Guild Wars 2

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

Cynz.9437:

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

I main mesmer, you won’t get any sympathy from me over reactionary nerfs to your class. As to your question, why should those be brought up in a thread specifically about thief and their skills? Other class’s nerf discussions don’t belong in this thread.

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

I main mesmer, you won’t get any sympathy from me over reactionary nerfs to your class. As to your question, why should those be brought up in a thread specifically about thief and their skills? Other class’s nerf discussions don’t belong in this thread.

- I don’t need your sympathy – this is not what class balance should be based on anyway. My point is, when such QQ threads about thief appear, Anet just nerfs the crap out of the class without doing anything about other classes. But yeah, thanks for confirming my point: people just want to delete thief from pvp because of their personal preferences.

- Why not? You want the class to be nerfed without taking into consideration state of other classes.

While it’s wrong of ANet to keep nerfing core skills and traits because of elite specs every other class has suffered because of this so I see no reason to make exceptions for thief. IP is very oppressive for how little you need to invest in it for DP, when a thief jumps you and gets you to 50% or less IP makes sure that on any class with a heal or even any defensive skill with a cast time of 1/2s or more is essentially dead as they can’t heal or take any defensive measures.

Thief needs reworking from the ground up, same with mesmer, some aspects of ele, pet mechanics in general and classes dependant on them.

apharma.3741:

While it’s wrong of ANet to keep nerfing core skills and traits because of elite specs every other class has suffered because of this so I see no reason to make exceptions for thief. IP is very oppressive for how little you need to invest in it for DP, when a thief jumps you and gets you to 50% or less IP makes sure that on any class with a heal or even any defensive skill with a cast time of 1/2s or more is essentially dead as they can’t heal or take any defensive measures.

Thief needs reworking from the ground up, same with mesmer, some aspects of ele, pet mechanics in general and classes dependant on them.

They already nerfed every single core thief spec in previous patch….. there was never exception on first place. Why are you posting misinformation?

Traps are oppressive, scrapper hammer is oppressive, 6 sec reveal on 20 sec CD is oppressive, aoe spam is oppressive, condi spam is oppressive, passives are oppressive, high update on blocks is oppressive…. what about those?

I can survive thief jumping on me and using IP as a thief/necro w/o relying on blocks, heals etc. Why can’t you? Pro tipp: use LoS if you really need to use long cast.

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

While it’s wrong of ANet to keep nerfing core skills and traits because of elite specs every other class has suffered because of this so I see no reason to make exceptions for thief. IP is very oppressive for how little you need to invest in it for DP, when a thief jumps you and gets you to 50% or less IP makes sure that on any class with a heal or even any defensive skill with a cast time of 1/2s or more is essentially dead as they can’t heal or take any defensive measures.

Thief needs reworking from the ground up, same with mesmer, some aspects of ele, pet mechanics in general and classes dependant on them.

They already nerfed every single core thief spec in previous patch….. there was never exception on first place. Why are you posting misinformation?

Traps are oppressive, scrapper hammer is oppressive, 6 sec reveal on 20 sec CD is oppressive, aoe spam is oppressive, condi spam is oppressive, passives are oppressive, high update on blocks is oppressive…. what about those?

I can survive thief jumping on me and using IP as a thief/necro w/o relying on blocks, heals etc. Why can’t you? Pro tipp: use LoS if you really need to use long cast.

Put the rage away Cynz. They haven’t nerfed a single thief trait since HoT in fact thief is the absolute most buffed core spec since HoT. If you’re referring to the spec patch can you at least have the decency to read and think about what I posted before raging on the forum?

Doesn’t change what I said Cynz, if you’re not near something to Los behind (and why the eff isn’t the thief sticking to you like glue to kill you?!) most of the time you’re done for.

IMO, I don’t really mind Headshot but, I truly believe Impacting Disruption shouldn’t be triggered off auto attacks. Start here with a scalpel then re-evaluate instead of reaching for the hatchet.

Zintrothen.1056:

My suggestions for D/P nerfs are:

- Lower AA damage in PvP only.
- Slash Shadow shot damage significantly
- Increase Headshot initiative by 1.

And now, to help make up for the drop in damage:

- Make extra initiative gain from Trickery baseline. Move initiative spent damage increase to replace it. Lead Attacks does too much for a minor trait.
- Move boon steal with Steal to a GM other than Sleight of Hand.
- Make 20% Steal CD reduction from Sleight of Hand baseline. Keep Trickery based Steal reduction.
- Make some changes to improve Critical Strikes line.
- Add a Stealth Attack damage bonus to Shadow Arts. Why is there no trait that boosts Stealth Attack damage? Critical Strikes has a critical strike increase for those attacks, but that’s a plain damage boost.

With a damage reduction to weapon skills, Thieves will need to get that damage back through traits and sacrificing the Trickery line, which is impossible to sacrifice right now because it’s far too powerful.

Or, instead of boosting damage, they could boost some other utilities or change some weapon skills to be more defensive and allow Thieves to work better in team fights and be able to do a different role. Who knows if that’s at all possible though at this point.

Uh… you should probably research thief a little more before proposing suggestions, JS.

Lowered AA would kill the thief. Too much defense in the game right now, and the stealth attack ICD has made AA the only viable way to deal damage on the profession. Even despite the fact it was optimal to AA beforehand, now the AA is the only thing the profession really has left.

I can’t disagree with SS, but ANet needs to do way more for the thief to compensate; it pretty much carries the entire profession in combat right now because all other weapon sets suck, stealth attacks have an ICD and are nigh impossible to land and disable even AA for the remainder of stealth time), and other skills on the kit cost too much initiative and/or don’t do enough damage to make an impact, while they often lack in defensive utility to let the thief safely eat the reveal. I’ve always vouched for SS nerfs, but only on the basis the rest of the profession gets changed, notably other weapons.

Head Shot doesn’t need to cost more. ID is the problem, it’s a Daredevil-only problem, and it’s dumb it has no ICD on its damage component. ANet keeps pushing for CC and interrupt builds as part of “skilled play” on other professions (which is stupid imho); with a higher cost, you’d see the thief at similar interrupt potential to an interrupt mesmer in terms of raw cooldowns, except with no other weapon skill access and less utility as a consequence. An ICD would cut incentive to spam on low/no-stability professions while still rewarding good use of interruption timing.

Even your “making up for loss of damage” isn’t correct lol.
- Preparedness is already a minor, so making it baseline and moving LA to the space it occupies because it’s “too good for a minor” moves it from a minor to a minor lol.

- Nerfing BT won’t accomplish much and buffs to SoH are needed if the steal cooldown reduction was made baseline or as part of core Trickery since the interrupt in most cases causes passive CC reflection into melee, usually getting the thief killed. There’d be zero reason to run SoH, and you offer no replacement trait for BT. In which case, if you move LA there, you end up with literally the same build except no daze on SoH lol.

- CS only sucks because it lacks utility because every trait line in the game now features a ton of arbitrary defense and utility with offensive bonuses. Sadly, as soon as you add pressure utility to it, it just becomes DA 2.0, if not superior. CS needs changes but it needs a lot of other professions to change first before it becomes usable without becoming OP.

- Nobody will take SA for stealth attack damage because nobody really uses stealth attacks anymore aside from P/D builds because they never hit due to the ICD on stealth attacks, and if the gain was made substantial, you’d invalidate CS as well because all it offers is damage, particularly targeted towards out-of-stealth critting/damage (Flanking Strikes, HK, etc.). CS + SA used to be a very viable combo but continued nerfs to power thief, the nerf to crit damage scaling via CS by a massive margin with the introduction of Ferocity, and continued power-damage nerfs + absurd defenses in HoT has made both lines kind of terrible compared to everything else on the numerical and conceptual levels. It’s not that these lines need buffs; they’re still very strong (CS needing only a few minor QoL tweaks to help the core thief), but the simple fact everything else is too OP comparatively (including Daredevil) needs nerfs to make them usable.

Big part of PI’s problem is the easy spammability of it on literally anything. Give it a 5 sec cd and remove the ability to interrupt autos with it and poof, it’s much less of a problem.

-PI/Whatever on interrupt does not proc on auto attacks.
-2 seconds ICD.

There we are done

apharma.3741:

Cynz.9437:

apharma.3741:

While it’s wrong of ANet to keep nerfing core skills and traits because of elite specs every other class has suffered because of this so I see no reason to make exceptions for thief. IP is very oppressive for how little you need to invest in it for DP, when a thief jumps you and gets you to 50% or less IP makes sure that on any class with a heal or even any defensive skill with a cast time of 1/2s or more is essentially dead as they can’t heal or take any defensive measures.

Thief needs reworking from the ground up, same with mesmer, some aspects of ele, pet mechanics in general and classes dependant on them.

They already nerfed every single core thief spec in previous patch….. there was never exception on first place. Why are you posting misinformation?

Traps are oppressive, scrapper hammer is oppressive, 6 sec reveal on 20 sec CD is oppressive, aoe spam is oppressive, condi spam is oppressive, passives are oppressive, high update on blocks is oppressive…. what about those?

I can survive thief jumping on me and using IP as a thief/necro w/o relying on blocks, heals etc. Why can’t you? Pro tipp: use LoS if you really need to use long cast.

Put the rage away Cynz. They haven’t nerfed a single thief trait since HoT in fact thief is the absolute most buffed core spec since HoT. If you’re referring to the spec patch can you at least have the decency to read and think about what I posted before raging on the forum?

Doesn’t change what I said Cynz, if you’re not near something to Los behind (and why the eff isn’t the thief sticking to you like glue to kill you?!) most of the time you’re done for.

They nerfed all stealth attacks which was a hefty nerf to all core builds… Of course they didn’t nerf thief traits because thief was total garbage at HoT launch.

Also, they only class that would be “done for” is necros maybe. Rest have ways to deal with thief…. Every point has some kind of LoS… if you can’t abuse it, not thieves fault. Surely, thief has means to stick to target, but nothing stops you from abusing JP or running around pillar – both works well since thief can’t port to target on uneven terrain.

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Crinn.7864:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Rickster.8752:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Or just dodge it, block it, reflect it, destroy it, apply Stability, use an Invuln. And so on there’s counter play to it just saying.

Let the salt flow!!!

That is my point. You should be able to dodge it. Hence why a 0.75s cast time is fair to all concerned.

You can dodge it. That is my point… the projectile still has travel time and does have a precast ans animation to tip you off.

The precast animation is identical to pistol#5’s animation. The projectile travel is only relevant if it’s used from maximum range otherwise it’s beyond what you can realistically expect a human to be able to react to.

Also latency. Some of us live in states that don’t have fiber infrastructure.

There is an animation, it isn’t exactly instanios travel you can see it and still dodge it.

If headshot if fired from sub maximum range it is well beyond what can be reasonably expected of a human to react to. Human reaction in a game is around 0.1 to 0.2 seconds plus latency. Headshot does not take a quarter second to apply.

Also why should balanced be done around people with crap internet, that is the worst argument to use.

Seriously? I have the best internet option in my state but I still have 90-100ms of latency because again my state along with most states that don’t have major metropolitan centers doesn’t have fiber infrastructure.

I’m not asking for the game to balanced around crap internet. I’m asking for the design to account for the fact that many players don’t live next door to a internet hub.

A thief needs to be able to dodge incoming attacks and has little margin for error when so doing. This means latency can have a greater effevt on them then someone who can throw up a 3 second block or invuln.

Using your logic all attacks should be designed with this in mind meaning all should have an added cast time.

One should not design around the internet speed. That thief can also be on a poor connection.

The thief taking PI is very susceptible to conditions.

Having confusion stacks on onself also triggers damage upon using ANY skill. I fail to see why there this double standard toward PI.

Land an interrupt. PI will trigger if a skill interrupted.
Land a confusion stack and no matter the skill used damage taken.

Both are spammable and both countered by trying to avoid the initial attack.

Cynz.9437:

OriOri.8724:

Cynz.9437:

Moises.2196:

witcher.3197:

It definitely should be nerfed, but let’s not mess up a core weapon set if the problem comes from the elite spec. If PI is OP then nerf PI, not headsot. Maybe give the effect a 5-7s cd? Or -50% damage, rev staff style – CC shouldn’t be the primary source of damage for anything.

Best thing for this trait is a cd since it doesn’t crit. I still think shadow shot should lose the blind and d/p should rely on backstab (remove the 1s cd) for its damage. This would be a change to the core weapon, but it’s not an elite spec issue for me and just a fix on something that should have been done way before HoT even released.

So core build should be nerfed because of your personal preferences? What an amazing argument. My personal preference is that revs get deleted from the game because i said so – sounds ridiculous, doesn’kitten

I still see not a single good argument WHY thief should be nerfed given current state of classes. Other classes are so stupidly overtuned (at least elite specs) and you demand that core build and DD gets nerfed massively because it prevents you from mindless spam that plagued game since HoT launch?

Impacting Disruption is a DD trait, and it needs an ICD. So no, this would not be a nerf to core thief. Shadowshot is a different issue, but don’t let someone else derail this thread, since it’s about pulmonary impact and ID mainly.

And you want an argument as to why thief should be nerfed? Because every class needs some nerfs atm. Every single one has stuff that should be toned down.

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.

Well, they did actually nerf the venomshare traits/builds if you wanna get really technical as to nerfing traits, apharma. Power hasn’t seen any, although the ICD to stealth attacks has major implications for how players need to play the profession.

ID/Headshot spam is stupid, though.

Bigger picture is that it’s all Rock-Paper-Scissors right now, which is bad. Blocks/Stability > Headshot/ID spam > channel/cast-oriented builds with limited stab/blocks (a la necro) > boons/blocks. People screaming for balance in this way unfortunately I think are the cause, and it’s led to a very… boring game state where people pretty much just spam what’s most effective rather than playing smart.

My necro matchup between dodges is usually something like Headshot, Headshot, AA a bit, Headshot, AA, Headshot, stomp. Everything else, Shadow Shot with the occasional Headshot for a major interrupt. Half of the time it doesn’t even feel like I have other skills outside of map traversal.

A cooldown on the PI would simply mean Stability neutrailzes much of the trait. As is now you often have to burn off one or two head shots to peel off stability. There not a lot of interrupts in the thief tool set . This makes the true cost of a headshot higher than it appears.

If there a cooldown on the PI all that happens is classes with high access to stability become immune to it. If the enemy can reapply stability faster then it can be peeled off then damage on interrupt becomes next to impossible.

Needless to say this means classes with low stab access (including the thief) are more susceptible to head shots. In game terms this means headshot spam largely a myth. It just not worth using against certain classes and very worth it against others.

babazhook.6805:

A cooldown on the PI would simply mean Stability neutrailzes much of the trait. As is now you often have to burn off one or two head shots to peel off stability. There not a lot of interrupts in the thief tool set . This makes the true cost of a headshot higher than it appears.

If there a cooldown on the PI all that happens is classes with high access to stability become immune to it. If the enemy can reapply stability faster then it can be peeled off then damage on interrupt becomes next to impossible.

Needless to say this means classes with low stab access (including the thief) are more susceptible to head shots. In hame terms this means headshot spam largely a myth. It just not worth using against certain classes.

Not at all. You won’t get interrupt credit until those stability stacks are stripped, anyways. The trait works on interrupt, not on CC. So if you need multiple HS’s to peel stacks of stab as you do now to get an interrupt… nothing changes.

Basically, all it does is remove some of the over-excessive punishment to classes with no stab.

Which is why I said depending on matchup you pretty much can be pretty safe either picking HS or SS. Never headshot spam guards or scrappers, but against necros, other thieves, and depending on the circumstance, eles, the ability just goes full-on bonkers and quite frankly takes almost next to no mechanical skill to play well.

I’m fine with a skilled interrupt every so often being rewarded with a little extra damage, but in most cases of abuse there’s really no skill in terms of the interrupt. Fire/Air sigils proc on Headshot crits, causing an artifical inflation of damage and forcing heals and casts etc., which allows HS spam to be more effective as time goes on so long as there’s even a remote understanding of conservation of initiative.

Basically, if the thief doesn’t objectively suck, there’s very little incentive not to just use the ability in a favorable matchup. I’m all for the initiative system having no cooldowns and whatnot to adjust to a fight, but there’s a difference between maybe needing to use shortbow 5 twice to escape a DH pull or Heartseeker twice to take down a < 25% hp target and just using a single ability 4/5 times in between pressing 1 for damage. Take it as you will, but it’s bad design, like so much of HoT and post-HoT has entailed.

Moises.2196:

Cynz.9437:

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.

Not really. Elite specs need far more than 1 nerf each, and some classes need complete redesigns instead of just outright nerfs.

apharma.3741:

I did no such claiming, go back and read what I put, I said they had not nerfed thief traits. The reason I said that is because they haven’t (though as deceiver said the changes to venoms can be seen as buffs or nerfs) nerfed a single trait however I am more than aware of the ICD on stealth attacks.

I want to clarify: I did not say the venom changes can be seen as buffs. If we’re talking traits, venoms were objectively nerfed; in the context of venomshare builds, they were also nerfed, too. It was a PvE buff and a ganker buff (dumb) on builds not speccing into it. Otherwise it was a strict trait nerf and build nerf because they removed a substantial amount of the support potential from the traits themselves/the build itself and did not compensate for it.

DeceiverX.8361:

apharma.3741:

I did no such claiming, go back and read what I put, I said they had not nerfed thief traits. The reason I said that is because they haven’t (though as deceiver said the changes to venoms can be seen as buffs or nerfs) nerfed a single trait however I am more than aware of the ICD on stealth attacks.

I want to clarify: I did not say the venom changes can be seen as buffs. If we’re talking traits, venoms were objectively nerfed; in the context of venomshare builds, they were also nerfed, too. It was a PvE buff and a ganker buff (dumb) on builds not speccing into it. Otherwise it was a strict trait nerf and build nerf because they removed a substantial amount of the support potential from the traits themselves/the build itself and did not compensate for it.

Fair enough, venom builds are not something I particularly took notice off so I’ll take your words for it in the trait area. Still I do think it’s a bit much the complaining about the exceedingly few nerfs since HoT considering how many buffs thief has received regardless of whether we personally think it was in the wrong places.

OriOri.8724:

Moises.2196:

Cynz.9437:

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.

Not really. Elite specs need far more than 1 nerf each, and some classes need complete redesigns instead of just outright nerfs.

The 1 nerf thing is just to move the conversation from nerf x class in a vacuum to a conversation that looks at the bigger picture and issues between all classes in order to avoid this flavor of the month effect we have going on and bringing real balance in the game not this rock, paper, scissors balance we have right now. We know that all classes need a nerf after HoT so asking for 1 on each class is a good way to start this conversation. Also, a redesign can be a nerf. An example of a slight redesign would be to not allow dragonhunter’s to attack while their shield of courage is up without dropping it first. This on its own would sound like a bad idea unless all other classes got something brokenly op of theirs tone down at the same time. Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

SolarDragon.7063:

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

or… you can just stow weapon, which is free….

as someone mentioned above, how it is any different to confusion?

SolarDragon.7063:

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

The balance to head shot spam was that it did no damage. Now that it does damage it’s broken. HoT broke the balance of this game by removing counterplay with their overloaded defenses and adding damage to skills that should only be used as utility.

If they want to fix thieves they need to start pumping out small changes every week or so. If they don’t it will take Years for them to achieve the reward vs risk they had pre hot. without that thieves will never be balanced.

Eventally they will hit a point, where we no longer have to rely on low risk abilities, and then they can remove them completly. if they nerf them now thieves would be in a horrible spot. (worst then s1), while we hate things like PI, evade on vault ect we need them sadly.

Cynz.9437:

SolarDragon.7063:

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

or… you can just stow weapon, which is free….

as someone mentioned above, how it is any different to confusion?

Cynz, if IP was nerfed what would the other classes have to give up to justify it in your opinion? give an example plz if you can.

Moises.2196:

Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.

The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.

Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.

I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.

The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.

Edit: If I was on the balance team I would reduce the damage by 20% bringing it to a 2.62 coefficient instead of 3.28 and add an icd of 5s.

What I think is more likely will happen is damage reduced by 40%, headshot costs 5-6 ini and possibly an icd anyway.

Highlie.7641:

If they want to fix thieves they need to start pumping out small changes every week or so. If they don’t it will take Years for them to achieve the reward vs risk they had pre hot. without that thieves will never be balanced.

Eventally they will hit a point, where we no longer have to rely on low risk abilities, and then they can remove them completly. if they nerf them now thieves would be in a horrible spot. (worst then s1), while we hate things like PI, evade on vault ect we need them sadly.

This is so true.

apharma.3741:

Moises.2196:

Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.

The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.

Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.

I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.

The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.

I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.

Moises.2196:

apharma.3741:

Moises.2196:

Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.

The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.

Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.

I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.

The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.

I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.

The thing is mesmer wouldn’t be in a great place with the above suggestion (though it would bring the elite spec in line) as they still have pathetic sustained damage due to balancing around clones and phantasms. It might also delete them from PvE and WvW roaming would be back to core mesmer most likely because stealth is so OP there.

Even nerfs on this level to other classes doesn’t really help as there are deep seated issues within the classes. HoT pets for ranger are way too tanky in 1v1s but die super easy in team fights, ele does not have anything but support builds as they don’t have the tools to be a roamer or a bruiser anymore, thief having bouncing off the walls crazy mobility but no ability to be a team fighter. That’s just to name a few.

apharma.3741:

Moises.2196:

apharma.3741:

Moises.2196:

Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Editted it down to the part that’s relevant not because of any underhandedness.

The thing is I’ve seen a lot of nerf mesmer threads as well, it’s not until you explain that a mesmers shield is the highest cool down block for duration in the entire game that people start to realise maybe it’s not actually imbalanced.

Anyway as I’ve said many times as well a lot of HoT things need toning down, I posted in the mesmer section a long time ago how I would reduce the class to how I thought the elite spec should be.

I can’t find it but I’ll give you the gist of it, no continuum split, alacrity mesmer only mechanic, less quickness and even then chrono would be a trait line that would be a good option in many cases. However it would be utterly attrocious if every other class was left the same way and I would expect some seriously deep nerfs to others as well.

The point is moot though as ANet clearly showed with the first 2 balance patches that they would rather change core aspects than nerf the power creeped HoT specs and the clear imbalances within them.

I agree with this 100%, and yes I feel that if the community had these discussions we would be able to come to an agreement across all classes and player base, but anet keeps going at it the wrong way. I’m hoping that if we have more discussions like this where the community can agree on nerfs and buffs than anet might eventually see what we are really asking for which is a balanced game that is fun.

The thing is mesmer wouldn’t be in a great place with the above suggestion (though it would bring the elite spec in line) as they still have pathetic sustained damage due to balancing around clones and phantasms. It might also delete them from PvE and WvW roaming would be back to core mesmer most likely because stealth is so OP there.

Even nerfs on this level to other classes doesn’t really help as there are deep seated issues within the classes. HoT pets for ranger are way too tanky in 1v1s but die super easy in team fights, ele does not have anything but support builds as they don’t have the tools to be a roamer or a bruiser anymore, thief having bouncing off the walls crazy mobility but no ability to be a team fighter. That’s just to name a few.

Yes, there are a lot of deep seated issues within every class, and most people have actually forgotten about those issues since HoT made all those things seem small in scope. Elite specs need to be toned down to core spec level. The elite specs right now are actually balanced against each other right now, all we need to do is slowly drop all of them to core level without over nerfing any of the classes. Once we get to that pre HoT point we can look at old deep issues with classes, and things like adjusting condition damage which was a complaint before HoT dropped since the condi change was fairly new at the time .

Moises.2196:

OriOri.8724:

Moises.2196:

Cynz.9437:

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.

Not really. Elite specs need far more than 1 nerf each, and some classes need complete redesigns instead of just outright nerfs.

The 1 nerf thing is just to move the conversation from nerf x class in a vacuum to a conversation that looks at the bigger picture and issues between all classes in order to avoid this flavor of the month effect we have going on and bringing real balance in the game not this rock, paper, scissors balance we have right now. We know that all classes need a nerf after HoT so asking for 1 on each class is a good way to start this conversation. Also, a redesign can be a nerf. An example of a slight redesign would be to not allow dragonhunter’s to attack while their shield of courage is up without dropping it first. This on its own would sound like a bad idea unless all other classes got something brokenly op of theirs tone down at the same time. Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Fair enough. We have different ideas about how to approach class balance going forward from here. While I agree that a very good way to go about balancing is to look at all classes in the same picture instead of one at a time, I do think that at this point the first priority for ANet should be consistency and just fixing mechanics and design decisions that are just either broken or OP by design. This includes stuff like the discussion at hand (no ICD on a highly damaging trait that procs on interrupts, of which a thief can spam and is almost guaranteed to land), and I think that fixing such bad designs is best done in a vacuum. Then, classes should indeed be balanced against one another.

Specifically for the redesign though, when I used it I meant a redesign of either the class mechanic or the entire class, not just a single skill being redesigned. Stuff like moving damage off of mesmer phantasms and giving it back to the mesmer itself, in turn making all phantasms utility summons like iAvenger/Disenchanter/Defender.

OriOri.8724:

Moises.2196:

OriOri.8724:

Moises.2196:

Cynz.9437:

Have you read the thread? People ask for headshot, shadowshot and AA nerfs…. yes it is nerf to core, huge one at it.

Sure, other things need to be nerfed as well BUT where are those suggestions? All i see is nerf thief plxtnksbye.

You know why all stealth attacks were (unreasonably) nerfed? Because before that there was massive QQ thread from DH (yes, DHs, not from necro, not from ele, FROM A DH that has no issues dealing with thief on first place) complaining that thief can recast backstab after breaking aegis. What did Anet do? Nerfed all thief weapon sets across the board. Did they nerf DHs to help thieves? NO. This is why this thread not going to do anything but ruin the class.

You actually make a really good point here. If thief or Daredevil is going to receive a nerf, than all other classes would need at least 1 nerf to keep things fair. If you could nerf 1 thing per class what would it be? I think that would be a more helpful conversation to have than just nerf x class plxtnksbye like this one because it would take into consideration the dynamic between all the classes.

Not really. Elite specs need far more than 1 nerf each, and some classes need complete redesigns instead of just outright nerfs.

The 1 nerf thing is just to move the conversation from nerf x class in a vacuum to a conversation that looks at the bigger picture and issues between all classes in order to avoid this flavor of the month effect we have going on and bringing real balance in the game not this rock, paper, scissors balance we have right now. We know that all classes need a nerf after HoT so asking for 1 on each class is a good way to start this conversation. Also, a redesign can be a nerf. An example of a slight redesign would be to not allow dragonhunter’s to attack while their shield of courage is up without dropping it first. This on its own would sound like a bad idea unless all other classes got something brokenly op of theirs tone down at the same time. Most people on the forums say they are ok with nerfs to their class if the other classes get tone down as well, so why not start that discussion and try to figure something out that works to better balance all classes in a way that we can all agree? I’m trying to change the conversation to a more productive one. All you have to do is see Cynz reaction to these nerf suggestions. I promise that if you included toning down all the other classes while asking for a nerf to thief Cynz and others would be more willing to compromise.

Fair enough. We have different ideas about how to approach class balance going forward from here. While I agree that a very good way to go about balancing is to look at all classes in the same picture instead of one at a time, I do think that at this point the first priority for ANet should be consistency and just fixing mechanics and design decisions that are just either broken or OP by design. This includes stuff like the discussion at hand (no ICD on a highly damaging trait that procs on interrupts, of which a thief can spam and is almost guaranteed to land), and I think that fixing such bad designs is best done in a vacuum. Then, classes should indeed be balanced against one another.

Specifically for the redesign though, when I used it I meant a redesign of either the class mechanic or the entire class, not just a single skill being redesigned. Stuff like moving damage off of mesmer phantasms and giving it back to the mesmer itself, in turn making all phantasms utility summons like iAvenger/Disenchanter/Defender.

Sadly the redesign that you are talking about would require a lot of work to do as it is a fundamental problem, and people want to have fun now not later, meaning that anet would have it low in its priority list. What I think they should do is lower the defensive abilities of other classes (elite specs mainly or core changes that were made after HoT dropped like adrenal health on war to cover the fact that is was one of the more balanced class in season 1). The goal that we should be aiming for first is the ability to bring back tank amulets. Having those come back in the game would mean that heavy hitters like Dragonhunter’s are no longer running around doing thief like damage and tanking, allowing people to move away from the bunker meta that was present in season 1 opening up build diversity and interactive counter play. I don’t like the idea of reducing damage as that just drags out fights making tanky builds over perform and kittening off all the pve players as all they care about is dps for the most part. I do agree that Impact Disruption needs an ICD especially if other classes are going to lose their defenses.

What a great idea lets nerf a trait that actually requires decent reaction time and skill to master just because u cant turn automatic AA on your faceroll profession.

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

You guys are lucky that this is spvp. In wvw I can proc 4k pi, 1k air sigil, 800crit head shot and 1k sigil of draining, with just 1 head shotting and interupting anything.

I don’t pvp much but I still think headshot/pi is over rated in regards of op. Is a silly trait? Ofc it is, I remember talk back of how silly the idea was when they released DD traits and skills, that being said it’s still nothing to worry about then what other class’s have.

Moises.2196:

SolarDragon.7063:

Honestly, before I read this thread, I wasn’t aware how big a problem this was. But when every defender is suggesting spamming things like stab and blocks, which the thief can then just not IP, it’s become obvious there is zero sensible counterplay to headshot spam, which is not a good thing to exist in an engaging and interesting pvp environment, which should be the end goal of balance.

The balance to head shot spam was that it did no damage. Now that it does damage it’s broken. HoT broke the balance of this game by removing counterplay with their overloaded defenses and adding damage to skills that should only be used as utility.

Exactly. The balance is that it did no damage. Now that has been broken. Getting PI procs for 3k each really sucks.

Wow, what happened? The last change to thief I saw before I stopped playing was the set of changes with the auto attack buffs. Even after that though thieves, even the D/P Daredevil build, was considered too weak to be in the meta.

This was what… like a year ago. Since then the only changes to thief I’ve seen have been the nerf to stealth attacks. So now thieves are suddenly OP?

I doubt that. Has PvP been getting more players? And we have more people that need initiated?

I also dislike the Headshot spam but I think having a fast interrupt is crucial for PvP, maybe increase the ini requirement to 7 so they can only pop 2 headshots in a short span of time.

Actually another thing the devs can do is instead of increasing the base initiative requirement, they can add a caveat to taking the Pulmonary Impact trait that says; Increase Headshot initiative cost by 2 so that you’re only affecting the one build, not all the builds.

Dirame.8521:

I also dislike the Headshot spam but I think having a fast interrupt is crucial for PvP, maybe increase the ini requirement to 5 so they can only do 2 in a short span of time.

I agree. A better solution is a nerf to PI damage. 25% should do it

Azukas.1426:

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

^ what he said.

Also a side note, since rev is nerfed and you want to nerf thief do you guys realise what impact this will have to the meta? It will end in not being able to kill any bunker classes so we will have season1 all over again. Also another thing that you guys seem to not grasp is that thief is already stuck being in a +1 role since theres no teamfight capabilities and theres no 1v1 capabilities against any decent players whatsoever except rev/thief.

All in all, l2p issue – if you face an enemy thief and you are 1v1ing keep track of the map see if he’s gone and be ready to kite/jumping puzzle. *t’s near impossible to kill a good druid/engi/war in a +1 unless I have a mes with moa or a heavy counter to any of those classes then again your rotating was off if you got into this bad matchup.

Any sort of stab/block/reflect/anti projectile negates headshot as well and there’s plenty of this in the game.

The only nerf I could support would be that PI would be dodgeable and then you get room to play around it, everything else is nonsense

bluri.2653:

Azukas.1426:

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

^ what he said.

Also a side note, since rev is nerfed and you want to nerf thief do you guys realise what impact this will have to the meta? It will end in not being able to kill any bunker classes so we will have season1 all over again. Also another thing that you guys seem to not grasp is that thief is already stuck being in a +1 role since theres no teamfight capabilities and theres no 1v1 capabilities against any decent players whatsoever except rev/thief.

All in all, l2p issue – if you face an enemy thief and you are 1v1ing keep track of the map see if he’s gone and be ready to kite/jumping puzzle. *t’s near impossible to kill a good druid/engi/war in a +1 unless I have a mes with moa or a heavy counter to any of those classes then again your rotating was off if you got into this bad matchup.

Any sort of stab/block/reflect/anti projectile negates headshot as well and there’s plenty of this in the game.

The only nerf I could support would be that PI would be dodgeable and then you get room to play around it, everything else is nonsense

Surprised you say this /s

Seriously though, I think 100 posts proves that it is too strong. Time for anet to take a nerf to it. Do it small if needed then increase it until it is balanced.

My suggestion to PI from weeks ago:

You change the base dmg to like non-existent (like 10 dmg) and make it scale with power (1.0). This means if you have 2.5k power you do 2.5k damage.

Now comes the twist: it would ignore all damage changing effects (like armor/protection/rite of great dwarf/traits and skills with dmg increase and decrease/runes/vulnerability etc.), only buffs that directly increase power would affect it – so might, sigil of bloodlust, passive signet power (food that increases power – if talking about wvw).

So with 2.5k power you do flat 2.5k dmg, with 1k power you do flat 1k dmg. This means you do more dmg against bunkers and less to squishy targets (but still good dmg), and condi wouldnt be affected by it too much (only 1k power).

Although i also support the ideas making it evadeable, not interrupt on AA and add ICD of 3s. (not all of them together ofc but individually tho the ICD could go with other nerfs – havent really seen pro thieves use it 2 times in less than 3s anyways)

But leave headshot alone, its not the main problem.

Rickster.8752:

bluri.2653:

Azukas.1426:

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

^ what he said.

Also a side note, since rev is nerfed and you want to nerf thief do you guys realise what impact this will have to the meta? It will end in not being able to kill any bunker classes so we will have season1 all over again. Also another thing that you guys seem to not grasp is that thief is already stuck being in a +1 role since theres no teamfight capabilities and theres no 1v1 capabilities against any decent players whatsoever except rev/thief.

All in all, l2p issue – if you face an enemy thief and you are 1v1ing keep track of the map see if he’s gone and be ready to kite/jumping puzzle. *t’s near impossible to kill a good druid/engi/war in a +1 unless I have a mes with moa or a heavy counter to any of those classes then again your rotating was off if you got into this bad matchup.

Any sort of stab/block/reflect/anti projectile negates headshot as well and there’s plenty of this in the game.

The only nerf I could support would be that PI would be dodgeable and then you get room to play around it, everything else is nonsense

Surprised you say this /s

Seriously though, I think 100 posts proves that it is too strong. Time for anet to take a nerf to it. Do it small if needed then increase it until it is balanced.

So the amount of posts equals the truth? Good to know, regardless PI don’t need tweaking at high tiers, perhaps against people who have no clue how it works but if we are gonna balance gw2 around that then yeah….. Have you ever played thief yourself and tried to outnumber an engi/druid/war? Try it and see what would happen, if you do it successful against a good player then try to imagine PI nerf ontop of that and then perhaps realise what a joke this whole thread is.

I do sincerely hope anet don’t touch PI because if they do you’ll have no power based roamers available anymore since rev/thief will be a joke compared to the tankyness of bruisers. If you however only touch PI to dodgeable you actually make it skillfull to evade the damage and a way to play around it. Damage nerf = unkillable bunkers same goes with ICD, theres too few casts with long casting time to actually be able to headshot anything to get PI valuable, include /stab/reflects/yada yada and you’ll see that again it needs to procc on AA

this is my 5 cents. unless you play high tier thief you do not know how hard it is to kill good players even with PI right now, imagine a nerf to that, it would be a joke.

And last but not least, if we do nerf PI thief will 100% be unviable in competitive mindset with communication team v team.

If they do however by some dumb chance nerf PI to satisfy the lower tiers then I defo hope they make heartseeker cast time 50% quicker and increase the dmg by a lot. Remove stealth attack cd add damage to backstab to justify the pi nerf and to be able to kill bunkers

bluri.2653:

And last but not least, if we do nerf PI thief will 100% be unviable in competitive mindset with communication team v team.

If you had a competitive mindset you wouldn’t still be playing GW2.

bluri.2653:

Rickster.8752:

bluri.2653:

Azukas.1426:

I’m a mesmer main and I’ve seen this type of thread many times before. So I will post what I’ve always posted in these threads.

You have to look at the grand scheme of things in terms of PI. In those terms nothing about the Thief is OP. The only class that actually has a,decent gripe is necro, but if you should never be left to 1v1 a thief anyways. If you find you are in one vs a thief and die….that is a l2p issue on you and your team. Same with rev.

Now on each of those classes while you are countered you can survive a 1v1 long enough for a +1.

Now the other 6 classes pretty much hard or soft counter thief. This is with the OP PI trait too. So if you are dying 1v1 to a thief on one of these other classes then PI is not the problem. You are. Also if you are unable to hold out in a 1v1 with a thief long enough for a rotation to help you while on a necro or rev, PI is not the problem…you are.

No changes at this time are warranted to PI based on the current state of the entire game.

Thank you and /thread

^ what he said.

Also a side note, since rev is nerfed and you want to nerf thief do you guys realise what impact this will have to the meta? It will end in not being able to kill any bunker classes so we will have season1 all over again. Also another thing that you guys seem to not grasp is that thief is already stuck being in a +1 role since theres no teamfight capabilities and theres no 1v1 capabilities against any decent players whatsoever except rev/thief.

All in all, l2p issue – if you face an enemy thief and you are 1v1ing keep track of the map see if he’s gone and be ready to kite/jumping puzzle. *t’s near impossible to kill a good druid/engi/war in a +1 unless I have a mes with moa or a heavy counter to any of those classes then again your rotating was off if you got into this bad matchup.

Any sort of stab/block/reflect/anti projectile negates headshot as well and there’s plenty of this in the game.

The only nerf I could support would be that PI would be dodgeable and then you get room to play around it, everything else is nonsense

Surprised you say this /s

Seriously though, I think 100 posts proves that it is too strong. Time for anet to take a nerf to it. Do it small if needed then increase it until it is balanced.

So the amount of posts equals the truth? Good to know, regardless PI don’t need tweaking at high tiers, perhaps against people who have no clue how it works but if we are gonna balance gw2 around that then yeah….. Have you ever played thief yourself and tried to outnumber an engi/druid/war? Try it and see what would happen, if you do it successful against a good player then try to imagine PI nerf ontop of that and then perhaps realise what a joke this whole thread is.

I do sincerely hope anet don’t touch PI because if they do you’ll have no power based roamers available anymore since rev/thief will be a joke compared to the tankyness of bruisers. If you however only touch PI to dodgeable you actually make it skillfull to evade the damage and a way to play around it. Damage nerf = unkillable bunkers same goes with ICD, theres too few casts with long casting time to actually be able to headshot anything to get PI valuable, include /stab/reflects/yada yada and you’ll see that again it needs to procc on AA

this is my 5 cents. unless you play high tier thief you do not know how hard it is to kill good players even with PI right now, imagine a nerf to that, it would be a joke.

And last but not least, if we do nerf PI thief will 100% be unviable in competitive mindset with communication team v team.

If they do however by some dumb chance nerf PI to satisfy the lower tiers then I defo hope they make heartseeker cast time 50% quicker and increase the dmg by a lot. Remove stealth attack cd add damage to backstab to justify the pi nerf and to be able to kill bunkers

So many lies here

But we get it. You want to keep your class as the number 1. Stop pretending and just admit it

zinkz.7045:

bluri.2653:

And last but not least, if we do nerf PI thief will 100% be unviable in competitive mindset with communication team v team.

If you had a competitive mindset you wouldn’t still be playing GW2.

This tbh the whole game is a joke at the moment. I realised it a while ago. The amount of passives makes it everything but competitive

That’s odd you say this because a top 40 druid roams with us (not saying the names) sometimes in wvw and claims thief is rediculasly strong because of pi.

What dmg does pi do in pvp now a days? Because in wvw I often hot 3700 on enemy glass builds (thives mesmes and sf eles) and then around 2500 even so low of 1300 dmg on some tanky builds.

I have changed my mind set about this trait from a few months back but that’s only because I fought a lot of thives ad learnt to be patient when we fight but it must be frustrating for necros and possible revs not being able to even get close to use UA

Forum bug zzz .