Guild Wars 2

Sucks when Moa is cast on me during a Juggernaut form.
Not so much getting moa’d but the fact that I lose it and have to wait for a long cool down. Maybe if Rampage could be given immunity to Moa? Or a shorter cool down after reverting if cast during rampage?

Wow.

Now you know how necromancers and druids feel. Moa is stupid broken and completely moronic that it’s been allowed to exist for YEARS. Moa is used by mesmers and engineers specifically to deny people anything useful (astral, minions, shroud, etc).

The whole Moa skill (and Portal skill) should be removed from PvP, both are way too overpowered to be allowed in a pvp game

bah we need a way to counter these rolfstomps 1 shot forms and heal to full skills.

One of the VERY few counters there are for transformation. It is perfectly fine as is.

Does it kill minions if a necro gets it? Just you included them in your examples.
I’m not really for it being removed completely, but a nerf where it couldn’t be used if the target is in another form. Rampage, Shroud, Astral, Tornado. In WvW could extend to the race specific transformations like he Norn spirit forms. Immunity might be fairer on the Mesmer in that if I was in rampage for 10 seconds, get moa’d then get it back after reverting it would possibly be beneficial to me to be moa’d and renew.
Kind of unfair right now though, those forms are people’s elite skills or specials. A Mesmer can waste your elite skill then they get theirs back with Continuum Split.

mesmer moa can be blocked and dodged. So just block or dodge it.

Malediktus.3740:

The whole Moa skill (and Portal skill) should be removed from PvP, both are way too overpowered to be allowed in a pvp game

Moa and portal existed before the expansion but no one complained about it then, even when Moa lasted 10 seconds instead of it’s current 6. Why? Because power mesmer is hard countered by thief, something that every pro level team had and condi mesmer didn’t exist back then. Moa and portal is not the problem.

You are wrong about noone complaining. I can remember plenty of complains about Moa/Portal pre HoT.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Mesmer-Moa-skill my topic about moa skill from 2013

Malediktus.3740:

You are wrong about noone complaining. I can remember plenty of complains about Moa/Portal pre HoT.

Clearly you remember wrong then, no mesmers ran moa back before HoT because of the extremely long CD so everyone ran mass invis, it only became meta because of continuum shift lowering the CD to a minute and change.

GhostAirborne.6872:

mesmer moa can be blocked and dodged. So just block or dodge it.

really just dodge or block it how do i do that if you activate it in stealth and even by any chance i notice the signet and dodge it any decent mes uses f5 so it has it a second time and knowing that unless you’r a gaurd (which is actually what most people play now )
you wont be able to block it

Aitadis.8269:

Malediktus.3740:

You are wrong about noone complaining. I can remember plenty of complains about Moa/Portal pre HoT.

Clearly you remember wrong then, no mesmers ran moa back before HoT because of the extremely long CD so everyone ran mass invis, it only became meta because of continuum shift lowering the CD to a minute and change.

No I dont remember wrong

This is like saying “Rampage is broken OP, when a warrior goes into rampage I just get killed or have to run.”

Yeah, that’s the point. It’s an ELITE skill, what are you expecting? Things have counters, play more intelligently so you don’t get countered.

I do not think it is an OP feature of the skill that it cancels rampage/Celestial/shroud because it can be dodged/blocked. If you see the continuum split on the ground you should be ready to dodge a moa in any second. If you don’t notice the continuum split/fail to dodge the moa then it is your own fault that you get hit by it. With engineer moa, it is not really possible to dodge unless you predict it and get lucky but engineer just doesn’t have the damage to burst you down in the 3 seconds of moa they have so if you die because of engi moa, you were probably going to lose anyway, just not quite as quickly as you do when you get moa’d.

I have lost several 1v1s because of Mesmer moa cancelling my celestial avatar that I otherwise would have won, but does that make me think the skill is OP? Not at all. What it means is that I have to start paying more attention and learn to dodge a skill with a very obvious animation.

If a nerf absolutely has to be made I would suggest that it still cancels your special forms, but puts you back into them when the moa expires so you still get the chance to get at least some benefit from them however I do not think a nerf is needed at all.

Sinmir.6504:

Does it kill minions if a necro gets it?

Yes it does. Moa is basically a sure way to kill a necro.

I mean if you see a Rampage war / Lich Form necro you just kite them until it expires OR moa them and now they need to kite you until it expires. How is that not fair?

Sinmir.6504:

Sucks when Moa is cast on me during a Juggernaut form.
Not so much getting moa’d but the fact that I lose it and have to wait for a long cool down. Maybe if Rampage could be given immunity to Moa? Or a shorter cool down after reverting if cast during rampage?

heck no! No more immunity traits and spells! I think these are worse then any amulet ever made for pvp!

Kill Immunity and bring back Amulets for 2017

lol

GhostAirborne.6872:

I mean if you see a Rampage war / Lich Form necro you just kite them until it expires OR moa them and now they need to kite you until it expires. How is that not fair?

because when you kite the lich/rampage form you get access to all your skills and when the necro/warrior kites in moa form he gets 5 skills where one is kinda good and the rest is terrible.

I play mesmer alot. I dont think that one Moa is bad. Its the double Moa actually. I mean, its a bit much to be able to cast your elite skill twice in a row…

Moa is fine. I couldn’t imagine Mesmer without it :s.

Moa actually encourages people to use terrain and LOS to kite effectively, not just pop all cds and hope you don’t die. Agreed that they could re-design the 4 other skills on Moa, but it’s not crucial.

GhostAirborne.6872:

Moa actually encourages people to use terrain and LOS to kite effectively, not just pop all cds and hope you don’t die. Agreed that they could re-design the 4 other skills on Moa, but it’s not crucial.

Oh please tell me how to use LOS when you are defending a point. Pro tip: Its not possible without letting a decap happen.

Simple answer is if you can’t avoid the MOA while on rampage pick another elite. Transformations will always be a MOA magnet.

I’ve always quite liked how it can be used to cancel transformations. SoH has quite an obvious cast and pre-setup with CS so it’s just something you should think about when transforming on point with an enemy Mesmer is nearby. It certainly makes the game more interesting and oh my is this game in need of interesting things. Also, SoH is single target and a random evade frame, block or blind could nullify the entire thing so it requires some thoughtful use from the Mesmer to successfully counter a transformation in a team fight.

I don’t really see Toss Elixir X enough to really consider it problematic.

Simonoly.4352:

SoH has quite an obvious cast.

I don’t think I would call it an obvious cast. I mean turning purple and pointing is not that obvious especially since that is something what mesmers already do. It would be more obvious if the symbol actually apeared before turning moa like with necro’s signet of spite.

“my free decap/kill button has one counter, please remove it”

Current meta mesmer has 0 stealth so some arguments don’t quite add up. If you got moad by non-meta mesmers then you should have plenty of opportunities to fight against them with advantages. Stealth also doesn’t cover CS so as soon as you see purple cylinder you know some kitten is about to happen.

If mesmer used it the second time after CS, then he’s on 160-180s CD just like your rampage. So your “wait for a long cool down” goes both way as well except moa can miss by LOS/dodging and rampage doesn’t miss.

Funny you brought rampage up. Rampage has CC in 4/5 attacks, even the 3rd auto attack is a CC. If you don’t even want to dodge or kite by LOS then you have plenty of pressures to prevent mesmer from starting the cast. Put a target on mesmer if you have trouble while rampage. Your health has increased significantly and you have 25% damage reduction throughout duration, so prioritise your dodges wisely.

Moa morph should never have been in the game. It makes SPvP look like a circus.

phantom.1675:

Yeah, that’s the point. It’s an ELITE skill, what are you expecting?

As a Thief, I feel left out :-(

Kageseigi.2150:

phantom.1675:

Yeah, that’s the point. It’s an ELITE skill, what are you expecting?

As a Thief, I feel left out :-(

Elementalists feel your pain. We have been asking for an actual ELITE skill for a while now. What this thread is about, seems to be the GW2 equivalent to first world problems. Who cares that your great elite can get countered, when some professions don’t even have one decent elite?

Oh no my “I win” button has a counter if I don’t happen to be dodge rolling or aegised or invulnerable when it lands

duster.7013:

Oh no my “I win” button has a counter if I don’t happen to be dodge rolling or aegised or invulnerable when it lands

nice strawman

If you see a mesmer in a fight you better be watching it over and above any other player for that moa animation if you’re that concerned about being moa’d out of your transform. Other than that, l2p.

Kageseigi.2150:

phantom.1675:

Yeah, that’s the point. It’s an ELITE skill, what are you expecting?

As a Thief, I feel left out :-(

What would an elite skill worthy of Thief Elite look like?

kitten cd
instant cast
“Upon activation this skill deletes the targets player (note the player, not the toon) from existence.”

All things relative that should about cover it :D

Kageseigi.2150:

phantom.1675:

Yeah, that’s the point. It’s an ELITE skill, what are you expecting?

As a Thief, I feel left out :-(

But we have Basilisk Venom which is one of the best elites in the game.

Moa is a counter to very strong game changing transformations, this is a good thing. We need the game to offer counters to things not have everything be an almost guaranteed I press this button and I win.

Also Moa should be able to jump, would solve 90% of all Moa problems.

apharma.3741:

Moa is a counter to very strong game changing transformations, this is a good thing. We need the game to offer counters to things not have everything be an almost guaranteed I press this button and I win.

Also Moa should be able to jump, would solve 90% of all Moa problems.

What’s moa’s counter?

Tim.6450:

apharma.3741:

Moa is a counter to very strong game changing transformations, this is a good thing. We need the game to offer counters to things not have everything be an almost guaranteed I press this button and I win.

Also Moa should be able to jump, would solve 90% of all Moa problems.

What’s moa’s counter?

Stability, dodge obvious animation, LoS and use 5 whiled moaed, its high cd would balance it without F5

Brockolosso.8316:

Tim.6450:

apharma.3741:

Moa is a counter to very strong game changing transformations, this is a good thing. We need the game to offer counters to things not have everything be an almost guaranteed I press this button and I win.

Also Moa should be able to jump, would solve 90% of all Moa problems.

What’s moa’s counter?

Stability, dodge obvious animation, LoS and use 5 whiled moaed, its high cd would balance it without F5

I don’t think stability works given that it is a transformation and not a cc. The animation is not obvious (pointing and turning purple is not obvious for a mesmer). How do you loS on point? Skill 5 last what 2 seconds of the 6 plus you still cannot use your own skills.

Novuake.2691:

One of the VERY few counters there are for transformation. It is perfectly fine as is.

I was gonna say. There’s no counters to necro shroud or juggernaut or astral form other than moa. If you wanted to nerf moa, then consider what WoW does with sheep form — the enemy is sheeped, but you if you damage them they return to normal. At least then you wouldn’t be stuck for too long in moa form.

Tim.6450:

What’s moa’s counter?

Dodge.

Seriously, half my moas on my engie miss because of dodge.

Brockolosso.8316:

Stability, dodge obvious animation, LoS and use 5 whiled moaed, its high cd would balance it without F5

Stability won’t work, but blind/evade/block will all work against moa.

People shouldn’t expect to stroll through moa like the elite should do nothing. They can spend 3/4s on evade and draw 900 range based on skill 5 and kite another 600 range with skill 2. And if you didn’t use your dodge back then now would be the best time to dodge away attacks. That’s should buy 3s for you and the rest of the 3s is where this elite skill actually start working.

As for animation being obvious or not, currently there is a bug with quickness but otherwise its really to do with how well you focus on the mesmer and how experienced you are. If you got hit by it when not paying attention then its fair game, the purple glow is a visibly (100 range diameter I’d say?) radiating bright purple glow unlike other shatter effects and its a good 1s cast. Average human reaction is 0.25s so you should have plenty of time to react to. I really don’t want to say L2P but nitpicking on animation details makes people look really bad, especially its been around for years and become popular for 2-3 seasons already.

Vagrant.7206:

There’s no counters to necro shroud.

Actually there is a counter to necro shroud: don’t let the necro get shroud. honestly if people expect that necro has no shroud when they just attack through spectral armor then that’s their fault.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

That’s should buy 3s for you and the rest of the 3s is where this elite skill actually start working.

That’s not true, the elite already worked for 3 second by denying your skills.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

As for animation being obvious or not, currently there is a bug with quickness but otherwise its really to do with how well you focus on the mesmer and how experienced you are. If you got hit by it when not paying attention then its fair game, the purple glow is a visibly (100 range diameter I’d say?) radiating bright purple glow unlike other shatter effects and its a good 1s cast. Average human reaction is 0.25s so you should have plenty of time to react to. I really don’t want to say L2P but nitpicking on animation details makes people look really bad, especially its been around for years and become popular for 2-3 seasons already.

However aside me forcing to recognizing diferent kids of purple it gets even worse when the different kinds of purple starts to overlap. It’s really not that obvious.

Tim.6450:

That’s not true, the elite already worked for 3 second by denying your skills.

However aside me forcing to recognizing diferent kids of purple it gets even worse when the different kinds of purple starts to overlap. It’s really not that obvious.

So you’re saying you can’t play without your own sets of skills for 6 seconds even if you can survive perfectly well half of that duration? Then there isn’t really much to discuss here, clearly you have different priorities.

It’s really pointless to discuss your own subjective opinions on whether it is obvious when fact is the counters and animations are all there. Best to go to HotM and find the NPC mesmer there, he spams moa a lot. Sometimes even in stealth unlike meta mesmers

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Tim.6450:

That’s not true, the elite already worked for 3 second by denying your skills.

However aside me forcing to recognizing diferent kids of purple it gets even worse when the different kinds of purple starts to overlap. It’s really not that obvious.

So you’re saying you can’t play without your own sets of skills for 6 seconds even if you can survive perfectly well half of that duration? Then there isn’t really much to discuss here, clearly you have different priorities.

It’s really pointless to discuss your own subjective opinions on whether it is obvious when fact is the counters and animations are all there. Best to go to HotM and find the NPC mesmer there, he spams moa a lot. Sometimes even in stealth unlike meta mesmers

if it takes more than 6 seconds to kill any class thats not a tank when they cant do anything your doing it wrong.also i would like to point its a lot longer than 6 seconds when you consider what it does to people. ruining berzerker and completely killing any necro that goes against a mesmer.

What is actually funny, warrior is probably best class to survive moa on due to passives and high HP xD

But ok, let’s look at it from receiving side: a warrior went rampage. What are you gonna do? Can’t CC them due to perma stab, can’t blind them due to perma resistance. You can either port away (running away doesn’t work) or use all your dodges/invuls/blocks while warrior is literary rolling his face on keyboard. Rampage is down, you are w/o Cds while war can return to his rotation and finish you off if you actually managed to survive rampage.

I think it is ok that moa removes rampage and i don’t even play mes/engi. Whether it is ok for moa to be affected by continuum split/haste is different story.

ah but they can do something with moa skills, I don’t mind that you don’t read my post before. But surely you won’t just stand there or simply hit 5 and hope for the best?

What it does beyond that 6s is, tbh, beyond the scope of this skill. I don’t see the end result of discussing it. There’re many more possibilities before and after that you can’t possibly describes every good or bad scenario. Moad player may as well be dead, but his teammates may res him up if he’s down, he may go into shroud right after moa, berserker stances may still go on and provide additional opportunities to survive and fight back.

Tim.6450:

Vagrant.7206:

There’s no counters to necro shroud.

Actually there is a counter to necro shroud: don’t let the necro get shroud. honestly if people expect that necro has no shroud when they just attack through spectral armor then that’s their fault.

That’s not really a counter. Necro has several unblockable attacks that give life force, as well as the fact that you’re asking people to just ignore you when you activate spectral armor, which can be difficult to spot in a big fight, just like moa casting.

ruining berzerker and completely killing any necro that goes against a mesmer.

There’s no counter to berserker mode BESIDES moa. You have perma stability, massive HP regen, and plenty of blocks and damage ignorance to go with it. A well-placed moa says “screw your passives” and reverses that. And moa can’t be spammed with any particular frequency either. It’s on a long cooldown.

As for necro, most of the time I see it being used against necro is when they enter shroud in order to not die when they’re being focused. Good necros stay far enough away from the fight to nuke without getting focused. Moa is pointless if the necro isn’t under any real threat.

And with celestial form, at least it helps counter the ridiculous heal-to-full and stealth skills they have.

I’d also like to point out that if you do get moa’d… you do have skills still. As soon as I get moa’d, I pop #5 because it’s an evade that lasts a significant length of the moa spell. And I still have evades…

The only time moa is a real threat is if you’re getting focused already — if you’re not in any particular danger, it really isn’t a threat.

Vagrant.7206:

Tim.6450:

Vagrant.7206:

There’s no counters to necro shroud.

Actually there is a counter to necro shroud: don’t let the necro get shroud. honestly if people expect that necro has no shroud when they just attack through spectral armor then that’s their fault.

That’s not really a counter. Necro has several unblockable attacks that give life force, as well as the fact that you’re asking people to just ignore you when you activate spectral armor, which can be difficult to spot in a big fight, just like moa casting.

ruining berzerker and completely killing any necro that goes against a mesmer.

There’s no counter to berserker mode BESIDES moa. You have perma stability, massive HP regen, and plenty of blocks and damage ignorance to go with it. A well-placed moa says “screw your passives” and reverses that. And moa can’t be spammed with any particular frequency either. It’s on a long cooldown.

As for necro, most of the time I see it being used against necro is when they enter shroud in order to not die when they’re being focused. Good necros stay far enough away from the fight to nuke without getting focused. Moa is pointless if the necro isn’t under any real threat.

And with celestial form, at least it helps counter the ridiculous heal-to-full and stealth skills they have.

I’d also like to point out that if you do get moa’d… you do have skills still. As soon as I get moa’d, I pop #5 because it’s an evade that lasts a significant length of the moa spell. And I still have evades…

The only time moa is a real threat is if you’re getting focused already — if you’re not in any particular danger, it really isn’t a threat.

because shroud is a ranged attack. yeah right….

sophiewhite.3149:

Vagrant.7206:

Tim.6450:

Vagrant.7206:

There’s no counters to necro shroud.

Actually there is a counter to necro shroud: don’t let the necro get shroud. honestly if people expect that necro has no shroud when they just attack through spectral armor then that’s their fault.

That’s not really a counter. Necro has several unblockable attacks that give life force, as well as the fact that you’re asking people to just ignore you when you activate spectral armor, which can be difficult to spot in a big fight, just like moa casting.

ruining berzerker and completely killing any necro that goes against a mesmer.

There’s no counter to berserker mode BESIDES moa. You have perma stability, massive HP regen, and plenty of blocks and damage ignorance to go with it. A well-placed moa says “screw your passives” and reverses that. And moa can’t be spammed with any particular frequency either. It’s on a long cooldown.

As for necro, most of the time I see it being used against necro is when they enter shroud in order to not die when they’re being focused. Good necros stay far enough away from the fight to nuke without getting focused. Moa is pointless if the necro isn’t under any real threat.

And with celestial form, at least it helps counter the ridiculous heal-to-full and stealth skills they have.

I’d also like to point out that if you do get moa’d… you do have skills still. As soon as I get moa’d, I pop #5 because it’s an evade that lasts a significant length of the moa spell. And I still have evades…

The only time moa is a real threat is if you’re getting focused already — if you’re not in any particular danger, it really isn’t a threat.

because shroud is a ranged attack. yeah right….

The time when Moa is a problem for necros is when they are in the fray. That generally only happens when they are prepared to attack or getting focused on. If they are prepared, they can survive the moa.

WHY YOU USING THIS ELITE SKILL.

This skill shouldn’t exist even, it should be changed into hp buff.