Guild Wars 2

Jasher.6580:

You are bad. Moa is fine.

Awesome reasoning, as usual.

sorrow.2364:

Jasher.6580:

You are bad. Moa is fine.

Awesome reasoning, as usual.

He just said none of those are counters. How are they not counters? He said name one skill outside of Dodge which countered Moa. And I did… he then went on to say that none of them did.

That was bad… and Moa is fine.

Jasher.6580:

He just said none of those are counters. How are they not counters? He said name one skill outside of Dodge which countered Moa. And I did… he then went on to say that none of them did.

That was bad… and Moa is fine.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/counter

v.tr.
1. To meet or return (a blow) by another blow.
2. To move or act in opposition to; oppose.
3. To offer in response: countered that she was too busy to be thorough.
v.intr.
To move, act, or respond so as to be in opposition.

What you’ve listed are not counters, they are preventions (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prevention).

All skill in this game can be prevented, not so many can be countered.
Entangle, for instance, can be countered by killing the vines or prevented by dodging the skill.
Signet of Rage can be prevented by interrupting the casting or countered by stripping the boons.
Moa Morph, as it is now, has no counter.

sorrow.2364:

Jasher.6580:

He just said none of those are counters. How are they not counters? He said name one skill outside of Dodge which countered Moa. And I did… he then went on to say that none of them did.

That was bad… and Moa is fine.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/counter

v.tr.
1. To meet or return (a blow) by another blow.
2. To move or act in opposition to; oppose.
3. To offer in response: countered that she was too busy to be thorough.
v.intr.
To move, act, or respond so as to be in opposition.

What you’ve listed are not counters, they are preventions (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/prevention).

All skill in this game can be prevented, not so many can be countered.
Entangle, for instance, can be countered by killing the vines or prevented by dodging the skill.
Signet of Rage can be prevented by interrupting the casting or countered by stripping the boons.
Moa Morph, as it is now, has no counter.

lol… oh semantics. He mentioned “dodge” as being the only “counter” so I was going along that vein of reasoning.

Well then… there are various ways to “prevent” it.

Counter to moa? like hard counter?… Hmm I guess the counter is that your opponent is bad for running it in the first place and you can reset the fight if it’s 1v1 and come back and stomp him…

If it’s done in a team situation you can still use 4 AOE WEAKNESS and 5 GTFO button+2 dodges most of the time.

AOE weakness is pretty op imho.. I don’t think any class gets an AOE weakness for 3.5 seconds.

Don’t you dare touch my moa. I’m using it on jade maw tentacles.

Jasher.6580:

lol… oh semantics. He mentioned “dodge” as being the only “counter” so I was going along that vein of reasoning.

Well then… there are various ways to “prevent” it.

Prevention is not enough when we’re talking about a skill that shut you down for 10s.
Any heavy CC in this game has a counter (stunbreaker), except Moa. I see no reason of why Moa shouldn’t have a counter.

sorrow.2364:

Jasher.6580:

lol… oh semantics. He mentioned “dodge” as being the only “counter” so I was going along that vein of reasoning.

Well then… there are various ways to “prevent” it.

Prevention is not enough when we’re talking about a skill that shut you down for 10s.
Any heavy CC in this game has a counter (stunbreaker), except Moa. I see no reason of why Moa shouldn’t have a counter.

He doesn’t understand a difference. But thanks for trying to enlighten him.

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

Maybe we could say moa is a bit… silly.

They should change it for something more awesome.

Like… an eliste phantasm, which is not shattered and does something cool.

What about… SUMMON SLENDERMAN?XD

That is awesome.XD

Yea please give me thieves guild with 2 duelists who don’t shatter.

Darnis.4056:

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

LOL@Guardian Tomes! Really now?

dodge the skill, block the skill, interrupt the skill, blind the mesmer, obstruct line of sight, etc

Aza.2105:

Darnis.4056:

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

LOL@Guardian Tomes! Really now?

Better then moa? yea, Id say they are…

I think people in this thread don’t realize that moa is a troll skill that is more of a novelty than a useful skill.

Honestly, any mes that takes moa over time warp or mad invis is gimping his team even more.

moa is not that good a mesmer used it on me and i pecked him to death the squeel skill is pretty strong he was already at 50% hp but still i didn’t expect to beat him as moa.

Darnis.4056:

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

And here’s a list of counters for every Elive you’ve listed:

• Thieves’ Guild: kill the thieves with AoE, they are kinda squishy
• Entangle: just destroy the vines.
• Spirit of Nature: kill the spirit
• Lich Form: focus the Necromancer, as he has no healing skill while in Lich Form
• Plague: same as Lich Form, but here you can just ignore him trying to stay out of the PBAoE, since the damage output is rather low
• Guardian Tomes: do someone actually use them?
• Supply Drop: kill the turrets with AoE and stunbreak the initial stun effect
• Time Warp: move the fight away from the AoE, not that much of a counter btw, but it is a buff more than an offense, so counter are supposed to be more soft
• Mass Invisibility: guesstimate enemy position with AoEs. Same as above, not a reliable counter since it is a buff, but might works

As you can clearly see, every single Elite you’ve mentioned has a counter, with a notable exception of Moa Morph.

You get Moa’ed. Either you run away or you eat the mesmer’s burst. In both cases, Mesmer wins. No counter found.

Eliyahu.1467:

I think people in this thread don’t realize that moa is a troll skill that is more of a novelty than a useful skill.

Honestly, any mes that takes moa over time warp or mad invis is gimping his team even more.

Please, stop with this “Moa is useless” joke.
Moa is not useless.
Most Mesmer, high-level and average, have Moa Morph on they bar because that skill is amazingly strong in small-scale fights.

“Most Mesmer, high-level and average, have Moa Morph on they bar because that skill is amazingly strong in small-scale fights.”

Ha ha.. oh wow.

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

Well, if your teammate runs away too, you will have just lost 10 seconds.

And… well, elites often change the outcome of a fight, but they are on a long cooldown. And mostly in small fights. And in 1v1 you won’t be too much damaged. Thieves’ guild is much more annoying.

redslion.9675:

Well, if your teammate runs away too, you will have just lost 10 seconds.

And… well, elites often change the outcome of a fight, but they are on a long cooldown. And mostly in small fights. And in 1v1 you won’t be too much damaged. Thieves’ guild is much more annoying.

Yeah, but most elites have a counter. Moa has not.
If you get Moa’ed in a 1vs1, you are doomed, unless enemy Mesmer is extremely bad.

sorrow.2364:

redslion.9675:

Well, if your teammate runs away too, you will have just lost 10 seconds.

And… well, elites often change the outcome of a fight, but they are on a long cooldown. And mostly in small fights. And in 1v1 you won’t be too much damaged. Thieves’ guild is much more annoying.

Yeah, but most elites have a counter. Moa has not.
If you get Moa’ed in a 1vs1, you are doomed, unless enemy Mesmer is extremely bad.

Well, this if I need to fight. If not, I usually manage to escape, unless I’m heavily outnumbered.
And mesmer usually doesn’t have a reason to chase me. The worst that can happen is that he caps my point. I can then force him off with force.

Well, maybe if you build glass cannon, but I don’t like glass cannons.XD

Darnis.4056:

Aza.2105:

Darnis.4056:

Moa is the least powerful elite skill on a 180 cooldown..

Thieve’s guild
Entangle
Spirit of nature
Lich form
Plague
Guardian Tomes.
Crate
Timewarp
Mass Invis

All of these elites are way better then moa

LOL@Guardian Tomes! Really now?

Better then moa? yea, Id say they are…

Guardian tomes are better on paper only. Realistically and practically they aren’t. Transformations are just too clunky to compete with normal skills. I’d say it would be better if you could use utilities with them.

redslion.9675:

Well, this if I need to fight. If not, I usually manage to escape, unless I’m heavily outnumbered.
And mesmer usually doesn’t have a reason to chase me. The worst that can happen is that he caps my point. I can then force him off with force.

Well, maybe if you build glass cannon, but I don’t like glass cannons.XD

Well, if you are leaving the fight, the Mesmer has won the encounter in any case.

If he was defending a node (quite unlikely), he succeded to hold you off for 10s, more than enough to let a teammate come to help him.

If he was assaulting a point and you were defending, then he has a sure decap or even a full cap. He won the encounter.

If he is attacking a contested point by you, then he succeed to cap it back.

So, leaving the fight is the only chance you have. The mesmer wins. If you’re not leaving, then you’re going to die to mesmer burst. The mesmer wins.

And this without counting the fact that Moa Morph cancels any other transformation elite (Plague, Lich, Tomes, Tornado etc) and kill any utility AI entity (minions, spirits, spirit weapons etc). That’s too much for a single skill.

Oh this thread is still going, I feared it would get lost in all the spam earlier today.

Just got turned 5 times into a moa in one tpvp match. So frustrating and making my build absolutly useless.

Moa is a badly designed skill, is toxic, and should be removed and replaced with an actually decent elite for Mesmers. It isn’t OP in any way, but it is way too strong when it lands, and way too weak when it doesn’t; compared to nearly every other Elite which can’t be so easily voided, yet still retain counterplay when it goes off.

Its very OP if it lands, a bunker guardian without his skills is usually dead if it lands

The skill is fine as is. It doesn’t need a nerf or a buff.

So when will this skill finnaly be removed from PVP? Its the main reason why I never play more PVP than needed for the daily achievements.

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

You know what’s awesome when a dumb dumb mesmer moas the bunker and the bunker sits and facetanks everything while attacking with the moa skills just because TROLOLOLOL

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

You know what’s awesome when a dumb dumb mesmer moas the bunker and the bunker sits and facetanks everything while attacking with the moa skills just because TROLOLOLOL

So your suggestion for the bunker, whose main role is to defend the capture point, is to leave the capture point free for the mesmer?

^Looks like it. But I came to the conclusion that sPvP is broken beyond repair. As soon as there is a 2vs2 or more you can hardly do anything except spamming all skills you have because all the skill effect spam and minions make it impossible to see what is going on.

The main problem to me is that it’s the same animation as a lot of phantasm summons, especially iBerserker and also the same as Mass Invis. Whenever I see someone moa’ing I think they use MI and I don’t dodge. I rarely die in Moa though. And I don’t really mind it.

Moa shouldn’t be reomved.. It can be frustrating in the begining, when ur not familiar with the game enough but after 1 year, for me, it’s basically 10seconds of breath and to plan what to do when I’m out of parott form. I don’t remember when I died in moa form in 1v1, I just don’t. Still got 2 dodges + 5. U just use terrain as advantage.
Moa is not op at all, it can be more dangerous in 2 or 3v1 but it’s still possible to survive it. So not op at all, why remove?

If Moa gets removed from PvP, what’s its use then?
Morphing some PvE creature in another PvE creature?
For fun, Somteimes i morph moas into moas by using moa morph…Yo Dawg!

The biggest thing, Moa Morph gives the Mesmer, is basicly, that the enemy cant use stunbreaks / condi remove anymore. Btw, if you morph your enemy into Moa, withou having an imobilize ready, you gonna have a bad time.

The big disadvantage of Moa is, that it has a relative long casttime and REALY OFTEN fails, as you get blinded / the skill gets blocked / enemy dodges.

A big problem is, that mesmer basicly has no real other “good” Elite skills for 1 vs 1 / small battles. Sure, Mass invisibilty and Time Warp are nice, but both are a waste in 1 vs 1, especiall Mass invisibilty: 90s cd for some seconds of stealth? Decoy is far better in 1 vs 1.

I would be willing to trait Moa Morph into something like the warrior elite sigil, any ranger, engeneers supply crate or Guradians renewed focus.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

You know what’s awesome when a dumb dumb mesmer moas the bunker and the bunker sits and facetanks everything while attacking with the moa skills just because TROLOLOLOL

So your suggestion for the bunker, whose main role is to defend the capture point, is to leave the capture point free for the mesmer?

Ummm no. My point is bunkers should be built well enough that even if they get moa’d at full health then they should be able to survive 10s. With the support of teammates it should be even easier. My engi easily survived it several times even with focus fire.

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

sorrow.2364:

Yeah, turning a 2vs2 fight into a 2vs1 + chicken is absolutely useless and unwanted.
Like Moa can’t change the output of a fight in just a single cast.

Guardian tomes are definitely better.

Now, tell me when we should stop with jokes and getting a little bit more serious.

You know what’s awesome when a dumb dumb mesmer moas the bunker and the bunker sits and facetanks everything while attacking with the moa skills just because TROLOLOLOL

So your suggestion for the bunker, whose main role is to defend the capture point, is to leave the capture point free for the mesmer?

Ummm no. My point is bunkers should be built well enough that even if they get moa’d at full health then they should be able to survive 10s. With the support of teammates it should be even easier. My engi easily survived it several times even with focus fire.

Jportell… save your energy. Anyone who is serious about pvp knows that Moa is one of the weakest elites in the game. These guys are probably new to pvp and are still learning the ropes. I’ve decided to just cut them some slack and let them get a little more experience.

jportell.2197:

Ummm no. My point is bunkers should be built well enough that even if they get moa’d at full health then they should be able to survive 10s. With the support of teammates it should be even easier. My engi easily survived it several times even with focus fire.

In which kind of fantasy PvP world do you live?
Any bunker is incapable to survive to any burst without having access to their weapon skills/utility. Toughness alone has never saved anyone, nor vitality.

Staying for 10s on the point while bunkering to keep it safe, means you’re dead by the stupid damage of mesmer (which is most likely running shatter, huh?), leaving the point means that mesmer gets a freecap with easy.

Also, who is exactly supporting the Moaed bunker? You know that the support profession, usually, is not more than one on a node? If you Moa the bunker, there is none to support allies (unless you consider running 2 guardians as a pro meta build and placing them on the same node a super duper tactic) and everyone will probably focus the chicken because, you know, wiping the enemy bunker as soon as possible is kinda useful.

If Moa really was that bad, I guess you would be fine if they completely remove that skill and replace it with another elite, right? Otherwise your denial of that skill stupidity is senseless.

Jasher.6580:

Jportell… save your energy. Anyone who is serious about pvp knows that Moa is one of the weakest elites in the game. These guys are probably new to pvp and are still learning the ropes. I’ve decided to just cut them some slack and let them get a little more experience.

The problem with Moa is that it can, almost uniquely of any elite, be rendered absolutely useless very easily or guarantees you win a fight. For example, you are 1v1ing an MM on point. If you land Moa, they lose flat out. Nothing they do from that point on matters, they lost the fight. But if you miss, you just lost your elite with 0 effect at all except at most you forced out one dodge/whatever.

It just has far too big of a swing due to reliability. In the best cases it is far too strong (no single button should ever win you a fight like it can), and in the worst cases it is the worst elite in the game, no better than if you just didn’t slot one.

lol moa is useless except to transform a lich/plague/rampage. If you have issues being moa’d thats a L2p issue.

I always find funny how those people say that Moa is useless but yet are so adverse to accept a total replacement of that skill.

As a mesmer, I would love to see this removed and replaced with a elite transform or phantasm or some sort of buff for your clones/phantasms (like Rampage As One). In PVE it’s sort of pointless. In wvw/pve its a short duration lockdown on a single target and gives them tools to escape easily. It looks good on paper, but is often a waste other than for spiking someone or locking down a troll spec thief.

Though I will admit, it is amusing when someone turns you into a moa then you kill them while in moa form. The attacks actually do decent damage….

Asuka Shikinami.5462:

As a mesmer, I would love to see this removed and replaced with a elite transform or phantasm or some sort of buff for your clones/phantasms (like Rampage As One). In PVE it’s sort of pointless. In wvw/pve its a short duration lockdown on a single target and gives them tools to escape easily. It looks good on paper, but is often a waste other than for spiking someone or locking down a troll spec thief.

Though I will admit, it is amusing when someone turns you into a moa then you kill them while in moa form. The attacks actually do decent damage….

Same here. Wouldn’t mind it changed to something more useful.
On a sidenote: Wtb Moa-stomp

I still find the Moa skill completly unacceptable.

make stun breakers break it! reduce the duration to 5sec in PvP. also reduce it’s CD.

fixed!

Volrath.1473:

make stun breakers break it! reduce the duration to 5sec in PvP. also reduce it’s CD.

fixed!

B-but how can mesmers get a freecap on bunkered nodes then?

sorrow.2364:

Volrath.1473:

make stun breakers break it! reduce the duration to 5sec in PvP. also reduce it’s CD.

fixed!

B-but how can mesmers get a freecap on bunkered nodes then?

with skill like every one else besides faceroll warriors

I think it should be disabled entirely for PvP. Its just too OP since it also cancels almost every elite skill and instant kills all necromancer minions.
It just completly ruins the gameflow if you suddenly have to deal with 5 skills which arent your own.

Great necro post, this thread is only 3 months old!