Guild Wars 2

ResJudicator.7916:

Condi-HGH beats out every other class at being able to stack a large amount of high-damage conditions in an area. However, you sacrifice a good amount for the amount of aoe damage you can put out. Namely, you have 0 CC, limited mobility, and limited survivability (although you’re far more durable than a glass cannon).

It seems like HGH Engis seem especially strong right now because they are a compelling counter to the current ele/ranger-heavy meta. HGH engies may seem less powerful once the metas change. For example, I’ve found that teams who can maintain high retaliation uptime do very well against HGH engies. One grenade attack into a group of three people will proc 9 ticks of retaliation. Pistol 2, 3, and 4 will also proc multiple ticks of retaliation.

Dual Pistol thief have access to Glue Shot, which is an immobilize, then cripple.
Shield offhand has Magnetic Inversion which is a knockback.

On top of that they have their elite, which stuns, and immobilizes until destroyed.

They have alot of condi remove with Cleaning Formula 409. They also have access to regen, vigor and protection.

Not to mention the chill uptime, which is an extreme defense. You can kite way better if the enemy is chilled by 66% and on top of that it heavily increases the enemies cooldowns, which in return lessens the pressure on you (while making your pressure higher, by increasing their defensive cooldowns).

And yes reta is a counter to it, but AoE reta is a counter to any attack which hits multiple times, because reta is just… kitten ( I really wrote kitten :P )

Varonth.5830:

ResJudicator.7916:

Condi-HGH beats out every other class at being able to stack a large amount of high-damage conditions in an area. However, you sacrifice a good amount for the amount of aoe damage you can put out. Namely, you have 0 CC, limited mobility, and limited survivability (although you’re far more durable than a glass cannon).

It seems like HGH Engis seem especially strong right now because they are a compelling counter to the current ele/ranger-heavy meta. HGH engies may seem less powerful once the metas change. For example, I’ve found that teams who can maintain high retaliation uptime do very well against HGH engies. One grenade attack into a group of three people will proc 9 ticks of retaliation. Pistol 2, 3, and 4 will also proc multiple ticks of retaliation.

Dual Pistol thief have access to Glue Shot, which is an immobilize, then cripple.
Shield offhand has Magnetic Inversion which is a knockback.

On top of that they have their elite, which stuns, and immobilizes until destroyed.

They have alot of condi remove with Cleaning Formula 409. They also have access to regen, vigor and protection.

Not to mention the chill uptime, which is an extreme defense. You can kite way better if the enemy is chilled by 66% and on top of that it heavily increases the enemies cooldowns, which in return lessens the pressure on you (while making your pressure higher, by increasing their defensive cooldowns).

And yes reta is a counter to it, but AoE reta is a counter to any attack which hits multiple times, because reta is just… kitten ( I really wrote kitten :P )

There’s no need to mention Supply Drop, it’s literally in EVERY competitive Engie build because it’s our only competitive elite. So this is irrelevant to the HGH build.

Access to vigor, regen, and protection is only one of those 3, not all three, and it’s random. Everyone has complained about RNG since launch, now suddenly it’s OP in this particular build?

Crippled and chilled are usually considered soft CC, in that, they only hinder the freedom of executing your moves as planned, they do not flat out stop them, like knockback/blowout/knockdown/stun/dazed which the HGH build is severely lacking in. Typically, most don’t consider things like cripple to be reliable CC for a fight, in that, it’s not anything that will usually determine the outcome, all other things being equal, whereas a well timed stun will.

These are not reasons HGH should be considered OP nor anything else, they are just things all Engies have, in literally every build, viable or not.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

I know the traits. Could you give me another example of a class that can stack 25 might on its own for 40 seconds?

Necromancers can sustain rather easily close to 25 stacks of might without using a grandmaster trait. Probably has to do with a skill called “Blood is Power” that can keep 10 stacks of might on them permanently provided they get enough might duration boosts.

Do you know anything about Necromancer? Anything at all? Why in the hell would any Necromancer want to put so much in boon duration that he gets a single 25 stack of might? For what purpose? To well bomb?

As to the topic, Engineers are fine, their supply drop is a little on the strong side, but otherwise they’re perfectly fine.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Do you know anything about Necromancer? Anything at all? Why in the hell would any Necromancer want to put so much in boon duration that he gets a single 25 stack of might? For what purpose? To well bomb?

What? Why does a condition HGH build like might so much? Because it improves damage of his conditions tremendously.

Well, a 25 might condition necromancer with epidemics is good too. Less access to burning but much better access to bleeds. And if you got some team mates that put burning themselves you can epidemics it to nearby mobs/players with your own condition damage stat anyway.

Congratulations, have you ever thought for once that in order to achieve all that glorious might, we’d be sacrificing condition damage ANYWAY!? Along with other more useful traits. We’re not boon based like Guardians, and it actually hurts us to try for them.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Congratulations, have you ever thought for once that in order to achieve all that glorious might, we’d be sacrificing condition damage ANYWAY!? Along with other more useful traits. We’re not boon based like Guardians, and it actually hurts us to try for them.

Are you talking about necromancers or something here? I’m kind of lost.

I just said you don’t even need a trait to make it work. 10 stacks from blood is power which is an utility, 12-13 from the sigil of battle, the same the HGH builds use and some more might stacks here and there to round it up. Then you have to put at least 20 points into death magic which gives toughness and boon duration but no need for a trait. So you are free to pick those you want there and they aren’t wasted even if you don’t use a minion since you can get improvements to staff there and some stuff like vulnerability applied while in DS.

So, just for the cost of 20 points in Death Magic, 1 sigil in your weapon and all your runes, you can get around 20-25 stacks of might up permanently in combat. With a buildup that is MUCH better than HGH because you just cast Blood is Power and 10 stacks of Might happen, along with a very strong bleed on your target and a weaker bleed on you. That you’ll promptly transfer to your target obviously.

Sure. Right. Naturally it’s that simple. You just put up all those boons and dominate everything. That must be why I see so many boon spamming Necromancers at high tier tPvP including myself. Oh but wait…

Might doesn’t make right.

No matter how much you troll, I did answer the original question correctly.

“Could you give me another example of a class that can stack 25 might on its own for 40 seconds?”

Necromancer with at least 80% more might duration using 20 or 30 points in death magic, sigil of battle and the utility “Blood is Power”. That leaves plenty of room to make a build around it. It’s even less strict than HGH is since the later requires

If the high level tPvP doesn’t make use of it, it’s not the point. It could be a lack of synergy after like HGH gets with elixirs and Cleansing Formula. Could be because HGH can do the same role better. Or can be because they didn’t try it yet.

And despite all that, I still answered the question with a base build that is less restrictive than what requires HGH to do the same.

Now you are getting rude. Someone said warrior can do it. As a “practical” example, the whole warrior class is a wrong answer in tPvP and you aren’t picking on that.

Possibly because I didn’t see it.

Despite the fact that might is more valuable to Warriors and infact necessary to them, I would’ve also pointed out problems with that notion.

Regardless, Engineer does not need a nerf. Elementalist needs a nerf, Trap ranger needs to be nerfed while having Ranger’s other capabilities buffed. Warrior needs to be buffed. Necro needs to be buffed. Stealth needs to be nerfed as a whole (And buff the viabaility of other builds that aren’t heartseeker related for Thieves).

But Engineer doesn’t need to be nerfed.

Indeed, Engineer HGH doesn’t need a nerf because it puts a lot of boons in use and the we have yet to see how much boon hate will punish that.

Ostricheggs.3742:

I know it might seem a little over the top, but if I created, played and theorycrafted the build more than anyone else in the game.

People have been theorycrafting HGH builds since before the game even came out.

Clearly I’m a bad engineer, because I average 12 stacks of might with spikes to 16 stacks and sometimes 20 if auto-elixir b procs at the right time during a fight.

I run the standard hgh grenades build, sigil of battle, boon duration/might duration runes, I swap weapons in combat blah blah…

I guess only “OP” players can manage 25 stacks for 40 seconds as I see purported all over the forums.

Also, +1 to Chaith. Well said.

Aaaand again! Does an unexperienced community yell and shout about something they don’t know a thing.
There has been a thread in the engineer forum about the weakspots of th HGH build, and guess what? There are plenty things we engis don’t have when rolling an HgH build (auch as zero stability options. ZERO.). but because no one plays our class you don’t know what we do or how to get us,→ go to the engineers forum and ask!
Plus have you ever seen #1 pistol damage? Even with 25 might it crits for 500 MAX.

You come at me with some real arguments, and some real engineer knowledge before you start complaining.

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

Aaaand again! Does an unexperienced community yell and shout about something they don’t know a thing.
There has been a thread in the engineer forum about the weakspots of th HGH build, and guess what? There are plenty things we engis don’t have when rolling an HgH build (auch as zero stability options. ZERO.). but because no one plays our class you don’t know what we do or how to get us,-> go to the engineers forum and ask!
Plus have you ever seen #1 pistol damage? Even with 25 might it crits for 500 MAX.

You come at me with some real arguments, and some real engineer knowledge before you start complaining.

Well that’s fine about pistol AA because one its a condition damage attack not really meant to do that much direct damage… And have you seen how much damage ohhh I don’t know Mesmer staff one does? Pretty sad as well even when fully zerked out… Oh and you also have poison darts/static shot/flame blast and if the flame blast hits in this build that is 4k damage from burning before even considering the might stacks. Have a good day.

Ele’s are still the strongest class imo. Guardians also (just look at em dominate the leaderboards). BUT. Hgh engies are definitely in the conversation. But (and maybe its bc I play an engy) I still find eles to be the most annoying aspect of spvp.

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

Aaaand again! Does an unexperienced community yell and shout about something they don’t know a thing.
There has been a thread in the engineer forum about the weakspots of th HGH build, and guess what? There are plenty things we engis don’t have when rolling an HgH build (auch as zero stability options. ZERO.). but because no one plays our class you don’t know what we do or how to get us,-> go to the engineers forum and ask!
Plus have you ever seen #1 pistol damage? Even with 25 might it crits for 500 MAX.

You come at me with some real arguments, and some real engineer knowledge before you start complaining.

Throw Elixir S = stability 50% of the time
Nobody uses Pistol #1 in an HGH build you swap to pistols to unload poison dart, flamethrower, static shot and maybe the glue thing then right back to nades.

notanewmethod.8267:

Clearly I’m a bad engineer, because I average 12 stacks of might with spikes to 16 stacks and sometimes 20 if auto-elixir b procs at the right time during a fight.

I run the standard hgh grenades build, sigil of battle, boon duration/might duration runes, I swap weapons in combat blah blah…

I guess only “OP” players can manage 25 stacks for 40 seconds as I see purported all over the forums.

Same here, I occassionally see 20ish stacks but more often, during a fight, I see mid to late teens. However, I imagine that maybe I could be abusing the weapon swap sigil a bit more – I admit I am certainly not nearly the same level players as some of these other guys like ostrich and chaith.

HGH is a strong trait. Its also our ONLY strong trait. The rest of Engineer is pure crap, and a lot of stuff is bugged. (snipe, deployable turret for example) Also our elixer U has been broken with new changes. Now 1/3 of time those skills do just nothing at all because they removed invisiblity barier from the RNG.. If you think Engineer is OP then seriously look at some thiefs/mesmer/elementalist.. They are gods that you cant even touch sometimes.

And turrets just dont work well in pvp OR pve.. maybe in a 1vs1? I dont want my engi for just 1vs1 with turret builds.

Grenix.1576:

HGH is a strong trait. Its also our ONLY strong trait. The rest of Engineer is pure crap, and a lot of stuff is bugged. (snipe, deployable turret for example) Also our elixer U has been broken with new changes. Now 1/3 of time those skills do just nothing at all because they removed invisiblity barier from the RNG.. If you think Engineer is OP then seriously look at some thiefs/mesmer/elementalist.. They are gods that you cant even touch sometimes.

And turrets just dont work well in pvp OR pve.. maybe in a 1vs1? I dont want my engi for just 1vs1 with turret builds.

I wouldn’t say its the only strong trait. It is a very strong trait, yes. But Incendiary Powder is also strong, as proccing the strongest damaging condition in a condition build definitely is useful.

Not all of the classes have access to burning in the game, or are considered viable when building for that as opposed to building for something the metagame considers them strong at.

Not that it is an issue with the class either, but it isn’t like this particular trait is making condi engineers any weaker either.

I wish Rangers would get the same buff as engie…

Rangers don’t need a buff unless you nerf Trap ranger.

stof.9341:

Indeed, Engineer HGH doesn’t need a nerf because it puts a lot of boons in use and the we have yet to see how much boon hate will punish that.

More than that, there’s a lack of discussion on counters to this build, and that silence is deafening. I don’t mean general stuff like “boon hate”, I mean getting down to specifics like builds, traits, comps, and play style that can counter the build, which are also viable. We’re not seeing high level players with working knowledge of how the build functions talking about how to counter it. This build certainly has weaknesses.

There’s less than half a conversation here.

Arekai.5698:

I wish Rangers would get the same buff as engie…

What buff?

HGH has been buffed like 4 month ago.

Our last “buff” were actually more of a nerf the anything.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Rangers don’t need a buff unless you nerf Trap ranger.

If you mean that AoE needs to be nerfed across the board like they said, yes. If you think that just because a class has an apex predator problem with a build, that build should be nerfed before it receives any additional improvements, then that would be a terrible way to balance any class.

Just like with the rest of this thread. There is more than one way to go about balancing out classes other than nerfing them, like adding counter mechanics or giving other classes better options to deal with builds that are currently strong. There are many ideas that people are fond of that make for good options for balancing out the game (like introducing more boon removal and condition removal).

Regardless of whether such ideas are implemented, no class deserves to have its only viable metagame build(s) nerfed BEFORE it receives any additional improvements. It would be better to buff all the other options first, then see what builds/classes are still outperforming others and why that is the case, and then nerf from there. You can’t just start throwing nerfs around before that point because you never know if the build that people consider OP would still be OP after other buff are presented.

Silentsins.3726:

stof.9341:

Indeed, Engineer HGH doesn’t need a nerf because it puts a lot of boons in use and the we have yet to see how much boon hate will punish that.

More than that, there’s a lack of discussion on counters to this build, and that silence is deafening. I don’t mean general stuff like “boon hate”, I mean getting down to specifics like builds, traits, comps, and play style that can counter the build, which are also viable. We’re not seeing high level players with working knowledge of how the build functions talking about how to counter it. This build certainly has weaknesses.

There’s less than half a conversation here.

I think that´s because not a single non-engineer player bothered to at least try the class and learn its mechanics. It´s always easier to call something OP instead of trying to find strategies against it.

Now hands up. Who of you guys made an engineer because they wanted to learn the mechanics and weaknessess of HgH?

All I get from this thread is that 9/10 people have little to no idea how the build works. Which would mean they’re getting outplayed more often than not since a good HGH-engi has learned how to cover his weaknesses (of which there are many) against virtually every type of class/build and even then he still dies to all the “normal” faceroll builds of BS Thieves and Shatter Mesmers, etc.

Solution: do your home work

How come people are saying this is a hard counter to elementalists?

A properly build ele has access to these condition nerfs.

1 on water swap (personally don’t take this) (15-9s cooldown)
1 on water swap because of removal on regen (traited) (15-9s cooldown)
1 for every cantrip because removal on regen and cantrips give regen (traited)
3 for Cleansing Fire if you take it (45s cooldown I believe, can be traited)
1 for Cleansing Wave (D/D) (40s cooldown)
1 for Evasive Arcana dodge (every water attunement swap) (15-9 seconds cooldown)

Heals
Glyph heals removes one condition when healing in water , gives regen (traited to remove condition)
Ether Renewal is a long channeling heal that removes a condition every pulse, and there are EIGHT

All this together makes me think elementalist is the class with the best condition removal in the game. Yes, they can be killed with conditions, but to me I think it’s the hardest to take down.

Silentsins.3726:

stof.9341:

Indeed, Engineer HGH doesn’t need a nerf because it puts a lot of boons in use and the we have yet to see how much boon hate will punish that.

More than that, there’s a lack of discussion on counters to this build, and that silence is deafening. I don’t mean general stuff like “boon hate”, I mean getting down to specifics like builds, traits, comps, and play style that can counter the build, which are also viable. We’re not seeing high level players with working knowledge of how the build functions talking about how to counter it. This build certainly has weaknesses.

There’s less than half a conversation here.

A good counter to this build would be a boon removal build. Now I’d say mesmer is just about the best guy for the job in that park but with there absolutely terrible condition removal they’d be dead by the time they reached the guy with the absolutely insane amount of conditions literally every attack in this build except grenade 1 innately applies conditions. After that I’d say a necro is best bet since they can transform your boons in a few ways but few people bring a necro on their team as of late….. And lastly we have retal share from builds like bunker guards….However people are currently screaming for retal nerfs which the devs will.most likely listen to evenn though the damage isn’t as high in PVP as elsewhere… Yummy isn’t the flavor of the month delicious boys and girls.

jportell.2197:

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

Aaaand again! Does an unexperienced community yell and shout about something they don’t know a thing.
There has been a thread in the engineer forum about the weakspots of th HGH build, and guess what? There are plenty things we engis don’t have when rolling an HgH build (auch as zero stability options. ZERO.). but because no one plays our class you don’t know what we do or how to get us,-> go to the engineers forum and ask!
Plus have you ever seen #1 pistol damage? Even with 25 might it crits for 500 MAX.

You come at me with some real arguments, and some real engineer knowledge before you start complaining.

Well that’s fine about pistol AA because one its a condition damage attack not really meant to do that much direct damage… And have you seen how much damage ohhh I don’t know Mesmer staff one does? Pretty sad as well even when fully zerked out… Oh and you also have poison darts/static shot/flame blast and if the flame blast hits in this build that is 4k damage from burning before even considering the might stacks. Have a good day.

umm have you seem how much damage a staff glamour Mesmer does in WvW? :P

google.3709:

jportell.2197:

Ferum Flamebender.5910:

Aaaand again! Does an unexperienced community yell and shout about something they don’t know a thing.
There has been a thread in the engineer forum about the weakspots of th HGH build, and guess what? There are plenty things we engis don’t have when rolling an HgH build (auch as zero stability options. ZERO.). but because no one plays our class you don’t know what we do or how to get us,-> go to the engineers forum and ask!
Plus have you ever seen #1 pistol damage? Even with 25 might it crits for 500 MAX.

You come at me with some real arguments, and some real engineer knowledge before you start complaining.

Well that’s fine about pistol AA because one its a condition damage attack not really meant to do that much direct damage… And have you seen how much damage ohhh I don’t know Mesmer staff one does? Pretty sad as well even when fully zerked out… Oh and you also have poison darts/static shot/flame blast and if the flame blast hits in this build that is 4k damage from burning before even considering the might stacks. Have a good day.

umm have you seem how much damage a staff glamour Mesmer does in WvW? :P

IN WVW CUPCAKE! Guess what condition they have there that is essentially neutered inPVP?CONFUSION… Comparing a wvw glamour build to PvP is just about the worst intra class build comparison you could do in this game…. Unless confusion is stacked through the roof in sPvP it is barely a tickle and reallly the biggest reason a mesmer would take torch is for the extra stealth.

lol! i just woke up! don’t judge me! hehe

I’ve played it on tPvP tho, personally it worked great for bunkering but is not as fun as playing sword shatter tho

I honestly hope they nerf the hgh nade build just because i hate playing it, feels so brain dead to play.
I don’t think the build as whole is anywhere hard to play, only nades is abit of tricky but even if you miss a few it’s still very effective(and i don’t feel nades are that hard to hit besides random dodges). And even played sloppy it feels very very effective.
And don’t feel like the build has any real natural enemy, only class i felt was a problem was the super mega tanky BM rangers but that was mostly a l2p thing from my side probably.

However it don’t really provide any team utility besides dmg (which is one of the main reasons i think of it as a braindead build) :/

I really don’t like the nade build myself but I feel you could do something with just about any other kit and possibly be somewhat as effective… however I could be completely wrong in this but a couple point shifts while keeping the sigils runes and Alchemy line you may be able to be just as effective with bomb kit… But then again I could be completely wrong… Engineer needs team friendly buffs though the random RNG from tossed elixirs is kinda bogus and well if people were to give eilixir gun a shot maybe it might do some good but then again maybe they just need to mess around with some of the other kits to make them as good as grenades… Flamethrower would be cool… If it had a better landing ration…

Just so we get on the same point here..

Ostricheggs who claims HgH is OP so valiantly actually has:

ALMOST 1200!!!! tourney games on ladder! (so 1200 games ever since ladder started counting which is an insane! number)
over 5000!!!! matches played on engineer

honestly WHAT kitten! Ostrich is just that good – the build doesnt really matter in his case.

The number of other engineers doing solo qeue and still making top1000 is pretty darn limited (in fact there are 0 others i know of other than Ostrich but you can educate me on that!)

Then again you can make top 1000 with a few lucky wins in a row so maybe its not that representative.

Here are a few easy pro tips how to counter HgH engineer for easy instawins:

- STAY ON RANGE whatever the kitten you do dont get in close – all engi dps comes in close range/nades get harder to dodge point blank and blowtorch is only really worth using when in close
- DODGE SHRAPNEL
- DODGE BLOWTORCH
- KITE ENGI HgH engi is actually really bad at kiting unless the opponent allows himself to be kited – aside from the chill grenade on 16 sek cd and the aoe cripple from pistol on 25 or 20 sek cd (which can both be dodged very easily) – so in a logical row with what i said previously just kite the engi yourself instead and walk out of his nades (yes you dont even need to dodgeroll as long as you dont get too close)

ezezezezez

retaliation counters engi .

All they’ve done is nerf engineers

Rump Buffalo.2594:

ALL THEY’VE DONE IS NERF ENGINEERS

so buff them to where other stuff is viable and whoever says you can’t get 25 stacks of might in this build is full of it… This needs nerfed into the ground now…

jportell.2197:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

ALL THEY’VE DONE IS NERF ENGINEERS

so buff them to where other stuff is viable and whoever says you can’t get 25 stacks of might in this build is full of it… This needs nerfed into the ground now…

you don’t start with full 25 stacks, you BUILD THEM over time, usually in more than 30-40 secs of fight.

you have a WHOLE BUILD built around gaining and sustain might.

HGH engie is OP because it has the most array of conditions available, with possible fast re-applications but even there i wouldn’t say it’s engie fault but other classes lacks ( a ranger in order to do the same needs to sacrifice a stunbreaker, necro has no access to burning while not having more bleeds power or more chillings, condi thief and mesmer are simply a joke).

HGH engie is simply well designed, but has tons of weakness that can be exploited bit no one seems to care.

1. burst
a good thief will always win against a HGH engie, as long as he avoids freeze nade and glue shot.

2. retaliation

take an offensive symbol guard, put reta on 2-3 people and watch the engie killing himself in no time

3. CCs

aside elixir s, the enge has no stunbreakers. i know it seems ridicolous, but a hammer warrior can 100-0 a enge by stunlocking him.

hope it helps.

Mrbig.8019:

jportell.2197:

Rump Buffalo.2594:

ALL THEY’VE DONE IS NERF ENGINEERS

so buff them to where other stuff is viable and whoever says you can’t get 25 stacks of might in this build is full of it… This needs nerfed into the ground now…

you don’t start with full 25 stacks, you BUILD THEM over time, usually in more than 30-40 secs of fight.

you have a WHOLE BUILD built around gaining and sustain might.

HGH engie is OP because it has the most array of conditions available, with possible fast re-applications but even there i wouldn’t say it’s engie fault but other classes lacks ( a ranger in order to do the same needs to sacrifice a stunbreaker, necro has no access to burning while not having more bleeds power or more chillings, condi thief and mesmer are simply a joke).

HGH engie is simply well designed, but has tons of weakness that can be exploited bit no one seems to care.

1. burst
a good thief will always win against a HGH engie, as long as he avoids freeze nade and glue shot.

2. retaliation

take an offensive symbol guard, put reta on 2-3 people and watch the engie killing himself in no time

3. CCs

aside elixir s, the enge has no stunbreakers. i know it seems ridicolous, but a hammer warrior can 100-0 a enge by stunlocking him.

hope it helps.

It doesn’t because I have played against all of those people on my engie in the last 4-5 hours… People saying this build is hard to play? Well either i’m wickedly talented or they are exaggerating EVER so slightly… The amount of time it takes to build up these stacks is really none at all you can get 16 stacks OUTSIDE of combat which means you are not relying on the sigil of battle and in combat it takes 10 seconds at most to max it out this build has the ability to nuke an entire point when other builds could do that (MESMER) it was destroyed nerfed…. What’s even worse is that Mesmer build had no survivability whatsoever and this build has quite a bit aside from the stun break we have the 6 separate condition cleansers whether they are tossed or consumed not to mention the consumed ones give 2 stacks of might and the thrown ones give one stack of might add that in with the near MINUTE long duration of might and you have yourself one tough cookie of a build…. If anything this needs the might reduced on the HGH as far as the stacks given OR you can no longer stack two different runes to get might duration…. As it is now I am running this build until it gets nerfed not because I want to but because I know that the second I face a team that just so happens to have one of these my team is toast… No AOE condition cleanses can keep up with these especially considering how much extra condition damage you get from the might… This build is over the top and I do not care one bit what they do in compensation as long as something about this build gets destroyed… It is not hard to pull off… No harder to pull off than a BS thief, bunker guard, shatter mes, or d/d ele… Don’t try and treat it as such… These counters you speak of may be just dandy if the engi is caught off guard or the Mesmer on the other team just so happens to be smart enough to bring shattered concentration but that is only if the engi gets down off the ledge where the clones can reach him… But since retal scales off of power and this build has a ton of power with the might even a BS thief might kill themselves before they are down… It does too many things at once that no other build can think of doing not even d/d eles

@jportell

TL:DR

Mesmer complaining about a class doing too many things at once, which IMHO is cute.
Oh and also why 9 stacks of might on every shatter added to a popular and strong meta build is bad.

P.S. How rare was mesmers before the SS buff in the meta? Have they died out completely after the nerf? If so im not seeing it since im having a mesmer in about every game. Honestly i see a good deal more mesmers than hgh engies in tourneys and believe me, i notice when there is another engineer in the game. Its like spotting a frickin unicorn made of fireworks in that cloud of clones that is pvp.

EDIT: I forgot to add, you are probably right in that it will be utterly destroyed. Arenanet have never handled engineers with any delicacy be it buff (rare) or nerf. So ill leave you to hasten this process so that you can go back to mes/ele/guard meta. Because 2012 was such an interesting year for pvp.

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

Ok. I’m gonna call bullkitten yet again.

1. I’ve already said my piece on the builds difficulty. I’m not talking about nuking kitten down in a hotjoin because I’ve 3v1’d in hotjoins and won before.

2. You can’t get 16 might stacks and get 25 stacks in combat instantly unless you’re using both enhance performance, 6 might duration runes, a sigil of battle and HgH. You’re not going to jump from 16 to 25 might stacks in combat. Sigil of battle has a 9-10 second CD. This is pure hyperbole.

3. I’ve already explained how nuking an “entire point” is pretty stupid. Anyone who literally sits on a point next to a guardian eating grenades like they’re free candy DESERVES to die. Good players in tourneys do not do that. People in hotjoins do.

4. Mesmers shattered might was wayyyyyy different than HGH is. It was an unnecessary buff to a minor trait on an already dominant spec and probably a mistake. They did not get 25 stacks of might for as long as we did, but they didn’t need it because they had all the runes and sigils and traitlines that we wish we had. Their speed of clone creation with mirror images gave them enough might stacks to one shot everyone with a shatter. The difference is so massive that the comparison outside of the minor relation to might stacking is just asinine.

5. You get (almost) a minute of might with ONLY elixir B or on toss elixir B with a 1/4 chance. Don’t read the tooltip and think that all might stacks you’re getting are a full minute. 1.9 times 20 is 38 seconds. THat goes for the sigil of battle and HGH. It’s not a full minute.

6. AoE condi clears in the form of guardians, eles and (sometimes) rangers are prevalent. The fact that you don’t that they are means you really don’t know what you’re talking about. The build with a rabid amulet just attempts to outlive those condi clears.

7. Again, you talk about engis sitting on ledges where they’re not supposed to me. Good luck getting burning on anything on that point. You aren’t killing jack kitten that wasn’t already did sitting on a ledge the entire fight.

8. We get 2000 power with rabid ammy and 25 stacks of might. A backstab theif will take a WHOPPING 2k damage in retal if we sit there and eat his backstab combo and auto attacks.

Dude, Just please stop. I’m begging you. The hyberbole and misinformation in your posts is getting really really out of hand.

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

Ok. I’m gonna call bullkitten yet again.

He seriously argues that a HGH engi is survivable and that a mesmer dies to a sneeze… O.o

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

WALL OF TEXT (Can play that game too)

I am not talking about playing hot join I am talking about this builds ability to completely turn a fight around with little to no effort IN TOURNEYS…. This build nukes mid point easily from a ledge and well chances are they aren’t gonna notice you lobbing grenades from up on the ledge and if you can get 16 stacks before entering a fight all you have to do is drink one more elixir (keeping in mind elixir B gives 3 stacks of might under HGH) and do one weap swap when the fight starts and then 10 seconds later and bam 25 stacks…
Yes this build is way more survivable then a Mesmer going for the same type of damage it has 6 condition clears. Like it or not that is a godsend when compared to mesmers….it can apply a bleed every 4 seconds that lasts twice as 4 times as long as the cooldown. Also everything here except grenade 1 applies conditions and that even has a chance to apply burning… So once again… A guard and an ele on a point do not have enough condition clear…. People have griped that when a team has 3 or 4 of one profession that is a sign that is something is wrong well the majority of the teams we faced had at least 2 of this biuld… And when I was on my bunker guard with runes of melandru (-25% condi duration) and full healing shout with my bunker ele friend we still did not have enough condition clear… Add this in with the insane might stacks and the small minor trait that increases damage by 1% per boon which doesn’t seem like much but when you have a full uptime on boons then it helps out… This build is by no means hard to play I picked it up and was nuking points helping my team within the first minute of a match…. Don’t try and defend something that is broken by saying “Well we don’t have any other options” If you really feel that way scream for meaningful buffs because this build needs nerfed…..

miriforst.1290:

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

Ok. I’m gonna call bullkitten yet again.

He seriously argues that a HGH engi is survivable and that a mesmer dies to a sneeze… O.o

how many conditions clears does this build have? 6? How many does a shatter mes have? 0? 1? that’s about it….

jportell.2197:

miriforst.1290:

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

Ok. I’m gonna call bullkitten yet again.

He seriously argues that a HGH engi is survivable and that a mesmer dies to a sneeze… O.o

how many conditions clears does this build have? 6? How many does a shatter mes have? 0? 1? that’s about it….

that would be 6 single-condition cleanses.

if you’re not building with a condition cleanse that’s your problem.
if your class doesn’t have viable condition cleansing, then that’s your class’s problem

using your shortcomings as a reason to nerf something else is pretty ridiculous

hackks.3687:

jportell.2197:

miriforst.1290:

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

Ok. I’m gonna call bullkitten yet again.

He seriously argues that a HGH engi is survivable and that a mesmer dies to a sneeze… O.o

how many conditions clears does this build have? 6? How many does a shatter mes have? 0? 1? that’s about it….

that would be 6 single-condition cleanses.

if you’re not building with a condition cleanse that’s your problem.
if your class doesn’t have viable condition cleansing, then that’s your class’s problem

using your shortcomings as a reason to nerf something else is pretty ridiculous

Not calling for a nerf based off just that… and yes its six single condition cleanses not to mention the chance to turn an incoming condition into a boon (they should just make it convert an incoming condition to a boon 20 sec CD) and remove RNG from the whole process…. There are other strong engineer builds out there TBH I wish they would buff confusion in PvP then more of you guys might use bomb kit or tool kit… And its not just the condition cleanses that makes this build strong elixirs currently give strong boons and cleanse conditions and heal (H) Mesmer heals just… Well heals… We have mirror but the healing sucks and the duration of the reflect isn’t worth it… Currently this build does more AOE damage through conditions while being survivable more so than a Mesmer because shatter mes will have minimal to no toughness because getting that would mean sacrificing so much power that they just become taxis between points and no condition cleanse. You also have supply crate which outshines timewarp now since quickness was neutered and mass invis is cool for 5 seconds…. Builds that do too many things at once are what is considered Overpowered… This build does to many things at once.

jportell.2197:

hackks.3687:

jportell.2197:

miriforst.1290:

Ostricheggs.3742:

jportell.2197:

WALL OF TEXT

Ok. I’m gonna call bullkitten yet again.

He seriously argues that a HGH engi is survivable and that a mesmer dies to a sneeze… O.o

how many conditions clears does this build have? 6? How many does a shatter mes have? 0? 1? that’s about it….

that would be 6 single-condition cleanses.

if you’re not building with a condition cleanse that’s your problem.
if your class doesn’t have viable condition cleansing, then that’s your class’s problem

using your shortcomings as a reason to nerf something else is pretty ridiculous

Not calling for a nerf based off just that… and yes its six single condition cleanses not to mention the chance to turn an incoming condition into a boon (they should just make it convert an incoming condition to a boon 20 sec CD) and remove RNG from the whole process…. There are other strong engineer builds out there TBH I wish they would buff confusion in PvP then more of you guys might use bomb kit or tool kit… And its not just the condition cleanses that makes this build strong elixirs currently give strong boons and cleanse conditions and heal (H) Mesmer heals just… Well heals… We have mirror but the healing sucks and the duration of the reflect isn’t worth it… Currently this build does more AOE damage through conditions while being survivable more so than a Mesmer because shatter mes will have minimal to no toughness because getting that would mean sacrificing so much power that they just become taxis between points and no condition cleanse. You also have supply crate which outshines timewarp now since quickness was neutered and mass invis is cool for 5 seconds…. Builds that do too many things at once are what is considered Overpowered… This build does to many things at once.

doing too much what? they can’t bunker. they can’t carry. all they can do is roam and spew conditions. you must have them confused with Ele’s. It’s fairly common, the class icons look surprisingly similar on the scoreboard

And what? More survivability than a Mesmer? That’s just wrong. And why are you comparing an HGH-condi build to a shatter mesmer in terms of aoe condition output? That’s like comparing Apples and… Fish. Just no where near belonging in the same conversation. Your argument here adds up to nothing more than “if mesmer can’t do it, then it should be nerfed”. I don’t even know why you’re comparing elites.

I really don’t understand how you can call HGH-condis OP by comparing it to an easy mode, face-roll shatter build – a build that just so happens to have a rather solid counter to HGH, a la Shattered Concentration, and it’s innate burst which always has an edge against condi/attrition builds – unless you’re just getting outplayed, as is the case in most of these QQ posts and the crux of the entire HGH-condi build.

You’re just grasping at straws here, my friend. The only problem is, like most everyone else QQing about it, you have only an inkling of an idea, of what you are up against and thusly no idea how to fight it. Which gives the Engi (the good ones at least) a big advantage, since they already know exactly what you and most everyone else is doing.

Lol yeah. Some icons look similar. Reminds me of an enemy team with 2 mesmer 2 warrior where someone said “Omg 4 mesmer”.

I’ve been playing a lot of HGH Engineer lately and to be honest it is really strong.

However, it is the perfect example of how average damage/survivability should feel!

With all the crazy sustain and boon builds around it is very frustrating to play most classes/builds who can’t even get them below half hp, no wonder this build is popular!
If only Anet would nerf Ele/Gaurdian’s boon sharing we’d see more build variety to teamfight with.