Guild Wars 2

Burtnik.5218:

I start to wonder how many will actually manage to get up to legendary..most likely we will be able to count them on fingers. SoloQ peeps will never reach it in current state.

All 5 man premades.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

Jesus!! This system is just becoming a complete clusterkitten.

morrolan.9608:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

Jesus!! This system is just becoming a complete clusterkitten.

The new PvP league is really frustrating and the leader board hasnt been updating with this and no Guild vs Guild leader board on the leader board page.

kdaddy.5431:

morrolan.9608:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

Jesus!! This system is just becoming a complete clusterkitten.

The new PvP league is really frustrating and the leader board hasnt been updating with this and no Guild vs Guild leader board on the leader board page.

The leaderboards are another complete infrastructure failure from ANet.

I can’t for the life of me fathom how they can make such an amazing combat system in the game (basically the best combat system out of ALL MMOs) and yet fail so hilariously AGAIN AND AGAIN with BASIC infrastructure for pvp needs.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

Same thing happened to me 5min after i laughed at him, was solo and ofc all other internet stuff worked.

Teutos.8620:

From my POV it looks like, that everyone with a 50% win rate will end up on the top. No matter if he plays with at a low or a high mmr.

I’m not finding that to be the case. My overall winrate is around 60% and in the first day of leagues I had 4 good games and 11 unwinnable disasters. I mean jesus anet I know I’m a literal god and the best necro NA, or least matchmaking seems to think so, but not even I can win a match when I’m fighting 1v3 on mid for over a minute and a half and my team somehow manages to lose home and far. Over half of the games I played yesterday ran out like that.

That’s disappointing. Helseth was saying what needed to be said. Just look at these GW2 streamers and it’s easy to see the garbage Anet made of pvp. Literally farming off of solo/duo queuers.

Laserbolt.6731:

“But the real question is, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?”

Could you say this in another way? What did you mean?

They don’t think it be like it is, but it do.

Velimere.7685:

Laserbolt.6731:

“But the real question is, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?”

Could you say this in another way? What did you mean?

They don’t think it be like it is, but it do.

Can you help us understand what he’s saying?
Tbh, I don’t get. My english is bad though…

Cmon guys its balanced, you win 1 game and then you need to carry 4 other ppl to victory because they don’t even know how to focus 1 target.

This Rated is balanced like revenant + few others

It’s probably too early to draw conclusions.
I mean, divisions could hold a lot more weight than MMR for both the matchmaking and the amount of pips a player wins/loses from a match, which could eventually make leagues to resemble something close to a MMR ladder.

What’s definitely clear is that the system looks like an insane grind.
Even if a top team could count every match as a win, it will need over 100 matches to reach legendary league, which is where it belongs and where it must be for the system to work properly (and that’s assuming my first pharagaraph is true, when is probably no more than a delusional wish).
For more mundane players/teams, which will start losing pips and tiers more sooner than later, the grind would last for A LOT longer, moreso if top teams are not willing to devote themselves to that grind (which is not unlikely at all).

On the other hand, if MMR remains the driven force for matchmaking and “odds of winning” calculations, then the system is a complete nonsense.
Once the MMR is settled again (which shouldn’t take too long looking at the number of games that must be won to climb leagues), anyone but the top teams that can pull a really solid winrate could have serious problems to get past the third or fourth divison (since the system would try to balance the odds of wiining at 50%)
Even if the system is similar to what we saw on previous iterations, where a win would always award one pip while a somewhat close lose would have no negative effect, the grind we are looking at will still remain totally crazy, up to a point where, as happened before, time investment becomes far more important than skill.
In fact, it might easily be even worse. Since it doesn’t look like players can lose division status (just pips and tiers inside their current division), it could be possible (and probably better grind wise) to tank down MMR at the very beginning of every division and then, once the rating is low enough, strike back with a full premade.

In any case, even if we are talking about a team based game, this obsession with designing systems to favour full premades needs to stop.
We already have an ESL Pro League, which is the most competitive scene and what I guess holds most of the atention for the top teams.
Now we also have a Guild Challenger Cup, allowing any team to compete on a public ELO based leaderboard, which seems to be a much better skill indicator than leagues for any comparision.
Was really necessary to make the league system also completely dominated by premades and leave, once again, all those solo/duo/partial queuers (which I guess are A LOT) with no system to provide them even an illusion of fair competition?

From what I understand he’s angry about losing fights with pugs, the problem is not actually the league system, but the skills of the players.

So I think the system is good, although it could fall tier, division and lose points from Emerald

I play with my ranger and pugs and I see that the issue is not the system but the players who do not know how to play PvP.

It can be top 3, I do not care for it, he can find the bad system, but for me it is good, although it could be better.

That’s What do I mean last time

Chaithh also thinks the leagues are not good and that they are completely unfriendly towads solo-players or small teams.
He said that they (Abjured) keep farming pugs because they don’t get placed against other teams.

He also lost 1 pip for winning 4vs5.

Rap Tiger.1257:

From what I understand he’s angry about losing fights with pugs, the problem is not actually the league system, but the skills of the players.

So I think the system is good, although it could fall tier, division and lose points from Emerald

I play with my ranger and pugs and I see that the issue is not the system but the players who do not know how to play PvP.

It can be top 3, I do not care for it, he can find the bad system, but for me it is good, although it could be better.

That’s What do I mean last time

The real problem I see with the system is that you can still be placed with bad teammates, do everything right and still lose. I was really excited about tiers, but these aren’t tiers. The current system is the same old grind they created a year ago with a fancy UI.

Rap Tiger.1257:

From what I understand he’s angry about losing fights with pugs, the problem is not actually the league system, but the skills of the players.

He was angry about duoquing and being matched to a full Orange Logo 5 man premade. Then angry about winning but losing 2 pips.

Anet = so epic fail.

LOL.

Who’s this Lord Helseth?

Soa Cirri.6012:

Pimsley.3681:

Rap Tiger.1257:

He is angry because just picked it up and took a bad team perhaps? The alloy system is not bad, the problem is that there are bad players and some casual calls that are also bad, but I thought fantastic system idea, should fall division also only the best players rise because stand not play with my ranger and view map 3 players fighting one of the opposing team, stop complaining the whole game, it is hard to complain, just want things the easy way? Is in PVE then do not care if that player is top 3, I think some GW2 players is more to play Hello Kitty than PVP when I complaint at all

?

But the real question is, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Stay away from drugs kids

Zetsumei.4975:

Soa Cirri.6012:

Pimsley.3681:

Rap Tiger.1257:

He is angry because just picked it up and took a bad team perhaps? The alloy system is not bad, the problem is that there are bad players and some casual calls that are also bad, but I thought fantastic system idea, should fall division also only the best players rise because stand not play with my ranger and view map 3 players fighting one of the opposing team, stop complaining the whole game, it is hard to complain, just want things the easy way? Is in PVE then do not care if that player is top 3, I think some GW2 players is more to play Hello Kitty than PVP when I complaint at all

?

But the real question is, has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Stay away from drugs kids

lol kid…… da kitten you saying?

Lose 2 pips while winning.
http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/28022083
He done.

Leohart.4610:

Who’s this Lord Helseth?

Team Captain of The Civilised Gentlemen – a consistently top tier PvP team – and an incredibly experienced mesmer player.

he’s also a very competitive-oriented player, sticking to PvP almost exclusively.

(feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here)

video removed by user
:\

Hammerguard.9834:

This is why helseth is so awesome. He’s able to identify the problem and call it out exactly how it should be.

Like the time he posted a 45 minute video after torment was added to Mesmer scepter AA, and he heralded in the DOOM AA torment mesmer meta that was to follow with its passive clone mindless cheese spam play?

Guess you’re still waiting for that one to land.

Rant enough though and I suppose you’ll hit something.

Coming back to the point. Disguising the old MMR with the cute UI is really cheap & lazy. Arena Net should not have done this outta of respect to there loyal costumers. I mean, even when they presented it. They presented it as a brand new mmr system with a more visual UI. That’s misleading & taking costumers for granted. In the end, it don’t matter what Helseth ranted about. Yes, he was right. & it’s sad that Anet taking us for a ride. I mean really? Did they think this would go unnoticed?

Tobias.8632:

Teutos.8620:

From my POV it looks like, that everyone with a 50% win rate will end up on the top. No matter if he plays with at a low or a high mmr.

I’m not finding that to be the case. My overall winrate is around 60% and in the first day of leagues I had 4 good games and 11 unwinnable disasters. I mean jesus anet I know I’m a literal god and the best necro NA, or least matchmaking seems to think so, but not even I can win a match when I’m fighting 1v3 on mid for over a minute and a half and my team somehow manages to lose home and far. Over half of the games I played yesterday ran out like that.

This is pretty much my experience too, though I have closer to 50% winrate. Most of my games were unwinnable from the start because my team consisted of clearly lower skilled players with bad builds. There was nothing I could have done in half of the games: These players do not communicate, they don’t look at the minimap, they don’t have /team on or they refuse to listen. Or they play a P/P thief which is pretty much a waste of space, eurgh.

When I did win it was against clearly very low skilled players though I’m pretty sure each bad team had one decent player in it. Is the point of the leagues to carry low skilled players with bad builds? I can only imagine how bad the games are for someone with a higher than 50% winrate if this is how bad they are for me.

Maris.3164:

Tobias.8632:

Teutos.8620:

From my POV it looks like, that everyone with a 50% win rate will end up on the top. No matter if he plays with at a low or a high mmr.

I’m not finding that to be the case. My overall winrate is around 60% and in the first day of leagues I had 4 good games and 11 unwinnable disasters. I mean jesus anet I know I’m a literal god and the best necro NA, or least matchmaking seems to think so, but not even I can win a match when I’m fighting 1v3 on mid for over a minute and a half and my team somehow manages to lose home and far. Over half of the games I played yesterday ran out like that.

This is pretty much my experience too, though I have closer to 50% winrate. Most of my games were unwinnable from the start because my team consisted of clearly lower skilled players with bad builds. There was nothing I could have done in half of the games: These players do not communicate, they don’t look at the minimap, they don’t have /team on or they refuse to listen. Or they play a P/P thief which is pretty much a waste of space, eurgh.

When I did win it was against clearly very low skilled players though I’m pretty sure each bad team had one decent player in it. Is the point of the leagues to carry low skilled players with bad builds? I can only imagine how bad the games are for someone with a higher than 50% winrate if this is how bad they are for me.

its pretty bad, usually its a team of baby seals and 1 experienced player vs another team with the same skill levels. My first few games i felt like beating on children and im playing thief lol.

and yeah it seems like a lot of ppl don’t know the basics of conquest style maps…

Farmers will be near the top for a while, until better teams come to replace them.

It’s true the league system favours teams, but that’s probably what ANet is going for. You can’t exactly recruit solo guys into your esports league, so … they’re not going to be and are not supposed to be at the top. Solo players will be in the middle or high middle at most.

Now, the system would be a lot better if your placement within the league system corresponded to your MMR… I mean, I understand that ANet wants casuals, noobs, and bads to be able to progress in leagues, but perhaps that shouldn’t be a goal.

It seems currently in matchmaking there is too little weight on deviation from team avg. MMR. Resulting comps like: 10-10-12-8-10 v.s 30-10-1-5-4

Both have avg mmr 10 but the second team would have hard time if the “30” mmr couldn’t carry the team. What if the single high mmr player was a war/thief for example?

That will be fun in january:

“And competing for the 4 spots in pro-league are guild-league rank 7,12,15 and 21.”

Really wondering how many teams in the top 20 have no pro-league player in it. I mean it will never concerrn me, I’m just mediocore scrub, but it is funny to watch.

Vieteriukko.6075:

It seems currently in matchmaking there is too little weight on deviation from team avg. MMR. Resulting comps like: 10-10-12-8-10 v.s 30-10-1-5-4

Both have avg mmr 10 but the second team would have hard time if the “30” mmr couldn’t carry the team. What if the single high mmr player was a war/thief for example?

thats why they should balance their game, yes
some people play thief/war no matter how underpowered it is.

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

I wouldn’t believe it if I didn’t see it happen.
Proof

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

kdaddy.5431:

morrolan.9608:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

Jesus!! This system is just becoming a complete clusterkitten.

The new PvP league is really frustrating and the leader board hasnt been updating with this and no Guild vs Guild leader board on the leader board page.

The leaderboards are another complete infrastructure failure from ANet.

I can’t for the life of me fathom how they can make such an amazing combat system in the game (basically the best combat system out of ALL MMOs) and yet fail so hilariously AGAIN AND AGAIN with BASIC infrastructure for pvp needs.

I agree 100%

GW2 has the best PvP in any MMO period but Anet is god awful and creating fun. So many of the stuff they bring in are farming situations. I mean when people run into Premade ESL teams and they lose a PIP/TIER they have to be sitting there going

“Im still in starting division”

I understand anet doesnt want to hand players rewards but helseth on the video posted loses a Pip against a 5 man premade who competes at ESL skill level.

The leader board seriously is the biggest joke ive ever seen. Its like they quit since they didnt want to try anymore. I seriously dont see the top returning players from the Old leader board and solo que boards since anet only create grind leagues.

Helseth has also lost 2 pips against orange’s full roster while duoqueing. (orng won)
What about creating soloque, arenanet?

Vieux P.1238:

Coming back to the point. Disguising the old MMR with the cute UI is really cheap & lazy. Arena Net should not have done this outta of respect to there loyal costumers. I mean, even when they presented it. They presented it as a brand new mmr system with a more visual UI. That’s misleading & taking costumers for granted. In the end, it don’t matter what Helseth ranted about. Yes, he was right. & it’s sad that Anet taking us for a ride. I mean really? Did they think this would go unnoticed?

Except that this is not what they did…

The problem that Helseth is highlighting is that the old MMR system and the new “Pips” system are both in the game, and both affect matchmaking, which causes a problem for highly ranked players in the old system.

right now you have a hidden internal MMR and a visible league ranking. A player like helseth who is probably one of the highest ranked players EU might be a low/mid emerald, while a player who is almost totally new to PvP can also be low/mid emerald, but they won’t get matched together. This gives the high ranked player a disadvantage because he has to win much harder games to gain pips, while the low ranked player can farm them fairly easily.

Kicker.8203:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

I wouldn’t believe it if I didn’t see it happen.
Proof

Kicker.8203:

Helseth has also lost 2 pips against orange’s full roster while duoqueing.
What about creating soloque, arenanet?

It’s a FEATURE!

Helseth’s reaction is priceless.

Guys, it seems a lot of you still have fundamental problems to understand how the match making and based on that, the league system is currently working.

Tobias.8632:

My overall winrate is around 60%

Let’s get back to some basics. For better understanding, let’s borrow some mmr-numbers from wow since our mmr-numbers are hidden.

After each individual match you play, the system will adjust your mmr-number. Let’s say you are an ok-ish player so the system will rank you with the mmr-number “1500”. A good player will have 2000 and a top esl player 2300.

In each individual match the system will let you 1500-player fight with other 1500-players and against other 1500-players. If the system works correct and everyone of the player has really the skill of 1500, your win chance is 50%.

You goal is to improve yourself. “I am not a 1500 player, I am a 1550 player!” If that is correct, you will win the match, and the system will further rank you at 1550. Everytime you are proving that the system ranked you too low, you are increasing your win rate.

NOW you are facing 1550 opponents. If that is true, you will 50% of every match you play at the 1550 level.

This is where the “50%-win-rate-effect” comes from. The system is trying to find suitable opponents for you. It takes some time till the system find the right spot for you, or maybe you are improving every time (while your opponents do not) that you have a win rate over 50% for that time till the system manages to find suitable matches for you.

Now to your current situation: Pre Hot you managed to play at skill level 1750, therefore the system placed you against 1750 opponents. Seems your skill level is far lower OR the level of the opponents is far higher, than the system has placed them. => your win rate is not 50% till it finds suitable opponents for you. Then you will go back to about 50%.

BTT: As long as the amount of pips you gain, is not effected by your mmr, the system is broken.
You are fighting against opponents of about your own mmr. Your current position in the league system is completely irrelevant. You will always fight for a pip.
A high mmr player will face high mmr opponents, he still fights for the same pip as an low mmr player facing a low mmr opponent.

Teutos.8620:

Snip

You’re talking like you worked for anet.

gin.7158:

Teutos.8620:

Snip

You’re talking like you worked for anet.

Reading must be sooo hard.

Tl.dr.: the league system is broken. Why? See my post above (or in other threads).

PvP is trash atm. Do yourselves a favor and don’t participate. If ANET sees participation go down, they can’t sit there and pretend like everything is fine and dandy.

BunkerWars2 is kitten.
Revenant is braindead and broken.

Chip Skylark.2367:

If ANET sees participation go down, they can’t sit there and pretend like everything is fine and dandy.

They might see that as a challenge /kappa

Starfall.6425:

Chip Skylark.2367:

If ANET sees participation go down, they can’t sit there and pretend like everything is fine and dandy.

They might see that as a challenge /kappa

Knowing how stubborn Anet is… that’s quiet possible x)

>_>

What matters now is: the PvP Guild Chalenger League
(forming a team via the guild panel and )

The Pip model is an illision to the ppl that refuses to create teams an ‘’AIM TO WIN’’ so they can they can get the icon + tickets
Solo players dont need to have high ELO MMR and rewarded with the Backpiece at the end of the season like other games .
Solo players dont have to create a team so they have those rewards like other games .
Solo players dont get penaltized if there was a chance for ‘’Ranked Solo’’ , where they couldnt control the actions of their team8s (trolling-afking- cursing if some1 took their kill) and and aty the end not reaching 2200 MMR to unlock the PvP Shoulders …

At the end of the season , the Leaderboards will be renwed (for prestige) and i hope at a livestream then , ppl to think again the :‘’we must buff up things to see something new in the meta’’ , or some1 once more to ‘’hard push them’’ , even he get banned again….

Kicker.8203:

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

Their “balance patch” = constantly nerfing ranger/Druid. Period.

Yes, we got “balanced” for 6 times. 6 nerfs to Druid/ Ranger in under a month.

People warned them of all of these issues long before release; the general mixed queue concerns alongside no separation of individual and team league progression, the punishment of players with higher mmr if there is mixed queues and matchmaking that isn’t primarily based off of division, mmr tanking if there is no division dropping… What were they expecting? Were none of these issues not obvious?

Why can’t we just have solid infrastructure for once

Kicker.8203:

SchmendrickTheMagician.8247:

Helseth just lost 2 pips for winning a game on his stream (because they had a player DC and won 4v5). LOL.

I wouldn’t believe it if I didn’t see it happen.
Proof

Hey anet where is the dumb patch for this?

Seriously why are you punishing players for that? Also i would love a explanation of why some matches we get 2 pips and others 1. Also why we are losing PIPs if the matches are close.

Reward players for playing a match out and at least attempting to come back. Like if any teams scores over 400 pts they dont lose a pip.

SERIOUSLY ANET DO SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR PVP LEAGUE

Helseth keepin it real.

Such an animated guy. That expression when he lost 2 pips was epic. Hope anet gets this mess of a pvp fixed.

elo matchmaking guis its gonna b gret

This looks like a thrown game but they were really trying to contest points

Sampo.9678:

Lose 2 pips while winning.
http://www.twitch.tv/thelordhelseth/v/28022083
He done.

HAHA. Wow.

That is silent rage. The ultimate rage. The “there is no way” level rage. The rage that burns empires to the ground.

Anet, lord you kittened up.

The video made me realize about something off topic – NA doesn’t have an admired pvp personality like EU does with Helseth.

Folks with no sense of humor may dislike him but that guy is one charming mofo.