Guild Wars 2

Sensotix.4106:

I really tried to stay as objective as possible but then again this post gets ruined by pve and wvw people.. :/ it’s sad
some actually provided nice feedback and suggestions but they also got destroyed by pve and wvw guys

The sPvP minigame, yes that’s what it is and will remain so until it has more than just conquest mode, forums are the only place where Devs will engage on balance discussion. That’s a serious elitist chip you have on your shoulder and you should take note that Mesmers, now that Warriors have helped calm the condi spam meta, are just as powerful, perhaps a little to much I think.

The discussion on balance that occurs in these forums affects players of WvW and Spvp, to some extent PvE but not as much. Everybody is entitled to discuss and express their opinion here, because there is certainly no Devs paying any attention over in the WvW forum.

Aria.5940:

With warriors, apart from healing signet, the stability uptime also seems a bit too much. In my experience, if I go full dps, I need enough CC to keep the warrior from hitting me too much, but with the uptime of stability it’s hard to actually find a window of opportunity.

10 secs of stability on a 48-60 second cooldown? Most warriors only take one

Mrbig.8019:

ahuba.6430:

this thread is now about the 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build

Even a 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build would never be as OP as any warrior build.

Serious.

+1. I am mystified why no one else pointed this out way earlier, but better late, than never, I guess
Off to work again … hope the balance gets better by the time I have time again in my life.

Ashanor.5319:

Except, warrior isn’t overpowered. That is simply YOUR opinion. Warriors have proved over and over that healing signer is fine, its just that all the nerd mongers cover their ears and keep screaming for nerds. They won’t be satisfied until warrior is a free kill. They have the same hate for thief, it will be back whenever warriors are rendered useless.

I’m not saying that warrior should be a free kill,i’m saying that warrior should be balanced.
MY OPINION is that healing signet should be nerfed a bit and be like the signet of restoration for elementalist, when you attack the signet heals you(risk vs reward).
400hp/s for doing NOTHING with berserker stats is simply OP,do you understand?

Arganthium.5638:

Also, I just checked out distortion in-game, and, as expected, it doesn’t go through condi damage; any condis on me during Distortion continued to do damage, although I’m not quite so sure about the fear shenanigans you mentioned.

No invul has stopped condition damage until the introduction of the new heals, neither will Berserker Stance. How can you not know this?

As for Illusionary Invigoration… don’t know that I’ve ever seen a build that used the trait. Undoubtedly, there are more effective ways to survive at <50% health (if nothing else, with Desperate Decoy) that don’t require you to sacrifice all of your clones, which tend to be your main offensive and defensive tools anyways (which, by the way, is another reason why Distortion isn’t as great as you make it out to be- you sacrifice damage output in the form of phantasms, dying illusions, and illusion crits for a few seconds of invuln). Taking IllVig also keeps you from taking some other very good options which tend to be preferable.

You don’t seem to be too familiar with the Mesmer. Having all of your shatter skills up and ready on a 60s ICD is quite powerful. It’s between Elasticity and Invigoration now and even in a GS/Staff setup both are pretty much equal when considering how much Mesmers complain about S/D thieves. Any other weapon setup and, Invigoration is the only choice.

Even only 10s every minute is high in stability, but seen warriors with higher stability uptime than that as well. As far as I know they have 3 separate skills for stability + trait options for extra stability.
This means they reliably have stability up for most fights and in combination with beserker stance, there’s very little chance to use any cc on the warrior. 10s in a fight is a very long time for a glass spec and without glass, you’re back to the healing signet issue.

Ashanor.5319:

Except, warrior isn’t overpowered. That is simply YOUR opinion. Warriors have proved over and over that healing signer is fine, its just that all the nerd mongers cover their ears and keep screaming for nerds. They won’t be satisfied until warrior is a free kill. They have the same hate for thief, it will be back whenever warriors are rendered useless.

In case you missed the note: You are biased as well, and the bolded is your opinion. Your claims can be countered just as easily, and prejudices can go both ways. I wonder how you distinguish who the “they” you happily refer to are.

Insanity.5174:

Ashanor.5319:

Except, warrior isn’t overpowered. That is simply YOUR opinion. Warriors have proved over and over that healing signer is fine, its just that all the nerd mongers cover their ears and keep screaming for nerds. They won’t be satisfied until warrior is a free kill. They have the same hate for thief, it will be back whenever warriors are rendered useless.

I’m not saying that warrior should be a free kill,i’m saying that warrior should be balanced.
MY OPINION is that healing signet should be nerfed a bit and be like the signet of restoration for elementalist, when you attack the signet heals you(risk vs reward).
400hp/s for doing NOTHING with berserker stats is simply OP,do you understand?

Guess what.. if you use healing signet with zerker gear YOU ARE a free kill. Come on now. Are you really that bad? I killed a zerker hambow the other day and he didn’t land a single cc on me and only did about 2k damage total, if even that much.
This is a pretty regular occurance when fighting them.

Poxxia.1547:

Ashanor.5319:

Except, warrior isn’t overpowered. That is simply YOUR opinion. Warriors have proved over and over that healing signer is fine, its just that all the nerd mongers cover their ears and keep screaming for nerds. They won’t be satisfied until warrior is a free kill. They have the same hate for thief, it will be back whenever warriors are rendered useless.

In case you missed the note: You are biased as well, and the bolded is your opinion. Your claims can be countered just as easily, and prejudices can go both ways. I wonder how you distinguish who the “they” you happily refer to are.

Not biased at all. I play many classes. Although admittedly I prefer melee classes. That doesn’t make me biased. I can kill as a war and I can kill other wars, regardless of the class I am playing.

ITT: bad players defend easy mode specs while calling other classes they don’t play OP.

Slim.3024:

Arganthium.5638:

Also, I just checked out distortion in-game, and, as expected, it doesn’t go through condi damage; any condis on me during Distortion continued to do damage, although I’m not quite so sure about the fear shenanigans you mentioned.

No invul has stopped condition damage until the introduction of the new heals, neither will Berserker Stance. How can you not know this?

Hmm. I knew this, but I had to be sure, especially after seeing

Slim.3024:

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

But continuing…

Slim.3024:

As for Illusionary Invigoration… don’t know that I’ve ever seen a build that used the trait. Undoubtedly, there are more effective ways to survive at <50% health (if nothing else, with Desperate Decoy) that don’t require you to sacrifice all of your clones, which tend to be your main offensive and defensive tools anyways (which, by the way, is another reason why Distortion isn’t as great as you make it out to be- you sacrifice damage output in the form of phantasms, dying illusions, and illusion crits for a few seconds of invuln). Taking IllVig also keeps you from taking some other very good options which tend to be preferable.

You don’t seem to be too familiar with the Mesmer. Having all of your shatter skills up and ready on a 60s ICD is quite powerful. It’s between Elasticity and Invigoration now and even in a GS/Staff setup both are pretty much equal when considering how much Mesmers complain about S/D thieves. Any other weapon setup and, Invigoration is the only choice.

Actually, Mesmer is my second most played class, behind- ironically- S/D thief. While I don’t doubt that having all of your shatters up is useful, that doesn’t mean that every mesmer gets 8 seconds invuln back-to-back (which, by the way, is something I don’t think I’ve ever seen happen). There are other trait choices as well, by the way- specifically, I, II, and the III traits are each very good in their own ways. And, of course, all of this is neglecting the aforementioned sacrifice of defensive and offensive abilities granted by illusions. There’s a reason why Phanta mesmers don’t shatter their clones unless absolutely necessary, and, to some extent, that type of mindset is necessary to play any sort of mesmer, as all shatter skills require a sacrifice.

EDIT: also, it’s been… At least 4 months since I’ve heard any complaints from respectable mesmers about S/D being too powerful.

clint.5681:

No one said distortion cleared conditions, just like zerker stance doesnt clear conditions.

Nor did I say anything about clearing condis. What I was referring to was

Slim.3024:

…Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

A correction: Healing signet does have risk. You sacrifice burst healing, and if you do use the signet out of desperation, you lose the passive regen for the next 16-20 seconds.

Also, you don’t get the 25% speed increase with bow, and as most warriors spend a lot of time with bow, it’s really not that great a talent.

I personally use the Arms II trait which gives me infinite swiftness when combined with signet.

TGH.7630:

A correction: Healing signet does have risk. You sacrifice burst healing, and if you do use the signet out of desperation, you lose the passive regen for the next 16-20 seconds.

Also, you don’t get the 25% speed increase with bow, and as most warriors spend a lot of time with bow, it’s really not that great a talent.

I personally use the Arms II trait which gives me infinite swiftness when combined with signet.

That risk tends to be very small when the various stances are taken into account (all of them- excluding the healing one, since we’re talking about using HS here- are good against burst in some form or another). You can simply pop invlun and then not have to worry for much more of the fight. Furthermore, with your very high base health (8k more than thieves, guards, etc) and heavy armor (14% damage reduction over light, 7% over medium), the supposed “risk” is fairly negligible. Also, remember that burst builds, should they want to heal, will generally need to use a cast time in order to do so, which is an extremely dangerous thing to have to do in the middle of a fight when you’re so squishy.

However, not all warriors use hambow/triple stance.

Do you feel they are OP too?

However, Healing Surge might be better if battles were much faster than what they are:

sure, if the fight last 15 seconds, and you have surge out of cd, it has much more hps than signet.

But the meta is full of attrition builds, and in attrition signet is better. And is much stronger with defensive setups. And most warriors go highly defensive now, thanks to hammer.

I repeat: IMHO the state of the warrior goes along with the state of the meta. And now both are kinda messy.

However, one reason why warriors are the most played class might be because they actually have an interesting fighting style. With a GS, for example, movement is integrated in doing damage. It’s a very dinamic and fun weapon. Other than that, warriors are very popular in pve when racing through dungeons is needed.

Warriors started as the “easy to learn, hard to master class”, maybe capable of keeping together both the casual and hardcore sides ofthe game and, most important, turning casuals into something more. Warriors used to be wonderfully designed, even if subpar (pre-june).

@To all those defending warriors: for the past few days I’ve been playing both solo queue and team queue almost constantly, and here are my findings:
1) there was not a single match where there wouldn’t be present at least one warrior. Not a single match.
2) team queue suffered from warrior stacking much more significantly than solo queue. At least half of the teams I have faced had 2 or more (usually even 3) warriors. While beating teams with less warriors normally, I have rarely, if ever, won a match against a team with 3 warriors. It was not a matter of having bad team composition against warriors, since I played with different people on different classes. The only counter-composition was playing warriors ourselves.
3) Not even having champion legionnaire title (something basic for pvp players), I have achieved the highest win/loss ratio with my warrior that only ties for the first place with spirit ranger.

No other class in this game has access to such superior combination of mechanics like warriors do at this moment. Free access to CC, damage, sustain, mobility, AoE pressure, single target pressure, hybrid type damage ect. makes warriors vastly overpowered compared to any other spec in this game.

My ideas for fixes:

1) Make healing signet more “similar” to the new signet of ether that mesmers have received. It would by achieved by this:
i) healing scales with adrenaline level (adrenaline spam for condi removal would mean much less healing, just like with the mesmer signet and it’s condi removal trait)
ii) healing would take place every 3 seconds (allowing for better burst impact on warriors)
iii) healing signet active would be changed to “recharge all stance skills”
iv) 40 seconds cooldown on activation (as almost every warrior takes sig cd recharge trait + active would be vastly more powerful than mesmer’s)

2) and following changes would be made to stances:
i) base duration of every stance would be gutted to 1/4 of the current duration
ii) stance activation consumes adrenaline, for ever bar of adrenaline spent you gain 1/4 extra duration (meaning 3 bars would give full duration as it is now).
iii) the numbers are ad-hoc just to demonstrate the thought process, they could be like 1/2 and for full duration adrenaline must be spent but it’s all about the thought process

does this seem familiar? yea, it’s all inspired by mesmer’s own class mechanics. With the exception that mesmers don’t get 3 separate immunities, but only one with a short duration, yet on a very long cooldown (don’t bother mentioning blurred frenzy, warriors get so much crowd control that comparing mesmer’s weapon skills with warriors’ is just dumb)

Ashanor.5319:

Poxxia.1547:

Ashanor.5319:

Except, warrior isn’t overpowered. That is simply YOUR opinion. Warriors have proved over and over that healing signer is fine, its just that all the nerd mongers cover their ears and keep screaming for nerds. They won’t be satisfied until warrior is a free kill. They have the same hate for thief, it will be back whenever warriors are rendered useless.

In case you missed the note: You are biased as well, and the bolded is your opinion. Your claims can be countered just as easily, and prejudices can go both ways. I wonder how you distinguish who the “they” you happily refer to are.

Not biased at all. I play many classes. Although admittedly I prefer melee classes. That doesn’t make me biased. I can kill as a war and I can kill other wars, regardless of the class I am playing.

If you prefer melee, then ofc you are biased. What you prefer does in most cases dictate that bias, for obvious reasons. There is no shame in that, we all are in one way or another. The above is your opinion, as you are entitled to have as anyone else is entitled to have theirs. Proof in this game is … an illusion at best imo. I could go into a discussion, where that term even makes sense, but it goes beyond the scope of this forum.

Silferas.3841:

My ideas for fixes:

1) Make healing signet more “similar” to the new signet of ether that mesmers have received. It would by achieved by this:
i) healing scales with adrenaline level (adrenaline spam for condi removal would mean much less healing, just like with the mesmer signet and it’s condi removal trait)
ii) healing would take place every 3 seconds (allowing for better burst impact on warriors)
iii) healing signet active would be changed to “recharge all stance skills”
iv) 40 seconds cooldown on activation (as almost every warrior takes sig cd recharge trait + active would be vastly more powerful than mesmer’s)

2) and following changes would be made to stances:
i) base duration of every stance would be gutted to 1/4 of the current duration
ii) stance activation consumes adrenaline, for ever bar of adrenaline spent you gain 1/4 extra duration (meaning 3 bars would give full duration as it is now).
iii) the numbers are ad-hoc just to demonstrate the thought process, they could be like 1/2 and for full duration adrenaline must be spent but it’s all about the thought process

Then our stances would go into our F2, F3 and F4?

Deal.

redslion.9675:

Silferas.3841:

My ideas for fixes:

1) Make healing signet more “similar” to the new signet of ether that mesmers have received. It would by achieved by this:
i) healing scales with adrenaline level (adrenaline spam for condi removal would mean much less healing, just like with the mesmer signet and it’s condi removal trait)
ii) healing would take place every 3 seconds (allowing for better burst impact on warriors)
iii) healing signet active would be changed to “recharge all stance skills”
iv) 40 seconds cooldown on activation (as almost every warrior takes sig cd recharge trait + active would be vastly more powerful than mesmer’s)

2) and following changes would be made to stances:
i) base duration of every stance would be gutted to 1/4 of the current duration
ii) stance activation consumes adrenaline, for ever bar of adrenaline spent you gain 1/4 extra duration (meaning 3 bars would give full duration as it is now).
iii) the numbers are ad-hoc just to demonstrate the thought process, they could be like 1/2 and for full duration adrenaline must be spent but it’s all about the thought process

Then our stances would go into our F2, F3 and F4?

Deal.

ooo would be nice if we can slot stances into F2 F3 F4 !!!

but … only a few stances? O_O

we only got 4 stances.

Balanced Stance
Berserker Stance
Endure Pain
Frenzy

then everyone packs balanced, zerrker, endure pain! O_O

Mesmers complaining about easykill warrior? This thread made my day.One in many.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

redslion.9675:

Silferas.3841:

My ideas for fixes:

1) Make healing signet more “similar” to the new signet of ether that mesmers have received. It would by achieved by this:
i) healing scales with adrenaline level (adrenaline spam for condi removal would mean much less healing, just like with the mesmer signet and it’s condi removal trait)
ii) healing would take place every 3 seconds (allowing for better burst impact on warriors)
iii) healing signet active would be changed to “recharge all stance skills”
iv) 40 seconds cooldown on activation (as almost every warrior takes sig cd recharge trait + active would be vastly more powerful than mesmer’s)

2) and following changes would be made to stances:
i) base duration of every stance would be gutted to 1/4 of the current duration
ii) stance activation consumes adrenaline, for ever bar of adrenaline spent you gain 1/4 extra duration (meaning 3 bars would give full duration as it is now).
iii) the numbers are ad-hoc just to demonstrate the thought process, they could be like 1/2 and for full duration adrenaline must be spent but it’s all about the thought process

Then our stances would go into our F2, F3 and F4?

Deal.

ooo would be nice if we can slot stances into F2 F3 F4 !!!

but … only a few stances? O_O

we only got 4 stances.

Balanced Stance
Berserker Stance
Endure Pain
Frenzy

then everyone packs balanced, zerrker, endure pain! O_O

Darn. I always forget about Frenzy.

Well, we could merge Berserker Stance and Endure Pain together, and put the whole thing on a 4s duration. How is it?

Poxxia.1547:

Mrbig.8019:

ahuba.6430:

this thread is now about the 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build

Even a 30/30/30/30/30 mesmer build would never be as OP as any warrior build.

Serious.

+1. I am mystified why no one else pointed this out way earlier, but better late, than never, I guess
Off to work again … hope the balance gets better by the time I have time again in my life.

Better bump this; seems like no one is realizing it. Oh, and officially (it seems) this is now a thread about mesmers complaining about warriors. Funny framing. This is the internet, lol.

Arganthium.5638:

Slim.3024:

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

But continuing…

No need to continue, as you were dead wrong and are trying to distract from it. For that all you need to read is the last sentence of what you quoted and by doing so you might realize that this was stated in the context of condition, CC and power attack application, rather than lingering conditions already on the mesmer:

This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

There you go. No more, no less.

LOL. Someone is kitten because their little warrior is being talked about being nerfed. Your checklist was even full of maybes and not that bads. Face it. Warrior is OP and I’d due for a nerf, check.

A lot of you seem very uninformed, you aren’t aware of the warrior 15 point talent in defense that adds a passive regenerative heal which scales with the amount of adrenaline you have.

Also, I run only 1 stance on my warrior, this being berserker. Endure pain is good, sure, but it’s over rated in drawn out fights. It’s very strong in low toughness builds because it prevents far higher effective damage. I prefer to run high toughness/regen which means it does less for me anyway. If you want it balanced so burst builds gain less from it, consider giving it a lower base duration that scales + 1 second per X (e.g. 500) toughness. I still wouldn’t use it though, as this completely removes the point of the move. It is there to allow glass cannon burst warriors with zerker pendant to run into a fight, blow their frenzy and not get downed in <3 seconds.

Slim.3024:

Arganthium.5638:

Slim.3024:

Distortion – up to 4 second immunity to condi, power and CC, which you can even have back to back for up to 8 seconds with a trait in a line that you invest 30 in anyway. This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

But continuing…

No need to continue, as you were dead wrong and are trying to distract from it. For that all you need to read is the last sentence of what you quoted and by doing so you might realize that this was stated in the context of condition, CC and power attack application, rather than lingering conditions already on the mesmer:

This is the equivalent of a warrior using Berserker Stance, Balanced Stance and Endure pain by the way.

There you go. No more, no less.

Perhaps if you considered what each of the skills do individually, and then look at that in the context of what Distortion does, you’ll see that this comparison is a mere exaggeration of the power of a single skill when a skill like Endure Pain alone does the same thing with the addition of a stunbreak. You equate Distortion with using all three at once, although that’s no different than if I equated doing 30k damage as being equal to doing 100k damage because “they both kill the opposing player”- you’re simply adding unnecessary factors. If you wanted to, you could say that it’s the equivalent of a warrior using all three stances, dodging, invuln stomping, and healing for 5.5k- it’s just that all of those additional details are superfluous and can either be done by the opposing player at the same time, are expected to be done, were not needed, or are simply manageable by using a single skill for the same effect anyways.

Adding redundant details does not make your argument any more accurate.

Lol, “Condi Pressure” is listed as longbow only? First and foremost,

MOVE OUT OF THE THE RED CIRCLES!

Second, are you still stuck on hambow? I’ve seen hambow warriors cut substantially because players are too stupid to realize the build is still viable.

Maybe you’re talking about GS/Longbow? The build that can’t hold down a capture about because about any class out there will put you through a meat grinder if you don’t use the MOBILITY that you are so jealous of.

The last honestly viable spec that isn’t bunker warrior is a Condi warrior which you clearly weren’t talking about since the condi pressure comes from the longbow… Sorry, I’m still laughing.

You obviously don’t play warrior. Thieve’s or should I say good thieves, don’t struggle with warriors. Blinds shut warriors down and our only way to combat blinds effectively is Berserker Stance. Let me guess, you’re the thief that tried to fight through it? Well take notes and press any one of your stealth abilities. Don’t look too hard, you only have 4-5 on any average thief PvP build.

You’ve taken every warrior ability only to pretend every other class is absolutely defenseless. Stability is removed by any half decent mesmer or necro. The 8 second of condi ignore from Berserker stance is enough to keep you alive for 8 seconds before a condi necro, engi or mesmer stack condi’s so fast cleansing ire becomes a joke.

Warriors have more HP because that is pretty much all they have. Healing signet is a sustained heal, it is very susceptible to BURST DMG and any amount of unavoidable pressure. 4 seconds of endure pain if you even run with endure pain, Despite popular belief on this forum 4 seconds is not eternity and if it was so game changing, I’m sorry he pressed it before your burst. Any SKILLED player will avoid your burst damage as YOU should avoid their burst damage. Is perma vigor not enough dodging for you?

Healing signet also does not heal 100% of hp every second. It heals roughly 392 Hp/s which is very sustainable in vs someone who has no dps. Every class in this game “can” potentially make HS worthless since the active use is about as effective as stabbing yourself with a knife after slitting your wrists. Now you actually have to spend time playing the game and less time complaining about a class you don’t play.

Mobility, Hambow has ZERO mobility. GS/longbow, extremely mobile and fairly horrible in sPvP with the lacking ability to hold a point down. Skull crack was nerfed with the highly animated skull crack nerf if you weren’t aware. mace over the warriors head + bright glowing effects = move or hundred blades is going to hurt.

And lets break condi warrior next because…. well… it’s still viable and warriors can’t be viable.

P.S. You arent a bias mesmer. You’re inexperienced and clearly haven’t played warrior as much as you’ve wiki’d them or you’d know how to fight them. I can wiki warrior skills and read tool tips too!

Btw. The math on HS is 392 HP/s coming out to 11,760 HP/30s
Healing Surge is stage 3 9,820 HP/30s.

The warrior has to survive the entire 30 seconds to see that return. In a 1 vs 2, the warrior won’t survive 30 seconds “on a point” (not fleeing across the map with a greatsword) if they aren’t bunkered down. And before you start crying saying they would in a 1v1, the reality is you will approach most fights in soloq 1vX because there is no communication in soloq and this game is not balanced to accommodate 1v1, it is balanced around team fighting.

Arganthium.5638:

Perhaps if you considered what each of the skills do individually, and then look at that in the context of what Distortion does, you’ll see that this comparison is a mere exaggeration of the power of a single skill when a skill like Endure Pain alone does the same thing with the addition of a stunbreak.

How does Endure Pain do the same thing as Distortion, when Endure Pain is a 100% power damage reduction, whereas Distortion is an invulnerability?

…Adding redundant details does not make your argument any more accurate.

I am pretty much convinced you believe Endure Pain is some kind of damage immunity to any source of damage at this point. There is no other explanation, else you wouldn’t call stability and a 100% condition duration reduction redundant.

prozon.3561:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

If people read all the posts they will notice that it was the OP who wanted to know why i said that in what comes in risk vs reward, mesmers are in need of more balance than warriors. thats when people started talking about mesmers.

This is a topic about warriors. But what you will say about warriors aside of Healing Signet being to strong at the moment?

Op already said that it was not the damage that made warriors the ultimate war machine. So its the stances? Dont think so because only when Healing Signet was buffed people started to fear warriors. So i dont agree when he says things like:

“Bersercer’s Stance – immunity to conditions for quite a long time (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving 100% reward)” – With this one you can still take damage. you have to use endure pain at the same time to get some sort of invul, but you will get CC so you need to user all defensive stances you have to be safe for 4-5 seconds only (because EP dont last 8-10 seconds).

This is one statement that made me think about the risk in other classes and mesmer (one more time) has advantage against warrior in that department. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Cleansing ire (cleansing with a chance of 100% on longbow, not even having to hit the condi cleanse 0% risk – 100% reward)” – There are other classes that dont need to hit to get rid of conditions too. “But this post is only about warriors….”

“Lets take a burst setup – you spike the warriors from stealth
Warrior: if he reacts fast enough he can basically survive with around 60% health using Endure pain (making it possible for him to disengage) (no risk for pressing one skill – surviving – 100% reward)” – That is how all the get of jail free cards works on every profession, you should know that better than anyone because you play the classes you said you play, by the way (i know this post is about warriors only, but just let me say this one) how the blurred frenzy is worst than this skill?

And then after OP said this:
“so you basically take a lot of damage from retal when using blurred frenzy and then you take even more damage while being very squishy? i see your point but i think we would have to modify that for each class”

So in this case Blurred frenzy its OK? Because i only have immunity as warrior if i use all my stances and i have a 60 sec CD for have the same effect after. You can do this every 10-12 seconds without using a single utility slot (but this is about warriors i know.)

So if ANet nerfed the wrong things about warrior, lets start a discussion here about warriors:

Question: Should ANet reverse the nerfs they made and nerf the real problem (Healing Signet)?
If so, what are your sugestions to do that?

change the game to where it was 9 months ago nerf mesmer and ele and everybody is happy

nope…

change it into it was 6 month ago and nerf bm ranger and node engi, buffing nec A BIT and thats it

or that i agree

best post so far from Silferas.3841 some posts before me – just saying

this guy used his brain before posting and his suggestion is nice and could save the game + warrior

Silferas.3841:

@To all those defending warriors: for the past few days I’ve been playing both solo queue and team queue almost constantly, and here are my findings:
1) there was not a single match where there wouldn’t be present at least one warrior. Not a single match.
2) team queue suffered from warrior stacking much more significantly than solo queue. At least half of the teams I have faced had 2 or more (usually even 3) warriors. While beating teams with less warriors normally, I have rarely, if ever, won a match against a team with 3 warriors. It was not a matter of having bad team composition against warriors, since I played with different people on different classes. The only counter-composition was playing warriors ourselves.
3) Not even having champion legionnaire title (something basic for pvp players), I have achieved the highest win/loss ratio with my warrior that only ties for the first place with spirit ranger.

No other class in this game has access to such superior combination of mechanics like warriors do at this moment. Free access to CC, damage, sustain, mobility, AoE pressure, single target pressure, hybrid type damage ect. makes warriors vastly overpowered compared to any other spec in this game.

My ideas for fixes:

1) Make healing signet more “similar” to the new signet of ether that mesmers have received. It would by achieved by this:
i) healing scales with adrenaline level (adrenaline spam for condi removal would mean much less healing, just like with the mesmer signet and it’s condi removal trait)
ii) healing would take place every 3 seconds (allowing for better burst impact on warriors)
iii) healing signet active would be changed to “recharge all stance skills”
iv) 40 seconds cooldown on activation (as almost every warrior takes sig cd recharge trait + active would be vastly more powerful than mesmer’s)

2) and following changes would be made to stances:
i) base duration of every stance would be gutted to 1/4 of the current duration
ii) stance activation consumes adrenaline, for ever bar of adrenaline spent you gain 1/4 extra duration (meaning 3 bars would give full duration as it is now).
iii) the numbers are ad-hoc just to demonstrate the thought process, they could be like 1/2 and for full duration adrenaline must be spent but it’s all about the thought process

does this seem familiar? yea, it’s all inspired by mesmer’s own class mechanics. With the exception that mesmers don’t get 3 separate immunities, but only one with a short duration, yet on a very long cooldown (don’t bother mentioning blurred frenzy, warriors get so much crowd control that comparing mesmer’s weapon skills with warriors’ is just dumb)

very good ideas
I am so happy to finally see some constructive feedback on this forum from someone that obviously sees the problem as well

The ‘problem’ with Healing Signet is that every single osh- button counts as a heal. Block for four seconds? That’s 4 × 400. Eight seconds invulnerable? 8 × 400.

Then it continues through dodges. Lets say a dodge makes us invulnerable for two seconds. Bam, my dodge just healed me for 2 × 400.

Stuns? Stun for four seconds. If the person survived through that they find their opponent 4 X 400 healed.

Fighting a warrior is very very boring. Especially with their stun&burst. Any time we need to dodge we are giving them 2 × 400. We are kiting because they popped their Stability? 8 × 400.

We just see no headway. I an fight them for almost a minute, exhaust my bag of tricks, and yet have them at half HP if so much, and if I just start kiting because their CDs are back that HP goes back up.

How is that any different from using the same abilities on another class to bridge your heals? A dodge, invul, block…they are all used to prevent damage and to survive that much longer to get your heal back up.

than check other classes heal amount + CD for it and than calculate how much heal a warrior get in this time

than you know why its different to other classes

Arganthium.5638:

That risk tends to be very small when the various stances are taken into account (all of them- excluding the healing one, since we’re talking about using HS here- are good against burst in some form or another). You can simply pop invlun and then not have to worry for much more of the fight. Furthermore, with your very high base health (8k more than thieves, guards, etc) and heavy armor (14% damage reduction over light, 7% over medium), the supposed “risk” is fairly negligible. Also, remember that burst builds, should they want to heal, will generally need to use a cast time in order to do so, which is an extremely dangerous thing to have to do in the middle of a fight when you’re so squishy.

I’d say the risk is very small mostly because Healing Signet is on a Warrior. Heavy Armor, and the Largest health pool.

Put Healing Signet on a Thief or something, and I doubt it would be as big of an issue as it is on the Warrior.

There are very few things that can single-handedly 100->0 a Tanky DPS/Bruiser Warrior.

There are many many things that can single-handedly 100->0 a Thief.

Romek.4201:

than check other classes heal amount + CD for it and than calculate how much heal a warrior get in this time

than you know why its different to other classes

So you think the actual problem is that now roles are inverted, and warrior tend to prolong the fight, so that they can make their HPS count?

I see, and it might be true (as a warrior fighting with signet but with very few defensive systems, I know how it feels to fight a hambow, land a full 100 blades and see them go into a stance/gaining time to regenerate).

Then if signet was reduced/stopped working while dodging or under the effect of certain abilities (Zerker Stance, Endure Pain, Shield Stance), would you feel it’s balanced?

The one way I suggested the warrior be toned down is through reducing their stability uptime. They can get up to 29 seconds of stability by mixture of traits, skills and runes. In my mind that should be reduced to half.

Not being able to CC someone means that you can’t set yourself up appropriately to do damage to them.

And remove stability from Lyssa.

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

“just not viable in touneys at the moment.” That is an imperative statement. All things are viable when presented the right opportunities. The problem is that mesmer does not have many varied builds, so once you have played them enough you can fairly accurately predict some of their movements. Earlier in the thread you have stated that “…if a good..” That is the reward/risk right there on the warrior. They took the risk to predict your next move and quickly countered it because, “They were good.” The reward is they have shrugged off your damage. If that prediction had been wrong their goes their cool down blown.

If anything, all your thread has really achieved is that warrior is not the problem, but that other professions have not been given as wide variety of tools. There is 3 scholar professions, 3 scout and only 2 heavy. One heavy represents powerful defense and tanking, the other powerful offensive and abilities to stick on target. Being that there is only 2, they each need to embody a lil’ more because their is no 3rd variation that people are wanting to see of one that has ok defense and ok dmg output with good play style. It is easy to say, ‘tone warrior down’ when warrior is currently in the best place it has been since beta. This to me kinda says there is an illusion because something good has happened to warrior, it has taken away from everything else which is untrue. The warrior took nothing away from anyone else. Ultimately what can one say?..that a squishy can’t easily out do a heavy? is that not the natural order of things anyway? if they could do it easily then what is the point of armor and professions to begin with? The greater issue now is that mesmer is not ideally placed to 1 vs 1 a heavy, then it must be more support and target focused skills like gw1..which mesmer in gw2 is nothing like the gw1 ancestor. It seems anet has put some eggs in the support basket for mesmer and needs to continue with this is they are intent on not releasing new builds for them and not giving them the tools to effectively and easily deal with a heavy armor power house in the current Pvp model of node capture. However in different models this could change.

If anything, be happy for warrior and instead make arguments/debate about what would be best for mesmer and their issues of AI damage/instant skills etc and how risk/reward should be introduced to them and viability for different situations and how different Pvp models would benefit them.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

Sensotix.4106:

ahuba.6430:

silentnight warrior.2714:

Sensotix.4106:

silentnight warrior.2714:

I play all classes you said (warrior, mesmer and thief) and i see the mesmer with more issues with balancing than warrior in what you call risk vs reward.

really? hows that
please explain it a little bit

With mesmer you can fight without fight, do you know what i mean? (Phantasms, clones) Blurred frenzy (no risk/high reward every 10/12 seconds) are just examples

yeah, that works if you’re using a phantasm spec (which sucks) and playing against idiots. if you played mesmer like you say you do, you’d know most mesmers play shatter and that the phantasms are maybe 1/3 of the damage.

I have to agree here…you are talking about zerker phantasm which is just not viable in tournys atm and with shatter you let your phantasms attack once before shattering

“just not viable in touneys at the moment.” That is an imperative statement. All things are viable when presented the right opportunities. The problem is that mesmer does not have many varied builds, so once you have played them enough you can fairly accurately predict some of their movements. Earlier in the thread you have stated that “…if a good..” That is the reward/risk right there on the warrior. They took the risk to predict your next move and quickly countered it because, “They were good.” The reward is they have shrugged off your damage. If that prediction had been wrong their goes their cool down blown.

If anything, all your thread has really achieved is that warrior is not the problem, but that other professions have not been given as wide variety of tools. There is 3 scholar professions, 3 scout and only 2 heavy. One heavy represents powerful defense and tanking, the other powerful offensive and abilities to stick on target. Being that there is only 2, they each need to embody a lil’ more because their is no 3rd variation that people are wanting to see of one that has ok defense and ok dmg output with good play style. It is easy to say, ‘tone warrior down’ when warrior is currently in the best place it has been since beta. This to me kinda says there is an illusion because something good has happened to warrior, it has taken away from everything else which is untrue. The warrior took nothing away from anyone else. Ultimately what can one say?..that a squishy can’t easily out do a heavy? is that not the natural order of things anyway? if they could do it easily then what is the point of armor and professions to begin with? The greater issue now is that mesmer is not ideally placed to 1 vs 1 a heavy, then it must be more support and target focused skills like gw1..which mesmer in gw2 is nothing like the gw1 ancestor. It seems anet has put some eggs in the support basket for mesmer and needs to continue with this is they are intent on not releasing new builds for them and not giving them the tools to effectively and easily deal with a heavy armor power house in the current Pvp model of node capture. However in different models this could change.

If anything, be happy for warrior and instead make arguments/debate about what would be best for mesmer and their issues of AI damage/instant skills etc and how risk/reward should be introduced to them and viability for different situations and how different Pvp models would benefit them.

i dont want any other class to be buffed
the damage in this game is already way over the top ..anet has to start nerfing

Yes, damage is too high, yet here we are in a thread that you created with 90% of the points being solely focused on how the warrior’s survivability is too high.

Warrior’s damage potential was significantly nerfed last patch, so what is the problem?

bad is we dont have rly jerks here in gw2 making the math and sheats to show the EHP from classes
are somewhere intelligent people for this here ingame?

i would bet EHP for warrior is far above every other class – but we need math for this^^
AND while having highest EHP warrior still do absurd damage

this is the problem

Romek.4201:

bad is we dont have rly jerks here in gw2 making the math and sheats to show the EHP from classes
are somewhere intelligent people for this here ingame?

i would bet EHP for warrior is far above every other class – but we need math for this^^
AND while having highest EHP warrior still do absurd damage

this is the problem

It wouldn’t mean much in a dynamic gameplay like this.

You have many different options than just soaking everything.

In fact, warriors have always had the highest EHP. That didn’t help them much before the buff to healing signet and berserker stance.

yes but healing signet and the stances buff the alraedy high EHP into oblivion

ok i trie it with simple math and simple numbers to make my point clear

lets say 20.000 HP and 2600 thoughness = 50% reduction

so this would need to get 40.000 damage to die right?

40.000/60 s = 666,66666

this mean i need to do 667 dmg per second on someone with 20.000 hp and 50% dmg reduction

now this guy heals with 400 per second from healing signet so this nearly doubles the effective hp

from 40.000 damage he need to die to nearly 80.000

or is some seconds complete imun to damage/conditions in this minute

all this things buff eachother

and healing signet is way to high

edit: all numbers are just numbers to make it easy to understand^^

Romek.4201:

bad is we dont have rly jerks here in gw2 making the math and sheats to show the EHP from classes
are somewhere intelligent people for this here ingame?

i would bet EHP for warrior is far above every other class – but we need math for this^^
AND while having highest EHP warrior still do absurd damage

this is the problem

Take warrior, equip mending or surge, go duel inside point circle with someone from current condi meta, and then come back ant tell us how much those EHP helped you.

Romek.4201:

yes but healing signet and the stances buff the alraedy high EHP into oblivion

Numbers are kinda random, but that’s the calculation. There are many different variables, though, such as poison, dodges, blocks et cetera.

ANet’s idea was to give this to warrior to counter absence of protection and vigor. They overshot it.

Problem isn’t warriors. Stealth is the problem.

Professions with stealth cannot be balanced to fight on even terms because the massive benefits of stealth on top of being able to go toe to toe with another profession makes them hopelessly broken.

Thus, professions like thieves are either hopelessly broken or completely helpless, depending on how they chose their fights.

Remove stealth and place greater emphasis on other things (thieves: evasion, mobility; mesmers: misdirection, teleportation) to make play for those professions more about superior positioning than about breaking the opponent’s UI.

From there mesmers and thieves can then be buffed up to fight on even terms on points.

@Corian

i guess you are in the wrong thread and forum

we talk here bout warrior in spvp not bout getting ganked in wvw by a random thief

Silferas.3841:

@To all those defending warriors: for the past few days I’ve been playing both solo queue and team queue almost constantly, and here are my findings:
1) there was not a single match where there wouldn’t be present at least one warrior. Not a single match.
2) team queue suffered from warrior stacking much more significantly than solo queue. At least half of the teams I have faced had 2 or more (usually even 3) warriors. While beating teams with less warriors normally, I have rarely, if ever, won a match against a team with 3 warriors. It was not a matter of having bad team composition against warriors, since I played with different people on different classes. The only counter-composition was playing warriors ourselves.
3) Not even having champion legionnaire title (something basic for pvp players), I have achieved the highest win/loss ratio with my warrior that only ties for the first place with spirit ranger.

No other class in this game has access to such superior combination of mechanics like warriors do at this moment. Free access to CC, damage, sustain, mobility, AoE pressure, single target pressure, hybrid type damage ect. makes warriors vastly overpowered compared to any other spec in this game.

Im not sure what any of your points has to do about warriors being “OP”… which they are not.

• Just because ppl stack warriors, which are one of the easiest classes to play well, -doesnt mean theyre OP. Stack any one team with a majority of classes and what do you get… exactly. 3 mesmers…. 3 necros… 3 engis…shall i keep going? This point is entirely invalid and seeing warriors in every match… is that a bad thing? i see every class in every match i play.
• Congratulations, you play one of the easiest classes in the game well! Now go play ele/engi and report back.
• Yet again you bring up things a warrior can “bring to the table” and dont back anything up or even compare.
  → highest single target dps… thief, not warrior sorry.
  → free access to CC and aoe pressure… necro… mesmer… condi engi… aswell as war
  → mobility… wars/thieves/eles… when you talk about the ability to disengage we have thieves/wars/mes/ele
• Every single class can obtain some serious dmg. spec is key.

I seriously feel like people just like to complain to complain. The only single thing that needed to be nerfed for wars, and was, was their hammer cc build for wvw.

Im sure everyone says it, but ive never had a problem vs a war in pvp… ive faced some great ones and some horrible ones. But never once have i thought they were op.

The only things thatre are op atm, to name a few, are MM necro and the new heal on mesmer.

Romek.4201:

@Corian

i guess you are in the wrong thread and forum

we talk here bout warrior in spvp not bout getting ganked in wvw by a random thief

But that’s exactly it. Thieves can perform very one-sided kills from stealth in an open environment. The ability for them to do that dictates that they must then be very weak in a controlled environment such as a static point in sPvP.

If we remove stealth and make thieves engage from sight, and disengage while remaining in sight, we can then buff them in said static point fights.

The devs can’t ignore the implications across the board of their balance changes, thus neither can we. Thieves are weak on control points because their strength in open environments/formats.

I lump mesmers in with the thieves because while not reliant on stealth, that they have the option does limit what can be done with them in terms of balance as well.

And I mention the UI because that’s where the biggest advantage is gained. Targeting is the player’s way of telling the game, “this is who I want to hit”. That they used stealth shouldn’t matter, and yet using stealth has the same effect as the opposing player telling the game “I no longer want to hit this target”, which is absolutely should not be happening. It is a huge advantage, and one that I don’t think was ever intended by the devs.

Why I post all this in this topic? Because the “problems” outlined in the first post with warriors go away when his style of play becomes viable in sPvP. That happens by removing stealth and then retooling the professions that used it accordingly.

ArenaNet has been completely silent on warriors.

This either means they think warriors are fine, in which case we all need to go find some other game to play, or they simply don’t care, in which case we all need to go find some other game.