you are in pvp?
I don’t want to spend hundreds of hours playing this game. You’re completely right though, if I were a die hard GW2 player, that played every day, and was grinding hard for a legendary, buying the expansion would be crucial.
However, I’m not a die hard fan, and when I do play, I like to have the same advantages in PvP as other players.
Why should I be at a disadvantage just because I don’t want to pay $50.
You shouldnt play mmos at all, go play single player games where development stops at the finished product. Gw is a mmo, and mmos have expansions. In all other mmos they add new levels, gears and more that make the new expansion owners superior in a much bigger way than gw2 expansion does. Dont play a mmo if you arent willing to buy expansions, then mmos arent for you. Gw2 is no different than other mmos in that aspect, learn to live with it, im a tiny bit tired of these types of complaints.
An Expansion as a whole isn’t pay to win. – Correct.
An Expansion that comes with a big power creep is, in fact, pay to win, because of this very aspect. Because if you don’t buy, you lose pretty often (in competetive modes that is).
It isn’t that hard to get. Especially if you look at the content additions to sPvP and WvW in total.
Edit: I’m totally fine with paying for Expasions. IF i’m okay with its content-prize value.
You do like to generalize, don`t you?Read up on what pay-to-win is. Better yet, go play some actual pay-to-win MMOs on the market. Then come back and appologise for the nonsense you were writing.
Thank you. But i know the definition of p2w. And Because it’s worse somewhere else is no excuse at all.
That’s like saying Hey, sorry you have lost yourt leg. But just imagine you would have lost both. Now just look up the definition of being handicaped and you will apologize for calling yourself handicaped now!
So. I’m standing to my opinion. Calling your statement nonsense. Aaaand we have pretty much a standoff situation. Funny isn’t lt?
Considering pay-to-win refers to required real cash purchases to stay competative on a recurring basis with no ingame way of circumventing them, I doubt you actually understand what pay-to-win is.
GW2 as most commonly agreed upon is pay-to-skip content or pay-for-convegnience.
So sure, we are at a standoff just like 2 people are at a standoff about what 2+2 is. My answer would be 4, yours is 5.
That’s not even getting into the entire concept of expansions. Now if we got started on that and compared every other MMO on the market and their approach to expansions compared to HoT…
Real money – check
to stay competetive – check
Just because you can’t buy single elite specs for real money but in a bundle with an expac doesn’t make it any better.
Argument closed. This becomes ridiculous.
Pay to win has a definition and that definition has NEVER included expansions. This is what happens when people try to take something literally that had a definition.
The original definition of pay to win was always buy power through microtransactions.
Sorry but that’s just a conceptual discussion at this point. You can circle around changing your definition infinitely if you like, it wont make anyone believe your definition is right and someone else’s isn’t.
P2W clear and simple is you pay for something with real money, which grants you more chance to win in a competitive PvP game (P2W does not really mean anything in PvE unless we’re talking speedclears). It does not matter one bit whether what you buy is an expansion, a microtransaction or anything else.
Are elite specs P2W? Yep.
So tell me what MMOs aren’t pay to win. That’s what I keep asking but no one seems to be able to answer this.
If all MMOs are pay to win then that’s the discussion even about? Why do we need the term at all?
MMOs where they separate expansion owners from non expansion owners. Take WoW for example. It’s been a while since I played it so I’ll take Lich king as an example: Wrath of the Lich King raised the level cap from 70 to 80, but you can’t get matched against level 80 folk if you didn’t get the expansion, not even level 71.
An expansion owner couldn’t get higher stats on a level 70 character to beat up those who don’t have expansion. He couldn’t get more skill ( If I remember correctly) . The competitive scene on level 70 stayed the same even with the addition of the expansion
I walked down the street and saw three phone booths. The middle one had a sign that said out of order. And I was wondering if it belonged before the first one or after the last one.
What words mean literally isn’t how English or any language works. Words have definitions for reasons. The reason for pay to win was to let people tell the difference between legit and illegit games.
Saying it literally means this in English means nothing. There are many many phrases in English that mean something very different from what they mean when literally interpreted.
And you don’t get to make up definitions just because you think it’s what the words mean.
If every single MMO is pay to win then the term itself becomes meaningless and you’ve corrupted the original definition. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to do that.
And there is still more than one “definition” to p2w. Urban Dictonary for example votes one of many definitions for one single topic. Definitions, plural.
You will get the least error if you take it literally and go from there, because pay-to-win and out of order compare like apples and dogs. And if anything is just a senseless speech for you that needs interpretation..
Man, words.. in any language, seem to mean nothing at all for you.
So. I accept your opinion. Whatever it is. Because you never have written down your very own interepretation, nor the source of your definition (which is still one of many..). And it is an interpretation, because p2w and it’s definition isn’t written in stone. Main thing about your posts is “i’m against what you are saying”. Okay. I get that already.
Still a senseless conversation.
I played the MMO shooter “Global Agenda” for about 2 years. The Expac there did nothing at all to destroy the game’s near perfect balancing. They even gave one of the classes a soft overhaul to make things even better. And i loved the game`s developers for it.
I`ve played Rappelz for almost 3 years. Almost the same. The big expacs gave new dungeons and fluff (cosmetics), higher max. lvls and stuff. But the balancing was kept intact. And this thing is even free to play + an asia grinder.
The WoW example was already posted. (Depends on the Expansion i suppose. Was just around when the first one hit.)
Thing is.. I’m disappointed about a-net. Because instead of balancing their game, they just threw things over. Destroying the meta could have been awesome. But building a new one behind a paywall isn`t.
(edited by ViperClaw.1590)
An Expansion as a whole isn’t pay to win. – Correct.
An Expansion that comes with a big power creep is, in fact, pay to win, because of this very aspect. Because if you don’t buy, you lose pretty often (in competetive modes that is).
It isn’t that hard to get. Especially if you look at the content additions to sPvP and WvW in total.
Edit: I’m totally fine with paying for Expasions. IF i’m okay with its content-prize value.
You do like to generalize, don`t you?Read up on what pay-to-win is. Better yet, go play some actual pay-to-win MMOs on the market. Then come back and appologise for the nonsense you were writing.
Thank you. But i know the definition of p2w. And Because it’s worse somewhere else is no excuse at all.
That’s like saying Hey, sorry you have lost yourt leg. But just imagine you would have lost both. Now just look up the definition of being handicaped and you will apologize for calling yourself handicaped now!
So. I’m standing to my opinion. Calling your statement nonsense. Aaaand we have pretty much a standoff situation. Funny isn’t lt?
Considering pay-to-win refers to required real cash purchases to stay competative on a recurring basis with no ingame way of circumventing them, I doubt you actually understand what pay-to-win is.
GW2 as most commonly agreed upon is pay-to-skip content or pay-for-convegnience.
So sure, we are at a standoff just like 2 people are at a standoff about what 2+2 is. My answer would be 4, yours is 5.
That’s not even getting into the entire concept of expansions. Now if we got started on that and compared every other MMO on the market and their approach to expansions compared to HoT…
Real money – check
to stay competetive – check
Just because you can’t buy single elite specs for real money but in a bundle with an expac doesn’t make it any better.
Argument closed. This becomes ridiculous.
Pay to win has a definition and that definition has NEVER included expansions. This is what happens when people try to take something literally that had a definition.
The original definition of pay to win was always buy power through microtransactions.
Sorry but that’s just a conceptual discussion at this point. You can circle around changing your definition infinitely if you like, it wont make anyone believe your definition is right and someone else’s isn’t.
P2W clear and simple is you pay for something with real money, which grants you more chance to win in a competitive PvP game (P2W does not really mean anything in PvE unless we’re talking speedclears). It does not matter one bit whether what you buy is an expansion, a microtransaction or anything else.
Are elite specs P2W? Yep.
So tell me what MMOs aren’t pay to win. That’s what I keep asking but no one seems to be able to answer this.
If all MMOs are pay to win then that’s the discussion even about? Why do we need the term at all?
MMOs where they separate expansion owners from non expansion owners. Take WoW for example. It’s been a while since I played it so I’ll take Lich king as an example: Wrath of the Lich King raised the level cap from 70 to 80, but you can’t get matched against level 80 folk if you didn’t get the expansion, not even level 71.
An expansion owner couldn’t get higher stats on a level 70 character to beat up those who don’t have expansion. He couldn’t get more skill ( If I remember correctly) . The competitive scene on level 70 stayed the same even with the addition of the expansion
Really? WoW?
Just to refresh your memory (or give a glimps on something your rose colored glasses omitted). Expansions in WoW are the epitome of power creep and making old content obsolete by:
1.) introducing new specialisations/classes/complete skill/class revamps all of which focused only on max level leaving things vastly unbalanced before that
2.) anything sub max level is dead content, even the regular pvp which at best gets populated by max geare twinks. That is not even mentioning arena availability which is only viable at max level
3.) constant currency revamp and increased leveling speed for low levels to keep the “time to max level” aproximately similar even with a new expansion. That is completely ignoring Blizzards instant max level or level xyz services available
4.) many more things like new trade hubs which are more convegnient than the old ones, extreme gold inflation due to higher enemies droping more and more reward, 2-3 month introduction of new max level gear to keep people mindlessly farming, etc.
All of this was already in place with Lich King (even with BC). You are just willfully forgetting or ignoring things. WoW Expansion are and always have been THE definition of “buy it or leave the game”.
tl;dr: Comparing the GW2 HoT expansion to WoW expansions under the aspect of pay-to-win is like comparing a minor cough to fullblown cancer, with aids, malaria and a severe stroke riding along side it. Take a guess as to which is which.
(edited by Cyninja.2954)
What they should do is just enable HoT builds in sPVP for all accounts. Problem solved.
Since sPVP is their eSport mode, they should be doing this anyway.
The rest of the game is fine with HoT enabled accounts vs ones that are not.
Creates another problem, needing the revenue from PvP portion of game since there are PvP only players.
If you’re too poor to pay money to support the company that makes a great game you enjoy playing as a hobby then maybe you should find something more productive to do with your time.
No it doesn’t bother me I’ve payed about $100 dollars for three years plus of gaming counting the original box plus expansion. I’ve had my problems with A-net but the cost of the experience is not one of them. You numbnuts that think you are entitled to free games or $40.00 or $50.00 buys you unlimited content forever I don’t get one bit because these games cost a lot to develop and maintain. Although apparently there is enough of you that some 75 year old commie clown almost got the nomination for president of a major political party. When you get a little older or actually accumulate some assests you’ll understand that nothing is free and that you are entitled to nothing but life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
(edited by brannigan.9831)
I’d really like to keep the following two issues separate:
- Anet wanting to be paid for their work.
- Elite build power creep.
Crying about the first isn’t going to get a lot of sympathy, but the second is a valid issue. Of course, locking the more powerful elite builds behind a paywall does link the two issues, but this discussion will make more sense if you think about the two issues separately.
No it doesn’t bother me I’ve payed about $100 dollars for three years plus of gaming counting the original box plus expansion. I’ve had my problems with A-net but the cost of the experience is not one of them. You numbnuts that think you are entitled to free games or $40.00 or $50.00 buys you unlimited content forever I don’t get one bit because these games cost a lot to develop and maintain. Although apparently there is enough of you that some 75 year old commie clown almost got the nomination for president of a major political party.
That is not the point. It’s not about getting stuff for free. At least i’m okay with the idea of elite specs for money. New possibilities. New builds. Just yes!
Also. Everyone has another idea about the amount of content that should come with a 50$ pricetag. Not seeing enough value doesn`t mean you are too stingy or poor to support the developer.
It’s more about this game’s balancing / power creep. That’s what this thread should be about.
But this is becoming the home of a smartypants convention right now.
Just read OCs post again, please.
Edit: I won`t answer OOT comments anymore. Because if this continues, this thread is about to get nowhere. And that means it’s pretty much getting closed by a-net.
Have a nice one!
(edited by ViperClaw.1590)
They marketed and SOLD it so.
No, you don’t own the game. You bought a license to play it. Have you read the terms of service that you agreed to?
An Expansion as a whole isn’t pay to win. – Correct.
An Expansion that comes with a big power creep is, in fact, pay to win, because of this very aspect. Because if you don’t buy, you lose pretty often (in competetive modes that is).
It isn’t that hard to get. Especially if you look at the content additions to sPvP and WvW in total.
Edit: I’m totally fine with paying for Expasions. IF i’m okay with its content-prize value.
You do like to generalize, don`t you?Read up on what pay-to-win is. Better yet, go play some actual pay-to-win MMOs on the market. Then come back and appologise for the nonsense you were writing.
Thank you. But i know the definition of p2w. And Because it’s worse somewhere else is no excuse at all.
That’s like saying Hey, sorry you have lost yourt leg. But just imagine you would have lost both. Now just look up the definition of being handicaped and you will apologize for calling yourself handicaped now!
So. I’m standing to my opinion. Calling your statement nonsense. Aaaand we have pretty much a standoff situation. Funny isn’t lt?
Considering pay-to-win refers to required real cash purchases to stay competative on a recurring basis with no ingame way of circumventing them, I doubt you actually understand what pay-to-win is.
GW2 as most commonly agreed upon is pay-to-skip content or pay-for-convegnience.
So sure, we are at a standoff just like 2 people are at a standoff about what 2+2 is. My answer would be 4, yours is 5.
That’s not even getting into the entire concept of expansions. Now if we got started on that and compared every other MMO on the market and their approach to expansions compared to HoT…
Real money – check
to stay competetive – check
Just because you can’t buy single elite specs for real money but in a bundle with an expac doesn’t make it any better.
Argument closed. This becomes ridiculous.
Pay to win has a definition and that definition has NEVER included expansions. This is what happens when people try to take something literally that had a definition.
The original definition of pay to win was always buy power through microtransactions.
Sorry but that’s just a conceptual discussion at this point. You can circle around changing your definition infinitely if you like, it wont make anyone believe your definition is right and someone else’s isn’t.
P2W clear and simple is you pay for something with real money, which grants you more chance to win in a competitive PvP game (P2W does not really mean anything in PvE unless we’re talking speedclears). It does not matter one bit whether what you buy is an expansion, a microtransaction or anything else.
Are elite specs P2W? Yep.
So tell me what MMOs aren’t pay to win. That’s what I keep asking but no one seems to be able to answer this.
If all MMOs are pay to win then that’s the discussion even about? Why do we need the term at all?
MMOs where they separate expansion owners from non expansion owners. Take WoW for example. It’s been a while since I played it so I’ll take Lich king as an example: Wrath of the Lich King raised the level cap from 70 to 80, but you can’t get matched against level 80 folk if you didn’t get the expansion, not even level 71.
An expansion owner couldn’t get higher stats on a level 70 character to beat up those who don’t have expansion. He couldn’t get more skill ( If I remember correctly) . The competitive scene on level 70 stayed the same even with the addition of the expansion
Really? WoW?
Just to refresh your memory (or give a glimps on something your rose colored glasses omitted). Expansions in WoW are the epitome of power creep and making old content obsolete by:
1.) introducing new specialisations/classes/complete skill/class revamps all of which focused only on max level leaving things vastly unbalanced before that
2.) anything sub max level is dead content, even the regular pvp which at best gets populated by max geare twinks. That is not even mentioning arena availability which is only viable at max level
3.) constant currency revamp and increased leveling speed for low levels to keep the “time to max level” aproximately similar even with a new expansion. That is completely ignoring Blizzards instant max level or level xyz services available
4.) many more things like new trade hubs which are more convegnient than the old ones, extreme gold inflation due to higher enemies droping more and more reward, 2-3 month introduction of new max level gear to keep people mindlessly farming, etc.
All of this was already in place with Lich King (even with BC). You are just willfully forgetting or ignoring things. WoW Expansion are and always have been THE definition of “buy it or leave the game”.tl;dr: Comparing the GW2 HoT expansion to WoW expansions under the aspect of pay-to-win is like comparing a minor cough to fullblown cancer, with aids, malaria and a severe stroke riding along side it. Take a guess as to which is which.
My point is if you want to avoid the powercreep generated by the expac you have the option to do that at least in PvP. Where is that option here?
I wish you guys would stop arguing about what “pay to win” means and instead talk about whatever it is that you think is wrong with the game. Arguments about language aren’t likely to be resolved here — even scholars disagree with the meaning of words|phrases that are new or evolving.
Isn’t the issue that some people think — with good reason — that those without elite specs are at a disadvantage in PvP? Is there anyone who disagrees with that? Assuming you agree that elite specs are “superior”, is that okay for competitive PvP?
Apparently ANet thinks it’s okay, because they have had two opportunities to rebalance vanilla specs vs elites and the relative power remains the same. I remember them saying that elites weren’t supposed to be superior, that “elite” was just a a jargon term, but their actions seem to indicate otherwise.
Disclaimer: I own HoT and I don’t play much PvP, so I’m not sure that my opinion means much in terms of how the community feels or the long-term health of the game mode.
tl;dr stop arguing about the words and focus on the concern: are elites too powerful relative to base specs and, if so, how big a problem is that for the game mode?
John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”
(edited by Illconceived Was Na.9781)
2. Separate players who have paid for Heart of Thorns and people who have not.
If they did so I’d downgrade to the regular game from HoT.
Thief balance thread here.
6k+ PvP games
6k+ PvP games
I wish you guys would stop arguing about what “pay to win” means and instead talk about whatever it is that you think is wrong with the game. Arguments about language aren’t likely to be resolved here — even scholars disagree with the meaning of words|phrases that are new or evolving.
Isn’t the issue that some people thing — with good reason — that those without elite specs are at a disadvantage in PvP? Is there anyone who disagrees with that? Assuming you agree that elite specs are “superior”, is that okay for competitive PvP?
Apparently ANet thinks it’s okay, because they have had two opportunities to rebalance vanilla specs vs elites and the relative power remains the same. I remember them saying that elites weren’t supposed to be superior, that “elite” was just a a jargon term, but their actions seem to indicate otherwise.
Disclaimer: I own HoT and I don’t play much PvP, so I’m not sure that my opinion means much in terms of how the community feels or the long-term health of the game mode.
tl;dr stop arguing about the words and focus on the concern: are elites too powerful relative to base specs and, if so, how big a problem is that for the game mode?
Word!
Oh and i’ve stopped.
Thx for your words of reason.
Thoughts?
I always buy the biggest package available if I like someting. In times where people want everything for free and complain about grocery prices yet own and operate cellphones (if you have a computer to play GW2 on and a cellphone, I bet you basically pay twice. That is monthly cost that could be avoidable) and expensive gadgets I enjoy to get a premium state for a comparably small price. Nobody would cry at let’s say Apple for not handing out free iPhones, because we know they never do. Arena-Net hands out a endless trial and people complain why they don’t get the full thing. “Give him an inch and he will take a mile.”
Fair enough, I “had to” buy HoT when I clicked on “Buy GW2 today” I got re-directed. But else, I think this sort of topic is always semi-whiny.
People say they do not want to spend money. Yeah.. You made your decisions.
People say they can not spend money. Then you can still buy it later or work for it, but the undertone of these people was like “This game sucks because I can not afford it”. Guess what, I neither could as kid. But I accepted it.
I think it’s justified. It’s their house, their rules. And I rather have all people to pay rent so the entire house can be maintained nicely. Else this game would go down. Just like Pruitt Igoe did..
Zedexx, sly Asura Thief/Assassin
and politically highly incorrect. (#Asuracist)
“We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!”
and politically highly incorrect. (#Asuracist)
“We [Asura] are the concentrated magnificence!”
Might I ask why you don’t want to buy HoT?
Investing in the game helps it grow and evolve. Elite specs are a big part of that process.
but this game hasnt grown or evolved. i feel like i wasted my money. needing to buy HoT makes pvp pay-to-play because the elites are OP compared to core specs. they said they wouldnt make it this way, and they lied hard.
I wish you guys would stop arguing about what “pay to win” means and instead talk about whatever it is that you think is wrong with the game. Arguments about language aren’t likely to be resolved here — even scholars disagree with the meaning of words|phrases that are new or evolving.
Isn’t the issue that some people think — with good reason — that those without elite specs are at a disadvantage in PvP? Is there anyone who disagrees with that? Assuming you agree that elite specs are “superior”, is that okay for competitive PvP?
Apparently ANet thinks it’s okay, because they have had two opportunities to rebalance vanilla specs vs elites and the relative power remains the same. I remember them saying that elites weren’t supposed to be superior, that “elite” was just a a jargon term, but their actions seem to indicate otherwise.
Disclaimer: I own HoT and I don’t play much PvP, so I’m not sure that my opinion means much in terms of how the community feels or the long-term health of the game mode.
tl;dr stop arguing about the words and focus on the concern: are elites too powerful relative to base specs and, if so, how big a problem is that for the game mode?
I don’t find them to be an issue. It’s still a major issue of skill and build, as opposed to one spec, which once known can be countered.
Two equally skilled players, the one using an Elite Spec is not promised victory, as such, I have no issues with it being in the game as it is.
There are two kinds of gamers, salty, and extra salty
If you havent bought hot and are still complaining you have no one to blame but yourself…its been 5 months, its 50 bucks thats 10 a month, ÷ that by 4 its 2.50$ a week
Big Papa Chase – Warrior and Guardian
Papa’s Lady Luck- Necro
(HELL)
Papa’s Lady Luck- Necro
(HELL)
If you havent bought hot and are still complaining you have no one to blame but yourself…its been 5 months, its 50 bucks thats 10 a month, ÷ that by 4 its 2.50$ a week
Nice math. But bad balancing / power creep isn’t self-inflicted by the player by not buying HoT. Buying HoT will show a-net that this direction is okay. Some ppl do things out of principle. For example: Not buying Hot, because of its power creep.
I know what you want to do. Going against all those, who say, that they have not the money for HoT. But maybe its true? Do you know where they live and in what conditions? Life can be hard to some ppl. And apart from that, games don’t have a main role in ppls life sometimes. Money can be invested in more essential things.
And you shall not and can not judge the financial situation of other ppl. Even if it’s just 2,50 a week. It’s up to them, not to you.
Try to give some reasonable input to the topic please.
Or can we all imagine that your post means: I’m okay with powercreep! – Buy and win, or continue whining! ..maybe in a rather indirectly sort of way!?
These sledgehammer posts are becoming old. Please stop it already!
(edited by ViperClaw.1590)
If you havent bought hot and are still complaining you have no one to blame but yourself…its been 5 months, its 50 bucks thats 10 a month, ÷ that by 4 its 2.50$ a week
Nice math. But bad balancing / power creep isn’t self-inflicted by the player by not buying HoT. Buying HoT will show a-net that this direction is okay. Some ppl do things out of principle. For example: Not buying Hot, because of its power creep.
I know what you want to do. Going against all those, who say, that they have not the money for HoT. But maybe its true? Do you know where they live and in what conditions? Life can be hard to some ppl. And apart from that, games don’t have a main role in ppls life sometimes. Money can be invested in more essential things.
And you shall not and can not judge the financial situation of other ppl. Even if it’s just 2,50 a week. It’s up to them, not to you.Try to give some reasonable input to the topic please.
Or can we all imagine that your post means: I’m okay with powercreep! – Buy and win, or continue whining! ..maybe in a rather indirectly sort of way!?
These sledgehammer posts are becoming old. Please stop it already!
That is reasonable…whats really becoming annoying is the QQ threads about this game being pay2 win…which it obviously is not if you have ever played an actual p2w game…what should i tell him…there has been no signs to show elite specs will be even with regular ones…hmmm maybe thats why they are called elite?
e·lite
??l?t,??l?t/
noun
1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.
“the elite of Britain’s armed forces”
synonyms: best, pick, cream, crème de la crème, flower, nonpareil, elect; More
Go play wow with no expansions and tell me how you compare to people with all of them, or any mmo. At least in this game they let you play still, some games would close the non hot servers. And btw there is still people making it to legendary without the elites…why not support anet if you want better balancing? Give them the resources they need to keep the game going and a balance team in place, rather then QQing about something that isnt going to change they are already working on the next elite specs for the next expansion…and again if you need help knowing what elite means i know someone who teaches 3rd grade english
Big Papa Chase – Warrior and Guardian
Papa’s Lady Luck- Necro
(HELL)
Papa’s Lady Luck- Necro
(HELL)
Let me make something perfectly clear to you OP it seems you are confused.
1) Gw2 F2P is nothing but a glorified demo
and if you want to be competitive
2) You have to buy the game, which includes HoT
Kinda the same thing you have to do with Counter-Strike: Global Offensive and the upcoming Overwatch and various other competitive games. I know, shocker …
and last but not least
3) With HoT you don’t buy power, you buy base level. In simpler words, you won’t be better than me just by owning HoT.
and a bonus 4th point
4) There are still some viable core builds.
(edited by Ravenmoon.5318)
That is reasonable…whats really becoming annoying is the QQ threads about this game being pay2 win…which it obviously is not if you have ever played an actual p2w game…what should i tell him…there has been no signs to show elite specs will be even with regular ones…hmmm maybe thats why they are called elite?
e·lite
??l?t,??l?t/
noun
1.
a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.
“the elite of Britain’s armed forces”
synonyms: best, pick, cream, crème de la crème, flower, nonpareil, elect; MoreGo play wow with no expansions and tell me how you compare to people with all of them, or any mmo. At least in this game they let you play still, some games would close the non hot servers. And btw there is still people making it to legendary without the elites…why not support anet if you want better balancing? Give them the resources they need to keep the game going and a balance team in place, rather then QQing about something that isnt going to change they are already working on the next elite specs for the next expansion…and again if you need help knowing what elite means i know someone who teaches 3rd grade english
Sorry but it’s not only called “Elites”. It’s Elite Specializations, what gives it a whole new context. So it’s pretty much the creme de la creme in a certain craft, or aspect of the class. That doesn’t have to mean to be superior over all.
Apart from the fact, that a-net has told us, that your “elite” theory wouldn’t be the case.
And yes other MMOs have exaggerated the power creep by far. But It’s not another MMOs forum here, isn’t lt? Just look at GW2s old manifesto. It’s just a shame what’s happening if you still remember it.
Edit: Over 3 years and a bunch of money should have enabled them to fix the balancing pretty much. Chances for fixing the balancing and giving more build diversity by spending more money aren’t very high. There are core flaws. For example: Not splitting up PvEs and PvPs balancing, what hinders this game heavily on having more build diversity.
(edited by ViperClaw.1590)
An Expansion as a whole isn’t pay to win. – Correct.
An Expansion that comes with a big power creep is, in fact, pay to win, because of this very aspect. Because if you don’t buy, you lose pretty often (in competetive modes that is).
It isn’t that hard to get. Especially if you look at the content additions to sPvP and WvW in total.
Edit: I’m totally fine with paying for Expasions. IF i’m okay with its content-prize value.
You do like to generalize, don`t you?Read up on what pay-to-win is. Better yet, go play some actual pay-to-win MMOs on the market. Then come back and appologise for the nonsense you were writing.
Thank you. But i know the definition of p2w. And Because it’s worse somewhere else is no excuse at all.
That’s like saying Hey, sorry you have lost yourt leg. But just imagine you would have lost both. Now just look up the definition of being handicaped and you will apologize for calling yourself handicaped now!
So. I’m standing to my opinion. Calling your statement nonsense. Aaaand we have pretty much a standoff situation. Funny isn’t lt?
Considering pay-to-win refers to required real cash purchases to stay competative on a recurring basis with no ingame way of circumventing them, I doubt you actually understand what pay-to-win is.
GW2 as most commonly agreed upon is pay-to-skip content or pay-for-convegnience.
So sure, we are at a standoff just like 2 people are at a standoff about what 2+2 is. My answer would be 4, yours is 5.
That’s not even getting into the entire concept of expansions. Now if we got started on that and compared every other MMO on the market and their approach to expansions compared to HoT…
Real money – check
to stay competetive – check
Just because you can’t buy single elite specs for real money but in a bundle with an expac doesn’t make it any better.
Argument closed. This becomes ridiculous.
Pay to win has a definition and that definition has NEVER included expansions. This is what happens when people try to take something literally that had a definition.
The original definition of pay to win was always buy power through microtransactions.
Sorry but that’s just a conceptual discussion at this point. You can circle around changing your definition infinitely if you like, it wont make anyone believe your definition is right and someone else’s isn’t.
P2W clear and simple is you pay for something with real money, which grants you more chance to win in a competitive PvP game (P2W does not really mean anything in PvE unless we’re talking speedclears). It does not matter one bit whether what you buy is an expansion, a microtransaction or anything else.
Are elite specs P2W? Yep.
So tell me what MMOs aren’t pay to win. That’s what I keep asking but no one seems to be able to answer this.
If all MMOs are pay to win then that’s the discussion even about? Why do we need the term at all?
I don’t play any other MMO than GW2, precisely because all of them are trash when it comes to balance. It just so happens I like GW2 combat a lot, and it could be balanced, but it isn’t.
If GW2 combat were balanced I would buy expansion without a doubt, but at this moment, I really do not care for it. A lot of my friends who did buy Heart of Thorns quit the game precisely because the PvP balance is a problem, and they were fighting the same builds over and over, and they themselves were forced in running those same builds relying on elite specs.
Anyways this discussion over what is or what isn’t P2W is rather pointless. What I struggle with is that ArenaNet said that elite specialisations wouldn’t be upgrades compared to core specialisations, and yet they are clearly stronger. That is not a good design practice, especially when you ‘claim’ esports.
Smash 4 makes you pay for DLCs and play in For Glory with people who paid for the DLC even if you haven’t. And nobody complains.
Actually a kitten ton of people complain. kitten you, Bayonetta!
Expansions are a staple of MMO’s and in most cases come with increase in character level increase in item level etc. This game is quite different in that you don’t have to grind off an extra 10 levels but in order to keep things fresh there are new specs people can use once they get the expansion. In many cases the elite specs are upgrades over the base profession but the reality is even if they perfectly balanced every elite with the base prof the player with the expansion will still have an advantage over you as they have more options available.
If your not willing to fork out 50 or so dollars for hundreds of hours of entertainment you mustn’t be really interested in the game in which case why does it matter to you how competitive you are in pvp?
I don’t want to spend hundreds of hours playing this game. You’re completely right though, if I were a die hard GW2 player, that played every day, and was grinding hard for a legendary, buying the expansion would be crucial.
However, I’m not a die hard fan, and when I do play, I like to have the same advantages in PvP as other players.
Why should I be at a disadvantage just because I don’t want to pay $50.
Why do you feel so entitled is my question. If someone has a better computer and Internet connection, they are going to have an advantage in pvp. If someone has faster reflexes, they are going to have an advantage in pvp. If someone owns HOT, they will have more build options, not necessarily an advantage.
Also, I guess someone should tell you: Anet exists to make money. Just like all businesses. There’s no subscription fee, so gem sales and expansions are how they pay their employees. What makes you think they are going to spend time on something to make it easier for people who don’t contribute to the game anymore?
Count the money in your piggy bank, mow a few lawns, then buy the expansion. The core game was out for like 3 years before HOT. Haven’t you gotten your money’s worth yet?
Or you could just stop being a cheap bum, get a job and pay the $50 like every other normal person.
What they should do is just enable HoT builds in sPVP for all accounts. Problem solved.
Since sPVP is their eSport mode, they should be doing this anyway.
The rest of the game is fine with HoT enabled accounts vs ones that are not.
Creates another problem, needing the revenue from PvP portion of game since there are PvP only players.
Solution: Finishers and all other cosmetics.
No need to justify pay 2 win.
5x Warrior, 5x Ranger, 4x Elementalist, 4x Engineer,
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
4x Necromancer, 3x Mesmer, 4x Guardian, 4x Thief, 4 Revenant
Unless you’re attempting to compete in Pro Leagues then you don’t need Heart of Thorns to win. There are a lot of core builds that can be successful all the way up into legendary. When they aren’t successful is when fighting teams using VOIP that know whatever your weakness is.
Ranger
Am I good?… I’m good.
Am I good?… I’m good.
Or you could just stop being a cheap bum, get a job and pay the $50 like every other normal person.
facepalm
If you want to know why i’m reacting this way:
Scroll up and look up what i’ve written to Chase.2798.
Same old, same old.
Unless you’re attempting to compete in Pro Leagues then you don’t need Heart of Thorns to win. There are a lot of core builds that can be successful all the way up into legendary. When they aren’t successful is when fighting teams using VOIP that know whatever your weakness is.
of course you dont need it, but at an equal skill level the person with the better (HoT) build is gonna win 9 times out of 10
Achmed Afro Thunder ~ Six Ft Pole Achmed ~ Dharok The Ravenous
Long Live [ASAP] Zerg: The greatest guild that ever was or will be.
Long Live [ASAP] Zerg: The greatest guild that ever was or will be.
Welcome to video games. They cost $ to make, so they cost $ to play. Enjoy your stay.
P.s. If this was WoW, you’d be level 20, which, I can assure you, is a much stronger handicap in PvP. =P
(edited by Dahkeus.8243)
Unless you’re attempting to compete in Pro Leagues then you don’t need Heart of Thorns to win. There are a lot of core builds that can be successful all the way up into legendary. When they aren’t successful is when fighting teams using VOIP that know whatever your weakness is.
of course you dont need it, but at an equal skill level the person with the better (HoT) build is gonna win 9 times out of 10
That’s my experience aswell, having HoT and every elite spec except for chronomancer for now (for WvW that is, of course).
(edited by ViperClaw.1590)
of course you dont need it, but at an equal skill level the person with the better (HoT) build is gonna win 9 times out of 10
Not necessarily. It depends on the relative strengths and weaknesses of the builds you’re both using. Honestly a perfectly even fight between two equally skilled fighters was extremely rare in this game even before HoT. Builds counter other builds.
In fact even the most powerful builds in PVP can often times be countered by builds not even in the meta. And the only reason the non-meta counter build isn’t a part of the meta is because there’s another build that is, and it hard counters it.
Basically this game’s PVP is a mix of rock paper scissors and straight skill, so the idea that two equally skilled players will always have equal odds of winning a fight has never been true during the course of the game’s existence, save in very rare circumstance.
Correct me if I’m wrong but just about every MMO requires you to buy the new expacs to get access to new classes. WoW with WOTLK and Death Knights and Pandaria for monks and soon Legion for Demon Hunters. LotRO required you to buy the MoM for Wardens and Rune Keepers and zones for the Beorning. Having to buy Xpacs to get new classes has and always will be a thing. It’s not P2W you can beat elite specs no problem with base classes as long as you have even the slightest idea of what you are doing.
Ullr Thorgislwulf: 80 Ranger Yaks Bend sPvP & WvW
Eladan of Greenwood: 80 Ranger
Elemir Swiftblade: 80 Thief
Eladan of Greenwood: 80 Ranger
Elemir Swiftblade: 80 Thief
Much like Call of Duty, and the hundreds of other games that offer DLC’s, console games separate players who have paid for the DLC from accessing new maps, new gear, etc.
Now GW2 needs to either:
1. Disable the Heart of Thorns special builds from PvP
or
2. Separate players who have paid for Heart of Thorns and people who have not.Preferably, PvP adjusts all the armor and weapons so nobody has advantages, GW2 needs to block these special builds, why?
Because it’s simply UNFAIR.Ok I know what you’re thinking, yeah this kid is complaining so what we’ve been hearing this for months, just get better…
Doesn’t it bother anyone that you have to PAY for be better?
1. It’s discouraging playing PvP with the Heart of Thorns build.
2. It makes me feel like I’m not valued as a player.
3. I feel like it ruins the overall competitive spirit of the game.Thoughts?
Just like every MMO known to man kind, with expansions comes new classes and new builds. Comparing GW2 to CoD is a bit far fetched. Unlike Call of Duty, you can still play with people who bought the next expansion. Unlike Call of Duty, there are numerous classes that effect the way you play. Unlike Call of Duty, not every player is created equally by picking up a sniper rifle off the ground. Unlike Call of Duty, the game is not 90% PvP 10% Story.
The whole “i can’t afford HoT so i can never be good” excuse is old and tiring. There have been numerous players who do not own Heart of Thorns who hit Legend. Hell, there have been numerous free accounts who have hit Legend. Unless they hacked their way to it, they must have done something right with the base classes, even if they were being carried by the same 4 people.
You do not have to pay to be better, you just chose to make this an excuse as to why you can’t adapt or why you aren’t willing to try to be better. You want an excuse to validate why you are not progressing. That is on you, not the game.
Yes, the Elite Specializations do make things a little easier; however, it does not replace the skill and experience factor within pvp. I’ve seen people playing Base classes that trash their Elite Spec counterparts.
What you are suggesting is longer queues and special treatment because you refuse to upgrade to the next expansion. Next you will want Anet to create 3 separate servers that is exclusive to the base game that HoT players can not play on. That way they can play in PvE without dealing with HoT players and they can play WvW without dealing with HoT players.
Former PvP Forum Specialist
2015-2016
Fort Aspenwood
2015-2016
Fort Aspenwood
You guys are just arguing for nothing. Elite specs are buy to win. Yes they are stronger, so not deny it. Oh some of you will say “but i own ….. elite spec with my vanilla…”. But that is solely a failure of your opponent.
Elite specs are stronger. Game is buy to win. No problems. This is not e-sports. This is an e-sport club at most, where the distinguished have more privilege. This came can not be an e-sport with current system and balance (including elite vs vanilla).
Yes Anet is a company, and it is not right for it to demand money from us. Especially if we bought the game 8 months before the patch. Oh all the mmos do it? Well they are wrong too. Multitude does not make something right. But you are free to leave. Or accept that there is no equality. And there will never be. Anet is not the family you have been longing for. It is a bloody company that aims to profit.
I do not have HoT. And will not have until the mentality of anet changes. I neber wanted a druid on my ranger, or a dh on my guardian. Or another melee dps on my thief. And still we have several bugs and balance fixes that are needed. Until then I will not spend a single dollar for a game that demands 50 bucks again after 8 months. If I wanted to pay that, I would play WoW.
So do not bother arguing. And do not think that Anet is your friend. Other players will support anet because they gain something too. Upgrade, buy the expansion…etc. Stop playing pvp. No one can force you to play. If you are not happy, just dont play. I dont. My guild dont. My friends dont.
You guys are just arguing for nothing. Elite specs are buy to win. Yes they are stronger, so not deny it. Oh some of you will say “but i own ….. elite spec with my vanilla…”. But that is solely a failure of your opponent.
Elite specs are stronger. Game is buy to win. No problems. This is not e-sports. This is an e-sport club at most, where the distinguished have more privilege. This came can not be an e-sport with current system and balance (including elite vs vanilla).
Yes Anet is a company, and it is not right for it to demand money from us. Especially if we bought the game 8 months before the patch. Oh all the mmos do it? Well they are wrong too. Multitude does not make something right. But you are free to leave. Or accept that there is no equality. And there will never be. Anet is not the family you have been longing for. It is a bloody company that aims to profit.
I do not have HoT. And will not have until the mentality of anet changes. I neber wanted a druid on my ranger, or a dh on my guardian. Or another melee dps on my thief. And still we have several bugs and balance fixes that are needed. Until then I will not spend a single dollar for a game that demands 50 bucks again after 8 months. If I wanted to pay that, I would play WoW.
So do not bother arguing. And do not think that Anet is your friend. Other players will support anet because they gain something too. Upgrade, buy the expansion…etc. Stop playing pvp. No one can force you to play. If you are not happy, just dont play. I dont. My guild dont. My friends dont.
What?
3 Years > 8 months
2012-2015
Rest of your post has valid info and arguments though
Former PvP Forum Specialist
2015-2016
Fort Aspenwood
2015-2016
Fort Aspenwood
So, I took off for about two months.
I come back and we’re still talking about this. lol?
When did it become a sin for GW2 to have an expansion? Folks act like they’re getting ripped off even before they’re spending a dime. Talk about privilege.
I’m not usually on the corporation/company’s side, trust me. But, no. People who paid should not have their stuff disabled. No, Anet should not cater to the person who doesn’t want to purchase the expansion.
That’s what it is. An expansion. WoW had them (and as said before, they functionally made all previous content obsolete). Other MMOs had expansions, as well. It’s not Pay to Win. I’m pretty sure that term is predated by the concept of MMO expansions. When I picked up HoT, I didn’t pick up an item that would let me win. I purchased new content from the game developer.
This isn’t a MOBA. This isn’t LoL or SMITE or DOTA II. If you choose to play only one aspect (and granted, I pretty much only PvP), that’s on you.
If you want to PvP with all options available to you, you’re buying the expansion. End of story. I suggest getting used to it and adapting (which is possible), or god forbid – forking out some money.
If you need to console yourself at night about the money you felt forced to fork out, divide your play time by the price of HoT. MMO expansions are nearly always worth the investment for time value.
( I must be old. I never thought of this as “pay to win.” It’s a friggin’ expansion. Is P2W the new gamer buzzword? Geez. I remember -standalone- expansions, back when you could buy what was essentially a new game, but called an expansion for some reason.)
The idea that Arenanet would incentivize people to not buy their expansion when they’re giving away the core game for free is kind of silly.
Especially when they’re literally giving money to their top tier players at this point.
It’s not like they’re selling consumables that make you deal 50% more damage for an hour. They’re selling an expansion at a one time fee. The expectation is that people heavily invested enough in any ascpect of the game to care about new content, new specs, PvP rank, or any sort of progression is that they’ll care enough to support the developers financially.
It’s a pretty standard model for MMOs because it’s by and large the most fair model for running an online game. In stead of relying on a “whale tax” and expecting a small portion of the players to subsidize the majority by dropping unreasonable amounts of money, the implementation is a “toll road” where everyone ends up on even footing as long as they drop a reasonable and small amount of cash at a relatively infrequent interval.
Of course your HoT builds are going to be a little better. They result from a larger pool of options. When there’s only one apex predator (and there can ever be only one apex predator in the meta) its never in anet’s best interests to ensure that apex predator is the guy that never pays them a dime.
Guild Master – The Papacy [POPE] (Gate of Madness)/Road Scholar for the Durmand Priory
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
Writer/Director – Quaggan Quest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ky2TGPmMPeQ
“Pay-to-win” has become a buzzword for any perceived injustice where paying players gain access to content which is not immediately accessible to non-paying players.
It doesn’t even matter if the content provides a competitive advantage. So long as it’s desirable and exclusive it will be labeled “pay-to-win” and judged accordingly.
Still, it baffles me how someone could consider an expansion “pay-to-win” content. I’ve always considered expansions to be different games entirely.
Thread should have ended here.
MMORPG expansions are not pay-to-win. The game was updated. That update was called Heart of Thorns. If you don’t want to play the updated, current version of the game, that’s up to you.
Tarnished Coast
“Pay-to-win” has become a buzzword for any perceived injustice where paying players gain access to content which is not immediately accessible to non-paying players.
It doesn’t even matter if the content provides a competitive advantage. So long as it’s desirable and exclusive it will be labeled “pay-to-win” and judged accordingly.
Still, it baffles me how someone could consider an expansion “pay-to-win” content. I’ve always considered expansions to be different games entirely.
Thread should have ended here.
MMORPG expansions are not pay-to-win. The game was updated. That update was called Heart of Thorns. If you don’t want to play the updated, current version of the game, that’s up to you.
it’s pay to win for PVP because the elites are OP compared to core specs. if you can play an elite, you will be losing. that’s first.
secondly, they promised, time and time again, that elite specs will not be the next level, the next power creep. that they would be on par with the core specs. this was obviously stated by those who did/analyzed zero pvp testing (i.e. Colin at the time).