Guild Wars 2

Knote.2904:

Flamfloz.6732:

Knote.2904:

hooma.9642:

Darkdanjal.3401:

hooma.9642:

i has talked with allie and they invite players across the board who give constructive feedback to chatrounds via ventrilo with other devs. they said that not all ppl even the one “who care” take the invite. so i see no positive voice to the player community via youtube.. would be nice if the person would take the invite.

Some top players are just getting tired of giving feedback and seeing on a next patch it failed for THEM, some are just to ranting on it which is understandable as it takes so long, I actually do understand the devs for implementing stuff and then give everyone time to adjust to it but the thing is top players are almost instantly responding to it while casual players are just taking a longer time to adjust, again there needs to be a SEPERATION on balance, you need those top players to balance out things fast and to see what is wrong, you cant balance for both, that is just not possible because if you try it fails for either TOP players or CASUAL players.

And again leave balance to TOP players, leave all the rest you can have an input on on casual players, some TOP players are well known here, they spended so much time on the game, way more time then the devs itselfs.

u make me sick and your arrogant behavior. do u work for anet as network administrator or how do u know how many time the devs play?

against your tired argument.. so anet invites players top and casual to chats with devs where nobody is streaming or anything for balance talks and so and the players invited dont care to even go to the chat? hasnt u read what allie wrote?

what do u think should anet do? drive to the players home and talk to them, cause they give a kitten to talk direcly to the devs via ventrilo?

a monkey who smashes his keyboard more times than a human and cause that has a higher ranking hasnt the exclusive right to suggest balance.

They could always flip on helseth’s stream and look at his rants. Buffet of information there.

Yeah… if you’ve got the patience to listen to the thing in its entirety to find the few gems hidden in 20 minutes of rambling.
How about a f’in powerpoint with 5 bullet points?

Joking aside… “Videos” as suggested in this topic have been done already, and quite well I might add.
I suppose Anet have got a long, heartwarming list of PvP suggestions that will keep them busy until year 2048 by now!

Few hidden gems in 20 minutes of rambling?

Have you even watched them? The whole thing is constructive.

If the devs can’t even bother to watch 20 minutes of an expert player who knows what they’re talking about, how do you expect these players to do the same and go out of their way to tell the devs what’s up?

It’s not the players’ job to make the game good, it’s the devs’.

i can’t believe it either….
that’s why so many people have given up..because they feel like everything they do is senseless and people like this guy just prove that..
every word helseth said was right and worth being listened too

This is horrifically arrogant — guys sorry we don’t know anything but that’s fine cos Senso knows best (lol)

Truth is I couldn’t disagree more — games should be designed around everyone, not just the very top % of players. Its the general casual gaming population that actually brings the money in, after all.

Cast bars please.

Knote.2904:

Flamfloz.6732:

Knote.2904:

hooma.9642:

Darkdanjal.3401:

hooma.9642:

i has talked with allie and they invite players across the board who give constructive feedback to chatrounds via ventrilo with other devs. they said that not all ppl even the one “who care” take the invite. so i see no positive voice to the player community via youtube.. would be nice if the person would take the invite.

Some top players are just getting tired of giving feedback and seeing on a next patch it failed for THEM, some are just to ranting on it which is understandable as it takes so long, I actually do understand the devs for implementing stuff and then give everyone time to adjust to it but the thing is top players are almost instantly responding to it while casual players are just taking a longer time to adjust, again there needs to be a SEPERATION on balance, you need those top players to balance out things fast and to see what is wrong, you cant balance for both, that is just not possible because if you try it fails for either TOP players or CASUAL players.

And again leave balance to TOP players, leave all the rest you can have an input on on casual players, some TOP players are well known here, they spended so much time on the game, way more time then the devs itselfs.

u make me sick and your arrogant behavior. do u work for anet as network administrator or how do u know how many time the devs play?

against your tired argument.. so anet invites players top and casual to chats with devs where nobody is streaming or anything for balance talks and so and the players invited dont care to even go to the chat? hasnt u read what allie wrote?

what do u think should anet do? drive to the players home and talk to them, cause they give a kitten to talk direcly to the devs via ventrilo?

a monkey who smashes his keyboard more times than a human and cause that has a higher ranking hasnt the exclusive right to suggest balance.

They could always flip on helseth’s stream and look at his rants. Buffet of information there.

Yeah… if you’ve got the patience to listen to the thing in its entirety to find the few gems hidden in 20 minutes of rambling.
How about a f’in powerpoint with 5 bullet points?

Joking aside… “Videos” as suggested in this topic have been done already, and quite well I might add.
I suppose Anet have got a long, heartwarming list of PvP suggestions that will keep them busy until year 2048 by now!

Few hidden gems in 20 minutes of rambling?

Have you even watched them? The whole thing is constructive.

If the devs can’t even bother to watch 20 minutes of an expert player who knows what they’re talking about, how do you expect these players to do the same and go out of their way to tell the devs what’s up?

It’s not the players’ job to make the game good, it’s the devs’.

u realize anet want a dialog with the players and the player publish rather a monolog and refuse a dialog.

hooma.9642:

Knote.2904:

Flamfloz.6732:

Knote.2904:

hooma.9642:

Darkdanjal.3401:

hooma.9642:

i has talked with allie and they invite players across the board who give constructive feedback to chatrounds via ventrilo with other devs. they said that not all ppl even the one “who care” take the invite. so i see no positive voice to the player community via youtube.. would be nice if the person would take the invite.

Some top players are just getting tired of giving feedback and seeing on a next patch it failed for THEM, some are just to ranting on it which is understandable as it takes so long, I actually do understand the devs for implementing stuff and then give everyone time to adjust to it but the thing is top players are almost instantly responding to it while casual players are just taking a longer time to adjust, again there needs to be a SEPERATION on balance, you need those top players to balance out things fast and to see what is wrong, you cant balance for both, that is just not possible because if you try it fails for either TOP players or CASUAL players.

And again leave balance to TOP players, leave all the rest you can have an input on on casual players, some TOP players are well known here, they spended so much time on the game, way more time then the devs itselfs.

u make me sick and your arrogant behavior. do u work for anet as network administrator or how do u know how many time the devs play?

against your tired argument.. so anet invites players top and casual to chats with devs where nobody is streaming or anything for balance talks and so and the players invited dont care to even go to the chat? hasnt u read what allie wrote?

what do u think should anet do? drive to the players home and talk to them, cause they give a kitten to talk direcly to the devs via ventrilo?

a monkey who smashes his keyboard more times than a human and cause that has a higher ranking hasnt the exclusive right to suggest balance.

They could always flip on helseth’s stream and look at his rants. Buffet of information there.

Yeah… if you’ve got the patience to listen to the thing in its entirety to find the few gems hidden in 20 minutes of rambling.
How about a f’in powerpoint with 5 bullet points?

Joking aside… “Videos” as suggested in this topic have been done already, and quite well I might add.
I suppose Anet have got a long, heartwarming list of PvP suggestions that will keep them busy until year 2048 by now!

Few hidden gems in 20 minutes of rambling?

Have you even watched them? The whole thing is constructive.

If the devs can’t even bother to watch 20 minutes of an expert player who knows what they’re talking about, how do you expect these players to do the same and go out of their way to tell the devs what’s up?

It’s not the players’ job to make the game good, it’s the devs’.

u realize anet want a dialog with the players and the player publish rather a monolog and refuse a dialog.

That’s nice… still no excuse.

whats the excuse for blaming or ranting about missing stuff on youtube, twitch or in forum but refuse to do a dialog with the devs?

If any one of those guys in “Top Teams” cant solo me than what makes them a top player?

Senso, you keep making these posts without hardline evidence backing your claims up. You justify “Top Teams” and yourself even, yet I bet any one of them can not solo what you would call “mediocre” players. Im more than willing to proove it aswell. Too many times have I played a match where solo que teams have stomped the team I was on, where I have downed or was beating some one solo on a point only to have their team mate help them get the spike on me. I dont equate those players being good, I do equate those players as being a good team though. My point is if your only justification for being “top” only comprises of a good/great team, what does that mean when their solo? Does that put them in the 90%? and 10%> only with their team?

Back on topic though, as you can see you will have some impressionable fan boys, but majority of people are well aware that their free to think for theirselves.

Edit: I apologize If i come off as rude, but you seem young. I want to let you know that their are a lot of players who have been playing MMO’s probably since you were in diapers. Not trying to be funny, but the amount of experience you think you have in one aspect of one game does not equate to the amount of experience other players have in multiple aspects of multiple games before you picked up your first controller.

Your opinions are valued, just like every one else’s should be.

Littlefeather.8623:

If any one of those guys in “Top Teams” cant solo me than what makes them a top player?

Senso, you keep making these posts without hardline evidence backing your claims up. You justify “Top Teams” and yourself even, yet I bet any one of them can not solo what you would call “mediocre” players. Im more than willing to proove it aswell. Too many times have I played a match where solo que teams have stomped the team I was on, where I have downed or was beating some one solo on a point only to have their team mate help them get the spike on me. I dont equate those players being good, I do equate those players as being a good team though. My point is if your only justification for being “top” only comprises of a good/great team, what does that mean when their solo? Does that put them in the 90%? and 10%> only with their team?

Back on topic though, as you can see you will have some impressionable fan boys, but majority of people are well aware that their free to think for theirselves.

Edit: I apologize If i come off as rude, but you seem young. I want to let you know that their are a lot of players who have been playing MMO’s probably since you were in diapers. Not trying to be funny, but the amount of experience you think you have in one aspect of one game does not equate to the amount of experience other players have in multiple aspects of multiple games before you picked up your first controller.

Your opinions are valued, just like every one else’s should be.

i really appreciate your feedback!
and i have to admit i used the wrong words and i think it most people dont get what i mean and i am sorry for that
i will try to clarify this in my video which will hopefully be finished soon
and i know some people got mad at me but i think its mainly because i failed using the right words and i dont really know how to put it

Sensotix.4106:

Littlefeather.8623:

If any one of those guys in “Top Teams” cant solo me than what makes them a top player?

Senso, you keep making these posts without hardline evidence backing your claims up. You justify “Top Teams” and yourself even, yet I bet any one of them can not solo what you would call “mediocre” players. Im more than willing to proove it aswell. Too many times have I played a match where solo que teams have stomped the team I was on, where I have downed or was beating some one solo on a point only to have their team mate help them get the spike on me. I dont equate those players being good, I do equate those players as being a good team though. My point is if your only justification for being “top” only comprises of a good/great team, what does that mean when their solo? Does that put them in the 90%? and 10%> only with their team?

Back on topic though, as you can see you will have some impressionable fan boys, but majority of people are well aware that their free to think for theirselves.

Edit: I apologize If i come off as rude, but you seem young. I want to let you know that their are a lot of players who have been playing MMO’s probably since you were in diapers. Not trying to be funny, but the amount of experience you think you have in one aspect of one game does not equate to the amount of experience other players have in multiple aspects of multiple games before you picked up your first controller.

Your opinions are valued, just like every one else’s should be.

i really appreciate your feedback!
and i have to admit i used the wrong words and i think it most people dont get what i mean and i am sorry for that
i will try to clarify this in my video which will hopefully be finished soon
and i know some people got mad at me but i think its mainly because i failed using the right words and i dont really know how to put it

I apologize If I come off as rude before. One thing to keep in mind though, in every aspect of everything, is if you need to communicate to a very large group you should word things where it appeals to every one from any culture/religion/political backgroun/etc. Most people prefer numbers and charts, but if you can get by with at least testimonials or examples that may be good enough, because lets face it; GW2 PvP ranking/etc is not easy to disect and put into numbers and categories we are all agreeing on.

Littlefeather.8623:

Sensotix.4106:

Littlefeather.8623:

If any one of those guys in “Top Teams” cant solo me than what makes them a top player?

Senso, you keep making these posts without hardline evidence backing your claims up. You justify “Top Teams” and yourself even, yet I bet any one of them can not solo what you would call “mediocre” players. Im more than willing to proove it aswell. Too many times have I played a match where solo que teams have stomped the team I was on, where I have downed or was beating some one solo on a point only to have their team mate help them get the spike on me. I dont equate those players being good, I do equate those players as being a good team though. My point is if your only justification for being “top” only comprises of a good/great team, what does that mean when their solo? Does that put them in the 90%? and 10%> only with their team?

Back on topic though, as you can see you will have some impressionable fan boys, but majority of people are well aware that their free to think for theirselves.

Edit: I apologize If i come off as rude, but you seem young. I want to let you know that their are a lot of players who have been playing MMO’s probably since you were in diapers. Not trying to be funny, but the amount of experience you think you have in one aspect of one game does not equate to the amount of experience other players have in multiple aspects of multiple games before you picked up your first controller.

Your opinions are valued, just like every one else’s should be.

i really appreciate your feedback!
and i have to admit i used the wrong words and i think it most people dont get what i mean and i am sorry for that
i will try to clarify this in my video which will hopefully be finished soon
and i know some people got mad at me but i think its mainly because i failed using the right words and i dont really know how to put it

I apologize If I come off as rude before. One thing to keep in mind though, in every aspect of everything, is if you need to communicate to a very large group you should word things where it appeals to every one from any culture/religion/political backgroun/etc. Most people prefer numbers and charts, but if you can get by with at least testimonials or examples that may be good enough, because lets face it; GW2 PvP ranking/etc is not easy to disect and put into numbers and categories we are all agreeing on.

no it wasnt rude at all i really get your point

Saying anet should listen to “everyone” is much like saying world leaders and economic policy makers should listen to “everyone” when it comes to making decisions and policy.

Doesn’t work out.

It should be pointed out that we really don’t know for sure what Anet does when they make these decisions besides what they’re “allowed” to tell us and what we speculate is the reasoning behind it.

I would imagine they try to take into account multiple perspectives with their decisions and favor the approach that will get them in the least trouble with the vast majority of players though.

hooma.9642:

whats the excuse for blaming or ranting about missing stuff on youtube, twitch or in forum but refuse to do a dialog with the devs?

Well for one the players aren’t being paid to design this game and the devs are. If they wanted to pay the players I’m sure that would open up the dialog more and assist with getting them to design the game for them.

If the dev team needs the players to learn how to craft a valuable experience then Anet is paying the wrong people to be on the dev team.

Complaining that the people who pay to play your game won’t show up weekly to tell you how to do your job is a complaint the community should have zero sympathy for.

Sensotix.4106:

Knote.2904:

Flamfloz.6732:

Knote.2904:

They could always flip on helseth’s stream and look at his rants. Buffet of information there.

Yeah… if you’ve got the patience to listen to the thing in its entirety to find the few gems hidden in 20 minutes of rambling.
How about a f’in powerpoint with 5 bullet points?

Joking aside… “Videos” as suggested in this topic have been done already, and quite well I might add.
I suppose Anet have got a long, heartwarming list of PvP suggestions that will keep them busy until year 2048 by now!

Few hidden gems in 20 minutes of rambling?

Have you even watched them? The whole thing is constructive.

If the devs can’t even bother to watch 20 minutes of an expert player who knows what they’re talking about, how do you expect these players to do the same and go out of their way to tell the devs what’s up?

It’s not the players’ job to make the game good, it’s the devs’.

i can’t believe it either….
that’s why so many people have given up..because they feel like everything they do is senseless and people like this guy just prove that..
every word helseth said was right and worth being listened too

How did I prove that “everything [people] do is senseless”?
Furthermore, I would ask you: “what do you think is the purpose (the sense) of the video in the first place”? Was the purpose of the video to talk to the “developers” or talk to the “player base”?

If the goal of the videos is to talk to the developers, then my point remains the same: the videos are not concise, are formulated as “rants” (i.e. generally negative and criticising, without offering many solutions to the issues pointed out), moreover the developers have (apparently) offered other channels to discuss issues with them (skype calls or whatever).
If I ignore the channels preferred by the developers and chose to send my views using my own chosen channels (email, letters, videos, website listing all the complaints), then surely it is the developer’s right to ignore my suggestions.
As an analogy, you do not raise a “support” ticket (e.g. my account has been hacked) for GW2 by doing a video. There is a specific channel to do this, use it, or risk being inefficient at solving your issue.

So my whole point is that, arguably, people at ANet have better things to do than watching videos all day and spending all their time on the forums. They have better things to do like their actual “job” (and no, watching videos by players isn’t in their job description either). Which is why they (seemingly) offered specific avenues for good players to talk about the game – a place where the right people will be here at the right time, available and listening to the feedback, interacting with the player.

Anyway, here is a transcript of one of Helseth rants kindly provided by a fellow GW2 player (the 4 first posts are a transcript of the “rant”):
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Helseth-s-Rant-of-the-Week-PVP-Development/first#post2771165
Is it the best format to communicate with the already busy ANet developers?

I let you be the judge, but as I see it, these videos seem better at communicating with the player base (and getting a following of players) than communicating ideas concisely for the developer.
Having (good) players talking to a large portion of the player base in an accessible and amusing format (the “video rant”) is needed and there definitely is a market for this (thanks Helseth, you did this very well and I enjoyed watching them), but again apparently the developers have another preferred channel if you want to communicate with them.

To wrap things up, since I’m sure that the developers (at least some of them) have been watching Helseth’s videos, and since posts from people like me (“no names” forum posters) are probably lost in the myriad of other forum posts, that makes you wrong Sensotix.
The truth is that the voice of good players like Helseth who made the effort to make a video is heard more than the voice of the other 90%.
The other truth is that ANet simply don’t have enough manpower to implement all the excellent ideas we hear from good or not-so-good players alike – so rest assured that the 90% don’t feel that ANet is listening to their ideas much more than you feel they don’t listen to you as a “good player”. It is what it is.

Flamfloz.6732:

Is it the best format to communicate with the already busy ANet developers?

I let you be the judge, but as I see it, these videos seem better at communicating with the player base (and getting a following of players) than communicating ideas concisely for the developer.
Having (good) players talking to a large portion of the player base in an accessible and amusing format (the “video rant”) is needed and there definitely is a market for this (thanks Helseth, you did this very well and I enjoyed watching them), but again apparently the developers have another preferred channel if you want to communicate with them.

I’m not sure why you expect the community to be going out of its way to ease the communication with the devs.

The opposite is what you should be expecting.

zhi.3918:

I’m not sure why you expect the community to be going out of its way to ease the communication with the devs.

The opposite is what you should be expecting.

This.

I sense a lot of people are kind of having a sort of stockholm syndrome-esque reaction because of anet’s recent claims of “opening up.”

Its really kind of pathetic.

Flamfloz.6732:

Is it the best format to communicate with the already busy ANet developers?

I let you be the judge, but as I see it, these videos seem better at communicating with the player base (and getting a following of players) than communicating ideas concisely for the developer.
Having (good) players talking to a large portion of the player base in an accessible and amusing format (the “video rant”) is needed and there definitely is a market for this (thanks Helseth, you did this very well and I enjoyed watching them), but again apparently the developers have another preferred channel if you want to communicate with them.

It could also be as simple, that a top player (after using the preferred channel for the developer’s), does not feel heard. Therefore, he makes several videos in order to get the feedback and backup from the rest of the community.

I would think it makes a greater impact, if you have a competitive high ranked player share his ideas with the rest of the community and find, that many of us (who are not highly ranked) approve very much of the ideas given.

It should also show the developers, that it is an idea, which scrubs like me and top players alike approve of. Aka, it would benefit all of us. Not just the 4% or the 10%, but all of us.

When I first started playing, I did just about everything wrong. I literally had zero toughness and it did not take long before all the D/D thieves were swarming me for the free kill and the free honor.

I asked a friend to duel me. I learned the basic attack patterns for thieves. I learned when to dodge, when to block, when to burst and when to play defensive. I changed my spec in order to have enough burst to kill but enough defense to avoid getting one shot.

I still died, I still messed up, but 99% of the time, it truly was a l2p matter on my part, and I could usually see afterwards where I went wrong.

The important point here is that I was improving at the time, and I felt rewarded for improving.

I am not saying everything before the condition meta was perfect, but after it hit, I am having issues telling if I die because I mess up, or if I die because there really is not much I can do. This makes it a lot harder to learn and improve imo.

Because of this, I agree with many of the points that have been raised previously.

• Do I want to be beaten by someone’s passive abilities? No, I do not.
• Do I want abilities with no animations, giving you no realistic chance to react? No, I do not.
• Do I want a game without counter play? No, I do not.
• Do I want the damage to be lowered so you have a chance to execute the counter play? Learn while you are fighting? Yes, I do.

I don’t want a flat game, where you don’t get rewarded for being the better player. I´ll rather die a lot (which I will) until I improve.

I don’t want a game that is ‘flat’, skill progression wise. I do think some professions are too rewarding with almost no skill.

I realize that A-net doesn’t want to scare of new players by making it too hard.
I am still a somewhat new player when it comes to pvp, and I am scarred of for other reasons….

I would rather lose to someone, that is clearly a lot better than I am skill wise, than I would see this skilled player loose to someone with as little skill as myself, but with an easy mode spec.

I want a game where there is something to strive for. I want a reason to better myself and I want to be rewarded for doing so.

zhi.3918:

Flamfloz.6732:

Is it the best format to communicate with the already busy ANet developers?

I let you be the judge, but as I see it, these videos seem better at communicating with the player base (and getting a following of players) than communicating ideas concisely for the developer.
Having (good) players talking to a large portion of the player base in an accessible and amusing format (the “video rant”) is needed and there definitely is a market for this (thanks Helseth, you did this very well and I enjoyed watching them), but again apparently the developers have another preferred channel if you want to communicate with them.

I’m not sure why you expect the community to be going out of its way to ease the communication with the devs.

The opposite is what you should be expecting.

But I precisely don’t expect the community to go out of their way at all – in fact, they shouldn’t go out of their way and do videos, or websites, or posts on GW2 guru forums. This is way too much effort, way too much work. And for what?
They should just use the tools proposed by ANet, namely forums and the ventrilo chats to potentially optimise the chances of reaching a developer.
Everything outside of this is going out of their way and is just a bonus (this is a good thing, I like variety, but not the preferred/most efficient thing).

Reesha.7901:

It could also be as simple, that a top player (after using the preferred channel for the developer’s), does not feel heard. Therefore, he makes several videos in order to get the feedback and backup from the rest of the community.

That is certainly one of the reasons why people make these videos.

But (I quote my previous post here), I think you are missing the main point:
The other truth is that ANet simply don’t have enough manpower to implement all the excellent ideas we hear from good or not-so-good players alike – so rest assured that the 90% don’t feel that ANet is listening to their ideas much more than you feel they don’t listen to you as a “good player”. It is what it is.

I’m pretty sure ANet are well aware of the various things they need to do to improve the game, and they have a todo list probably longer than your arm.
The problem isn’t even to know who should talk for who and how, the problem is with ANet and is a problem of resource allocation, as in: not enough resources are allocated to the development of the PvP features.
(on a side note, you should have noticed that they are actually prioritising issues differently now – by listening to people’s feedback, with the “Collaborative Development- Request for Topics” post, so go and cast your vote if not done yet – and they do the same in other subforums as well… will resource allocation follow? Time will tell)

So in other words, I don’t believe “Sensotix’s new video” is going to change the situation. Nope. And to be frank, I’d like to be proven wrong too, so by all means keep going guys and keep doing this stuff if you have the time and energy. Diversity is always good.

And I don’t even pretend this resource allocation thing is a new idea, here is a quote from Helseth’s rant (linked in my previous post):

And I blame, I mean whatever toilethead who decided to not give any of the resources to PvP. Because it’s clear that PvP nowadays is a superb source of revenue. Both in popularity, I mean, in selling more copies. I mean, while PvE tends to fade out eventually in many games, the PvP scene stands forever, as long as you have the forum to compete in, there’s going to be people competing. As the examples could be from Quake, DOTA, Starcraft 1 and 2, Counterstrike, all sorts of things. But whoever it is, he’s not putting priority on it.
And that’s the core issue of Guild Wars 2 PvP. Like, this is the issue: The development team has nothing.
[…]
But I want to genuinely present my concern – what I mean – I wanted to present what the potential can be and how it’s being squandered. And it’s being squandered because of this. Like, the developers are getting so much fire for this. But in the end we can’t really put it all on the developers.
[…]
The developers are like, “We know, it’s on the list” but in reality it’s a very very long list which has the slowest work process ever.

Flamfloz.6732:

But (I quote my previous post here), I think you are missing the main point:
The other truth is that ANet simply don’t have enough manpower to implement all the excellent ideas we hear from good or not-so-good players alike – so rest assured that the 90% don’t feel that ANet is listening to their ideas much more than you feel they don’t listen to you as a “good player”. It is what it is.

I’m pretty sure ANet are well aware of the various things they need to do to improve the game, and they have a todo list probably longer than your arm.

Nah, I get your main point. My point was just, that when they have to prioritize the todo list, I would hope they move suggestions that would benefit all of us high on the list.

I think many of Helseth’s suggestions would benefit all of us, but it became more obvious after he made his rant and many players on various levels agreed with him.

Flamfloz.6732:

But I precisely don’t expect the community to go out of their way at all – in fact, they shouldn’t go out of their way and do videos, or websites, or posts on GW2 guru forums. This is way too much effort, way too much work. And for what?
They should just use the tools proposed by ANet, namely forums and the ventrilo chats to potentially optimise the chances of reaching a developer.
Everything outside of this is going out of their way and is just a bonus (this is a good thing, I like variety, but not the preferred/most efficient thing).

They want to do videos, they want to post on websites and forums. This is what they want to do.

They want to be part of and be respected within the community. As this forum is poorly designed, has very controversial moderation and seemingly has little to no impact for posting on it people aren’t motivated to do to much of it. Often the better solution is to hold the discussion else where with more reasonable moderators and a better community for the discussion.

So yes you are asking them to go out of their way, you are asking them to meet on dev’s schedule you are asking them to analyze, suggest and improve gameplay privately with no recognition of their contribution (let alone paying them for it).

You are asking them to use do something other than what they want to do. Thus you are asking them to go out of their way.

I’m pretty sure ANet are well aware of the various things they need to do to improve the game, and they have a todo list probably longer than your arm.

Most of this vocal community here would disagree with you.

Hell, their design director seems to disagree with you.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Collaborative-Development-Request-for-Topics

They seem to be unsure what they should be focusing on design wise. Which makes sense as their previous steps haven’t made the pvp part of the game any better and the general consensus is that it is now worse.

They are trying to crowd source their design, geting their community to do the work for them and you young forumling will get the wonderful experience of maybe having one if your ideas implemented…while the people who are getting paid to come up with ideas, do analysis and implement improvements will make the money. Money you will likely spend more of, as ‘collaborating’ to develop the game is a hook that will keep people here a bit longer.

Hopefully this is more than just a hook, but even if it doesn’t end up being more it is a savvy campaign to pull in some more money.

The problem isn’t even to know who should talk for who and how, the problem is with ANet and is a problem of resource allocation, as in: not enough resources are allocated to the development of the PvP features.

This is an argument that has been floating around, but it doesn’t explain the crowd sourcing design idea of theirs, nor does it explain the bad choices made over recent patches.

Having few resources shouldn’t lead a good designer to making a worse game, just decrease the speed of making it better.

Edit: Additional note on ‘collaborative design’
You’ve given up any right to any idea you post on this forum. https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/
Scroll down to section 6.
There is even a potential -although very unlikely- liability issue for their dev team reading/listening to design ideas from other sources.

TO EVERYONE POSTING ABOUT TOP PLAYERS REFUSING TO SPEAK WITH THE DEVS.

http://sv.twitch.tv/guildwars2pvptv/b/472714296

1:43:05

Keep in mind, Helseth is perma banned on the fo rums (he explains why at 01:52:15).

So, how exactly is he supposed to contact the developers? If the developers arent trying to reach him and he is banned on the forums, what other methods does he have than his own stream?

Helseth is not the only player who says things like this, if you go through his broadcasts on his channel you’ll find other players such as Xeph and Denshee saying the same things about these topics.

You’d think that the players wouldnt be this disgruntled if the developers tried to actively communicate with them and listened to what they said.

All in all, it seems like a very cheap move from Allie. She claims that she tries to talk to the top players yet they simply refuse to respond, shifting the blame on the players (as we can see here from the comments) when the players in topic are players that either left the game or are banned on the forums.

zhi.3918:

Flamfloz.6732:

But I precisely don’t expect the community to go out of their way at all – in fact, they shouldn’t go out of their way and do videos, or websites, or posts on GW2 guru forums. This is way too much effort, way too much work. And for what?
They should just use the tools proposed by ANet, namely forums and the ventrilo chats to potentially optimise the chances of reaching a developer.
Everything outside of this is going out of their way and is just a bonus (this is a good thing, I like variety, but not the preferred/most efficient thing).

They want to do videos, they want to post on websites and forums. This is what they want to do.
…

Having few resources shouldn’t lead a good designer to making a worse game, just decrease the speed of making it better….

so they want fame and not improving the game!

the quality of a design is subjective. gw2 isnt a worse game, its just for a certain population wrong designed. but if its not designed for u, why we keep playing and complaining? at least anet is willing to design it more in our favour and thats why they ask.

SimonMester.7298:

TO EVERYONE POSTING ABOUT TOP PLAYERS REFUSING TO SPEAK WITH THE DEVS.

http://sv.twitch.tv/guildwars2pvptv/b/472714296

1:43:05

Keep in mind, Helseth is perma banned on the fo rums (he explains why at 01:52:15).

So, how exactly is he supposed to contact the developers? If the developers arent trying to reach him and he is banned on the forums, what other methods does he have than his own stream?

Helseth is not the only player who says things like this, if you go through his broadcasts on his channel you’ll find other players such as Xeph and Denshee saying the same things about these topics.

You’d think that the players wouldnt be this disgruntled if the developers tried to actively communicate with them and listened to what they said.

All in all, it seems like a very cheap move from Allie. She claims that she tries to talk to the top players yet they simply refuse to respond, shifting the blame on the players (as we can see here from the comments) when the players in topic are players that either left the game or are banned on the forums.

why should any one invite that rude person? the first minute after 1:43:05 he offend posters on this forum. and its right that he is banned. we dont need another insulting person. i hasnt seen his posts but i can imagine how they where.

hooma.9642:

SimonMester.7298:

TO EVERYONE POSTING ABOUT TOP PLAYERS REFUSING TO SPEAK WITH THE DEVS.

http://sv.twitch.tv/guildwars2pvptv/b/472714296

1:43:05

Keep in mind, Helseth is perma banned on the fo rums (he explains why at 01:52:15).

So, how exactly is he supposed to contact the developers? If the developers arent trying to reach him and he is banned on the forums, what other methods does he have than his own stream?

Helseth is not the only player who says things like this, if you go through his broadcasts on his channel you’ll find other players such as Xeph and Denshee saying the same things about these topics.

You’d think that the players wouldnt be this disgruntled if the developers tried to actively communicate with them and listened to what they said.

All in all, it seems like a very cheap move from Allie. She claims that she tries to talk to the top players yet they simply refuse to respond, shifting the blame on the players (as we can see here from the comments) when the players in topic are players that either left the game or are banned on the forums.

why should any one invite that rude person? the first minute after 1:43:05 he offend posters on this forum. and its right that he is banned. we dont need another insulting person. i hasnt seen his posts but i can imagine how they where.

Lol I can only imagine if Riot was as carebear and didn’t pay attention to it’s top (yet rude) players.

But w/e, the ball’s in Anet’s court (and has been for over a year heh), I don’t really care anymore. I’m not putting my hope in the game anymore, up to them if they really want to fix the game. /shrug

Balancing only around highest skill ratios is also not something that should be done. I could give you an example. Lets say that backstab on thief would 1-shot anything regardless from armor/hp but if it would miss or be dodged, it would go on a 5 minutes cooldown. With such conditions you could say that such ability is 100% fine becouse it can be easily hard-countered with player skill. However, would you really think that such ability would be OK for a game like GW2, played by the general population?

Awe.1096:

Balancing only around highest skill ratios is also not something that should be done. I could give you an example. Lets say that backstab on thief would 1-shot anything regardless from armor/hp but if it would miss or be dodged, it would go on a 5 minutes cooldown. With such conditions you could say that such ability is 100% fine becouse it can be easily hard-countered with player skill. However, would you really think that such ability would be OK for a game like GW2, played by the general population?

Instagib has its own balance mechanics that has to be looked at, but I do agree that Anet should look at the general population. I don’t care bout the mechanics or the reasons between skill and unskilled, thanks to the gem store, I’m certain a majority of anet’s profit is in casual players who make frequent gem purchases. From a business standpoint, there is no reason why Anet should cater to the top X% when its most likely the vast majority of their profits are not there. In GW1, PvP was the reason Anet was afloat, not so in GW2.

In my personal opinion, this is a game, play it if you like it, and if you honestly cannot stand certain issues, then just stop. There are other games out there, in fact, see that thing outside? Its called a tree.

tree can go straight to hell

I want to explain why opening up to everyone is partially flawed.
I have read quite some posts in here and agree to listening to all players to some degree but not to the same.
And this is the same for balancing and other issues.
It is not the same for everyone, it applies differently for the experience and skill level of various players as well as what circumstances one finds him- or herself in.
This being said, feedback has to be evaluated in the same matter.
While one semi-experienced player may find issues with certain builds, attacks, situations, a top-experienced player may have much less issues. I recommend here keeping the top level fair, balanced and skillful. This does not mean lower tiers should be neglected. A competitive game cannot be held alive though if there isn’t much depth and the requirements to compete with the best are lowered as much as making experience lose a lot of its value. I think it is reasonable to listen to top players more but not neglect any group of players. sPvP is to be the highly-competitive part in Guild Wars 2, so it is gonna be hardcore. Making things casual-friendly can be done by 5vs5-Custom-Servers which do not take much of a farm or grind and allow players to play the game to their liking.
However, I think a bigger issue is accessibility and most people hide their real complain under balance. (I agree balance has gotten way worse over a 1-year-span)
The game modes are fairly few, Hotjoin has probably not changed for 2 months, so it is still a zerg-fest, the secondary rewards for playing are a grind and do not hold much of a value (cosmetics of which there are way more in PvE), no financial income to enjoy other parts of the game or be able to afford certain things, leaderboards were wished but (I think) all competitive players wished for a much higher decay.
I want to give some recommendations in how to fix these things possibly:

- Have a specific currency only for PvP, allowing to buy Gem Store or other PvP rewards by certain amounts. Gem Store items cost a lot more, obviously. This won’t bring chaos into the trading post market and have you take a breath. (Basic rewards; there can be special ones as I saw in Romek’s thread)
- Change the achievement system. Most of these achievements are meaningless. Why also have achievement points for sPvP’ers ? (Let them get the rewards for matches played instead)
- Decay is a bit of a tricky thing. Competitive players will play a lot of matches per day/week/month. A permanent decay is important, it should come in when players do not play, not when they also play. The amount can be gradually higher for the amount of time spent being inactive.
- Some rewards are PvP-only. Give some incentives which can only be attained from sPvP and be of use in PvE and WvW too.
- Take 8vs8 out and put them into custom servers. They have really no place. If one wants to play with higher number of players on each team, they can get a cheap custom-arena and change the settings. These servers can be made public, of course.
- Implement the rated and unrated queues you have planned for ages. I gives room for players to enjoy their time or play serious. Having put paid and free together had been one big mistake.
- Make the game non-grindy. sPvP is not about grinding meaningless stuff but having fulfillment out of personal progression (or group-progression). I am confused how the rank system got live since it shows its flaws quite clearly once the inflation of rank points is known. (Most players just grinded out rank points near the beginning of the game as information was meager)
- Get the income for the development out of PvE and/or WvW. They have the largest player-base and a lot of casual players probably are somewhat financially the backbone.

- Keep sPvP seperated, but emphasize on its possible charm. There are differences in sPvP, WvW and PvE. This means that split balance allows for reasonable balancing. It is fairly irrational to think of a fairly balanced game-type if there are other, “non-involved” (I cannot find the proper word or phrase here) influences.
- Stop trying to monetize sPvP now. Many players are frustrated, they won’t buy anything or at least not much. Instead, focus on making sPvP grow out of its undead state and implement few, but high-quality items, bundles, etc. in the gem-store. Additionally, there are some fun items. Finishers are somewhat okay in this case, but they are still too pricy for pure-sPvP’ers. So: DON’T FORCE PLAYERS (or make them feel forced)!
- Get tutorial maps in a la allowing a single player to join one of the maps to try out the map mechanics. Keep it separate from the NPC-queues or servers. Have it probably in the PvP-Menu under an additional tag. With this, a 1-man-Battle-of-Kyhlo-Map allows to take the trebuchet in the mists out.
- Take the NPCs (Svanir, Chieftain, Class ones, Golems) in the mists out and give a NPC map a la Training Stages/Rooms in Fighting games. Make it that the training room is individual but friends or guildies can be invited. Bring new players into the training area, making it somewhat of a quest where you follow a NPC (Spirit-like one maybe), before this, have a specially designed map as a tutorial. Enable it that players can leave it once they have done it once. (Under options, maybe popping up a window when accidently joining the tutorial map and skipping it if enabled before) Make the tutorial map being joined when going to the mists.
(These last two points are also changes for aesthetics)
- Have an in-game leader-board-menu. Take the site you have off as soon as it is implemented. It is just a waste of space if not.
- Put back difficulty and depth in the game, sPvP or most games are, when played rated or competitive, hardcore. It is a reason why it is competitive for a long time since the difficulty and depth allows to learn a lot and improve a lot over a long time. What I consider being a good change, as others do, much less passive play and AI. I am not sure how there can be further depth and difficulty though since I know it ain’t an easy-to-answer question. I think unlocking the locks on weapons and skills may be important later on. Traits are partly okay, but some are just useless in the meta or have way too many down-sides with way too few up-sides. I think I can only give situational examples now (aka meta-dependent).
- Get a PTR for everyone done. It helps a ton more to get feedback and a good set of methods to rationally and reasonably evaluate data can be made from it.

I think it is kind of a bit tricky to monetize sPvP, I have yet not found a clear and very effective solution, but trying to monetize it right now is just giving a disrespectful impression.

@Allie, forward this to Karl, if you can: Don’t balance Guild Wars 2 around UmvC3, it is not balanced (known in their community) and the difficulty is way, way higher in it than in Guild Wars 2. Instead, Guilty Gear may be a good source of inspiration since it has fairly easy controls as much as I have heard while still maintaining a good amount of depth and difficulty.

Lastly, I feel like way too many people think black & white nowadays. There is a lot of grey area too, which makes things more complex and fun to evaluate and learn. This kind of ties in to listening to all players but to certain extents.
Anyway, I am done with Guild Wars 2 for an unforsee-able time. If it were to blow up, I would maybe play it again. Else, it is really not a good competitive game (anymore), since it is miles away from bigger titles or series. Neither is it fun anymore. :/ (It honestly lost its charm for me around January)

tl;dr: Read the whole text. I also agree with Sensotix, Oblivion and a few others, while acknowledging it is more complex than a simple yes and no.

P.S.: Stop being irrational, take failure for what it is and learn from it. Denying failure is naive. And things have failed with Guild Wars 2 (and other failures may come).

P.S.(2): I just saw Super’s post. I forgot to mention, some old players may be inactive which explains why not all players give feedback. I had been playing for around a year, never in Alpha either. I think this is flawed since the meta evolved too. Older, inactive players cannot give much of a feedback (if they do not play much on Alpha, even less).
Also, I heard testings are done with WvW-&PvE-Players which can distort. (No offense but a certain bias is likely since they do not regularly play sPvP) (Basically what Super wrote in the last paragraph and I can back it up with what I heard too)

The fact that about 90% of top 100 team queue leaderboard are not even in alpha testing says it all, not even Car Crash is in the alpha or any active team that is currently playing so I am not surprised if they take most of these balance changes from wvw players who know nothing about spvp, that’s mostly what’s ruining the balance…

I think they would do a much better job if only the devs decide on these balance changes rather than listen to pve/wvw players who know nothing about spvp since they don’t have any active top spvpers in the alpha…

SimonMester.7298:

TO EVERYONE POSTING ABOUT TOP PLAYERS REFUSING TO SPEAK WITH THE DEVS.

http://sv.twitch.tv/guildwars2pvptv/b/472714296

1:43:05

Keep in mind, Helseth is perma banned on the fo rums (he explains why at 01:52:15).

So, how exactly is he supposed to contact the developers? If the developers arent trying to reach him and he is banned on the forums, what other methods does he have than his own stream?

Helseth is not the only player who says things like this, if you go through his broadcasts on his channel you’ll find other players such as Xeph and Denshee saying the same things about these topics.

You’d think that the players wouldnt be this disgruntled if the developers tried to actively communicate with them and listened to what they said.

All in all, it seems like a very cheap move from Allie. She claims that she tries to talk to the top players yet they simply refuse to respond, shifting the blame on the players (as we can see here from the comments) when the players in topic are players that either left the game or are banned on the forums.

IM giving a HUGE plus on this comment because I can confirm what Simonmester is saying. I was on that stream also from Helseth and Xeph and denshee were there. As a reminder Xeph has left the game for months yet he still talked a bit about balance.

Ashzene, part of TP team is Always open for a talk, I have whispered him a couple of times and when he has time he Always answeres a question or anything for that matter, all these players have talked to the devs before: helseth, denshee, ashzene, those are the names that are coming to my mind and Im sorry Im forgetting someone….

@Hooma: you keep on saying that every person out here is either arrogant to the devs or an rude person yet you have absolutely no clue have much effort these guys did before. They have talked to the devs, they have given time to the devs and yet they are claiming that all these players dont want to talk anymore, so they put effort in other resources like streams or youtube channels, yet you are claiming dont want to talk….
you should wake up for a change…you said it yourself you never even watched a post from helseth for example, and yeah he might be ranting a lot but instead of following the devs you should begin by following some of these players there stream, Helseth might be ranting but he does a great job in explaining what he does while he is playing solo queue

Also to close up sensotix interviewed top players, one of them was ashzene, even ashzene is saying in that vid that helseth did a great job in his rants what was wrong atm in the meta.

These players know what they are saying yet you are the one ranting that those players dont want to listen and dont want to talk, they did….and on more then one of an occasion. they wouldnt take the effort to talk about GW2 if they didnt care but even those players have their limits you know…

Darkdanjal.3401:

…..

@Hooma: you keep on saying that every person out here is either arrogant to the devs or an rude person yet you have absolutely no clue have much effort these guys did before. They have talked to the devs, they have given time to the devs and yet they are claiming that all these players dont want to talk anymore, so they put effort in other resources like streams or youtube channels, yet you are claiming dont want to talk….
you should wake up for a change…you said it yourself you never even watched a post from helseth for example, and yeah he might be ranting a lot but instead of following the devs you should begin by following some of these players there stream, Helseth might be ranting but he does a great job in explaining what he does while he is playing solo queue

Also to close up sensotix interviewed top players, one of them was ashzene, even ashzene is saying in that vid that helseth did a great job in his rants what was wrong atm in the meta.

These players know what they are saying yet you are the one ranting that those players dont want to listen and dont want to talk, they did….and on more then one of an occasion. they wouldnt take the effort to talk about GW2 if they didnt care but even those players have their limits you know…

im sure anet devs know whats wrong with the game without ranting “top” players telling it on streams. balance is a other discussion.

im also sure that it doesnt help to be rude against the devs. how many work on pvp or not is something that the management decides not the devs, so blaming them is just wrong. how about a petition to the management instead? why no top player use its influence and start something like that? no they just repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat.. giving the devs time is the most ranting part of your post. in what position are the “top” players to determine a timeframe for delivering stuff?

i dont know if some of u hasnt programmed or worked on a greater projekt. but a lot of u guys dont seem to understand how hard it is and how much work is needed to change a certain design to another. blaming devs for the actual design is also bad. the ones u can blame are the designer. or the manager who signed that design for implementation.

and btw i claim nothing. i only believe that allie isnt lying if she says they invite players to chat via ventrilo but a lot hasnt appeared. on the other hand if i would be a dev, why should i talk to a person like helseth who, has yelled his balanceopinions via stream? i dont see any reason to ask further on that part.

wanna know what im find interesting? all the “top” players i know are some kiddy/ teens still on highschool or university, who claim the right and experience to judge about everything related to the game. even how long it should take to programm something and “that cant be so hard”.

hooma.9642:

Darkdanjal.3401:

…..

@Hooma: you keep on saying that every person out here is either arrogant to the devs or an rude person yet you have absolutely no clue have much effort these guys did before. They have talked to the devs, they have given time to the devs and yet they are claiming that all these players dont want to talk anymore, so they put effort in other resources like streams or youtube channels, yet you are claiming dont want to talk….
you should wake up for a change…you said it yourself you never even watched a post from helseth for example, and yeah he might be ranting a lot but instead of following the devs you should begin by following some of these players there stream, Helseth might be ranting but he does a great job in explaining what he does while he is playing solo queue

Also to close up sensotix interviewed top players, one of them was ashzene, even ashzene is saying in that vid that helseth did a great job in his rants what was wrong atm in the meta.

These players know what they are saying yet you are the one ranting that those players dont want to listen and dont want to talk, they did….and on more then one of an occasion. they wouldnt take the effort to talk about GW2 if they didnt care but even those players have their limits you know…

im sure anet devs know whats wrong with the game without ranting “top” players telling it on streams. balance is a other discussion.

im also sure that it doesnt help to be rude against the devs. how many work on pvp or not is something that the management decides not the devs, so blaming them is just wrong. how about a petition to the management instead? why no top player use its influence and start something like that? no they just repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat..

i dont know if some of u hasnt programmed or worked on a greater projekt. but a lot of u guys dont seem to understand how hard it is and how much work is needed to change a certain design to another. blaming devs for the actual design is also bad. the ones u can blame are the designer. or the manager who signed that design for implementation.

and btw i claim nothing. i only believe that allie isnt lying if she says they invite players to chat via ventrilo but a lot hasnt appeared. on the other hand if i would be a dev, why should i talk to a person like helseth who, has yelled his balanceopinions via stream? i dont see any reason to ask further on that part.

Is this like your 100000 post telling players nothing useful and just complaining and talking about stupid right’s when this is a forum for a PvP area of the game?

Honestly I agree with OP the Dev’s need to start listing the well weathered players who understand there class to the core, god knows how many time’s good idea’s have been crushed by newer players or players who aren’t even competing in the current meta.

Question I ask you do you even compete in the current meta? or are you just Solo Que hero, people talk about this is team game which it is then shouldn’t you be in Team Que where the real meta is????

To change the meta right now and make it much better place, I can think of 2 simple changes that would help.

Healing Signet – Scale with healing power so its still viable with bunker builds, active healing like every other class has to. Also by making it scale with healing power, will shift the meta to the point where if your a Bunker your not going to do much DPS not like its right now where you can Bunker and have insane burst

Work on thieves they are the real reason why no power builds can enter the meta anymore, you want Ele’s and Mesmer’s back into the meta, then you need to make so thieves can’t gib them in every team fight so easy.

These are my views coming from someone who does allot of Team Que where balance is allot better then Solo Que.

Ixl Super Ixl.7258:

The fact that about 90% of top 100 team queue leaderboard are not even in alpha testing says it all, not even Car Crash is in the alpha or any active team that is currently playing so I am not surprised if they take most of these balance changes from wvw players who know nothing about spvp, that’s mostly what’s ruining the balance…

I think they would do a much better job if only the devs decide on these balance changes rather than listen to pve/wvw players who know nothing about spvp since they don’t have any active top spvpers in the alpha…

I agree…
I talked to ben and he also said that most of the people he knows are not even in the alpha (even tho they are in the the top 50 for over 5 months have won several tournys etc)

The only Good players who are in alpha are TP and they don’t even play the game anymore so at the moment its pretty much all wvw/pve players helping balance the game…

Ixl Super Ixl.7258:

The only Good players who are in alpha are TP and they don’t even play the game anymore so at the moment its pretty much all wvw/pve players helping balance the game…

agreed as well

Ixl Super Ixl.7258:

The only Good players who are in alpha are TP and they don’t even play the game anymore so at the moment its pretty much all wvw/pve players helping balance the game…

im not in any alpha, don’t know where you got that information from.

I know for a fact that at least 4 of you guys are in alpha, but that’s not a problem in fact its a good thing but you guys don’t even play anymore. The fact is that over 90% of top 100 leaderboard are not on alpha which is why the balance patches are not tested properly. There are only 2 top teams who play the game “CM” AND “SHAD” and i know that 9 of them are not in alpha either. Ofcourse there are reasons for this “like some wvw players leaking patch notes and stuff” but I still think that there should be way more TOP Spvp players in alpha to help with the testing. I won’t be surprised if there will be no teams at all who play within 1-2 months if Anet stay at this rate of spvp development. It’s just that Pve is getting way more attention since it’s the only source that actually provide anet with $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Ixl Super Ixl.7258:

SNIP The fact is that over 90% of top 100 leaderboard are not on alpha which is why the balance patches are not tested properly. There are only 2 top teams who play the game “CM” AND “SHAD” and i know that 9 of them are not in alpha either. I won’t be surprised if there will be no teams at all who play within 1-2 months if Anet stay at this rate of spvp development. SNIP

If there’s one thing that should give ANet a wake-up call, it’s this. There is literally no competitive scene left anymore.

My worry is that ANet is looking at their metrics, seeing that new players are flocking to sPvP and that participation is up, and interprets that as a sign that PvP is healthy, and as a validation of their balancing direction. The reality could not be further from the truth. The only reason that numbers could be up (if they even are) is that infrastructure has been added since Spring in the form of the (broken) soloQ, and new players are trying that out. The current meta flat out does not support high-end competitive play.

Rewind back four-five months to the time before the Dhuumfire patch and PAX. Back then we had Mist League, and Europe had teams like Ugly, Pish, Made in Meta, Civilized Gentlemen and Paradigm, plus a bunch of others whose names escape me right now. It was a small scene, sure, but it felt like it could be going places. Fast forward to today, and what do we have? Zilch, nada, nothing. No scene.

The latest tournament (King of the Mists on October 19) was a hilarious testament to the current high level play. Disney Channel (Helseth & Co) ran a total troll comp without a bunker Guard and still had a very realistic shot at winning the whole thing. When a PUG makes it to the semifinal, you know there is no scene.

I’m not trying to offend anyone by the above, by the way. I just hope that ANet takes stock and realizes that the current meta does not support any form of serious competitive play. There is no incentive to get better if you can recruit a PUG 15 minutes before a tourney and still wreck face. That’s how the game is right now.

Aereniel.7356:

Ixl Super Ixl.7258:

SNIP The fact is that over 90% of top 100 leaderboard are not on alpha which is why the balance patches are not tested properly. There are only 2 top teams who play the game “CM” AND “SHAD” and i know that 9 of them are not in alpha either. I won’t be surprised if there will be no teams at all who play within 1-2 months if Anet stay at this rate of spvp development. SNIP

If there’s one thing that should give ANet a wake-up call, it’s this. There is literally no competitive scene left anymore.

My worry is that ANet is looking at their metrics, seeing that new players are flocking to sPvP and that participation is up, and interprets that as a sign that PvP is healthy, and as a validation of their balancing direction. The reality could not be further from the truth. The only reason that numbers could be up (if they even are) is that infrastructure has been added since Spring in the form of the (broken) soloQ, and new players are trying that out. The current meta flat out does not support high-end competitive play.

Rewind back four-five months to the time before the Dhuumfire patch and PAX. Back then we had Mist League, and Europe had teams like Ugly, Pish, Made in Meta, Civilized Gentlemen and Paradigm, plus a bunch of others whose names escape me right now. It was a small scene, sure, but it felt like it could be going places. Fast forward to today, and what do we have? Zilch, nada, nothing. No scene.

The latest tournament (King of the Mists on October 19) was a hilarious testament to the current high level play. Disney Channel (Helseth & Co) ran a total troll comp without a bunker Guard and still had a very realistic shot at winning the whole thing. When a PUG makes it to the semifinal, you know there is no scene.

I’m not trying to offend anyone by the above, by the way. I just hope that ANet takes stock and realizes that the current meta does not support any form of serious competitive play. There is no incentive to get better if you can recruit a PUG 15 minutes before a tourney and still wreck face. That’s how the game is right now.

yea i agree..that’s what i meant with listening to the wrong players i have heard it several times now that people who really understand the game don’t have access to the alpha forums and if they do they aren’t playing this game anymore…

New players are not flocking to pvp. The competitve scene is bad and so is the casual one at least in rated queues.

When people ask me the strengths of this game, I tell them the storyline, the writing, the slick and modern interface and addictive loot-kitten style PvE (think Diablo).

I tell them the weaknesses: the attempt to bring MOBA style combat to an MMO has almost entirely failed to appeal to the fans of MMO PvP, and not brought in very many MOBA players as far as I can tell. While it can still be fun, there’s less overall strategy and tactics in this game then the PvP MMOs I’ve played (WOW, WAR, DAOC) and the MOBAs I’ve played (LoL).

I guess my point is, why would you want them to listen to a tiny majority who is happy with the current design when it appears most players are not. Also, they’d be better off if they just gave up the dream of being an e-sport and tried to be a good PvP MMO (since WAR failed, and all the other games are aging, they have no competition in this space).

(Which, BTW, is why a lot of people are here… WoW is ancient, WAR failed, other games like RIFT/Tera/Aion don’t seem to take PvP that seriously to me and are also showing age)

Zosk.5609:

I tell them the weaknesses: the attempt to bring MOBA style combat to an MMO has almost entirely failed to appeal to the fans of MMO PvP, and not brought in very many MOBA players as far as I can tell. While it can still be fun, there’s less overall strategy and tactics in this game then the PvP MMOs I’ve played (WOW, WAR, DAOC) and the MOBAs I’ve played (LoL).

Because they never attempted that. If they had went for a MOBA-feel this game would have been a much greater success than what it is today.
The core mechanics, fluency and coding of the game is making a MOBA-style very possible. Unfortunately they went with low CD’s, spamming, no risk/reward and badly telegraphed skills.
The fundament is there, but they found out that sticking with the traditional MMO-feel would bring more dollars, since the majority of people in GW2 is playing PvE.

There are a lot of great posts about how to give the gameplay a moba-feel (if you want to call it that).
A small example would be:
Berserker Stance will for 4 seconds transfer all incoming conditions to the caster.
60 seconds CD.
Skills like this would make for a much more interesting gameplay.

Sol.4310:

hooma.9642:

Darkdanjal.3401:

…..

@Hooma: you keep on saying that every person out here is either arrogant to the devs or an rude person yet you have absolutely no clue have much effort these guys did before. They have talked to the devs, they have given time to the devs and yet they are claiming that all these players dont want to talk anymore, so they put effort in other resources like streams or youtube channels, yet you are claiming dont want to talk….
you should wake up for a change…you said it yourself you never even watched a post from helseth for example, and yeah he might be ranting a lot but instead of following the devs you should begin by following some of these players there stream, Helseth might be ranting but he does a great job in explaining what he does while he is playing solo queue

Also to close up sensotix interviewed top players, one of them was ashzene, even ashzene is saying in that vid that helseth did a great job in his rants what was wrong atm in the meta.

These players know what they are saying yet you are the one ranting that those players dont want to listen and dont want to talk, they did….and on more then one of an occasion. they wouldnt take the effort to talk about GW2 if they didnt care but even those players have their limits you know…

im sure anet devs know whats wrong with the game without ranting “top” players telling it on streams. balance is a other discussion.

im also sure that it doesnt help to be rude against the devs. how many work on pvp or not is something that the management decides not the devs, so blaming them is just wrong. how about a petition to the management instead? why no top player use its influence and start something like that? no they just repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat..

i dont know if some of u hasnt programmed or worked on a greater projekt. but a lot of u guys dont seem to understand how hard it is and how much work is needed to change a certain design to another. blaming devs for the actual design is also bad. the ones u can blame are the designer. or the manager who signed that design for implementation.

and btw i claim nothing. i only believe that allie isnt lying if she says they invite players to chat via ventrilo but a lot hasnt appeared. on the other hand if i would be a dev, why should i talk to a person like helseth who, has yelled his balanceopinions via stream? i dont see any reason to ask further on that part.

Is this like your 100000 post telling players nothing useful and just complaining and talking about stupid right’s when this is a forum for a PvP area of the game?

Honestly I agree with OP the Dev’s need to start listing the well weathered players who understand there class to the core, god knows how many time’s good idea’s have been crushed by newer players or players who aren’t even competing in the current meta.

Question I ask you do you even compete in the current meta? or are you just Solo Que hero, people talk about this is team game which it is then shouldn’t you be in Team Que where the real meta is????

To change the meta right now and make it much better place, I can think of 2 simple changes that would help.

Healing Signet – Scale with healing power so its still viable with bunker builds, active healing like every other class has to. Also by making it scale with healing power, will shift the meta to the point where if your a Bunker your not going to do much DPS not like its right now where you can Bunker and have insane burst

Work on thieves they are the real reason why no power builds can enter the meta anymore, you want Ele’s and Mesmer’s back into the meta, then you need to make so thieves can’t gib them in every team fight so easy.

These are my views coming from someone who does allot of Team Que where balance is allot better then Solo Que.

whats your problem?

Every one payed their 60 bucks just like every one else. = Every one has a right to provide input to this game.

Why should we let a handfull of people decide how this game is? Because they know better? Every single person is partial to their favored class, why would I listen to any one who wants to provide input when their personal opinions are not completley impartial. GW2 recieved my money for this game therefore GW2 can decide how it is balanced, and having an open ear to every one invloved is the only way it is fair and impartial. We live in a democracy, not communist society, we practice free market/religion/ and equality, Id like to keep it that way.

Let me be the one to let some of you in on a little secret. There is no big lie, there is no conspiracy, there is no big secret. The world is indifferent.

No offense man, but that is the most politically naive thing I’ve read in a while.

jmatb.6307:

No offense man, but that is the most politically naive thing I’ve read in a while.

Every one is making this a big deal like its the end of the world, I can be dramatic too.

My points are simple, fair and impartial is best policy for any organization.

I think in the end, Anet has the following approach to feedback. A bit less attractive in execution though

Hi all,

I just went trough the whole thing and i am deeply sad about Hooma behaviour.We have a game what we play day by day, we would be happy if we could improve it along with the devs and Hooma just started to troll, derailed the whole topic and tried everything to successfully bring this conversation down to a level of childish argument.
Honestly if you would want to hear some suggestion on your brand new laptop, who would you ask? Your grandmother? Probably she is an expert in it?I dont think so.You would ask your friend who has EXPERIENCE in it. Is this thing would make your grandmother less honorable person? Of course no! We are not the same. I am into PVE.Ask me about COE and i will happily tell you my experience.I dont have experience in PVP i never done it. This is makes me a less valuable player? No.
But seriously i wont go to the butcher to ask him about how to make bread.

This is about experience.If players dont know anything about pvp, they shouldnt design it.You will gain experience.One they maybe you will be a PVP champion.There is no 2 group.Just one. Players. We have our game. Some experienced player tried to suggest something and Hooma in the name of equality tried to sabotage this.This is what i can see.

Not everyone grow up on forums and can select the words carefully. Some of us just says what thinks at the first place. We should bann them for this?

Think , people.

Metaton.2308:

Hi all,

I just went trough the whole thing and i am deeply sad about Hooma behaviour.We have a game what we play day by day, we would be happy if we could improve it along with the devs and Hooma just started to troll, derailed the whole topic and tried everything to successfully bring this conversation down to a level of childish argument.
Honestly if you would want to hear some suggest about your brand new laptop, who would you ask? Your grandmother? Probably she is an expert in it?I dont think so.You would ask your friend who has EXPERIENCE in it. Is this thing would make your grandmother less honorable person? Of course no! We are not the same. I am into PVE.Ask me about COE and i will happily tell you my experience.I dont have experience in PVP i never done it. This is makes me a less valuable player? No.
But seriously i wont go to the butcher to ask him about hiw to make bread.

This is about experience.If players dont know anything about pvp, they shouldnt design it.You will gain experience.One they maybe you will be a PVP champion.There is no 2 group.Just one. Players. We have a game. Some experienced player tried to suggest something and Hooma in the name of equality tried to sabotage this.This is what i can see.

Not everyone grow up on forums and can select the words carefully. Some of us just say what thinks at the first place. We should bann them for this?

Think , people.

There’s a few reasons why Hooma actually makes a good point. There’s a big issue with elitism here. Regardless if it’s for the better or the worse, who is to say that a guy playing in high end play has better feedback than a guy who’s just played casually?

You don’t know. It’s just a much better chance it seems if you rely on the guy who’s played more. I do not want to play with chance and I don’t want to allow only a select number of people at the top to be able to represent the whole pvp base. You are basically creating a system where you totally exclude the a huge majority of the players. You could also say that there’s a bigger chance to have tunnel vision at the top because you see the same team comps over and over again. Is it effective or is it just a lack of creativity?

I guess it’s ok if you’ll be willing to toss your pvp future in the hands of those you idolize as great players, but maybe think for yourself and make sense about what’s actually imbalanced and balanced then trust that Anet is going to at least address it.

Edit: And a lot of the metaphors you use relates to asking someone who has no relation to what you asked. Grandma doesn’t use laptop, Butcher does not make bread—but all players who post here I would think plays spvp. So it’s better to make a comparison to local bread store to a bread franchise. And let’s face it, we’ve had some pretty good bread, even better than franchise bread at these local stores.