A message from the PvP Team,
A poll regarding profession locking in PvP is up! https://feedback.guildwars2.com
Please share your thoughts and feedback on the poll in this thread!
Does it mean that class swithing during the match will be unavailable in both cases?
Yes. We will disallow swapping characters once the 10 second countdown begins. This prevents things like playing 95% of a match and then swapping for profession achievements.
While I sometimes see multiple professions in one team in games, I cannot think of a time that the match was won or lost because of that. I’m willing to say 99% of my matches are due to the better team winning, more than the composition being important.
“He shall make whole that which was torn asunder.
Restore that which was lost. And all shall be as one.”
Does it mean that class swithing during the match will be unavailable in both cases?
Yes. We will disallow swapping characters once the 10 second countdown begins. This prevents things like playing 95% of a match and then swapping for profession achievements.
This sounds very different from what the feedback link says.
Yes
Yes, I want professions locked upon queuing for Ranked and Unranked arenas.
Attempting to switch professions after a match has been made will not allow re-entrance.
If it’s locked upon queuing then I would vote no unless there is no profession stacking in teams. If it’s locked once the countdown begins then I would vote yes.
Teams that get stuck with 2+ thieves for example should be able to swap before the match begins IMO.
Does it mean that class swithing during the match will be unavailable in both cases?
Yes. We will disallow swapping characters once the 10 second countdown begins. This prevents things like playing 95% of a match and then swapping for profession achievements.
This is completely different from what the pool explanation states, what you’re trying to do is completely unnecessary, a pure waste of time.
You should stop people from changing class after pressing “accept” on the queue tab, stopping people from changing class after the game already started…won’t do any good to anybody, it won’t stop class stacking and was never requested in the first place
It is a bad idea because it leads to more bad feeling in games with things like 3x necro or 3x thief comps which are not fun to fight with or against.
I am assuming, perhaps naively, that if “yes” wins the poll they’ll start using profession-based MMR and better profession-balancing algorithms in the matchmaking.
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So we have to trust the system to make a balanced matchup? So we’re putting more stress on a system that’s already having difficulties because of population?
Swapping allowed us, in most cases, to get more balanced matches in gold t3+. It’s part of the climb even; having more options as a player and being able to swap would increase your win ratio and you’d climb.
I’m afraid you’ll take that choice away and let the system figure it out. Increasing both queue times and creating worse matchups. Because, will the system compromise based on queue time and population? So if they can’t find a good matchup after 5-10 minutes, it’ll just wing it? Or will there be hard limits?
It is a bad idea because it leads to more bad feeling in games with things like 3x necro or 3x thief comps which are not fun to fight with or against.
I am assuming, perhaps naively, that if “yes” wins the poll they’ll start using profession-based MMR and better profession-balancing algorithms in the matchmaking.
Choosing teams on the basis of professions just strains an already strained matchmaking algorithm. Adding another variable to the algorithm will just ruin it.
Again, they are the designers. They should understand this and ignore all the posts saying “we had 2 thieves and lost” forum posts.
The sacrifice of making the matchmaking algorithm worse to include profession balancing is not worth it. It is 1 step forward and 10 steps back
Official winner of solo queue MMR leaderboards – EU
This is a terrible idea but I still voted yes because at least its a change.
It is a bad idea because it leads to more bad feeling in games with things like 3x necro or 3x thief comps which are not fun to fight with or against.
Secondly, you are the designers. It is literally your job to make these decisions. You have the experience not us.
Hopefully it will force their hands to stop Profession stacking, or to actually balance the classes for the game mode
Profession stacking is a red herring. That is what I am saying. Anything they could do to fix profession stacking will have much worse side effects than the small benefit of fixing profession stacking.
I would like to see this chage for a laugh though
Official winner of solo queue MMR leaderboards – EU
Do I get it correcty that with the “YES” option, there is no way for me as a player to adapt to team composition? Say, i see we have DPS with no sustain before the match starts, there is no way for me to swap to support, even if this swap would not cause class stacking?
Then I find it a bad idea, it takes away an important aspect of the game and makes Solo/DuoQ even more a lottery because class is not identical with role.
EDIT: Thumps up though for disabeling class swap during the match. It was weird that this was possible, considering that you can’t even change your traits/weapons once the match started.
EDIT2: I agree with Rickster about the red herring.
You should stop people from changing class after pressing “accept” on the queue
This is what the poll is for.
You said that it would not be possible to change class once the 10s countdown starts, but before that there is a whole min where people can change build/class freely and I’ve thought the poll was used to decide whether or not people should be allowed to change class during that minute.
Do I get it correcty that with the “YES” option, there is no way for me as a player to adapt to team composition? Say, i see we have DPS with no sustain before the match starts, there is no way for me to swap to support, even if this swap would not cause class stacking?
Then I find it a bad idea, it takes away an important aspect of the game and makes Solo/DuoQ even more a lottery because class is not identical with role.
You are correct, but there are trade-offs to both options. This is why we created a poll! If we lock characters on queue, we can do things like use profession-specific MMR, have profession leaderboards, etc.
Im a necro main, through good and bad for 4years.
My favorite setup was NA RADIOACTIVE, basically fighting 2x meta with 2x antimeta.
Id like to point out: ANYTHING BUT 2x THIEF WORKS. THATS 8/9 CASES.
Mostly you dont even notice the stack.
You can have 5x BRUISERS/TANK all ok, theyre the bread and butter, the foundation of nodeholding. Its only if a side has too many DPS or HEALER/SUPPORT that its too extreme.
It also shows imbalance issues fast and obvious.
I dont think we need a MM ban of stacking, itll make longer ques and more boring identical games. The tourny ban is good for safety.
I dont think that many % of matches are garbage, its just one here and there and you just mentally ignore it, a neccessary evil.
Tho im a main so things wont even change for my habbits.
“No, I want to be able to switch professions up until the round begins.
Players can adjust team composition during match warmup."
Does this mean that regardless of what wins the poll, class switching during the match will be disabled? Because if that’s the case I hope No wins, people should be able to change up until the match starts, but not after.
You should stop people from changing class after pressing “accept” on the queue
This is what the poll is for.
You said that it would not be possible to change class once the 10s countdown starts, but before that there is a whole min where people can change build/class freely and I’ve thought the poll was used to decide whether or not people should be allowed to change class during that minute.
You are correct. Once the final 10 second countdown starts, there is no reason to swap characters, so we’ll lock that down to prevent exploits. The 90 second warmup is the period during which characters could additionally be locked if the poll succeeds.
Does it mean that class swithing during the match will be unavailable in both cases?
Yes. We will disallow swapping characters once the 10 second countdown begins. This prevents things like playing 95% of a match and then swapping for profession achievements.
Then profession achievements to obtain seasonal rewards needs to go as well. Many people were only able to get the Legendary back piece due to that trick so please remove any future achievements like that going forward please.
Do I get it correcty that with the “YES” option, there is no way for me as a player to adapt to team composition? Say, i see we have DPS with no sustain before the match starts, there is no way for me to swap to support, even if this swap would not cause class stacking?
Then I find it a bad idea, it takes away an important aspect of the game and makes Solo/DuoQ even more a lottery because class is not identical with role.
And that’s why you must vote YES so that class imbalance becomes even more apparent, no doubt you will suffer during season 6..but you guarantee a better season 7 for yourself with more balanced profession. A raw deal I know..but better than nothing; when they see that 80% of matches are dominated by guards/war..maybe we get some proper balance
You should stop people from changing class after pressing “accept” on the queue
This is what the poll is for.
You said that it would not be possible to change class once the 10s countdown starts, but before that there is a whole min where people can change build/class freely and I’ve thought the poll was used to decide whether or not people should be allowed to change class during that minute.
You are correct. Once the final 10 second countdown starts, there is no reason to swap characters, so we’ll lock that down to prevent exploits. The 90 second warmup is the period during which characters could additionally be locked if the poll succeeds.
Then I’m happy of my choice, this should stop also players from using their daily pvp class at a non adequate level
Does it mean that class swithing during the match will be unavailable in both cases?
Yes. We will disallow swapping characters once the 10 second countdown begins. This prevents things like playing 95% of a match and then swapping for profession achievements.
Wow this is major point.
Im 50/50 on the original proscons, but that means YOU CANT SWAP BUILDS MIDGAME OR EVEN PRE-GAME.
Untill we have at least 2 metabuild + 2 fun build ALWAYS AVAIBLE IN SPAWN AREA, this change will throw more % of games than the stacking rpoblems.
Think,
Its funzies trying builds and hardcounter vs only 2x teef. Only double thif is the only stupid inviable by design setup and i think it happens % less often than hardcounters.
Hardcounter = /gg basically
This is a terrible idea but I still voted yes because at least its a change.
It is a bad idea because it leads to more bad feeling in games with things like 3x necro or 3x thief comps which are not fun to fight with or against.
Secondly, you are the designers. It is literally your job to make these decisions. You have the experience not us.
Hopefully it will force their hands to stop Profession stacking, or to actually balance the classes for the game mode
Profession stacking is a red herring. That is what I am saying. Anything they could do to fix profession stacking will have much worse side effects than the small benefit of fixing profession stacking.
I would like to see this chage for a laugh though
Exactly,
I think way more gg games are salvaged by a class or just build swap, than there are games thrown cz double teef. Evrything else “works” anyway.
This means no combo classes, like ele+necro, it will be mathemtically better to all go bruiser self dependable stuff.
And rejoice for the 1,5x classes which have unique role outside of holy trinity.
most definitely a good idea, if anything it should help make the grouping more accurate over time. It is also less frustrating for those players who play only 1 profession and get aggro because they cannot change.
“Trying to please everyone would not only be challenging
but would also result in a product that might not satisfy anyone”- Roman Pichler, Strategize
Do I get it correcty that with the “YES” option, there is no way for me as a player to adapt to team composition? Say, i see we have DPS with no sustain before the match starts, there is no way for me to swap to support, even if this swap would not cause class stacking?
Then I find it a bad idea, it takes away an important aspect of the game and makes Solo/DuoQ even more a lottery because class is not identical with role.
You are correct, but there are trade-offs to both options. This is why we created a poll! If we lock characters on queue, we can do things like use profession-specific MMR, have profession leaderboards, etc.
Aslong you do not prevent class-stacking in matchmaking, the profession leaderboard will be useless.
Alot of matches of mine have 2 thieves in either mine or opponent team or both; which is utterly bad for every non-organized team (SoloQ) unless you’re the best of the best.
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I think its a very good idea to poll this and not just dump it on people. Thank you for that!
Question is, if we have our classes locked will matchmaking force tournament rules on us, I mean 1 class per team only? I would love to try this. yes qtime will most likely increase, but Id rather wait 2-3 minutes more in q than having 10 minutes of a frustrating match with 5 thieves/guards. unranked could still stay the way it is now.
You should stop people from changing class after pressing “accept” on the queue
This is what the poll is for.
You said that it would not be possible to change class once the 10s countdown starts, but before that there is a whole min where people can change build/class freely and I’ve thought the poll was used to decide whether or not people should be allowed to change class during that minute.
You are correct. Once the final 10 second countdown starts, there is no reason to swap characters, so we’ll lock that down to prevent exploits. The 90 second warmup is the period during which characters could additionally be locked if the poll succeeds.
I voted no since i don’t consider class stacking to be a big issue and i like to switch classes based on comps. But may i ask, if profession locking is implemented, can it also be held off until customizeable build templates are available? The problem i see is that if you play as a bunker guard, get set up with a mender ele, palladin engi, mender druid, and minion mancer necro, you are in a severely unbalanced team. If i could quickly change my profession build to accommodate for this, maybe to a burn guard or dps dh, it would somewhat alleviate this problem.
It makes sense to lock professions in games like overwatch where characters have pre determined build sets, but in a game like gw2 where builds are customizable, it isn’t much better to find yourself in a team full of bunkers of different professions thana team full of thfs.
Incidentally, when should we expect the poll on making duo queue for leagues permanent?
I think its a very good idea to poll this and not just dump it on people. Thank you for that!
Question is, if we have our classes locked will matchmaking force tournament rules on us, I mean 1 class per team only? I would love to try this. yes qtime will most likely increase, but Id rather wait 2-3 minutes more in q than having 10 minutes of a frustrating match with 5 thieves/guards. unranked could still stay the way it is now.
It’s hard to say what will happen to queue times if we enforce a hard limit on professions. The compromise is to let the profession limit increase over time.
I think its a very good idea to poll this and not just dump it on people. Thank you for that!
Question is, if we have our classes locked will matchmaking force tournament rules on us, I mean 1 class per team only? I would love to try this. yes qtime will most likely increase, but Id rather wait 2-3 minutes more in q than having 10 minutes of a frustrating match with 5 thieves/guards. unranked could still stay the way it is now.
It’s hard to say what will happen to queue times if we enforce a hard limit on professions. The compromise is to let the profession limit increase over time.
I would 100% agree with this!
Hard limit but increase over time is best solution.
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This has to come hand in hand with banning class stacking or build stacking why can’t we look at amulets/builds instead. So two guardians is fine if one is a trapper and the other vanilla burn guardian for example. Or support Druid and pew pew power ranger.
This has to come hand in hand with banning class stacking or build stacking why can’t we look at amulets/builds instead. So two guardians is fine if one is a trapper and the other vanilla burn guardian for example. Or support Druid and pew pew power ranger.
Are you advocating we lock builds on queue too?
We would need some epic machine-learning matchmaking in order to handle balance changes.
This is a terrible idea but I still voted yes because at least its a change.
It is a bad idea because it leads to more bad feeling in games with things like 3x necro or 3x thief comps which are not fun to fight with or against.
Secondly, you are the designers. It is literally your job to make these decisions. You have the experience not us.
Hopefully it will force their hands to stop Profession stacking, or to actually balance the classes for the game mode
Profession stacking is a red herring. That is what I am saying. Anything they could do to fix profession stacking will have much worse side effects than the small benefit of fixing profession stacking.
I would like to see this chage for a laugh though
It is not a red herring are you telling me there are no such thing as comp losses? Even though it evens out over time I would perfer these kinds of uncompetitive matches not to exist. They could at least try and see how the queues explode if it even does. You know most people just chase what they think is most powerful thats why we see so much stacking to begin with. They could also look at trying to ban duplicate builds/amulets instead of classes. There is plenty of things they could try. I don’t understand the fear of experimentation. They could hot fix stuff in a day if it was that bad if they wanted to. Stop making excuses for them. Lots of people want fairly rigid class rules against duplication in the matchmaking why in the world couldn’t we try it and see what happens?
No class switching after the start of a match,would be better.
Ideally there should be no class stacking either,so the available classes for switching should be determined based on a team’s composition.
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A) I am voting for not being able to switch classes at that ‘’Waiting for Players’’ period that is to ‘’Narrow down your strategy’’? or
B) I am voting for not being able to switch classes once the match has effectively started and players are allowed to cap points?
You said that this polls will allow us to have profession specific ladders but I don’t see why A) would allow this and B) wouldn’t. I can only see it not being able to be done if neither options get accepted. The system already considers the class that you were playing at the end of the match the ‘’class of the match’’ anyway, if we lock what we play once the match effectivelly starts instead of at the let’s call it ‘’waiting for players’’ period that should be able to be done already.
Do I get it correcty that with the “YES” option, there is no way for me as a player to adapt to team composition? Say, i see we have DPS with no sustain before the match starts, there is no way for me to swap to support, even if this swap would not cause class stacking?
Then I find it a bad idea, it takes away an important aspect of the game and makes Solo/DuoQ even more a lottery because class is not identical with role.
You are correct, but there are trade-offs to both options. This is why we created a poll! If we lock characters on queue, we can do things like use profession-specific MMR, have profession leaderboards, etc.
Please do this! I feel trapped into playing a single class because MMR is set on your entire account. Having it profession specific gives me peace of mind that I can try to play a new class in ranked and improve on my own time with balanced matches instead of blowout matches in unranked.
Having a rating specific to the profession would be awesome. It allows you to rate which is your strongest classes and weakest ones.
A) I am voting for not being able to switch classes at that ‘’Waiting for Players’’ period that is to ‘’Narrow down your strategy’’? or
B) I am voting for not being able to switch classes once the match has effectively started and players are allowed to cap points?
You said that this polls will allow us to have profession specific ladders but I don’t see why A) would allow this and wouldn’t. I can only see it not being able to be done if neither options get accepted. The system already considers the class that you were playing at the end of the match the ‘’class of the match’’ anyway, if we lock what we play once the match effectivelly starts instead of at the let’s call it ‘’waiting for players’’ period that should be able to be done already.
If professions aren’t locked when you queue, then people would queue on a low MMR profession, then switch to their main profession before the match starts in order to game matchmaking. This is why we cannot currently use profession MMR.
Definitly lock it and use per class MMR. So it´s locked after you klick Q.
When reading it i first thought Yeaaaaa per class MMR. Next season with team balance after selecting substitutes and lockes classes using MMR will be great …
Locking it in match is good but only 10% …. Sigh
And for adapting to enemy team… This is not bound to a class. I regulary swap utilities and build but not class.
What i don’t get is the purpose of this change. Nobody asked for no class stacking after you’ve zoned into the arena. People have been asking for the queue to lock you into your class in order to avoid class stacking. But doing the latter doesn’t fix the quality of matches since it doesn’t account for the variety of builds that each profession can have. So you get longer queue times and a match where one team has a support ele, d/p thf, condi necro, power dh, palladin engi, and the other team gets fresh air wle, condi evade thf, minion mancer necro, full trapper dh, and condi engi. The difference is now you can’t switch to fix the disaster on the latter.
The counter to that is simple: Too many warriors or DH will mean they get fewer matches and/or get divided across the teams. This may actually reduce some of the overplayed classes. (Without a nuke nerf)
A) I am voting for not being able to switch classes at that ‘’Waiting for Players’’ period that is to ‘’Narrow down your strategy’’? or
B) I am voting for not being able to switch classes once the match has effectively started and players are allowed to cap points?
You said that this polls will allow us to have profession specific ladders but I don’t see why A) would allow this and wouldn’t. I can only see it not being able to be done if neither options get accepted. The system already considers the class that you were playing at the end of the match the ‘’class of the match’’ anyway, if we lock what we play once the match effectivelly starts instead of at the let’s call it ‘’waiting for players’’ period that should be able to be done already.
If professions aren’t locked when you queue, then people would queue on a low MMR profession, then switch to their main profession before the match starts in order to game matchmaking. This is why we cannot currently use profession MMR.
Makes sense, thanks
I feel like profession specific ladder is a big step on the right direction to the game because it doesn’t force you to play the one you’re best at in order to gain rating. Last season i felt forced to play guardian, for example, and that me feel very trapped, specially because unrankeds weren’t enough for me to practice for my ranked matches on different classes.
Either way, if saying YES to this guarantees that we get separate ladders for each profession eventually then to me yes it is, but if it’s just another ’’maybe’’ or ’’it’s possible but we are not sure if we are gonna do it’’ then this is not worth at all. All it will bring me is being forced to play say necromancer against 3 warrior comps.
Thanks for the explaination Evan. And I agree that it is good to do a poll on this, since so many people seem to dislike class stacking.
They could at least try and see how the queues explode if it even does. You know most people just chase what they think is most powerful thats why we see so much stacking to begin with. They could also look at trying to ban duplicate builds/amulets instead of classes. There is plenty of things they could try. I don’t understand the fear of experimentation. They could hot fix stuff in a day if it was that bad if they wanted to. Stop making excuses for them. Lots of people want fairly rigid class rules against duplication in the matchmaking why in the world couldn’t we try it and see what happens?
I voted “No” but not because I play the stacking classes myself (I play neither DH nor warrior). I just don’t see stacked classes as a major issue (even in Silver many players swap when two thieves are on one team). It just seems more important to me to be able to influence team composition to the better as a player. Also, as some already said, with the build-variaty on each class it seems hard to imagine how an algorithm can set up “ideal” team comps.
But I agree that if the majority of players votes for “Yes” that it will be interesting to try and see how it goes.
wouldn’t. I can only see it not being able to be done if neither options get accepted. The system already considers the class that you were playing at the end of the match the ‘’class of the match’’ anyway, if we lock what we play once the match effectivelly starts instead of at the let’s call it ‘’waiting for players’’ period that should be able to be done already.
