Guild Wars 2

the thing is that there is not much diversity in builds for most of the classes. lots of builds are not viable vs others so naturally everyone chooses the one build that is the mot powerful. if there was more builds, it would make pvp way more interesting. if we simply nerf every build it will lead to the next op meta…
we need buffs first, before we nerf. i mean rangers without the spirit build are going right back to bottom tier, same with necros. how about buffing classes like warriors at the right place. and also spvp and wvw needs to be split again as certain stuff in spvp seems up while it is extreemly powerful in wvw and certain things in wvw are up while they are very strong in spvp.

Mesmer is bottom of the list right now. Every other class can do it better. Zero Mesmers at PAX.

Xavi.6591:

Mesmer is bottom of the list right now. Every other class can do it better. Zero Mesmers at PAX.

I also don’t want to be pigeonholed into playing a Shatter build again.

Have you seen what S/P or S/D thieves do to Mesmers? They basically made mesmers worthless single handedly. In a purely 1on1 fight, a mesmer is absolutely helpless vs a properly skilled S/D thief, and this carries over into team games.

RaynStargaze.6510:

think with portals

Yo, thats my guild

This is pretty much the result of people talking “Mesmer is strong in PvP, doesn’t need buffs”. That’s just so wrong. Shatter Mesmer is strong. The rest is meh in PvP (mostly because of the only gametype atm).

The biggest fear I have at the moment are more useless interrupt buffs. I just can’t see interrupt builds work in GW2. Sigh. A game where everyone is spamming instacasts, on characters as big as a toenail and without any castbars. “Obvious” animations, and stuff.
Let’s make a class that’s focused on interrupts, sounds like a plan.

Dear arenanet, please don’t screw this. :/

Sabre.1275:

Have you seen what S/P or S/D thieves do to Mesmers? They basically made mesmers worthless single handedly. In a purely 1on1 fight, a mesmer is absolutely helpless vs a properly skilled S/D thief, and this carries over into team games.

That’s only to tpvp specs of mesmers. Rabid geared prismatic understanding stealth spam mesmers handle s/d thief very well, as can a proper phantasm mesmer.

It just so happens neither of those builds is tourney viable.

Part of any class that has problems with s/d thief is lack of sustained damage. If your build relies on damage spikes, s/d thieves will just mitigate you very easily.

Condi pressure specs do best against s/d thieves usually, and mesmer doesn’t have any viable ones for tpvp.

tetrodoxin.2134:

This is pretty much the result of people talking “Mesmer is strong in PvP, doesn’t need buffs”. That’s just so wrong. Shatter Mesmer is strong. The rest is meh in PvP (mostly because of the only gametype atm).

The biggest fear I have at the moment are more useless interrupt buffs. I just can’t see interrupt builds work in GW2. Sigh. A game where everyone is spamming instacasts, on characters as big as a toenail and without any castbars. “Obvious” animations, and stuff.
Let’s make a class that’s focused on interrupts, sounds like a plan.

Dear arenanet, please don’t screw this. :/

Precisely… only having the almighty shatter build is a flawed game design. They need to give Mesmer more options.

Bring superior rune of perplexity into pvp maybe? Idk just a thought.

tetrodoxin.2134:

This is pretty much the result of people talking “Mesmer is strong in PvP, doesn’t need buffs”. That’s just so wrong. Shatter Mesmer is strong. The rest is meh in PvP (mostly because of the only gametype atm).

I actually agree on this point and I think it might be one of the reasons mesmers can easily go from very strong to very weak with a few changes to other classes.

We have one build that has been viable for tpvp and it has been the same build for ages. Now that the shatter build has a strong counter due to beeing weak to both physical damage and conditions, we don’t have another build to turn to.

The build diversity for mesmers is just too narrow.

Why do people say “Shatter” is the only good Pvp build for a mesmer? For some people I’m even considered a “noob” (whatever that may be, to me it’s a common internet word used by ragequitters and know-it-alls) if I don’t shatter.

Thing is that I feel and play so much better with my own personal playstyle and build, and still people bash me for being different. I “nearly” allways win my 1 on 1 fights, I do know what to do on the pvp map, I help people out when they have need, and still I’m being bashed upon for not playing a shatter mesmer, sometimes even for just playing a mesmer.
Do I really have to follow internet builds just like everyone else to gain respect?

Tim.6810:

Why do people say “Shatter” is the only good Pvp build for a mesmer?

It is/was the best build for tpvp. Outside high end tpvp other builds do work, but for those coordinated team matches shatter just brought the most to the group.

Tim.6810:

Do I really have to follow internet builds just like everyone else to gain respect?

In all honesty. The noob caller is usually the worst player in the game ^^ I wouldn’t pay any attention to it if I were you. Play the spec that works for you and that you are having fun with. I don’t think any of us like being forced to play in one way and one way only.

Build diversity is actually not bad for the mesmer. There are basically a lot of possibilites, burst (shatter), dps (illusions/phantasms), conditions (shatter), support (mantra), deception (cc, glamour). I’d always consider the mesmer as one of the strongest classes in pvp, just because it becomes very hard for a player to get the mesmer when he is dropping his target consistently and then just tab targetting illusions. That’s horrible for single target DDs. Little design issue there – as long as the tab targetting isn’t fix’d, any buff to the mesmers illusions and deceptions will make him op. When it is fix’d, mesmer will be up.

The point about the mesmer builds is just, that some are either not needed (who needs a healer?), or buggy or just not very good compared to others. Mesmer isn’t the only one with this problem. That leaves him with 1-2 builds for pvp. For PvE mesmers definitly don’t need any buffs at all, rather nerfs.

Still the mesmer will always be good. He has the best utility ingame, is extremly useful for any kind of teamsetup, delivers high dmg and burst while still being hard to catch and he has an excellent skill:reward ratio. In his current state he definitly doesn’t need any buffs at all. His only problem is the condition spam meta, he is still playable, just not as broken overpowered as necromancers, spirit rangers and engineers.

After this current meta problem got adressed, it becomes arguable if the mesmer needs some changes. Spot on changes – buffs and nerfs.

Aether McLoud.1975:

jportell.2197:

Aether McLoud.1975:

jportell.2197:

Aether McLoud.1975:

Archaon.6245:

Jasher.6580:

With the shift in the meta, having a Mesmer on your team flat out gimps you in competitive play. How can we fix this?

Left mesmer atm and went back to thief and bunker guardian, waiting for it being viable again…with no stability or condition removal and opmancers everywhere you’re pretty much a dead player walking (And if you try to go let’s say, condition dmg, there’s no reason to bring a mesmer when you can get a fear to win necro instead, same for bunker…there are other classes way better than mesmers @ this)…portal alone is not enough to justify a mesmer in your team atm..gj anet, see you again next patch…maybe..40 sec cd on nullfield (And if you bring it you already lost burst/survivability/support) with necros spamming wells with a kittenload of conditions+fear+other random kitten 24/7? Please…

Mesmers have stability…

And like every other class that “doesn’t have stability” mesmers comes from a mantra that has a long-ish cooldown 2.75s cast time and takes up a slot on their utlity bar that could go to condi removal. Unfortunately unlike all other classes if a mesmer is to even be considered for tournament they have only one utility slot that is left open to personal preference.

Because every other class has stability with only 2 seconds cooldown on their weapon skills? Get real. Everyone has to lose something to get stability, and most of the time that’s a utility slot or trait, and is on a long cooldown. Unless you’re a guardian then you fart stability.

Its more along the lines that if a mesmer gets stability they get that and nothin else. To even be considered for tourney teams mesmers only have one utility skill that is personal preference what do you not get about that?

Stability mantra can be used 2 times in a row, breaks stuns, and only has a low cooldown of 25 seconds. That’s the lowest cooldown out of all stability skills, guardian included.

Also, to even be considered in a tourney team,

- elementalist need lightning flash and mistform, leaving only 1 utility slot for personal preference
- engineers need elixir R and bombkit, leaving only 1 utility slot for personal preference,
…

Maybe you get the drift.

haha sorry to say that but you are stupid…you just proved yourself wrong..
You see engineer takes bomb kit and elixir r
Elementalist lighning flash and mistform
Mesmer portal and rezz

BUUUUT what do portal and rezz help u in a fight? – nothing right..
Thank your for your attention

Peter Buch.8071:

Build diversity is actually not bad for the mesmer. There are basically a lot of possibilites, burst (shatter).

Note viable in the current meta.

Peter Buch.8071:

dps (illusions/phantasms)

Not viable in any meta.

Peter Buch.8071:

conditions (shatter)

Not viable in any prior metas.

Peter Buch.8071:

support (mantra)

Not viable in competitive arenas.

Peter Buch.8071:

deception (cc, glamour).

Not viable at all.

Jasher.6580:

Peter Buch.8071:

Build diversity is actually not bad for the mesmer. There are basically a lot of possibilites, burst (shatter).

Note viable in the current meta.

Peter Buch.8071:

dps (illusions/phantasms)

Not viable in any meta.

Peter Buch.8071:

conditions (shatter)

Not viable in any prior metas.

Peter Buch.8071:

support (mantra)

Not viable in competitive arenas.

Peter Buch.8071:

deception (cc, glamour).

Not viable at all.

+1

It strikes me that the phantasm build could almost be viable in the low organisation environment of solo queue. Out of curiousity, what does it lose to 1v1?

Mammoth.1975:

It strikes me that the phantasm build could almost be viable in the low organisation environment of solo queue. Out of curiousity, what does it lose to 1v1?

Spirit ranger/necro/HGH engi. Essentially anything that can put out high AOE condition damage. However coming from a mesmer the trait empowered illusions is the reason behind phantasm mesmers “OP”-ness. It is a relic from when clones did like 100 damage way back when. And was just never removed. If they want to adjust the phantasm build that is the trait to do it with.

Oh well, that kind of rules them out since most games have 5-6 of those classes.

I support the above. I don’t want to be pigeonholed into playing the same build as everyone else and am indeed running a berseker phantasms build in soloQ EU (20/20/0/30/0). The above is spot on :
- I think I’ve never killed a single spirit ranger 1-on-1, even with Moa, even against low ranks. I just flee off point if I see one coming.
- The only way to kill a necro is : A. Evade the fear spam. B. Get the Moa off. Insta lose if you miss any of this.
- Engies are tough because the AoE kills the phantasms while he has enough sustainability to survive the first bursts. That is still a better matchup than the two above though.
- S/D thieves are pretty tough too. A good S/D thief can evade telegraphed attacks, and that’s the case with phantasms. But that is fair, at least that is skill based.

hmm i think the problem with the current state of the mesmer is, that we indeed do have a ton of skills that are very different, but with our traits they cant be put all together into builds.

we have interrupts, and u can somewhat spec into them, but then we lose a lot in other places which we need to survive.

if we spec into glam, we have no dps and long cd’s

if we want more stealth then we need torch and that phantasm is just awful(massinvis cd is too long, decoy cd too long)

if we want speed we either need centaur runes or focus

if we wanna use those mantras, we need to trait them as they will be consistently interrupted and u die, they are not viable at all atm

also a lot of traits are weapon based….

all the nerfs have weakened the mesmers greatly and now our builds are more and more sorta puzzeled together into some middle builds instead of full builds…

Mammoth.1975:

It strikes me that the phantasm build could almost be viable in the low organisation environment of solo queue. Out of curiousity, what does it lose to 1v1?

Necromancer, Spirit Ranger, Shout Ranger, Stun Lock Warrior, Zerker Longbow Warrior, Engineer, Burst Elementalist, SD Thief, DP Thief and Symbol Guardian.

Jasher.6580:

Mammoth.1975:

It strikes me that the phantasm build could almost be viable in the low organisation environment of solo queue. Out of curiousity, what does it lose to 1v1?

Necromancer, Spirit Ranger, Shout Ranger, Stun Lock Warrior, Zerker Longbow Warrior, Engineer, Burst Elementalist, SD Thief, DP Thief and Symbol Guardian.

And the random kitchen sink thrown in there for good measure.

I LOVE MESMER. But they are garbage right now. Here are some of my gripes, in no particular order.

• If you spec for condi, you have to choose low health, low armor, or kitten damage. Condition application is slow and difficult compared to other prof’s condi builds. Clone spam is our easiest condition application and the traits are in the Power, Crit and Armor traitlines…

• If you spec for burst, you are so glassy that even taking condi removal skills is a waste. Shatter has always been about crit, so why our condition damage on the illusion tree?

• Deceptive evasion should be an adept trait to allow for build diversity.

• Phantasm specs are too easy to shut down now that the ret only lasts 5 seconds and they lost CD’s reduction across the board.

• Too much reliance on Phantasms and shatters for DPS. Our other weapon skills need more punch.

• Staff works far better as a power weapon than a condi one, since iWarlock’s damage only scales with power. Warlock should apply a condition (I vote torment).

• iMage, enough said… Okay, not quite. I like the idea of ret/confusion from a phant, but we REALLLLLLY need our weapon phantasms for DPS. Replace the confusion with a decent duration burn. Drop the ret and increase the base damage so he hits moderately hard. Reduce cooldown so it’s the same as other phants. Viola.

• Focus – it seems every other patch or so the reflect trait gets broken.

• Blurred frenzy – Might save your kitten , might do some dps, might have you eat a few thousand ret damage. The uncertainty makes it exciting.

• Scepter. Did anyone play test this weapon? Really? Are you sure?

• Illusionary leap pathing – OMFGWTFBBQ FIX THIS NAOOOW…. phew. Ok, done for now.

jportell.2197:

Jasher.6580:

Mammoth.1975:

It strikes me that the phantasm build could almost be viable in the low organisation environment of solo queue. Out of curiousity, what does it lose to 1v1?

Necromancer, Spirit Ranger, Shout Ranger, Stun Lock Warrior, Zerker Longbow Warrior, Engineer, Burst Elementalist, SD Thief, DP Thief and Symbol Guardian.

And the random kitchen sink thrown in there for good measure.

Or it could be the person playing the mesmer who is at fault….
Check the mesmer forums i recently posted my build that i use in 1v1s and that i have been using since the first week of this game.

Derps.7421:

Or it could be the person playing the mesmer who is at fault….
Check the mesmer forums i recently posted my build that i use in 1v1s and that i have been using since the first week of this game.

Okay Professor Literal Von Pedantic.
I still win almost all my 1v1’s. But I mark that up more to my thousands of games on the profession. In an actual team fight, as a back bunker, or a roamer, or any other role I might want to play, I’d rather take my warrior right now.

The ONLY exception to this right now for me is Skyhammer. And then all I really need is decoy and a focus for the hammer room.

Your build is fine, but it’s just zerker phantasm… I’m sure I could farm mad points in hotjoin with it, but it doesn’t address any of the issues with mesmer viability overall.

feliscatus.1430:

kitten s.7421:

Or it could be the person playing the mesmer who is at fault….
Check the mesmer forums i recently posted my build that i use in 1v1s and that i have been using since the first week of this game.

Okay Professor Literal Von Pedantic.
I still win almost all my 1v1’s. But I mark that up more to my thousands of games on the profession. In an actual team fight, as a back bunker, or a roamer, or any other role I might want to play, I’d rather take my warrior right now.

The ONLY exception to this right now for me is Skyhammer. And then all I really need is decoy and a focus for the hammer room.

Your build is fine, but it’s just zerker phantasm… I’m sure I could farm mad points in hotjoin with it, but it doesn’t address any of the issues with mesmer viability overall.

Take deeep breaths everything will be okay iiiiinnnnn and oooouuuuuttttt.
I was simply replying to the person who was complaining about mesmers losing 1v1s all the time. Also if you would rather take your warrior to tpvp over your mesmer i’d suggest actually playing a warrior. Also it’s Dr. Professor Literal Von Pedantic to you.

Derps.7421:

feliscatus.1430:

kitten s.7421:

Or it could be the person playing the mesmer who is at fault….
Check the mesmer forums i recently posted my build that i use in 1v1s and that i have been using since the first week of this game.

Okay Professor Literal Von Pedantic.
I still win almost all my 1v1’s. But I mark that up more to my thousands of games on the profession. In an actual team fight, as a back bunker, or a roamer, or any other role I might want to play, I’d rather take my warrior right now.

The ONLY exception to this right now for me is Skyhammer. And then all I really need is decoy and a focus for the hammer room.

Your build is fine, but it’s just zerker phantasm… I’m sure I could farm mad points in hotjoin with it, but it doesn’t address any of the issues with mesmer viability overall.

Take deeep breaths everything will be okay iiiiinnnnn and oooouuuuuttttt.
I was simply replying to the person who was complaining about mesmers losing 1v1s all the time. Also if you would rather take your warrior to tpvp over your mesmer i’d suggest actually playing a warrior. Also it’s Dr. Professor Literal Von Pedantic to you.

Well, the topic of the thread is mesmer viability. I’d rather take my mesmer to tpvp, but unfortunately that gimps my team. You’re basically saying it’s a L2P issue. It is not.

feliscatus.1430:

kitten s.7421:

feliscatus.1430:

kitten s.7421:

Or it could be the person playing the mesmer who is at fault….
Check the mesmer forums i recently posted my build that i use in 1v1s and that i have been using since the first week of this game.

Okay Professor Literal Von Pedantic.
I still win almost all my 1v1’s. But I mark that up more to my thousands of games on the profession. In an actual team fight, as a back bunker, or a roamer, or any other role I might want to play, I’d rather take my warrior right now.

The ONLY exception to this right now for me is Skyhammer. And then all I really need is decoy and a focus for the hammer room.

Your build is fine, but it’s just zerker phantasm… I’m sure I could farm mad points in hotjoin with it, but it doesn’t address any of the issues with mesmer viability overall.

Take deeep breaths everything will be okay iiiiinnnnn and oooouuuuuttttt.
I was simply replying to the person who was complaining about mesmers losing 1v1s all the time. Also if you would rather take your warrior to tpvp over your mesmer i’d suggest actually playing a warrior. Also it’s Dr. Professor Literal Von Pedantic to you.

Well, the topic of the thread is mesmer viability. I’d rather take my mesmer to tpvp, but unfortunately that gimps my team. You’re basically saying it’s a L2P issue. It is not.

In a 1v1 scenario it is. Yes you are right this thread is about Mesmer viability and i was responding to how they are still fine in 1v1s. Mesmers still have some of the best utility the only reason they are not being used much now is because they have always been weak against condis. Lower the gun and calm down. You obviously do not play a warrior. If you played a warrior you would actually know what it feels like to kitten your team. You are forgetting their are still more mesmers in tpvp teams then warriors. Now relax.

lol what people complaining about mesmers? im a full bunker and if ever let a mesmer’s shatter hit me im down with little to no health. I have also seen other players who were not neccessarily as tanky as myself die right away after a shatter. In fact, I have a mesmer myself insta killing people with shatters:S its funny though while people claiming mesmers are weak, still i constantly hear claims for mesmers to be further nerfed. Hearing both arguments Im not even sure what side to pick-.-

jportell.2197:

Arheundel.6451:

jportell.2197:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is fine, Necro is overpowered.

Anything else?

So necros, eles, guards, warriors, rangers, engis, and thieves are all OP and mesmer is the one that is fine instead? Please. Mesmer was the least represented class from all teams in all of the games for PAX both NA and EU. That should say something.

Are you seriously suggesting that mesmer needs help?

-most viable builds in the whole game ( 1.5 builds for ele and several for the mesmer)
-most polished set of utilities ( wanna compare mantra to conjure? mes signets to ele signets? maybe our glyphs? )
-most polished set of weapons ( ever seen a staff ele in tPvP? a focus ele?)

You complain that mesmers are overly weak to conditions when using a burst build…on my ele I need to trait for condition removal to survive this meta, I need to invest all my utilities to do that, a mesmer can have a burst build and still equip utilites that can change the fate of battle..or entire games ( portal-illusion of life- null field )

Other professions look at your utilities with envy, there is no choice for the other professions, it’s always 3-4 utilities out of 20, maybe there are only 3-4 utilities that I’ve never seen equipped on a mesmer ( mimic- feedback – signet of inspiration and midnight )

You’ve got not a single useless elite..not a single one, look at :

-ele : tornado – FGS
- engineer: mortar, elixir X

Like have you ever seen these elites being used during a serious tPvP match?

Eventually ranger and necro may be toned down a little but under no circumstances the mesmer should receive any buff whatsoever

Yes I am serioiusly suggesting that mesmer needs help. Ele has a signet that cures one condition every 10 seconds. FREAKING GODLY when compared to a mesmer condi removal… Oh wait we have condi removal?

Mesmer has the most viable builds? Are you flipping kidding me. Any team comp it is are you shatter? Yes. Okay, do you have IOL, Portal, Moa (it used to be timewarp).
That leaves ONE option for the mesmer to choose for their utilities.

Should I compare mantra to conjure… Hmmm how many mantra mesmers do you see running around top tier tourneys? I have seen some zerker eles that use FGS. Are conjure weapons on the whole a little lack luster. Sure.
Eles now have more than a couple viable builds thanks to the fresh air and not to mention you can trait for stability every 10 seconds. Did I MENTION YOU CAN TRAIT FOR STABILITY EVERY 10s?

Glyphs well now that GOEP is a stun breaker you are seeing more eles run it. Most run triple cantrip still because it is a stun breaker, with traits it grants regen which by the way can be also traited to cure a condition. If mesmers vitality line was that good we would be all over it I promise you that. But atm it is still one of the worst vit lines in the game and the worst line for mesmers hence why few people but phantasm mesmers go deep into inspiration at all.

Most polished set of weapons? Are you effing serious again. Only until recently has the mesmer greatsword not sucked (YAY FOR the illusionary berserker bug hitting for 1k a pass and missing entirely sometimes.)
Shall we compare mesmer scepter to ele scepter? How many ele scepter skills in air are instant cast and as such almost unblockable.
And yes I have seen a staff ele in pvp and he actually does amazing as a homepoint bunker. Maybe you should talk to him. Staff eles have problems because they try to do zerker things in melee range with a ranged weapon.

Mesmers are extremely weak to conditions compared to any other class. Your zerker ele may need to trait somewhat to get condi clear but you still have it in a weapon set and a FULL CONDI CLEAR IN YOUR HEALING SKILL mesmers spend 10pts to clear one condition every heal skill and few mesmers tank mantra of recovery because it sucks. After that we have to take nullfield which got somewhat of a buff but is still one of mesmers only choices for condi clear and if they bring that THEY DON"T HAVE A STUNBREAK

Continued>

serious L2P issue we got here mixed with QQ…
how about we buff necros,spirit ranger and engis too because they can only win 1v3 so lets make it 1v5 win?

After reading a few posts that basically say a whole lot about what other classes have better than a mesmer and very little about what actually makes a mesmer “unviable” which like meta is used in every other post these days. All i can find that makes mesmer nonviable is a problem with condition removal.

I have seen some ask for more damage given to the Mesmer but that kind of defeats the point in the class now doesn’t it?

Xeph.4513:

So because we don’t share the same balance views as yourself, it means thakittens fine to take shots at us ?
Sorry its just not making sense to me, because I also disagree with how you view balancing but you don’t see me coming on the forums and getting mad at you :<
just try and treat others as you would like to be treated is all I am saying.

But yes on topic, I do agree that mesmers at the moment are not viable in the meta, does that mean they are a weak class ? no
do they need buffs ? no
Fact of the matter is, that if necro and thief are nerfed, then mesmer will once again be viable and in my personal opinion a little too strong, espically damage wise, so what I would suggest is to:
Nerf the damage on berserker.
Remove the mightstacks given on mirror blade and replace it with regen/retaliation.
Reduce the mental torment trait to only giving 10% increased mindwrack damage.
Reduce Halting strike damage by 15% (its a free windwrack right now)

Hopefully that should bring them in line damage wise.
I am sure there are more things that need to be looked at, but I personally would start there.

I did not got mad at you. I’ve only criticized your view of balance and your contribution to the balance itself with a little bit of sour attitude.

It has never been talked in this topic about how strong Mesmers are by themselves. All suggestions are aimed to shift the meta to bring it again on what it was a couple of months ago, where mesmers were extremely strong and a must-take in every competitive team.

What I’ve criticized to you is that shifting the actual meta and putting mesmers on par with other professions are two important issues and none of them have the priority over the other.

People and you, unintentionally or not, looks like are saying that shifting the meta is more important at the moment that putting mesmers on par, which it isn’t.

sorrow.2364:

People and you, unintentionally or not, looks like are saying that shifting the meta is more important at the moment that putting mesmers on par, which it isn’t.

Sorry to burst your bubble but shifting the meta is a necessity right now. I main a mesmer since release, and i do agree with Xeph. Mesmers have its issues but they don’t need strong buffs in order to compete in this meta. Simple because this meta is wrong.

The meta is about mindless condi spam, fear spam, stun spam, pet spam, passive play > active skill. Just to name a few.

There needs to be some penalty for condi spam (one condi canceling the other, or not adding on intensity/time) so that it takes timing and coordination on when to use the right condi at the right time. Plus every skill that matters (strong skills) need to be able to be telegraphed so there is a reaction time.

saVdoom.2067:

sorrow.2364:

People and you, unintentionally or not, looks like are saying that shifting the meta is more important at the moment that putting mesmers on par, which it isn’t.

Sorry to burst your bubble but shifting the meta is a necessity right now. I main a mesmer since release, and i do agree with Xeph. Mesmers have its issues but they don’t need strong buffs in order to compete in this meta. Simple because this meta is wrong.

The meta is about mindless condi spam, fear spam, stun spam, pet spam, passive play > active skill. Just to name a few.

There needs to be some penalty for condi spam (one condi canceling the other, or not adding on intensity/time) so that it takes timing and coordination on when to use the right condi at the right time. Plus every skill that matters (strong skills) need to be able to be telegraphed so there is a reaction time.

Are you serious?
The meta was like that since release, even when Mesmer was viable.

You’re talking like 5-6 months ago meta wasn’t about Phantasms, mindless rotations, brain-dead bunkering, spam in general and non-telegraphed insta-gib combos.

You’re talking like non-telegraphed strong skills is a new issue, like Moa has some sort of telegraph.

Moa can be blocked/dodge/miss and interupt it have a reletevly long cast and cd what do you want a big sing over the mesmer ’’I’M CASTING MOA DODGE
’’

sorrow.2364:

saVdoom.2067:

sorrow.2364:

People and you, unintentionally or not, looks like are saying that shifting the meta is more important at the moment that putting mesmers on par, which it isn’t.

Sorry to burst your bubble but shifting the meta is a necessity right now. I main a mesmer since release, and i do agree with Xeph. Mesmers have its issues but they don’t need strong buffs in order to compete in this meta. Simple because this meta is wrong.

The meta is about mindless condi spam, fear spam, stun spam, pet spam, passive play > active skill. Just to name a few.

There needs to be some penalty for condi spam (one condi canceling the other, or not adding on intensity/time) so that it takes timing and coordination on when to use the right condi at the right time. Plus every skill that matters (strong skills) need to be able to be telegraphed so there is a reaction time.

Are you serious?
The meta was like that since release, even when Mesmer was viable.

You’re talking like 5-6 months ago meta wasn’t about Phantasms, mindless rotations, brain-dead bunkering, spam in general and non-telegraphed insta-gib combos.

You’re talking like non-telegraphed strong skills is a new issue, like Moa has some sort of telegraph.

My last paragraph was not meant for pos-necro-patch only. It was aimed at the improvement of the game in general.

My first 2 paragraphs are aimed mostly to the pos-necro-patch. Quite honestly previously to the patch we had a much more balanced meta.

If you look back at the top teams in NA back in that time, Ostrich’s team that won curse tournament had a necromanser, engineer, S/D thief, elementalist and guardian, 2 power, 2 condi, bunker setup. I’m not saying it was a decent/good meta for the game overall, but much better then what we have now.

TP had also the same setup with 2 condi, 2 power, bunker, with ranger, engineer, mesmer, elementalist and guardian.

Back then it was still about some mindless spamming, but atleast you could see that the elementalist used his full rotation into someone and that is why he died. You saw that berserk illusion wrecking the guy, so that is why he died, while the condi classes would support with cc’s and also keeping poison/burning into the target.

There is a good reason why back then we had 4k viewers in tournaments, while now we barely have 1.2k viewers in a tournament worth lotsa IRL money.

saVdoom.2067:

My first 2 paragraphs are aimed mostly to the pos-necro-patch. Quite honestly previously to the patch we had a much more balanced meta.

If you look back at the top teams in NA back in that time, Ostrich’s team that won curse tournament had a necromanser, engineer, S/D thief, elementalist and guardian, 2 power, 2 condi, bunker setup. I’m not saying it was a decent/good meta for the game overall, but much better then what we have now.

TP had also the same setup with 2 condi, 2 power, bunker, with ranger, engineer, mesmer, elementalist and guardian.

Back then it was still about some mindless spamming, but atleast you could see that the elementalist used his full rotation into someone and that is why he died. You saw that berserk illusion wrecking the guy, so that is why he died, while the condi classes would support with cc’s and also keeping poison/burning into the target.

There is a good reason why back then we had 4k viewers in tournaments, while now we barely have 1.2k viewers in a tournament worth lotsa IRL money.

Pre-necro-patch the balance was as horrible as it is now, as it was since launch.

The team composition has always been one for every team with little to no variations at all. Each patch just shifted everyone’s team composition to another.

Are you saying that now you can’t see what is killing you?
Before the HGH came popular (and then Necro), there was no conditions at all. It was all about burst damage and it was a bad meta just like this meta is, don’t pretend it isn’t true.

EU PAX finals had 4k+ viewers during summer time, back then it wasn’t summer time and if there was any loss of viewers, the only thing you can blame is the loss of interest due to the constant bad meta and not specifically this one, which isn’t more bad than the old ones.

aleks.5473:

Moa can be blocked/dodge/miss and interupt it have a reletevly long cast and cd what do you want a big sing over the mesmer ’’I’M CASTING MOA DODGE
’’

Considering that Moa completely shut me down for 10s, yes.
I rather want a big moa sign over Mesmer’s head instead of a generic pink non-telegraphed animation.

im sorry, but im not a hardcore spvp player at all, but i sometimes used to enjoy it. before the last patches and before all the nerfs, i felt viable and pretty much strong enough to fight people in spvp. when i played after that it was a nightmare. it’s not like i have gotten worse or an l2p issue, as i am used to way more dmg in wvw. in wvw u need thoughness, so build variety is even worse there!

my problems are:
i have no stunbreakers, no stability, arcane thievery misses 80 percent of the time and has an enourmous cd, nullfield same thing, mantras get interrupted consistently as i am not specing into mantras ever. btw moa? oh cmon it misses most of the time, the cd is risiculous and i’d rather use mass invis or tw.

i dont feel viable and pax shows that same problem too. anet has nerfed the mesmers to the ground and we are now trying to pick up the shards.

honestly if anet would get rid of moa, i wouldn’t mind, i’d rather had something else that this lame elite!

sorrow.2364:

saVdoom.2067:

My first 2 paragraphs are aimed mostly to the pos-necro-patch. Quite honestly previously to the patch we had a much more balanced meta.

If you look back at the top teams in NA back in that time, Ostrich’s team that won curse tournament had a necromanser, engineer, S/D thief, elementalist and guardian, 2 power, 2 condi, bunker setup. I’m not saying it was a decent/good meta for the game overall, but much better then what we have now.

TP had also the same setup with 2 condi, 2 power, bunker, with ranger, engineer, mesmer, elementalist and guardian.

Back then it was still about some mindless spamming, but atleast you could see that the elementalist used his full rotation into someone and that is why he died. You saw that berserk illusion wrecking the guy, so that is why he died, while the condi classes would support with cc’s and also keeping poison/burning into the target.

There is a good reason why back then we had 4k viewers in tournaments, while now we barely have 1.2k viewers in a tournament worth lotsa IRL money.

Pre-necro-patch the balance was as horrible as it is now, as it was since launch.

The team composition has always been one for every team with little to no variations at all. Each patch just shifted everyone’s team composition to another.

Are you saying that now you can’t see what is killing you?
Before the HGH came popular (and then Necro), there was no conditions at all. It was all about burst damage and it was a bad meta just like this meta is, don’t pretend it isn’t true.

EU PAX finals had 4k+ viewers during summer time, back then it wasn’t summer time and if there was any loss of viewers, the only thing you can blame is the loss of interest due to the constant bad meta and not specifically this one, which isn’t more bad than the old ones.

aleks.5473:

Moa can be blocked/dodge/miss and interupt it have a reletevly long cast and cd what do you want a big sing over the mesmer ’’I’M CASTING MOA DODGE
’’

Considering that Moa completely shut me down for 10s, yes.
I rather want a big moa sign over Mesmer’s head instead of a generic pink non-telegraphed animation.

That’s simply not true.

Pre patch viable classes:

Ele:
bunker/support
DPS

Guard:
Bunker

Messmer:
shatter

Thief:
SD
DP

Ranger:
BM
Trap

Engi:
Nodefighter
HGH

You had 6 classes with in sum 10 viable specs pre patch, what you have now:

Guard:
bunker

Engi:
Node/grenade

Thief:
sd

Ranger:
spirit

Necro:
Terror

War:
maybe

5,5 Classes and only 5/6 viable specs! Thats only the half like pre patch my friend!

Plus, in past the only class makes sense to stack was the elementalist, nowadays you can stack Ranger’s and Necro’s. So the Meta classes decreased even more.

The difference was just pre patch it made no sense to stack classes of getting zero advantage from, there was just no “OP S-Tier” Class left.

Now you’r getting a huge advantage by using 2x ranger or 2xnecro like in past were ele was a long time the S King.

Considering that Moa completely shut me down for 10s, yes.
I rather want a big moa sign over Mesmer’s head instead of a generic pink non-telegraphed animation.

[/quote]

you dont like it ok so lets arena net make it somthing like this give the moa skils more evasion and like 5k thufnes but reduse the cd 180 to 120-100 and make it unblokable the point it is not spike chiken some on but to disable his skils for 10 sec

aleks that is completely nonsense if they nerf moa i will quit the game because mesmers elite are REALLY really balanced atm and btw moa is almost the only thing a mesmer casts for a longer time so just open ur eyes its not that hard..srsly stop crying about mesmer its up anyways

prozon.3561:

That’s simply not true.

Pre patch viable classes:

Ele:
bunker/support
DPS

Guard:
Bunker

Messmer:
shatter

Thief:
SD
DP

Ranger:
BM
Trap

Engi:
Nodefighter
HGH

You had 6 classes with in sum 10 viable specs pre patch, what you have now:

Guard:
bunker

Engi:
Node/grenade

Thief:
sd

Ranger:
spirit

Necro:
Terror

War:
maybe

5,5 Classes and only 5/6 viable specs! Thats only the half like pre patch my friend!

Plus, in past the only class makes sense to stack was the elementalist, nowadays you can stack Ranger’s and Necro’s. So the Meta classes decreased even more.

The difference was just pre patch it made no sense to stack classes of getting zero advantage from, there was just no “OP S-Tier” Class left.

Now you’r getting a huge advantage by using 2x ranger or 2xnecro like in past were ele was a long time the S King.

You listed viable spec in the first part and optimal in the second one.

1. Elementalist bunker/support are still viable in the current meta. PAX representations proves I’m right. There is even the insta-spike build now which is optimal in the current meta that you didn’t mentioned.
2. D/P thief is still viable. Nothing has changed. It was once overshadowed by S/D and it still is.
3. BM and Trap are pretty much the same build
4. HGH is still viable

Check your facts and make that list again. Build variety is still the same, pre and post patch.

The only things that has changed is that Mesmers are for the first time since launch out of the god-tier. This is what makes you think that this meta is worse than the others.

Sensotix.4106:

aleks that is completely nonsense if they nerf moa i will quit the game because mesmers elite are REALLY really balanced atm and btw moa is almost the only thing a mesmer casts for a longer time so just open ur eyes its not that hard..srsly stop crying about mesmer its up anyways

Yeah. Open your eyes and look out for that asura raising his tiny arm among loads of clones and pinky things.

Very obvious and telegraphed for a 10s hard-cc.

^
To be fair, in regards to Moa it’s the only CC that really is “Crowd” Control. Unlike a stun or immobilize you are not shut down from movement or unable to attack, your base stats are the same, I’ve downed many mesmers while moaed, and the ones where I clearly couldn’t, escape was an option including doge. Moa really isn’t that effective outside of 1v1 duels and trolling, considering it’s long C/D even if yeah it is able to land if you set it up well.

On to the topic of mesmers being viable, Queens speech is coming up, and not to many announced content changes. Heres hoping we see some kind of meta balance, fingers crossed.

I’d rather see Ele and mesmer brought up to meet the meta not the current strong builds nerfed… Except Ranger healing, cuz that’s always been OP rofl. ^^;

Daishi.6027:

^
To be fair, in regards to Moa it’s the only CC that really is “Crowd” Control. Unlike a stun or immobilize you are not shut down from movement or unable to attack, your base stats are the same, I’ve downed many mesmers while moaed, and the ones where I clearly couldn’t, escape was an option including doge. Moa really isn’t that effective outside of 1v1 duels and trolling, considering it’s long C/D even if yeah it is able to land if you set it up well.

Moa is, in fact, extremely OP in small scale combats (1v1, 2v1, 2v2), because shutting down an enemy for 10s is really gamechanging for an encounter.

For instance, imagine that a Mesmer wants to take the far point, guarded by an engineer. Average profession will try to take down the engineer taking more than 10s+ (it isn’t easy to kill an engineer), giving the enemy team more than enough time to help their teammate.

What about mesmer? Stealth (if you want to be sure), Moa and the point is yours.
Either you burst down the enemy, which isn’t hard with a shatter build and your enemy has no defensive skills up, or you just let him run away and neutralize the point.

In both cases, you’ve won. Just because you’ve used a single skill. No elite has this potential in this game, that’s why it should be really looked at.

Supply crate/flesh golem charge/thieves guild/entangle. Its an elite and its mesmers only half way decent elite and if a mesmer MOAs an engi when the engi is at full health they are terrible players. Most mesmers that give a rip about the class want this skill removed and replaced with something else.

sorrow.2364:

Moa is, in fact, extremely OP in small scale combats (1v1, 2v1, 2v2), because shutting down an enemy for 10s is really gamechanging for an encounter.

For instance, imagine that a Mesmer wants to take the far point, guarded by an engineer. Average profession will try to take down the engineer taking more than 10s+ (it isn’t easy to kill an engineer), giving the enemy team more than enough time to help their teammate.

What about mesmer? Stealth (if you want to be sure), Moa and the point is yours.
Either you burst down the enemy, which isn’t hard with a shatter build and your enemy has no defensive skills up, or you just let him run away and neutralize the point.

In both cases, you’ve won. Just because you’ve used a single skill. No elite has this potential in this game, that’s why it should be really looked akittens

just too bad you can still dodge a shatter in Moa form, as well as easily kill a low-hp berserker Mesmer. Stupid OP Moa

Lol a stun-lock Warrior is far more dangerous to face than a Moa Mesmer in terms of getting stunned.

jportell.2197:

Supply crate/flesh golem charge/thieves guild/entangle. Its an elite and its mesmers only half way decent elite and if a mesmer MOAs an engi when the engi is at full health they are terrible players. Most mesmers that give a rip about the class want this skill removed and replaced with something else.

Those elites are not a sure win as much as Moa is, don’t fool yourself.
An engi that gets Moaed by a stealthed mesmer has nothing to blame his skills. Be serious jportell. Neither is Moaing someone at full health a bad tactic.

I think too that Moa should completely replaced with another elite, so it you think that too, don’t try to defent that stupid skill.

Dawdler.8521:

sorrow.2364:

Moa is, in fact, extremely OP in small scale combats (1v1, 2v1, 2v2), because shutting down an enemy for 10s is really gamechanging for an encounter.

For instance, imagine that a Mesmer wants to take the far point, guarded by an engineer. Average profession will try to take down the engineer taking more than 10s+ (it isn’t easy to kill an engineer), giving the enemy team more than enough time to help their teammate.

What about mesmer? Stealth (if you want to be sure), Moa and the point is yours.
Either you burst down the enemy, which isn’t hard with a shatter build and your enemy has no defensive skills up, or you just let him run away and neutralize the point.

In both cases, you’ve won. Just because you’ve used a single skill. No elite has this potential in this game, that’s why it should be really looked akittens

just too bad you can still dodge a shatter in Moa form, as well as easily kill a low-hp berserker Mesmer. Stupid OP Moa

Lol a stun-lock Warrior is far more dangerous to face than a Moa Mesmer in terms of getting stunned.

Are you aware that the shatter combo implies an immobilize which prevents dodging?
Are you aware that Moa in serious PvP situations isn’t used when mesmer is at low hp?

Stun-lock warrior is way less Dangerous. Once you manage to stunbreak one time, you only have to kite the warrior.

Not trying to defend it and I have been moa’d several times on my engi and just laughed while I fought back because I knew that mesmer wasn’t going to get me down in that time. Moa will only kill someone in 10s if they are pure glass in which case GG the mesmer waited until the enemies health was low. Or the person that got moad was focused by everyone on the other team.

And lets be real sorrow moaing anyone that is clearly a bunker at full health is idiotic to say the least

Fine, fine. Replace the Moa with an elite phantasm that immobilize and daze your opponent for 10s on a 10s cooldown.