Guild Wars 2

I think there is a reason why you go to see the doctor and not just ask your friend and buy medication from the street. This reason is called Elitism. You are elitist then cos you not trust in your friend or in case of your laptop in your grandmother. I havent said casual players shouldnt be listened.What I am saying is experience means experience.
You would choose an unexperienced doctor to operate you? Aww you are elitist.:)

Metaton.2308:

I think there is a reason why you go to see the doctor and not just ask your friend and buy medication from the street. This reason is called Elitism. You are elitist then cos you not trust in your friend or in case of your laptop in your grandmother. I havent said casual players shouldnt be listened.What I am saying is experience means experience.
You would choose an unexperienced doctor to operate you? Aww you are elitist.:)

I think you are using the wrong metaphors again. How does letting others speak their ideas to someone related to asking someone inexperienced to operate on you? The receiving party is Anet, so the person asking for a doctor would be Anet. Now the doctor is also not a good representation because Anet is the one who can fix it.

So let’s say Anet released a product that’s being used by customers. He has customers who’ve thoroughly used all the features of the product and made a great business off of it, but it’s lacking in some things the business wants to expand to. On the other hand, he also has customers who’ve casually used a subset of those features.

Should Anet reject all of the minor users and only listen to the users who’ve somewhat mastered their product? This thread is saying toss all the minor users aside because they don’t know what’s good for them. But in fact, what the experienced users want may not be of any use to the minor users.

This is really a trust issue with you and other people who don’t think Anet can discern what’s good and bad for this game—as if they do not have eyes that can see and ears that cannot hear.

I have my issues with Anet, but it’s because they are slow. Not because they are incompetent.

You got your point about ideas.Everyone can have good ideas. However when you talk about balance issues in pvp i am sure top pvp ers knows better than a casual gamer what causing balance issues.

Hello as a wrong playerbase player I would like to ask Anet to post the projection on the graphic that shows exactly if they really did it with purpose and analysis the time that is projected to be needed in order to reach spvp ranks 80 for any casual player that plays like 2hours per day. SERIOUSLY or you are really really bad in calculations OR you just gave us exponential leveling spvp system in order not to have to create/work/implement better system nor release any new content on the long term as a first intend. If you would have implement pve leveling with such exponential leveling system there would be no level 80 players yet… It’s broken system that noone enjoy it’s no fun useless ranking points linked to capture points mechanism that is ridiculously and incredibly not rewarding. Another graph about the game incomes of people focusing only spvp comparing to other game contents would make a huge scandal.
You know very well what I am talking about and It’s really lame…
I did give a try on spvp for 3 weeks in order to reach lvl40 tiger rank. If I would be on this game mode earlier in game history I would already be asking about Fixing this beyond broken game spvp leveling mechanism. I don’t get it that noone ever scream about it, seriously this content need to be rework and balance (class balance is one thing but here I talk about balancing the time spent playing / leveling => Exponential is time consuming with no significants rewards and can’t be fun for anyone)
So Anet policy : play every content like you enjoy but in WvW we give 10k wxp rankings linked to each character. Finishers plays spvp like 2years long leveling 8H/day. People who release such stuffs need to check this : http://www.iqtest.com/

@Sensotix and everyone else on that side of the discussion (included myself),
we can try to give as many good ideas as we can think of, but there are so many in this forums already.
The sad story is that its not about who can contribute more to the game with ideas, but who can contribute more with moneys. Top pvp players may be those who know better how to fix the game, but as you said, they are the 5% of the total game population, which means that whos contributing more is the other 95%.
Having the game fixed also means that it would be harder for noobs to be succesfull, cause a better game requires more skillplay rather then skillspam, and you know… that 95% might not exactly want that.
I have seen this story in every other game i played, such fixes requires some work and, on their perspective, doesnt give certainty of being the right thing to do, so…. as far as the game game goes on, they dont take that risk, and they will keep doing little changes.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

I think you are using the wrong metaphors again. How does letting others speak their ideas to someone related to asking someone inexperienced to operate on you?

There is actually a huge body of work in statistics which talks about this very issue and forms a fundamental cornerstone in the field. Essentially, a guy named Frank Ramsey mathematically proved that it’s true people have beliefs, but most people don’t really believe in those beliefs unless they take them truly seriously. You might yell at your monitor when your computer is acting up, but do you really believe that the computer will respond to you? Of course not, so why do you yell at your computer? In fact, most of your beliefs (and mine) are ill-considered, but it’s because you’re not a fool. Your time and energy are limited and it would make more sense to just pick ideas from a few well-chosen areas. Thus we go to a guy who knows a lot about computers, not your grandma who knows very little, to get advice for your new laptop. Fortunately though, most of our beliefs really don’t matter. You can believe in the most outlandish ideas in the PvP game of guild wars 2, but that still doesn’t make you a bad player at PvE. You can still be a great person to talk to.

So you may not believe in what an upper level players have to say (or be wishy-washy about it), but at the very least don’t believe if you press your accelerator in your car, your car will stop – it’s important to at least get that right.

Quite frankly, most people (especially on video games) really don’t take themselves very seriously or treat what they advocate as important. They may think they do, they may say they do, but they really don’t. So in a world like gaming, experience holds a lot of weight to help reveal the true beliefs of a person and how seriously they treat their posts. Thus it is a “safe bet” to assume that most people who truly take the time and energy to deeply think hard about some topic, will end up with a quality conclusion.

Thus this is the reason why you get metaphors about how at the very least please don’t accept plastic surgery from a “doctor” from Mexico, from other players.

YES, I love this thread. You sir have nailed it right on the head 10,000 points for you my friend. Better quality alpha testers maybe or idk how they do it, but tbh majority of players in gw2 are pve and couldn’t fight there way out of a paper bag. The OP Imba builds start with that 10% slowly making it into the majority. Bravo sir Bravo!!!

Leadfoot.9071:

Darkdanjal.3401:

This is in my opinion the whole point of sensotix his topic

I respect your opinion, but the whole point of this thread was to suggest that the devs should ignore 90% and only listen to the “top 10%” (in quotes because I personally do not believe there is a deterministic measurement in place to even accurately determine this and therefore is completely subjective). I respect Sensotix’s opinion and appreciate his videos and guides as well – I just disagree with the premise of this topic and felt hooma deserved props for calling it out.

when youve playing more than 11 games in team or solo que then your opinion will have some weight, dont get involved in discussions when you dont have a clue what your talkin about.

Chicago Jack.5647:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

I think you are using the wrong metaphors again. How does letting others speak their ideas to someone related to asking someone inexperienced to operate on you?

There is actually a huge body of work in statistics which talks about this very issue and forms a fundamental cornerstone in the field. Essentially, a guy named Frank Ramsey mathematically proved that it’s true people have beliefs, but most people don’t really believe in those beliefs unless they take them truly seriously. You might yell at your monitor when your computer is acting up, but do you really believe that the computer will respond to you? Of course not, so why do you yell at your computer? In fact, most of your beliefs (and mine) are ill-considered, but it’s because you’re not a fool. Your time and energy are limited and it would make more sense to just pick ideas from a few well-chosen areas. Thus we go to a guy who knows a lot about computers, not your grandma who knows very little, to get advice for your new laptop. Fortunately though, most of our beliefs really don’t matter. You can believe in the most outlandish ideas in the PvP game of guild wars 2, but that still doesn’t make you a bad player at PvE. You can still be a great person to talk to.

So you may not believe in what an upper level players have to say (or be wishy-washy about it), but at the very least don’t believe if you press your accelerator in your car, your car will stop – it’s important to at least get that right.

Quite frankly, most people (especially on video games) really don’t take themselves very seriously or treat what they advocate as important. They may think they do, they may say they do, but they really don’t. So in a world like gaming, experience holds a lot of weight to help reveal the true beliefs of a person and how seriously they treat their posts. Thus it is a “safe bet” to assume that most people who truly take the time and energy to deeply think hard about some topic, will end up with a quality conclusion.

Thus this is the reason why you get metaphors about how at the very least please don’t accept plastic surgery from a “doctor” from Mexico, from other players.

What I’ve stated beforehand already aligns with what you are saying, and I understand that reasoning. But it’s still a bad metaphor. I don’t think the suggestions and/or comments from non-LB players are on the low end of the spectrum of being a third world doctor, who isn’t as educated and/or lacks the tools to improve their results. Revisiting that metaphor though, when you commit to a doctor, they are the ones who fix you. I don’t think the main point of this thread was to let LB players dictate what gets changed and whatnot, but open a dedicated channel of communication between these players and Anet—a consultant per say. I’m actually okay with that and it seems like that’s something they’ve already been doing. I am just not okay with neglecting others who aren’t necessarily LB, but not necessarily fresh inot the mists either. Might as well just not have a spvp thread right?

Jomo kenyatta.7351:

Leadfoot.9071:

Darkdanjal.3401:

This is in my opinion the whole point of sensotix his topic

I respect your opinion, but the whole point of this thread was to suggest that the devs should ignore 90% and only listen to the “top 10%” (in quotes because I personally do not believe there is a deterministic measurement in place to even accurately determine this and therefore is completely subjective). I respect Sensotix’s opinion and appreciate his videos and guides as well – I just disagree with the premise of this topic and felt hooma deserved props for calling it out.

when youve playing more than 11 games in team or solo que then your opinion will have some weight, dont get involved in discussions when you dont have a clue what your talkin about.

You don’t need to play more than 11 games to know that exclusion will lead down a dark path. Sad to see an army of entitled elitists already forming though. gl in your ventures

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Jomo kenyatta.7351:

Leadfoot.9071:

Darkdanjal.3401:

This is in my opinion the whole point of sensotix his topic

I respect your opinion, but the whole point of this thread was to suggest that the devs should ignore 90% and only listen to the “top 10%” (in quotes because I personally do not believe there is a deterministic measurement in place to even accurately determine this and therefore is completely subjective). I respect Sensotix’s opinion and appreciate his videos and guides as well – I just disagree with the premise of this topic and felt hooma deserved props for calling it out.

when youve playing more than 11 games in team or solo que then your opinion will have some weight, dont get involved in discussions when you dont have a clue what your talkin about.

You don’t need to play more than 11 games to know that exclusion will lead down a dark path. Sad to see an army of entitled elitists already forming though. gl in your ventures

Not really elitist though is it. Literally this forums is full of people who don’t even pvp in this game. And they tell everyone to l2p or that this/that isn’t overpowered. It is a joke. There is so much misinformation. You do need to actually play pvp to have an insight into it. That is a fact

Lordrosicky.5813:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Jomo kenyatta.7351:

Leadfoot.9071:

Darkdanjal.3401:

This is in my opinion the whole point of sensotix his topic

I respect your opinion, but the whole point of this thread was to suggest that the devs should ignore 90% and only listen to the “top 10%” (in quotes because I personally do not believe there is a deterministic measurement in place to even accurately determine this and therefore is completely subjective). I respect Sensotix’s opinion and appreciate his videos and guides as well – I just disagree with the premise of this topic and felt hooma deserved props for calling it out.

when youve playing more than 11 games in team or solo que then your opinion will have some weight, dont get involved in discussions when you dont have a clue what your talkin about.

You don’t need to play more than 11 games to know that exclusion will lead down a dark path. Sad to see an army of entitled elitists already forming though. gl in your ventures

Not really elitist though is it. Literally this forums is full of people who don’t even pvp in this game. And they tell everyone to l2p or that this/that isn’t overpowered. It is a joke. There is so much misinformation. You do need to actually play pvp to have an insight into it. That is a fact

I would agree with you on that, but being called out by making a non-balance related statement is somewhat annoying. I know LeadFoot and he is a competent player, but by no means did he say anything related to balance.

I’ve played at least 12 games so I guess I can weigh in…

ANET has stated that they many development decisions are dependant across all three game modes (PVE, WvW, PvP). Assuming this is not going to change then I think it’s a safe assumption that ANET will consider input from all people, from all game mode. Good or bad, this population and is the majority and clearly has implications for PvP.

I’m one of the 90% that may not be an expert, but I feel like I can offer a lot of suggestions that might represent the new player trying to get into and learn PVP – and that is an issue that’s been discussed on these forums before. If ANET only listened to expert then what effect does that have on the newbie population? Hard to say, but I’d feel better if there was newbie representation in those suggestions.

And, to reiterate a point above (ArcTheFallen), ANET is the only one that can fix the issues so ANET is ultimately the one to decide if an idea is good or bad – whether this comes from the experts or the rest of the population.

Everyone should have a say.

Its not about just listening to everyone both casuals and hardcore its bout listening to the right players when it comes to balance and more casual suggestions.

You cant balance a game when you want to do both a favour for casuals and hardcore players and if you want to add balance for PVE, PVP and WVW at the same times its just not possible to do that. Its hard enough as it is and I respect that.

But I feel like the devs arent listening to the top players as each balance change is just completely off the point, some examples: s/d thief instead of nerfing the endless evade they just take a boon off and give the IMMO stacking like what…???? This is just one of the examples and before I get a flame rage from the casual players I want to clerify myself once again.

Casual players should have an input, it wouldnt be ok that Anet devs arent listening to everyone but for balance they should listen to the top players (in my opinion)…this is off course for the devs to decide to know which direction they want to go…they want to make it more casual or more hardcore, either take one of those and not both because again its not possible to do both.

i think the biggest issue is also the 3 game modes. each one of them requires different balancing. it used to be much better when they separated spvp from wvw balance. also certain runes and sigil should not make it into wvw at all. also costume brawling skills that give u fast speed or swiftness in wvw.etc

some examples:

people in spvp are whining about mesmers:
anet listenes and states mesmers are in agood spot.
then the wvw mesmer is at a very very bad spot, so wvw mesmers are more like no we are not ok, we lack survivability, swiftness, clones die too fast, we lack aoe, lots of builds dont work in wvw and we are just veilbots.
then the roamer jumps in and states, now i have no problem at all…well yes u can use an spvp build for roaming……..

then there is the warrior:
warriors were terrible, horrible nonviable in spvp. anet listened and buffed……too much
now in spvp the warrior is top and wvw absolutely over powered…..
anet is happy, because they are not as op in spvp as they are in wvw.

ranger:
had its ups and downs in spvp, never really popular in wvw. then they got strong in spvp. anet listened and nerfed. now ranger is up in wvw, but still stable in spvp.

the problem is the 3 modes. u bring pve stuff into wvw that arent exactly pvp balanced. u balance all the classes according to spvp 1v1 which hurts certain classes a lot in wvw.

honestly anet: please rework mesmer completely. get rid of a lot of our ai stuff(less whiners in spvp, doesent matter in wvw as it is absolutely useless) and give us viable aoe that doesnt require ai at all! we are a light armor class and making a light armor a duelist only is just not working at a ll in wvw.

tone us down so we can get buffs for wvw where we really need it…and no mantras are not the answer at all. go fight in a zerg with your mesmer.
build variety is terrible. check the gw1 mesmer.

split wvw and spvp balance and stop bringing pve stuff into wvw before tested!!!!!!!!!!,

This topic seems to hit on the issue at a very superficial level.

Now lets rephrase the question. What qualities are sought out in a person in regards to their ability to give feedback?

I am sure arena net already has an answer to this question which isn’t just limited to player skill. I’ll let you guys provide your answers first before I provide my own along with a system which would help with making the process of collecting feedback more efficient.

I think that problem is that u have small amount of players who are capable thinking out of the box and invest time in theory crafting and making new builds,
and then u have even smaller amount of players who are capable of really using some undiscovered potential build.

Most of new players come to forum and say “can some1 post best pvp build”?
Then they go directly to spvp not hot join get demolished or easy win with even comprehending basics and say this build doesn’t work or is op.
(leader board is evidence of this)

Maybe word “top” players is not correct ,but experienced players should have a better view on pvp then some1 who just played 50-100 games and comes saying something is op or fail.

Besides balancing classes Anet has to balance customers reviews and maintain large experienced player base and still have newcomers.
Slow and painful process and not very successful at the moment

The only people who would make good testers are those who actively play, can think critically (ie don’t assume they are always right), and listen to not only the top 10%, but the “bottom” 90% as well.

And @Krafty: although I agree that people should be able to voice their opinions, I don’t think people often stop and consider their own opinions, their own performance, or the health of the game when forming them. If they put no effort into forming their opinions, I have a hard time putting effort into listening to them. Especially when they sound more like cries than opinions. But that’s just me.

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Lordrosicky.5813:

ArcTheFallen.7682:

Jomo kenyatta.7351:

Leadfoot.9071:

Darkdanjal.3401:

This is in my opinion the whole point of sensotix his topic

I respect your opinion, but the whole point of this thread was to suggest that the devs should ignore 90% and only listen to the “top 10%” (in quotes because I personally do not believe there is a deterministic measurement in place to even accurately determine this and therefore is completely subjective). I respect Sensotix’s opinion and appreciate his videos and guides as well – I just disagree with the premise of this topic and felt hooma deserved props for calling it out.

when youve playing more than 11 games in team or solo que then your opinion will have some weight, dont get involved in discussions when you dont have a clue what your talkin about.

You don’t need to play more than 11 games to know that exclusion will lead down a dark path. Sad to see an army of entitled elitists already forming though. gl in your ventures

Not really elitist though is it. Literally this forums is full of people who don’t even pvp in this game. And they tell everyone to l2p or that this/that isn’t overpowered. It is a joke. There is so much misinformation. You do need to actually play pvp to have an insight into it. That is a fact

I would agree with you on that, but being called out by making a non-balance related statement is somewhat annoying. I know LeadFoot and he is a competent player, but by no means did he say anything related to balance.

Yeah exactly, all I’m saying is that 1) there isn’t really even any definitive way right now of identifying “top players” – its all subjective and 2) even if you could, that doens’t mean you should immediately ignore advice from everybody else. I also agree with Lords point and obviously you have to sift through all the crap on here and identify the good points – just saying that a player’s status should not completely exclude their points. And thanks Arc, always a pleasure to play with you guys hope to do it again soon.

Also, don’t want to sound like I’m bashing on Sensotix at all either – he’s a good player clearly and I do believe his goal is to help the game and the community and I really appreciate his efforts. I just disagreed with him on his original point, which he has now reworded to be a bit less dividing.

Titan.3472:

Hello as a wrong playerbase player I would like to ask Anet to post the projection on the graphic that shows exactly if they really did it with purpose and analysis the time that is projected to be needed in order to reach spvp ranks 80 for any casual player that plays like 2hours per day. SERIOUSLY or you are really really bad in calculations OR you just gave us exponential leveling spvp system in order not to have to create/work/implement better system nor release any new content on the long term as a first intend. If you would have implement pve leveling with such exponential leveling system there would be no level 80 players yet… It’s broken system that noone enjoy it’s no fun useless ranking points linked to capture points mechanism that is ridiculously and incredibly not rewarding. Another graph about the game incomes of people focusing only spvp comparing to other game contents would make a huge scandal.
You know very well what I am talking about and It’s really lame…
I did give a try on spvp for 3 weeks in order to reach lvl40 tiger rank. If I would be on this game mode earlier in game history I would already be asking about Fixing this beyond broken game spvp leveling mechanism. I don’t get it that noone ever scream about it, seriously this content need to be rework and balance (class balance is one thing but here I talk about balancing the time spent playing / leveling => Exponential is time consuming with no significants rewards and can’t be fun for anyone)
So Anet policy : play every content like you enjoy but in WvW we give 10k wxp rankings linked to each character. Finishers plays spvp like 2years long leveling 8H/day. People who release such stuffs need to check this : http://www.iqtest.com/

Since you have no significant reward from rank(sic) why do you care? If you are seeing it that way and considering that nobody is forcing you to reach higher ranks, your complain doesn’t make any sense.

Funny how ppl think if they played some pvp games they’re qualified. Even with 1’000 games you’re not. This makes 3 games per day, that’s nothing. Also a joke is how ppl only play one class and think they can argue from a objective point of view. You’re not. So how can your suggestions have any weight? They don’t because you have not experienced the whole mode. And that has nothing to do with elitism, it’s just about spent time, effort and dedication.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Funny how ppl think if they played some pvp games they’re qualified. Even with 1’000 games you’re not. This makes 3 games per day, that’s nothing. Also a joke is how ppl only play one class and think they can argue from a objective point of view. You’re not. So how can your suggestions have any weight? They don’t because you have not experienced the whole mode. And that has nothing to do with elitism, it’s just about spent time, effort and dedication.

I agree
Nice to see you on the forums empa

Cogbyrn.7283:

think critically (ie don’t assume they are always right), and listen to not only the top 10%, but the “bottom” 90% as well.

That is so rare.
And as a sidenote, ideally they shouldn’t just that they listen to everyone, but most importantly, not put their own wants in front of the rest….

People like that are worth their weight in gold.

You could be a top 5% PvP and completely destroy a game if you don’t put others needs in front of your own…
That’s why I think this thread is silly, being good at a game doesn’t make you good at fixing it. They do understand the game, there is no doubt, but whether or not they have the mentality necessary… that’s entirely up in the air.

I am anet is actually listening to no players at all .. i would love to change the title but it would be too long

Why do you bump this weird thread anyway?

Just create a new one in which you can say again that you are among the best players.

You have my full support, Senseo!

Noc.2459:

Why do you bump this weird thread anyway?

Just create a new one in which you can say again that you are among the best players.

You have my full support, Senseo!

i am lazy and its not worth my time

Senso u have my support always but is time to say enough , dont waste your time .

Forsaker.9213:

Senso u have my support always but is time to say enough , dont waste your time .

yea i kind of switched to hearthstone until this game gets better

But...but...esports?