Guild Wars 2

Shouldn’t you start by nerfing the value to perhaps 75% and allow players “test” from there? Going from 100% to 50% seems a bit extreme does it not? Is the goal to butcher the value and steadily increase it to “work as intended” so people will not complain about vigor constantly being nerfed?

We have too many dodges in game.

i missed this change, was it on the same page as the trait changes ?

iirc, it was first supposedly being buffed to 120%. I was surprised seeing Vigor nerfed by 50% instead lol..

i’m just wondering if it was a good idea with the new power creep damage some classes get.

idk anet went with the easy way again…. call to arms coused most of the vigor poroblems but why nerf it? ahh its warrior stuff i see….
tanky ish specs like dd ele, cele engi who had 50% uptime easy… (+60% in teamfight from CtA)
vigor indeed needed a tonedown but in the side of the skills that providing it, not yolo easywork lets nerf to 50%… guess anet didnt think about squishy specs who actually RELY on evades 0-24 to not get killed while above mentioned ones just gonna take a big sigh and pretend like noothing happened.

Terrorsquad.2349:

iirc, it was first supposedly being buffed to 120%. I was surprised seeing Vigor nerfed by 50% instead lol..

That’s incorrect. Acrobat thieves were going up to 120% with a trait. That still exists. Baseline will be 50%, and Acro thieves improve it to 75%. Acro will still gain more dodges than most professions/builds.

Terrorsquad.2349:

iirc, it was first supposedly being buffed to 120%. I was surprised seeing Vigor nerfed by 50% instead lol..

That’s incorrect. Acrobat thieves were going up to 120% with a trait. That still exists. Baseline will be 50%, and Acro thieves improve it to 75%. Acro will still gain more dodges than most professions/builds.

I don’t know but from what I understand the text:
Guardian:
Purity of Body: Your virtue of resolve passive effect also regenerates endurance by 15%.
Endurance: Passive 15% and with Vigor on Guardian will have 65%

Ranger:
Natural Vigor: Increases your endurance regeneration by 20%.
Endurance: Passive 20% and with Vigor on ranger will have 70%.

Thief:
Endless Stamina: The effects of vigor on you are enhanced by 50%.
Endurance: No Passive but with Vigor on thief have 75%

Engineer:
Adrenal Implant: Endurance regeneration is increased by 50%.
Endurance: Passive 50% and with Vigor on Engi will have 100%.

Therefore, Engi will be the best class at this. Thief, Mesmer and Warrior got Nerf. And Necro got indirect Buff.

It’s a good thing in general but i agree power creep and stealth needs to be under control or it will be really difficult to survive if you don’t have stealth/disengage/inv. etc.

Weakness will become a totally counter to Vigor.

I just don’t like the idea of global nerf. Some casses indeed depend on vigor because they do not have such strong base defensive mechanisms, I honestly don’t understand this nerf much, especially after buffing some classes so much.

Those endurance traits have never stacked with vigor, no reason why they should start stacking now. The nerf to vigor is good though, it’s just way to strong as it is now.

Penguin.7906:

Those endurance traits have never stacked with vigor, no reason why they should start stacking now. The nerf to vigor is good though, it’s just way to strong as it is now.

And its now correctly countered by weakness.

Penguin.7906:

Those endurance traits have never stacked with vigor, no reason why they should start stacking now. The nerf to vigor is good though, it’s just way to strong as it is now.

No body said endurance traits never stack with Vigor but it was endurance has a cap at 100% that make those traits useless but now it will open the option to use those traits.

Best change in the patch. Brainless dodge spam sucks

Now if only we could dramatically reduce brainless proc damage.

It’s kinda silly to nerf Vigor, yet buffing vigor on some classes, so the classes that really need that dodge got nerfed to ground, while the classes that can spam dodges can spam as much as they used to…

Toxsa.2701:

It’s kinda silly to nerf Vigor, yet buffing vigor on some classes, so the classes that really need that dodge got nerfed to ground, while the classes that can spam dodges can spam as much as they used to…

Still went down overall. Only one that really bothers me is the Engineer one, but I’m so done thinking about Engineer at this point…

I like it, for several reasons:

- a little less dodging makes dodging more important and more skill is required to actually use dodges effectively.
- Energy-Sigils might become more important and we might see less Air/Fire…..
- There are tons of upcoming “on-dodge” or “on-evade” triggered traits, like the bomb with blast-finisher on Engi, reflect on Mesmer and so on, so a little less dodges might be needed to balance this out.
- Vigor is to important as it is and there are certain classes (in other words, there is the necro), that has no access to it. Nerfing vigor will balance this huge drawback of the necro out a bit.

PowerBottom.5796:

I like it, for several reasons:

- a little less dodging makes dodging more important and more skill is required to actually use dodges effectively.
- Energy-Sigils might become more important and we might see less Air/Fire…..
- There are tons of upcoming “on-dodge” or “on-evade” triggered traits, like the bomb with blast-finisher on Engi, reflect on Mesmer and so on, so a little less dodges might be needed to balance this out.
- Vigor is to important as it is and there are certain classes (in other words, there is the necro), that has no access to it. Nerfing vigor will balance this huge drawback of the necro out a bit.

Think about it, they’re removing those vit/toughness from traitlines, they’re moving all that stats into more power creep, and then they nerf vigor..

Guess alot of people would be whining about mesmer, ranger, and thief post patch.

PowerBottom.5796:

I like it, for several reasons:

- a little less dodging makes dodging more important and more skill is required to actually use dodges effectively.
- Energy-Sigils might become more important and we might see less Air/Fire…..
- There are tons of upcoming “on-dodge” or “on-evade” triggered traits, like the bomb with blast-finisher on Engi, reflect on Mesmer and so on, so a little less dodges might be needed to balance this out.
- Vigor is to important as it is and there are certain classes (in other words, there is the necro), that has no access to it. Nerfing vigor will balance this huge drawback of the necro out a bit.

I thought about some of what you’re saying as well. Its true that once the patch hits dodging will need to be more about skill and less about randomness… for some classes… Thief for example will be able to dodge even more often than they can now >.< … If I am understanding that 75% bonus vigor trait buff correctly, its an additional 75% right? accumulating to 120% endurance regen when also effected by vigor?

Grimreaper.5370:

PowerBottom.5796:

I like it, for several reasons:

- a little less dodging makes dodging more important and more skill is required to actually use dodges effectively.
- Energy-Sigils might become more important and we might see less Air/Fire…..
- There are tons of upcoming “on-dodge” or “on-evade” triggered traits, like the bomb with blast-finisher on Engi, reflect on Mesmer and so on, so a little less dodges might be needed to balance this out.
- Vigor is to important as it is and there are certain classes (in other words, there is the necro), that has no access to it. Nerfing vigor will balance this huge drawback of the necro out a bit.

I thought about some of what you’re saying as well. Its true that once the patch hits dodging will need to be more about skill and less about randomness… for some classes… Thief for example will be able to dodge even more often than they can now >.<

Completely wrong. Read patch notes and feline grace (how it works now) again please.

MatthiasL.5346:

Grimreaper.5370:

PowerBottom.5796:

I like it, for several reasons:

- a little less dodging makes dodging more important and more skill is required to actually use dodges effectively.
- Energy-Sigils might become more important and we might see less Air/Fire…..
- There are tons of upcoming “on-dodge” or “on-evade” triggered traits, like the bomb with blast-finisher on Engi, reflect on Mesmer and so on, so a little less dodges might be needed to balance this out.
- Vigor is to important as it is and there are certain classes (in other words, there is the necro), that has no access to it. Nerfing vigor will balance this huge drawback of the necro out a bit.

I thought about some of what you’re saying as well. Its true that once the patch hits dodging will need to be more about skill and less about randomness… for some classes… Thief for example will be able to dodge even more often than they can now >.<

Completely wrong. Read patch notes and feline grace (how it works now) again please.

lol you’re a tad too late I edited my post questioning that trait. good to know

No, thieves are taking a huge hit in terms of being able to dodge. Feline grace is receiving quite a nerf. Between Feline Grace + Vigor, thieves can dodge spam pretty hard, just with that. Combine that with a weapon set like S/D & Energy Sigils plus a signet to restore endurance on use and gawd, dodges for days, it really is quite stupid at the moment.

The changes to both vigor and feline grace are going to effectively kill quite a bit of thief dodging as endurance fills are exponentially stronger with feline grace how it works now. How it works post-patch though … ouch.

Makes me glad I got used to playing w/ little vigor and no feline grace.

Anyway, I think the truly crappy changes to acro though is where there’s no longer a 10% damage buff from GM minor trait. That’s just overkill to the traitline.

MadVisions.4529:

tanky ish specs like dd ele, cele engi who had 50% uptime easy… (+60% in teamfight from CtA)
vigor indeed needed a tonedown but in the side of the skills that providing it, not yolo easywork lets nerf to 50%… guess anet didnt think about squishy specs who actually RELY on evades 0-24 to not get killed while above mentioned ones just gonna take a big sigh and pretend like noothing happened.

Not true at all!
D/D eles have 100%+ uptime (renewing stamina every 5sec for 5sec without boon duration+all cantrips 6s/each) Thus they don’t even run Sigil of Energy which would be a great fit for them with their Evasive Arcana trait.

now that vigour is 50% you don’t even need renewing stamina because the scepter trait is a perm 50% increase.

Kicker.8203:

MadVisions.4529:

tanky ish specs like dd ele, cele engi who had 50% uptime easy… (+60% in teamfight from CtA)
vigor indeed needed a tonedown but in the side of the skills that providing it, not yolo easywork lets nerf to 50%… guess anet didnt think about squishy specs who actually RELY on evades 0-24 to not get killed while above mentioned ones just gonna take a big sigh and pretend like noothing happened.

Not true at all!
D/D eles have 100%+ uptime (renewing stamina every 5sec for 5sec without boon duration+all cantrips 6s/each) Thus they don’t even run Sigil of Energy which would be a great fit for them with their Evasive Arcana trait.

You do realize that eles are quite squishy and actually need the vigor? They don’t have that many stuff to survive, having now 50% less vigor is kittened. Not everyone plays d/d, but we might have to.

Kicker.8203:

MadVisions.4529:

tanky ish specs like dd ele, cele engi who had 50% uptime easy… (+60% in teamfight from CtA)
vigor indeed needed a tonedown but in the side of the skills that providing it, not yolo easywork lets nerf to 50%… guess anet didnt think about squishy specs who actually RELY on evades 0-24 to not get killed while above mentioned ones just gonna take a big sigh and pretend like noothing happened.

Not true at all!
D/D eles have 100%+ uptime (renewing stamina every 5sec for 5sec without boon duration+all cantrips 6s/each) Thus they don’t even run Sigil of Energy which would be a great fit for them with their Evasive Arcana trait.

I still used sigil of energy on my ele when I played d/d or d/f, which I felt I needed especially since I prefered using a zerker amulet. Energy sigil basically made up for being forced to use dodges with EA. And depending on the class/build I fought, I needed every one of those dodges as quickly as I could obtain them in order to avoid very devastating cc or dmg.

I still have not seen any official word on this vigor change and whether or not endurance regeneration boosting traits stack with it (i.e. adrenal implant). Would appreciate if someone had something official to site, as we wouldn’t want another “ascended stats +10%” situation.

Yeah I think I agree. 75% would have been a good start to see how it goes. Half as effective is just going to make Air/fire and similar very oppressive.

Novuake.2691:

Yeah I think I agree. 75% would have been a good start to see how it goes. Half as effective is just going to make Air/fire and similar very oppressive.

No, this is a GREAT change. They just need to now apply this to Fire/Air/Geomancy. Nerf them to the ground and we can actually start playing a decent game.

Good change. But this makes Energy sigil mandatory for most builds, so I say: nerf that too.

It’s a really good change that should curtail some of the dodge spam. They’ll just need some time to re-balance some traits around the new reality.

Khenzy.9348:

Good change. But this makes Energy sigil mandatory for most builds, so I say: nerf that too.

Don’t nerf it. Anything that gives incentive to not double up on burst sigils (fire/air), I’m perfectly happy with. Several already used Energy, so, nbd.

Jekkt.6045:

now that vigour is 50% you don’t even need renewing stamina because the scepter trait is a perm 50% increase.

That trait won’t exist after Tuesday. On the other hand warrior can now achieve truly permanent vigour but equipping signet of stamina.

Novuake.2691:

Yeah I think I agree. 75% would have been a good start to see how it goes. Half as effective is just going to make Air/fire and similar very oppressive.

75% bonus to endurace regeneration would make your dodge regenerating in 5,7s instead of 5, not really much of a difference. On the other hand, 50% bonus makes it 6,6(6)s. It’s not that severe.

ronpierce.2760:

Novuake.2691:

Yeah I think I agree. 75% would have been a good start to see how it goes. Half as effective is just going to make Air/fire and similar very oppressive.

No, this is a GREAT change. They just need to now apply this to Fire/Air/Geomancy. Nerf them to the ground and we can actually start playing a decent game.

To the ground, no, nerf yes.

i’m not sure if sigils count as a crit, if so, remove the ability to crit on them which should bring the damage down. otherwise nerf it by 30%.

This is direct ele stealth nerf :P The only squishy profession that desperately needs to dodge in order to stay alive – no build in survivability

Point is, some classes depend more on vigor/dodge then others and are hurt by this change more. Most likely anet did not take that into account and did not made any compensation to them.

Nutshel.7264:

This is direct ele stealth nerf :P The only squishy profession that desperately needs to dodge in order to stay alive – no build in survivability

Point is, some classes depend more on vigor/dodge then others and are hurt by this change more. Most likely anet did not take that into account and did not made any compensation to them.

I kind of does seem that way but I do think Anet “compensated” for it as well. More heal on EA dodge in spvp, cray cray blinding ashes blinds, potential 13 second shocking aura cd along with tempest defense shocking aura trait when cc’d, 10% dmg reduction earth minor when in 360 range… I’d rather actively avoid attacks though opposed to randomly or passively soaking up damage dealt. I don’t feel as good about winning a fight when I’m just basically surviving off of traits I picked up which I have no control over….

Grimreaper.5370:

Nutshel.7264:

This is direct ele stealth nerf :P The only squishy profession that desperately needs to dodge in order to stay alive – no build in survivability

Point is, some classes depend more on vigor/dodge then others and are hurt by this change more. Most likely anet did not take that into account and did not made any compensation to them.

I kind of does seem that way but I do think Anet “compensated” for it as well. More heal on EA dodge in spvp, cray cray blinding ashes blinds, potential 13 second shocking aura cd, 10% dmg reduction when in 360 range… I’d rather actively avoid attacks though opposed to randomly or passively soaking up damage dealt. I don’t feel as good about winning a fight when I’m just basically surviving off of traits I picked up which I have no control over….

I don’t think people are worried about the survability of d/d ele, but that might be the only viable build out there. Class survability shouldn’t have to be taken care of by taking specific traits, it exactly leads to the problem we have now. Ele is forced into taking traits to have some decent survability, but that totally shuts down any build diversity.

I kind of could not find it: does this also mean that endurance regeneration is capped at 150% of base, or will it still be up to 200% base?

If I am correct engis still have a trait that gives 50% more endurance regeneration by default. This is now not only equivalent to perma vigor, if the cap is still 100% it would actually also STACK with vigor (I think engis are now the only ones with such a trait, or am I missing something?).

In any case, traits granting 50% endurance regen by default cannot possibly allowed to exist after this change.

Too many dodges. Too many random procs.

And I don’t mean just fire air cuz that’s whatever at this point.

Grimreaper.5370:

Nutshel.7264:

This is direct ele stealth nerf :P The only squishy profession that desperately needs to dodge in order to stay alive – no build in survivability

Point is, some classes depend more on vigor/dodge then others and are hurt by this change more. Most likely anet did not take that into account and did not made any compensation to them.

I kind of does seem that way but I do think Anet “compensated” for it as well. More heal on EA dodge in spvp, cray cray blinding ashes blinds, potential 13 second shocking aura cd along with tempest defense shocking aura trait when cc’d, 10% dmg reduction earth minor when in 360 range… I’d rather actively avoid attacks though opposed to randomly or passively soaking up damage dealt. I don’t feel as good about winning a fight when I’m just basically surviving off of traits I picked up which I have no control over….

Yeah though ele can’t get all of these and we lost more then just vigor.
- no more healing power/vitality from water trailine
- no more toughness from earth – the minor trait doesn’t compensate at all(somebody did the math stating that previous 20% barely compensated for lost toughness – did not check that myself)

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Endurance

“Endurance is the resource used to dodge incoming attacks to evade them. The endurance pool is shown as a yellow bar just above the health orb.

Each dodge requires 50% endurance, meaning that characters can dodge twice in a row when at 100% endurance. Endurance regenerates over time, at a base rate of 5% per second and a max rate of 10% per second – effects which grant additional endurance regeneration do not stack beyond double the normal rate – for instance, any additional endurance regeneration while under effects of boon vigor (which already grants maximum increase in regeneration rate) has no effect."

After patch 1 Dodge every:

• 10s
• 6.67s with vigor
• 20s with weakness
• 5.7s for thieves with improved vigor

Not a huge change.

Is my typical S/D thief still okay?

Now that vigor is only 50%… I will still have withdraw equipped but I run the type of food that gives the following bonuses:

• 100% chance to gain might on dodge
• +40% endurance refill rate

So that means 90% endurance refill rate yes/no? I’m kind of confused..

EDIT: whoops sorry! Wrong forum thread, I thought this was WvW one haha. Ignore this unless you actually do wish to answer!

Lordrosicky.5813:

Best change in the patch. Brainless dodge spam sucks

This ^.

The vigor change is one of the top 5 changes coming with the class balance. It will reduce the evade spam some builds can get. It will also make all those extra endurance traits/skills/food have a use in the game.

xDudisx.5914:

Lordrosicky.5813:

Best change in the patch. Brainless dodge spam sucks

This ^.

The vigor change is one of the top 5 changes coming with the class balance. It will reduce the evade spam some builds can get. It will also make all those extra endurance traits/skills/food have a use in the game.

That would be okay if they actually buffed the passive defences of classes that depend on vigor, you know. But if they’re going to do this major nerf and it’ll be the only thing nerfed, what good is it going to do?

Literally its a good change because compared to now its not that big of a change to how many times you dodge with it on, once every 5s compared to once every 6.67s, but it better balances with weakness. Weakness is -50% endurance regen. Beofre this change with vigor on you could still get one dodge every 6.67s so it felt like weakness wasnt doing anything at all. Now it will correctly balance at -50%(+50%) putting you at a 10s to dodge.

It is no longer overly effective.