Guild Wars 2

Bring it on, once charged mantras are not cast only executed. they work through stun. and so many other ways to mitigate damage… i suppose in the end, personal preferences will decide whether one is more effective than the other. the build I’m running now works great with my playstyle (i like calculated, precision strikes) and im having alot of succes with it … only downside is the mobility, but i suppose you cannot have it all.

JinDaVikk.7291:

Feight if you run mantra mesmer ( I want it to be viable) against a non brain damaged d/p thief? Gl. they can SPAM interrupts on you. You will never heal.

Mantra of recovery and stealth utilities allow you plenty of opportunity for charging without interruption.

And quite frankly you can pop stability before charging it.

So there goes one skill that could be used for Condi but instead used as pre emptive stability and takes one less clone generation.

jportell.2197:

So there goes one skill that could be used for Condi but instead used as pre emptive stability and takes one less clone generation.

Considering I use mantras with a phantasm build I don’t want to replace my phantasms with more clones. Decoy, blink, stability mantra. You then also have distortion to charge the mantra.

So I have decoy, mantra stability, distortion and mass invis elite to charge my mantras when under pressure.

My mantra also uses 30 in inspiration for restorative mantras so I have pretty strong healing.

Yeah, it needs buffing. But you can work with it if you’re tired of the usual builds.

Ether Feast is arguably the best heal overall, but mantra of recovery affords much better sustained with half the cooldown and the ability to use it mid-skill/cc.

Kind of dissapointed everyone is rerolling Necro. Why not stick a Warrior on an enemy Necro instead of having everyone reroll?

So? Just reroll the next overpowered class. Isnt that why you guys willingly play a scrublord mesmer to begin with?

Yes because mesmer was always SOOOO OP. mesmer has no unblockable skills crap aoe damage poor condi removal and subpar team support. It was only OP when we had the shattered strength bug and never since

Not a single mesmer in EU pre PAX tournament final. The two teams (TP and CC) were far above the others.
Obviously mesmer are pretty strong…but less than
-Necro
-Thief
-Engineer
-Guardian
-Elementalist
-Ranger

I can’t tell if warrior is now better.
What an OP class…..please nerf more.

20 20 30 0 0. You say hardcc is better then interrupts? Then let me turn interrupts into hardcc immune to stunbreaks. Try it! And thank me later.

GankSinatra.2653:

So? Just reroll the next overpowered class. Isnt that why you guys willingly play a scrublord mesmer to begin with?

Nope. As hard as it might be for you to accept, some of us actually like the profession for other reasons and would like to see it viable again in high end tournament play.
Ideally that should be true for any profession.

How can the profession which brings the best team utility and ridiculous skills unviable in tournament play?

It is viable, but the meta tells you that you shouldn’t play Mesmer.

Once ArenaNet will tone down conditions on Necro and spirits on Ranger, as they will surely do, we’ll come back to the Mesmer-Guardian-Engi-Thief-Ele meta, so TP can jump to the bandwagon as they always did, Necro and Ranger will be unviable again, everyone is happy and the previous state of the things is preserved.

There is even a better solution, give Mesmer more damage, more control and more utility. Like, increase the shatter damage to deal 20k+ damage, increase Moa duration to 20s and make Illusion of Life an unconditional ress. So Memser will be broken OP again in tPvP and everyone is happy, again.

hmm im not much of an spvp player, i only play wvw, but sometimes i liked to join spvp when our matchups got stale or we had only 10ppt. so i havent changed my build, but before the last 2 patches, i was doing alright in spvp and had really good surviivability.
i always carry either nullfield or arcanethievery with me(kinda used to it from wvw), but for the last few times, i felt completely up and kept getting facerolled by mainly necros and rangers…. i still got some kills, but it was very tough!

i barely see mesmers in spvp and the ones i see get facerolled….seems like the meta shifted like in wvw(apart form rangers….)

sorrow.2364:

How can the profession which brings the best team utility and ridiculous skills unviable in tournament play?

It is viable, but the meta tells you that you shouldn’t play Mesmer.

Once ArenaNet will tone down conditions on Necro and spirits on Ranger, as they will surely do, we’ll come back to the Mesmer-Guardian-Engi-Thief-Ele meta, so TP can jump to the bandwagon as they always did, Necro and Ranger will be unviable again, everyone is happy and the previous state of the things is preserved.

There is even a better solution, give Mesmer more damage, more control and more utility. Like, increase the shatter damage to deal 20k+ damage, increase Moa duration to 20s and make Illusion of Life an unconditional ress. So Memser will be broken OP again in tPvP and everyone is happy, again.

Why are you so bitter ?

Xeph.4513:

sorrow.2364:

How can the profession which brings the best team utility and ridiculous skills unviable in tournament play?

It is viable, but the meta tells you that you shouldn’t play Mesmer.

Once ArenaNet will tone down conditions on Necro and spirits on Ranger, as they will surely do, we’ll come back to the Mesmer-Guardian-Engi-Thief-Ele meta, so TP can jump to the bandwagon as they always did, Necro and Ranger will be unviable again, everyone is happy and the previous state of the things is preserved.

There is even a better solution, give Mesmer more damage, more control and more utility. Like, increase the shatter damage to deal 20k+ damage, increase Moa duration to 20s and make Illusion of Life an unconditional ress. So Memser will be broken OP again in tPvP and everyone is happy, again.

Why are you so bitter ?

It’s your fault Xeph, everything is, just accept it.

Team Paragdim = Illuminati

Fact.

Xeph.4513:

Why are you so bitter ?

Because there are so many design flaws in PvP that there isn’t so much to being happy after 1 year of constant updates leading to nothing.

The meta was broken since launch and there wasn’t really a period in which you were able to say “Finally I can play in a balanced game”.

All I see in the sPvP forums are suggestion aiming to make changes that will lead again on imbalances, shifting the meta again in situations in which some profession overshadow all the others.

Mesmer has been and still is a must-take in every tPvP match because of its utilities. In the current meta Mesmer didn’t survived because of not-so-good condition removals. After you’ll bring again Mesmer in the meta, it will be again a must take in every team because of portal, IoL, Moa/TW and so on.

Necromancers and Rangers, after their conditions and spirits will be toned down, will be again unviable and brought in no team ever, because, in the way they are designed, they bring pretty much nothing in the conquest gamemode.

Probably the mother of every issue is that the competitive gamemode is only one and that some professions are designed to be the best at it..?

I have nothing against TP, it’s just that you are the biggest voice in the PvP community, but, still, it looks like you want to bring the meta as it was 6-7 months ago.

sorrow.2364:

Xeph.4513:

Why are you so bitter ?

Because there are so many design flaws in PvP that there isn’t so much to being happy after 1 year of constant updates leading to nothing.

The meta was broken since launch and there wasn’t really a period in which you were able to say “Finally I can play in a balanced game”.

All I see in the sPvP forums are suggestion aiming to make changes that will lead again on imbalances, shifting the meta again in situations in which some profession overshadow all the others.

Mesmer has been and still is a must-take in every tPvP match because of its utilities. In the current meta Mesmer didn’t survived because of not-so-good condition removals. After you’ll bring again Mesmer in the meta, it will be again a must take in every team because of portal, IoL, Moa/TW and so on.

Necromancers and Rangers, after their conditions and spirits will be toned down, will be again unviable and brought in no team ever, because, in the way they are designed, they bring pretty much nothing in the conquest gamemode.

Probably the mother of every issue is that the competitive gamemode is only one and that some professions are designed to be the best at it..?

I have nothing against TP, it’s just that you are the biggest voice in the PvP community, but, still, it looks like you want to bring the meta as it was 6-7 months ago.

So because we don’t share the same balance views as yourself, it means thakittens fine to take shots at us ?
Sorry its just not making sense to me, because I also disagree with how you view balancing but you don’t see me coming on the forums and getting mad at you :<
just try and treat others as you would like to be treated is all I am saying.

But yes on topic, I do agree that mesmers at the moment are not viable in the meta, does that mean they are a weak class ? no
do they need buffs ? no
Fact of the matter is, that if necro and thief are nerfed, then mesmer will once again be viable and in my personal opinion a little too strong, espically damage wise, so what I would suggest is to:
Nerf the damage on berserker.
Remove the mightstacks given on mirror blade and replace it with regen/retaliation.
Reduce the mental torment trait to only giving 10% increased mindwrack damage.
Reduce Halting strike damage by 15% (its a free windwrack right now)

Hopefully that should bring them in line damage wise.
I am sure there are more things that need to be looked at, but I personally would start there.

People also tend to confuse the mindwrack with the whole blurred frenzy combo.

6-7k damage spike is fine. Add 3k into it while you’re rooted and it can push the envelop.

On the flip side mesmer needs the burst, because like rangers you have no sustained damage. Rangers need to burst their conditions — they don’t do steady damage through auto pressure and skill spam like other classes.

If somebody dodges splitblade/throw torch, you do no damage for a good while. If somebody dodges mindwrack/phantasm, the mesmer similarly does no damage for a good while because his sustained damage, the auto, is not good.

It’s also why scepter eles can only go for burst builds and lose to d/d eles and condi bunkers. You have no sustained damage if the burst doesn’t land completely.

If you want an example of sustained damage look at thieves and warriors and maybe power necros. Their pressure stays regardless of whether they land their burst or not. You need to peel them.

Xeph.4513

lotsa text

I’ve been suggesting that GS might be a little bit too strong since launch (in pvp or pve or whatever) when I played mesmer for a while. I don’t want to point on some specific thing anymore since I don’t play mesmer anymore but when you put together all skills on GS and mesmer abilities it is maybe too much.

And to topic I really don’t think mesmers are not viable. I don’t really know much about this so called “top level” tournaments or whatsoever but if “top” teams cannot figure out how to use them is not really reason to add more power to them.

I am a WvWvW player, so these comments are about WvWvW, not spvp/tpvp:

Mesmers are still very much part of the meta in WvWvW. Good commanders frequently request to have their team veiled. And it is not uncommon to see several veils chained. Few days ago we used 3 mesmers and chained portals to capture enemy keep while being outnumbered just few days ago. Time stop and null field are also frequently used and requested by some commanders. All these are very strong utility skills. No other profession can bring anything like portal.

Mesmers are still one of the best roaming professions. Yesterday we were roaming with thief, necro, mesmer and engineer with a good success. Mesmer shatter burst and ability to give mass invisibility (for party escape) is great. I have seen enemy teams do the same, but all of them seem to run rangers instead of engineers.

The surge of necromancers in WvWvW hasn’t been unnoticed. Some top guild vs guild teams are now having 1/4 of their players as necromancers. Guardian and warrior really didn’t need any buffs for pve or WvWvW, but they happened anycase. Now warrior works nicely as a solo roamer as well. Not optimal like a thief, but I can use the same warrior build at great effect in zergs as well. Lots of sustainability, yet decent damage and tons of CC.

I do a lot of solo roaming and during my solo roaming I end up having real 1 vs 1 duels as well, which are not light years far from spvp situations:

I believe one of the biggest key problems right now are:
1. Too long stun chains and too few stun breaks with low cooldown
- this punishes one badly timed stun break or dodge extremely heavily
- no stun skill should last more than 2 seconds
- put back stun breaks to some of the defensive skills, now strangely stun breaks often occupy offensive skills

2. Excessive condition burst
- unless you really spec your solo roamer against conditions, you can be toast in just few seconds (e.g. conditionmancer necro using signet of spite + chilblains + well of corruption, all from range and traited to trigger burning from dhuumfire as well)
- the key problem is here is the burning condition (note in WvWvW dhuumfire still does 4 s burning and with consumables + traits + armor it does 8 s burning!). It can be buried under a myriad of other conditions. Maybe condition removal skills should work so that burning is always removed 1st OR burning damage needs to toned down
- burning gives to much damage even if you don’t have any points in condition damage. I would vote to reconsider the formula:
old burning: (0.25 * Condition Damage) + (4 * Level) + 8 damage per second
new burning: (0.25 * Condition Damage) + (2 * Level) + 8 damage per second

3. Excessive burst, combined with the ability to reset the fight with ease
- full berserker ascended gear, 25 stacks of bloodlust, scholar runes, traits, backstab can crit hit around 20k against 2500 total armor. C&D doing 7k, heartseeker can crit 6k+ as well. These types of damage are just not possible in spvp/tpvp. Combine this with 3 s revealed, big map, tons of shadowstepping and stealth on demand. It is no surprise most players like to stick to zergs as they are afraid to move alone
- I feel that excessive burst combined with the ability to get away and vanish (e.g. if your ganking attempt failed) is just plain wrong. WvWvW was supposed to be newbie friendly. This really doesn’t create a good experience for most newcomers. Let the elitism stay in tpvp, but WvWvW must remain accessible for all levels of play. I feel that many of the tpvp related class balancing has just worsened the class balance for WvWvW.

Sorry about the long rant in wrong forums!

Xeph.4513:

sorrow.2364:

Xeph.4513:

Why are you so bitter ?

Because there are so many design flaws in PvP that there isn’t so much to being happy after 1 year of constant updates leading to nothing.

The meta was broken since launch and there wasn’t really a period in which you were able to say “Finally I can play in a balanced game”.

All I see in the sPvP forums are suggestion aiming to make changes that will lead again on imbalances, shifting the meta again in situations in which some profession overshadow all the others.

Mesmer has been and still is a must-take in every tPvP match because of its utilities. In the current meta Mesmer didn’t survived because of not-so-good condition removals. After you’ll bring again Mesmer in the meta, it will be again a must take in every team because of portal, IoL, Moa/TW and so on.

Necromancers and Rangers, after their conditions and spirits will be toned down, will be again unviable and brought in no team ever, because, in the way they are designed, they bring pretty much nothing in the conquest gamemode.

Probably the mother of every issue is that the competitive gamemode is only one and that some professions are designed to be the best at it..?

I have nothing against TP, it’s just that you are the biggest voice in the PvP community, but, still, it looks like you want to bring the meta as it was 6-7 months ago.

So because we don’t share the same balance views as yourself, it means thakittens fine to take shots at us ?
Sorry its just not making sense to me, because I also disagree with how you view balancing but you don’t see me coming on the forums and getting mad at you :<
just try and treat others as you would like to be treated is all I am saying.

But yes on topic, I do agree that mesmers at the moment are not viable in the meta, does that mean they are a weak class ? no
do they need buffs ? no
Fact of the matter is, that if necro and thief are nerfed, then mesmer will once again be viable and in my personal opinion a little too strong, espically damage wise, so what I would suggest is to:
Nerf the damage on berserker.
Remove the mightstacks given on mirror blade and replace it with regen/retaliation.
Reduce the mental torment trait to only giving 10% increased mindwrack damage.
Reduce Halting strike damage by 15% (its a free windwrack right now)

Hopefully that should bring them in line damage wise.
I am sure there are more things that need to be looked at, but I personally would start there.

I agree with you Xeph on your views. The only thing I differ on is the way I would go about toning down Mesmer (that is to say if the meta ever settles and lets us back in).

I would like to see the GS auto attack reverse in mechanic. By this I mean that the way the skill does much greater damage at greater distance is backwards to me. I think that the closer you are, the more damage the auto attack does and the further away you are, the less damage it should do (risk/reward logic).

Might Stacks on GS should be allowable. In a group fight the Mesmer rarely benefits as it bounces mostly through enemy and almost never comes back to your position. 1v1 however we benefit from this skill (except pet spam builds) greatly and I believe its a crucial part of being able to win a solo engagement.

As for I-zerker, I agree it could be looked at but I really am not convinced its over the top just yet. Its an easily predictable/blindable/kiteable move that gets most of its damage benefit from the combinations of our amulet, ogre runes, phantasmal fury, and compounding power traits (in other words we gear and trait to be so offensive so visa vi the phantasam hits like a truck). To me, I think the answer is to increase the cooldown on it slightly so its a more intelligent decision to blow the cooldown than to just spam it on availability.

If you move mental torment and halting strike to the master tier and move rending shatter and shattered concentration to the adept tier you would not only force a choice on some of the more damaging traits but you would also open up some of the utility traits to possibly increase build diversity.

Xeph didnt mention it but some others in this thread have, and Moa is a balanced skill in my opinion (obvious animation and sound that is dodgeable/blockable/blindable, not a death sentence if you manage your evades and moa skills). That being said, I dont like it though because no one enjoys loss of control of your character for an extended period of time, especially in a game this fast paced (this applies to the new 3 second stuns as well, but thats a different rant. I apparently I am the only one who doesn’t enjoy 3 second stuns ) I would hope to see this move get changed in the future.

My critizism is not on the mesmer class cause we dont bring things needed for the current meta who consist of “be best at root you on a point” etc.

I say that the current tPVP meta playstyle with only 1 game mode, stand in the ring and survive", is not only silly but rather booring. IF the meta had some other modes “capture the flag”, “defuse bomb” or “bust enemy base” we would see totaly other setups viable.

Suddenly a high mobile class with stealth would be amazing. I cant understand why they made the game META tPvP like it look now.

Current tPvP meta closes the door to several classes/setups.

/Osicat

Xeph.4513:

But yes on topic, I do agree that mesmers at the moment are not viable in the meta, does that mean they are a weak class ? no
do they need buffs ? no
Fact of the matter is, that if necro and thief are nerfed, then mesmer will once again be viable and in my personal opinion a little too strong, espically damage wise, so what I would suggest is to:
Nerf the damage on berserker.
Remove the mightstacks given on mirror blade and replace it with regen/retaliation.
Reduce the mental torment trait to only giving 10% increased mindwrack damage.
Reduce Halting strike damage by 15% (its a free windwrack right now)

Hopefully that should bring them in line damage wise.
I am sure there are more things that need to be looked at, but I personally would start there.

You are like some kind of completely unbiased player willing to suggest that your own class is too strong

Please stop you are ruining this community!!(!)

But yeah mesmer damage is ridiculous considering how easy it is to pull off, how your phantasms track for you, put you in absolutely no risk, then can shatter them for even more damage from ranged. On top of all the support they bring in the form of utilities and Elite… Personally I agree that Mesmer damage needs to be toned down, but also that their mechanics should stop allowing them to run in the opposite direction while dealing high damage.

Once this “meta” of condition damage abuse gets fixed Mesmer will instantly jump back to it’s usual spot among the top classes if nothing is done about it.

Deniara Devious.3948:

I am a WvWvW player, so these comments are about WvWvW, not spvp/tpvp:

Mesmers are still very much part of the meta in WvWvW. Good commanders frequently request to have their team veiled. And it is not uncommon to see several veils chained. Few days ago we used 3 mesmers and chained portals to capture enemy keep while being outnumbered just few days ago. Time stop and null field are also frequently used and requested by some commanders. All these are very strong utility skills. No other profession can bring anything like portal.

yeah wvw player here. errm i am not a veilbot, nor a portalchain, nor a kitten tw bot! i wanna be able to contribute to the zergfights as well as all the otherclasses(and btw im sure there is thieves out there that would like to do something else than gank and kill dolyaks)

all of these are mainly support skills and i would like some viable aoe, viable condition and not be a glasscanon. in wvw u need some toughness if u are going for keeps.
if u want to roam im sure your spvp/tpvp build and gear will work.

but yes i agree that spvp balance has destroyed wvw balance!
@Jzaku if they would nerf mesmer dmg and change all the things u complained about, that would render the mesmer useless in wvwv. like i said u need toughness u need swiftness and ways to hit a zerg and be able to run away.

think with portals

Only reason mesmer exists in wvw is null field and veil/portal. Their aoe is nonexistent because phantasms die immediately when summoned before even pulling off their ability, illusions will die to cleave/aoe when they reach the target, and mesmer doesn’t have the sustained aoe that guardian/warrior/dd ele melee trains can bring nor the expansive aoe+cc chains of staff ele and necro.

Mesmer shines the smaller the engagement, just like the ranger. As soon as engagements go beyond 5+ people, like 10v10, the ranger and mesmer lose their shine real quick.

The thief is relegated to backline harassment with all invested on shadowstep/escapes since they can’t go with the guardian/warrior melee train, and quite frankly shortbow doesn’t stand up to staff eles/necros.

I’d be willing to see mesmer and thief buffs when and only when stealth is toned down and made more skill based. Right now it simply wouldn’t be fair to have mesmers be able to deal and absorb as much damage as some of the other classes. Stealth is just too potent.

Tone down stealth and then we’ll talk.

Fungalfoot.7213:

I’d be willing to see mesmer and thief buffs when and only when stealth is toned down and made more skill based. Right now it simply wouldn’t be fair to have mesmers be able to deal and absorb as much damage as some of the other classes. Stealth is just too potent.

Tone down stealth and then we’ll talk.

Remove stealth stacking so you can’t renew stealth while stealthed. Remove stealth stacking off black powder. Reduce black powder duration.

Thief sustained will need to go up quite a bit if you touch stealth though. They’ll get destroyed by guardians and warriors and dd eles if they don’t have better damage mitigation than they currently do.

Zenith.7301:

Only reason mesmer exists in wvw is null field and veil/portal. Their aoe is nonexistent because phantasms die immediately when summoned before even pulling off their ability, illusions will die to cleave/aoe when they reach the target, and mesmer doesn’t have the sustained aoe that guardian/warrior/dd ele melee trains can bring nor the expansive aoe+cc chains of staff ele and necro.

Mesmer shines the smaller the engagement, just like the ranger. As soon as engagements go beyond 5+ people, like 10v10, the ranger and mesmer lose their shine real quick.

The thief is relegated to backline harassment with all invested on shadowstep/escapes since they can’t go with the guardian/warrior melee train, and quite frankly shortbow doesn’t stand up to staff eles/necros.

I agree with most of that, except…

Have you ever participated or observed how the top guild-vs-guild (gvg) play in WvWvW? Most of them are EU guilds, which are playing far better than your average or so called “good” zerg. In fact they can demolish enemy zergs twice their size. I am talking about guilds like these:

http://gw2gvg.com/

Many of them practice and play together a lot. Their commander’s job is very difficult indeed.

Interestingly many of them also utilize some thieves and rangers to snipe enemy ranged (who tend to stay away from the melee part of clashing). I recently saw [Mya] using even more interesting composition with almost like semi-ranged guild group with rather small melee front line, softening enemy at range before the hammer melee train hits in.

Practically almost all those top guilds use one or several mesmers in their 20 man setup. Main force is of course warriors and guardians. Elementalists are traditionally the 3rd most profession, but now I have seen many of them run lots of necromancers.

Medium armor professions are the rarest in zergs. I already commented in another thread, why engineer are almost totally unseen in such top gvg:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Do-Engineers-get-more-accepted-into-groups/first#post2480748

I agree that mesmers are mostly utility & support in big fights, despite in small scale they are also very good roamers. But still I wouldn’t rank them as non-viable or as the worst WvWvW profession. I think the developers would get pretty good idea what professions to buff and which to nerf in WvWvW, just looking at the usage: which professions are most used and which are least used.

I don’t know any reasonable way how to make phantasm mesmer viable for large zergs. If you give those phantasms much more hit points they would be totally overpowered in small scale. Same problem with ranger pets, necromancer minions and engineer turrets.

Many of the Xeph’s suggestions in this thread are actually very good. I like the idea of slightly toning down the damage, yet giving a bit more sustainability. At the same time I feel that some other professions will now need some nerfing (I know players hate to have their fav profession nerfed).

Deniara Devious.3948:

-snip-

This thread is about sPVP. Nothing in WvW matters.

Mesmer isn’t a underpowered class. It’s a class that now can’t be played whitout know how to play it. I’ve see a large number of excellent mesmer. Mesmer can evade, hide, deal 7-9k damage in one skill (shatter), transform the enemy into a moa (I hate that skill!!!!!!), steal buffs and give conditions, transform enemy buffs into conditions, etc.
it’s not the worst class of the game.
Try to use a guardian and win a gainst a good mesmer…

Mesmer is just a little like all the other classes. Now you can’t survive against 2 enemy, like almost all the other classes. Now you need to know how to play that class and when go in melee and when stay at range, or flee.

At the end there’s only one thing I can say abount the new difficult to play as a mesmer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=of1bVlo_5Y4&hd=1

So far no team that has been in the NA tournament for pax. Has a single mesmer. Not one single mesmer that I have seen

Deniara Devious.3948:

Zenith.7301:

Only reason mesmer exists in wvw is null field and veil/portal. Their aoe is nonexistent because phantasms die immediately when summoned before even pulling off their ability, illusions will die to cleave/aoe when they reach the target, and mesmer doesn’t have the sustained aoe that guardian/warrior/dd ele melee trains can bring nor the expansive aoe+cc chains of staff ele and necro.

Mesmer shines the smaller the engagement, just like the ranger. As soon as engagements go beyond 5+ people, like 10v10, the ranger and mesmer lose their shine real quick.

The thief is relegated to backline harassment with all invested on shadowstep/escapes since they can’t go with the guardian/warrior melee train, and quite frankly shortbow doesn’t stand up to staff eles/necros.

I agree with most of that, except…

Have you ever participated or observed how the top guild-vs-guild (gvg) play in WvWvW? Most of them are EU guilds, which are playing far better than your average or so called “good” zerg. In fact they can demolish enemy zergs twice their size. I am talking about guilds like these:

http://gw2gvg.com/

Many of them practice and play together a lot. Their commander’s job is very difficult indeed.

Interestingly many of them also utilize some thieves and rangers to snipe enemy ranged (who tend to stay away from the melee part of clashing). I recently saw [Mya] using even more interesting composition with almost like semi-ranged guild group with rather small melee front line, softening enemy at range before the hammer melee train hits in.

Practically almost all those top guilds use one or several mesmers in their 20 man setup. Main force is of course warriors and guardians. Elementalists are traditionally the 3rd most profession, but now I have seen many of them run lots of necromancers.

Medium armor professions are the rarest in zergs. I already commented in another thread, why engineer are almost totally unseen in such top gvg:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/engineer/Do-Engineers-get-more-accepted-into-groups/first#post2480748

I agree that mesmers are mostly utility & support in big fights, despite in small scale they are also very good roamers. But still I wouldn’t rank them as non-viable or as the worst WvWvW profession. I think the developers would get pretty good idea what professions to buff and which to nerf in WvWvW, just looking at the usage: which professions are most used and which are least used.

I don’t know any reasonable way how to make phantasm mesmer viable for large zergs. If you give those phantasms much more hit points they would be totally overpowered in small scale. Same problem with ranger pets, necromancer minions and engineer turrets.

Many of the Xeph’s suggestions in this thread are actually very good. I like the idea of slightly toning down the damage, yet giving a bit more sustainability. At the same time I feel that some other professions will now need some nerfing (I know players hate to have their fav profession nerfed).

You don’t give them more hitpoints.

You reduce aoe damage on pets/minions by 70-80%. You can still kill clones quick if you hit them individually, but swinging a melee weapon ro a couple of aoe fields won’t completely gut any mesmer build that isn’t shatter.

Killing enemy minions/pets should be an opportunity cost not a side benefit of cleaving your opponent.

Even with 70-80% aoe reductions phantasms most likely in team fights won’t last more than one attack, but at least you’ll get some use out of them.

Another problem with the mesmer is that in order to make shatter any good you really need to trait heavily for it. Otherwise there’s little point to shattering your phantasms.

It’s why I always advocated phantasms as utility summons instead of damage summons, because when you have two sources of damage, ultimately you’ll pick the optimal one.

If phantasms are for utility and mindwrack is the damage with reducing phantasm damage and putting utility in them while that shaved damage is put in the mesmer’s abilities (better autoattack numbers, slight increase to maybe blurred frenzy), it wouldn’t be a scenario of either speccing for phantasms and never wanting to shatter or speccing into shatters and not wanting to leave phantasms up.

jportell.2197:

So far no team that has been in the NA tournament for pax. Has a single mesmer. Not one single mesmer that I have seen

yeah anet seems satisfied. they didnt want mesmers in the tourney to begin with, thats why all tose major nerfs and then all the buffs for other classes…..and then they came out with the necro patch..anet devs nod satisfied: “mission accomplished!”

Permastealth thieves are the bane of any build. Try mitigating a shadow arts BS thief 1v1 and see how many builds can actually cope with backstabs at 18-20 might stacks with permanently stackable stealth assuring you eventually land the backstab.

I think you mean shatter mesmers and thieves can be mitigated by forcing them into team fights. But in 1v1, which they can do plenty if you assign them to far point assault they are ridiculously strong.

sorrow.2364:

Xeph.4513:

Why are you so bitter ?

Mesmer has been and still is a must-take in every tPvP match because of its utilities. In the current meta Mesmer didn’t survived because of not-so-good condition removals. After you’ll bring again Mesmer in the meta, it will be again a must take in every team because of portal, IoL, Moa/TW and so on.

What a joke. No teams as far as I know used a mesmer in the NA tournament we had yesterday and today. Mesmers are weak and have been overnerfed and many of their utilities and weapon skills are just trash.

OP should try playing Warrior for 6 months.

Isn’t it great replying to a thread without having read even a single post and without a clue how PvP works?

LoBo.1724:

OP should try playing Warrior for 6 months.

Warrior is ..in a pretty good spot right now… not amazing but not free points like mesmer is right now..

But enough troll feeding.. Back to the topic..

Mesmer is in a bit of a slump right now.. I thought it was because my build was unviable or too high skillcap for me but no mesmer really is hurting…

Should mesmers get buffs? Hmmm.. no probably not, well maybe if you buffed the unuseable skills/traits people in this thread keep referencing..

Like the Torch…. (Which makes you even worse at holding points in a conquest game)

Maybe make Arcane thievery 20s CD instead of 45? or atleast bring it down to nullfield, right now there is absolutely NO Reason to use this over nullfield..
The Cleanse on shatter trait is in a joke trait-line.. maybe if it was a minor trait somewhere else or built into a viable trait you’d see it run.

(Okay this maybe a bit OP) A built in 2condicleanse in distortion would be nice… especially since we only have the one real distortion skill now

OH YEA…Tuning down engineer’s poison grenades would help a bit

Keep the condi cleave the same =p

Remember our buff from December when we got 3 stacks per illusion on shattered might?

Bring that back~ bump it to grand master and make I-cleriry a master minor.

Then nerf ranger healing.

So many people will bash me for this and I may have a flawed opinion but I think it would make AoE burst just as strong as the condi cleave, when you throw hammer warriors into the mix.

People will still melt either way but will force in a new meta and prospective of counter play or even more hybrids because players will be weary of both, perhaps promote more cluch offensive plays with a healthy mix of condi and burst cleave.

Daishi.6027:

Keep the condi cleave the same =p

Remember our buff from December when we got 3 stacks per illusion on shattered might?

Bring that back~ bump it to grand master and make I-cleriry a master minor.

Then nerf ranger healing.

So many people will bash me for this and I may have a flawed opinion but I think it would make AoE burst just as strong as the condi cleave, when you throw hammer warriors into the mix.

People will still melt either way but will force in a new meta and prospective of counter play or even more hybrids because players will be weary of both, perhaps promote more cluch offensive plays with a healthy mix of condi and burst cleave.

This sooo much this. Anet has successfully gutted mesmers. Time to give us meaningful buffs.

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

So necros, eles, guards, warriors, rangers, engis, and thieves are all OP and mesmer is the one that is fine instead? Please. Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

So necros, eles, guards, warriors, rangers, engis, and thieves are all OP and mesmer is the one that is fine instead? Please. Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

Are you seriously suggesting that mesmer needs help?

-most viable builds in the whole game ( 1.5 builds for ele and several for the mesmer)
-most polished set of utilities ( wanna compare mantra to conjure? mes signets to ele signets? maybe our glyphs? )
-most polished set of weapons ( ever seen a staff ele in tPvP? a focus ele?)

You complain that mesmers are overly weak to conditions when using a burst build…on my ele I need to trait for condition removal to survive this meta, I need to invest all my utilities to do that, a mesmer can have a burst build and still equip utilites that can change the fate of battle..or entire games ( portal-illusion of life- null field )

Other professions look at your utilities with envy, there is no choice for the other professions, it’s always 3-4 utilities out of 20, maybe there are only 3-4 utilities that I’ve never seen equipped on a mesmer ( mimic- feedback – signet of inspiration and midnight )

You’ve got not a single useless elite..not a single one, look at :

-ele : tornado – FGS
- engineer: mortar, elixir X

Like have you ever seen these elites being used during a serious tPvP match?

Eventually ranger and necro may be toned down a little but under no circumstances the mesmer should receive any buff whatsoever

jportell.2197:

Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

that say all….

GOOD, best news I have heard all day.

Arheundel.6451:

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

So necros, eles, guards, warriors, rangers, engis, and thieves are all OP and mesmer is the one that is fine instead? Please. Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

Are you seriously suggesting that mesmer needs help?

-most viable builds in the whole game ( 1.5 builds for ele and several for the mesmer)
-most polished set of utilities ( wanna compare mantra to conjure? mes signets to ele signets? maybe our glyphs? )
-most polished set of weapons ( ever seen a staff ele in tPvP? a focus ele?)

You complain that mesmers are overly weak to conditions when using a burst build…on my ele I need to trait for condition removal to survive this meta, I need to invest all my utilities to do that, a mesmer can have a burst build and still equip utilites that can change the fate of battle..or entire games ( portal-illusion of life- null field )

Other professions look at your utilities with envy, there is no choice for the other professions, it’s always 3-4 utilities out of 20, maybe there are only 3-4 utilities that I’ve never seen equipped on a mesmer ( mimic- feedback – signet of inspiration and midnight )

You’ve got not a single useless elite..not a single one, look at :

-ele : tornado – FGS
- engineer: mortar, elixir X

Like have you ever seen these elites being used during a serious tPvP match?

Eventually ranger and necro may be toned down a little but under no circumstances the mesmer should receive any buff whatsoever

Yes I am serioiusly suggesting that mesmer needs help. Ele has a signet that cures one condition every 10 seconds. FREAKING GODLY when compared to a mesmer condi removal… Oh wait we have condi removal?

Mesmer has the most viable builds? Are you flipping kidding me. Any team comp it is are you shatter? Yes. Okay, do you have IOL, Portal, Moa (it used to be timewarp).
That leaves ONE option for the mesmer to choose for their utilities.

Should I compare mantra to conjure… Hmmm how many mantra mesmers do you see running around top tier tourneys? I have seen some zerker eles that use FGS. Are conjure weapons on the whole a little lack luster. Sure.
Eles now have more than a couple viable builds thanks to the fresh air and not to mention you can trait for stability every 10 seconds. Did I MENTION YOU CAN TRAIT FOR STABILITY EVERY 10s?

Glyphs well now that GOEP is a stun breaker you are seeing more eles run it. Most run triple cantrip still because it is a stun breaker, with traits it grants regen which by the way can be also traited to cure a condition. If mesmers vitality line was that good we would be all over it I promise you that. But atm it is still one of the worst vit lines in the game and the worst line for mesmers hence why few people but phantasm mesmers go deep into inspiration at all.

Most polished set of weapons? Are you effing serious again. Only until recently has the mesmer greatsword not sucked (YAY FOR the illusionary berserker bug hitting for 1k a pass and missing entirely sometimes.)
Shall we compare mesmer scepter to ele scepter? How many ele scepter skills in air are instant cast and as such almost unblockable.
And yes I have seen a staff ele in pvp and he actually does amazing as a homepoint bunker. Maybe you should talk to him. Staff eles have problems because they try to do zerker things in melee range with a ranged weapon.

Mesmers are extremely weak to conditions compared to any other class. Your zerker ele may need to trait somewhat to get condi clear but you still have it in a weapon set and a FULL CONDI CLEAR IN YOUR HEALING SKILL mesmers spend 10pts to clear one condition every heal skill and few mesmers tank mantra of recovery because it sucks. After that we have to take nullfield which got somewhat of a buff but is still one of mesmers only choices for condi clear and if they bring that THEY DON"T HAVE A STUNBREAK

Continued>

@Arheundel pt. II

Mesmer has the most choice for utilities? Once again are you off your rocker? Please tell me you are joking. Mesmer has ONE. Count it ONE utility skill that is OPEN TO PERSONAL PREFERENCE when in a serious tPvP team. That is because the other two are IOL and Portal 9/10 times. Mesmer usually has THE LEAST PERSONAL CHOICE in their utility skills when compared to other classes.

We have got timewarp which everyone except you apparently agrees is a joke since the quickness nerf. Mass invis…. which why would I take a 90s CD for 5s of stealth when an engi/thief can stack blast finishers on a smoke field and give the entire team 12-15s of stealth. Which leaves us with moa which is a cheap trick and any mesmer that gives a rip about their class wants to see replaced with something that is useful for the mesmer. Not to mention I can’t count the number of times that I have been moa’d by an idiot mesmer when i was at full health.

Engi elixir X has seen use because if it is rampage it gives a significant boost to base power/toughness/and vit. Which is pretty sweet.
Ele tornado sees some use because it is a whirl finisher I can’t count the number of times tornado has saved my teams backside because our ele did it in a light field. It negates all conditions for its duration since the very transformation is a full time whirl finisher (or do you not understand how fields and finishers work?)

Mesmer is in a very weak spot. It has access to only one combo field type and ONE blast finisher on a junk weapon that is on a long cooldown that has specific requirements to proc the blast. (Yes I know the focus is a light field but how often do people make use of it and why use a mes for lightfields when guards are around?)
Meanwhile Ele, Engi, Warr, Guard have access to a ridiculous amount of blast finishers (when was the last time anyone thanked the mesmer for blasting that fire field for 25stacks of might?)
Mesmer burst is subpar to, well everyone static discharge engis make short work of entire teams some times. Necros AOE condition damage is god right now. Ranger spirit buffs give the entire team a 10% damage bonus on top of any damage bonus they may get from traits, runes, etc not to mention AOE protection (for mesmer to do AOE protection they have to spec a very specific way and take a very specific utility which is generally garbage.) S/D eles are becoming the new one shot builds and engis and guards are still kings of bunkering. Where does a mesmer fit in?
We bring nothing to the group for support that can’t be done better by another profession (iDefender is garbage in team fights and easily negated through spam happy blinds.)
Our damage is easily out done by almost every other class. We have no group damage buffs, no group condi clear, terrible AOE pressure, and our condition builds are laughed right out of teams by necros and engis (even warriors) and we can’t properly bunker thanks to garbage condition clear and about 3-4 other professions that can do it 20x better than us.

So yes I do think mesmers need some massive help right now. There was not a single mesmer in the EU/NA prelims for pax Doesn’t that speak volumes to how bad of a spot this class is in? Or are you still on a crusade to have eles move back up to god hood?

@TheMightyAltrolln I actually agree with you for the most part, mes is still really strong 1v1 and team fight other than the condi cleave.

@Arheundel and you are right, ele has fallen out of favour. However your point about most viable builds is partly true, but that’s more true in different aspects of the game, less about the sPvP meta, same with what you said about regarding our utilities, no one seriously runs mantra or signets (maybe grab one to supplement a build) also there’s not much to envy about illusion if life and portal, they carry your team but you spend a lot of time running back to your team trying to not be caught alone unless you see someone with extremely low HP trying to run while off point for whatever reason. Also in terms of speccing to survive the current meta, isn’t it pretty close to what you’d run anyways?

Also I don’t wana hear about weapons being fleshed out when I can’t hit anything cuz going up a hill is apperently braking LoS, and my only snare is next to a clone who won’t actually leap lolololol.

@Everyone In terms of the meta we should buff forward shouldn’t we? Lets polish the classes for the current meta, if Necro gets nerfed are they really going to be fine? After so long they are viable, maybe the meta needs to buff around it, sure it’s harder and I don’t really think it’ll be done well the first time, but over all the classes will grow to be more engaging over time and the game will become more fun, so I say more buffs less nerfs. (Can think like this cuz of the mindset the game is still in extended beta)

Except ranger healing nerf the kitty out of it!!! Lolololol.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

You’re half right.

Necro is overpowered. Nevertheless, even if Necromancers were not overpowered, Mesmer still wouldn’t be “fine”. Having one viable build (shatter) isn’t acceptable. I don’t personally find Shatter fun, and Phantasms are not viable.

The current issue is that not even shatter works right now. So let’s blame Necromancers (they are easy target)… even if the meta flops back to what it used to be… having one viable spec is still stupid.

Anything else?

Jasher.6580:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

You’re half right.

Necro is overpowered. Nevertheless, even if Necromancers were not overpowered, Mesmer still wouldn’t be “fine”. Having one viable build (shatter) isn’t acceptable. I don’t personally find Shatter fun, and Phantasms are not viable.

The current issue is that not even shatter works right now. So let’s blame Necromancers (they are easy target)… even if the meta flops back to what it used to be… having one viable spec is still stupid.

Anything else?

Join the club. Rangers don’t have anything but spirit. Power necros can gtfo since you can only roll condi. Guardians only really go bunker since mesmers and thieves do spike better and with more mobility than them. Warriors could try condis for giggle but why would you take a condi warrior over a power one when an engi does what a condi warrior can do but so much better?

Build diversity is a myth. You have D/P thief and s/d, one of the better ones. DD and scepter ele, both running the same build just different weapons and utilities. Engineers maybe bombs or grenades. The rest are stuck with only one competitive build.

I think this is a good time to step back and look at the meta as a whole and the issues that plague it.

So it could be said that power-based glass cannon roles are typical to things like thief, ele (fresh air or d/d), mesmers, some engi builds (discharge), and warrior. Now among all those, every single one has issues staying alive and contributing in the current meta. Theifs have mechanics such as stealth and mobility (reliable and consistent). Engi’s have decent disengage and some condi clear (elixirs if chosen). Ele’s have moderate condi clear, CC’s, and access to swiftness and Ride the Lightning. Warriors have some disengage, CC’s, a smidge of sustain, and a few condi handling utils and traits.

Mesmers have focus off hand and portal. We have some access to stealth but rarely is it sustained enough for disengage. We have some condi clear but its limited in either mechanic, effectiveness, or lengthy cool down.

The bottom line is all these classes are struggling in the current meta (with the exception of thief possibly). Thiefs and Eles are still run in high level play (ele being very rare) because managed correctly they can perform their role, bring unique benifits to a team, and stay alive enough to benefit the team. I think that being a liability to a team comes with the territory of being a glass cannon but in the same light, we need the tools to hide, disengage, or reset the fight in some manner so that when played correctly we can be a help to a team and have a chance to win other than pure insta-gibbing.

Pieces to this puzzle are there for mesmer (port, blink, null field, decoy, mass invis, etc..) but the issue lies that there is no real way to put these pieces together and still have a build that is powerful and effective in a team comp.

tldr; I don’t think its just mesmers that need looking at, I think glassy power builds in general are out of favor in the current meta and proper analysis and design needs to be implemented to get us back on par with attrition/condi based roles.