Guild Wars 2

Nerf theif threads have been going on for what….. nearly 3 years?

I am not surprised they still exist but it is disappointing to see there are still people who believe that if they screamed loud enough and long enough Arenanet will eventually do what they want. That’s why I write this letter to you, to give you a major reality check.

Anet is not going to cater to your complaints anymore.

When they did years ago, thief players eventually dropped the profession altogether. They rerolled to other professions and continued killing the same people. And it can happen again.

How would you feel if, after thief recieved the nerfs to wanted them to get for so long, the guy who killed you on his thief is now using the same profession you use and keeps killing you? I think the proper term here is poetic justice.

At any rate, Arenanet knows this which is why threads like this rarely ever get read or moderated. I don’t know if mods purposefully ignore them or they believe there are some redeeming factors in those highly non-constructive topics. Fact is that threads where one side is going “LALALA YOU ARE A DEFENSIVE ZEALOT AND I DON’T HAVE TO LISTEN TO YOU LALALA!” and the other says “YOU ARE A IGNORANT TERRIBAD AND NEED TO UNINSTALL!” do not promote any kind of discussion and need to be locked pronto. Why do we need a reminder in the first place?

I mean why leave them up? They never get taken seriously from either side. You have players who want to break a class because they cannot kill it to save their life vs players who main it and don’t want their favorite class to become trash. And these kinds of thread get rekittened instantly. People with no experience telling people with alot of experience that they are “blindly defending their class”. Tell me that doesn’t spell flame war. I would describe these kinds of threads using proper terms but the kittenizer would ruin the depth of seriousness that I want to portray.

I guess I could say that all this screaming is childish and destructive. Tantrums exploding from wrecked egos directed at those who don’t deserve it. I am glad Arenanet has a clue, because listening to these tantrums is the worst thing you can do when balancing a game.

But this is why Arenanet is being extremely careful with nerfing and buffing thieves. Arenanet probably figured that if they kept buffing thief, perhaps even listen to them, the insatiable part of the screaming playerbase will simply give up. And if this is true, I say “Keep at it arenanet! You are doing a good job!” (clapping)

The bigger problem will most likely not go away. There are those persistent players who buy multiple accounts just to add to the kitten kissing those kinds of threads promote. Those players who continue to believe anet will give in and do what they want just to shut them up.

What gets me is how nobody else sees how much BS has been packed into the posts they make. Since when did experience cease to become a factor? You can scream until you pop a blood vessel, it does not change the fact that you got outplayed. You got your ego hurt because someone knocked you off your high horse. Now that doesn’t mean that everyone falls into these parameters, but you know…

It’s like those posts where the OP claims they have no problems but they want to break something anyway. Any rational person could tell that is BS. If you don’t have a problem, why are you complaining? Why not own up to your mistakes like a quality human being instead of falsifying experience to prop up your bad argument?

Let’s just simplify the point I am try to put across:

- It’s obvious you’ve never played a thief. Admit it.
- Even if you have played as a thief, you havn’t played enough to know what you are talking about. Admit it.
- You got killed by a thief and are on the forums complaining out of rage. Admit it.
- You want the profession to burn because you can’t not die from them. Admit it.
- You don’t want to roll one because you know there are issues in the back of your mind but you don’t want to put them to the test because you know you’ll have your kitten handed to you constantly the moment you do. Admit it.
- You don’t want to discuss a kitten thing unless its pure agreement. Admit it.
- You are accusing others of blindly defending because you have a weak argument. Admit it.
- You are a bad player and need more practice. Admit it.

BSing your way around everywhere will only get you so far. Owning up to your mistakes and improving yourself has longer lasting benefits than being a scrub and letting others make your game experience better for you.

“But I have all of these excuses I use so I can keep kittening to the developers!” There isn’t an excuse in the world that negates your failure to play better even if it means using the things you hate. But in the end your death is your fault. You have evasion and a bunch of defensive options at your disposal. Your fault if you fail to use them and die because well… heh, that is how this game is designed.

Seriously. Almost 3 years of this crap, people. Get over it.

That’s a lot of words to say “no you” lol.

There are plenty of two word replies this thread can say.

I can agree with you. While I think that Thief is unbalanced right now (from a Main Thief perspective), it’s not near of what I read in the QQ posts.

For reference, the more glaringly issue of Thief right now in PvP is that have to spec in the Trickery trait line, because boon rip and Daze on Steal (+ the CDR on it) is simply outright strong.

This kind of things is what I would like to see discussed and while I understand that Stealth may seem unfair, I don’t support “stealth too stronk plz nerf” threads. Stealth may see nerfs, but there are other -core- issues on Thieves on their own detriment, than to their opponents.

So yeah… everyone join the glorious Thief Master Race! \o/

Hi frands,

Teefveedarksicky here! Best QQ’er universe here to chime in and remind you that anything that kills me is overpowered! Also this game is so bad that I must continuously post on these forums to remind you how bad I think it is. Let me read you something, “Dead gaem, customer always right”

Woo hoo! Bye frands!

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

I dont know about everyone else who wants the class nerfed without so much as giving it a try to see how difficult staying alive is for thief, but I’m pretty sure the conviction with which the above quote was expressed has validity, judging from where it comes from.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

what happens when a thief calls thief op, mind blown

this topic had to come soon. thx for drawing it up.

lighter.2708:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

what happens when a thief calls thief op, mind blown

Mother of God…

Teef Teef Teef was a thief who tried to defend thief long ago along side Cynz the other forum thief warrior, until he tried to multiclass lol, it’s irony, i know…

I main a necro and used to get owned by thieves all the time. And then I learned to play my class, and now that rarely happens. Either they get killed or run, or sometimes they can still kill me. Instead of spending time complaining about getting ganked by thieves, learn to play your class and counter them.

I spectate thieves in PvP, and they do not have it easy. Not OP at all. Any damage at all almost brings them down. They can build tankier, but then have little chance of ever killing anyone.
I mostly learned how to fight them through spectating them in PvP, and that’s where I learned to respect their class too.

Ill just do a simple quote from what Teef Teef Teef was saying long ago.

Elitist.8701:

God Tier: Ele, Warrior
High Tier: Guardian, Engi
Mid Tier: Ranger, Mesmer
Trash Tier: Thief, Necro

-Teef Teef Teef Teef former SD thief

Elitist.8701:

Thief is still unplayable. Revert nerfs please Anet, I don’t like any other class, they all have a low skill cap and are boring pleeeeeease Anet I don’t wanna quit this game I like it!!!!!

-Teef Teef Teef Teef, retired Thief

“I hate when ignorant people call thief an easy class, go play the meta DP spec, maybe it was easy back in december but months of power creep have left it worst class in game.”

until he actually started to multi class (and became open minded! ha!)

ohhh things change, man! it was intense!

As a Thief player I find some aspects of the class super easy. D/P is like playing with training wheels, although S/D does take a good amount of skill. In WvW roaming it’s even easier, I usually never die over the span of ~2 hours.

Just thought I’d add that in. Why is D/P hard anyway? Cause you’re squishy? That’s the same for literally any burst build that isn’t Warrior or Guardian.

Edit: I can post the screenshot of my Thief if you want, if that will stop you from going “you never played a Thief, your opinion is moot”

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that adversely affect thief (good or bad). Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously suggest that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

Oh god yes, you just described what I was trying to say.

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

like i did? it is actually really hard to complain with people who got enormous ego and max 10 hrs on the class and want major changes. stuff like that leads to a huge baised openion that they wanna force on everyone.

MadVisions.4529:

Supreme.3164:

1) 3s reveal on block
2) 1s reveal on missed attack ( dodge/blind etc etc)
3) Chill reduce Initiative regeneration

Hopefully we’ll see more counterplay to stealth in general when HoT release, even though I still think that current reveal utilities have too high CD for the utility

actually i feel that recent posts are too faar from the original posts theme, which mostly is about the section i commented.

actually i can go with the 1) and 2) couse reveal wont make you come out of stealth at all it just makes you unable to stealth 3) is not really necessary couse cill already slows thieves melle pressure by making them unable to chase the target. implementing 3) gonna make the class even more vulnerable wich is really unnecessary.

the only one things that would be worth comlyining (about d/p thief couse people tend forget to secify what they are talking about) is the ability to stealth other teammates for ages with blasting smoke fields or burning refugee CD —> insane roaming && spike potential with lets say a hammer guard || mesmer. the other one is the unique ‘back cap’ ability provided by the shortbow.
I believe these two major things are mentioned before. Could you people pls consider this and keep the topic prodictive?

Poliator.7021:

For reference, the more glaringly issue of Thief right now in PvP is that have to spec in the Trickery trait line, because boon rip and Daze on Steal (+ the CDR on it) is simply outright strong.

I’m not an expert on this however looking at the core specializations recently I saw some traits that look really awesome. While looking at the system I realized something, though. We may see a change in how people trait the Trickery line.

No kittening way you scream at me? No one would ever not pick Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, right?

Well look at the Adept line and you have Flanking Strikes. Flank and get Quickness. So hit from behind and you get a boon that lets you attack faster. Quickness for Thieves is huge because they already depend on speed. To get it that easily is a major boon for any D/x build. Except then you can’t get Thrill of the Crime because you only get one Adept Major trait. Eh, Quickness from flanking… no big deal right. Except when you combine it with Panic Strike and Executioner from Deadly Arts and then you’ve got a beastly attack once that enemy hits 50% health. It certainly gives pause to think about wanting to just get those boons from stealing.

Then look at the Master line and you have Trickster. Trickster, bah! Just 20% reduced recharge on tricks and it removes a condition, compared to Bountiful Theft who would want that? Oh wait… Withdraw is a trick which means a reduced recharge on a healing skill plus an extra condition cleansed. kitten … rip boons or more heals and condi clear? again, tough choice. Add in now you could take Caltrops or Roll for Initiative with reduced CDs + Condi Clear as that third utility instead of Blinding Powder or Infil Sig could make people start to rethink those traits.

Of course there will always be testing to see if these are viable in PvP but with just some preliminary theory crafting I can see where there is a possibility for different builds being seen and just hopefully we might see some viable diversity.

Shadow.1345:

Poliator.7021:

For reference, the more glaringly issue of Thief right now in PvP is that have to spec in the Trickery trait line, because boon rip and Daze on Steal (+ the CDR on it) is simply outright strong.

I’m not an expert on this however looking at the core specializations recently I saw some traits that look really awesome. While looking at the system I realized something, though. We may see a change in how people trait the Trickery line.

No kittening way you scream at me? No one would ever not pick Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, right?

Well look at the Adept line and you have Flanking Strikes. Flank and get Quickness. So hit from behind and you get a boon that lets you attack faster. Quickness for Thieves is huge because they already depend on speed. To get it that easily is a major boon for any D/x build. Except then you can’t get Thrill of the Crime because you only get one Adept Major trait. Eh, Quickness from flanking… no big deal right. Except when you combine it with Panic Strike and Executioner from Deadly Arts and then you’ve got a beastly attack once that enemy hits 50% health. It certainly gives pause to think about wanting to just get those boons from stealing.

Then look at the Master line and you have Trickster. Trickster, bah! Just 20% reduced recharge on tricks and it removes a condition, compared to Bountiful Theft who would want that? Oh wait… Withdraw is a trick which means a reduced recharge on a healing skill plus an extra condition cleansed. kitten … rip boons or more heals and condi clear? again, tough choice. Add in now you could take Caltrops or Roll for Initiative with reduced CDs + Condi Clear as that third utility instead of Blinding Powder or Infil Sig could make people start to rethink those traits.

Of course there will always be testing to see if these are viable in PvP but with just some preliminary theory crafting I can see where there is a possibility for different builds being seen and just hopefully we might see some viable diversity.

Gain quickness. Lose all endurance and reduce endurance regeneration by 50%.
you gain this not only quickness.
also boonful theft is boonful couse it gives vigor. if you replace suff with what you said you gonna end up with a thief without any endurance. but ofc it can be tested and turn out decent who knows!

I think you have to realise that, due to the fact anet devs never post in the wvw forum (see: anet devs posting a full day in reddit threads before the actual wvw forums, wut?), many wvw players come here to fume about the ridiculousness that is thief stealth in wvw. It’s beyond broken. Due to the fact that anet is insistent about balancing classes around, at best, 1/3 of the community (pvp) the pvp forum becomes the only place where balancing discussions can take place.

And these l2p posts, plz, I’m sure some probably do need to learn play but to paint a huge number of people with that ‘l2p’ nonsense only distracts from the actual discussion….

MadVisions.4529:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

like i did? it is actually really hard to complain with people who got enormous ego and max 10 hrs on the class and want major changes. stuff like that leads to a huge baised openion that they wanna force on everyone.

MadVisions.4529:

Supreme.3164:

1) 3s reveal on block
2) 1s reveal on missed attack ( dodge/blind etc etc)
3) Chill reduce Initiative regeneration

Hopefully we’ll see more counterplay to stealth in general when HoT release, even though I still think that current reveal utilities have too high CD for the utility

actually i feel that recent posts are too faar from the original posts theme, which mostly is about the section i commented.

actually i can go with the 1) and 2) couse reveal wont make you come out of stealth at all it just makes you unable to stealth 3) is not really necessary couse cill already slows thieves melle pressure by making them unable to chase the target. implementing 3) gonna make the class even more vulnerable wich is really unnecessary.

the only one things that would be worth comlyining (about d/p thief couse people tend forget to secify what they are talking about) is the ability to stealth other teammates for ages with blasting smoke fields or burning refugee CD —> insane roaming && spike potential with lets say a hammer guard || mesmer. the other one is the unique ‘back cap’ ability provided by the shortbow.
I believe these two major things are mentioned before. Could you people pls consider this and keep the topic prodictive?

Yeah, you contributed to the other thread with a well-reasoned post. And others responded to your points. I wasn’t criticizing you.

MadVisions.4529:

Shadow.1345:

Poliator.7021:

For reference, the more glaringly issue of Thief right now in PvP is that have to spec in the Trickery trait line, because boon rip and Daze on Steal (+ the CDR on it) is simply outright strong.

I’m not an expert on this however looking at the core specializations recently I saw some traits that look really awesome. While looking at the system I realized something, though. We may see a change in how people trait the Trickery line.

No kittening way you scream at me? No one would ever not pick Thrill of the Crime and Bountiful Theft, right?

Well look at the Adept line and you have Flanking Strikes. Flank and get Quickness. So hit from behind and you get a boon that lets you attack faster. Quickness for Thieves is huge because they already depend on speed. To get it that easily is a major boon for any D/x build. Except then you can’t get Thrill of the Crime because you only get one Adept Major trait. Eh, Quickness from flanking… no big deal right. Except when you combine it with Panic Strike and Executioner from Deadly Arts and then you’ve got a beastly attack once that enemy hits 50% health. It certainly gives pause to think about wanting to just get those boons from stealing.

Then look at the Master line and you have Trickster. Trickster, bah! Just 20% reduced recharge on tricks and it removes a condition, compared to Bountiful Theft who would want that? Oh wait… Withdraw is a trick which means a reduced recharge on a healing skill plus an extra condition cleansed. kitten … rip boons or more heals and condi clear? again, tough choice. Add in now you could take Caltrops or Roll for Initiative with reduced CDs + Condi Clear as that third utility instead of Blinding Powder or Infil Sig could make people start to rethink those traits.

Of course there will always be testing to see if these are viable in PvP but with just some preliminary theory crafting I can see where there is a possibility for different builds being seen and just hopefully we might see some viable diversity.

Gain quickness. Lose all endurance and reduce endurance regeneration by 50%.
you gain this not only quickness.
also boonful theft is boonful couse it gives vigor. if you replace suff with what you said you gonna end up with a thief without any endurance. but ofc it can be tested and turn out decent who knows!

They also said they will probably remove the Haste portion which is what removes all of the endurance and cuts endurance regeneration by 50%. If they do that that will leave Flanking Strikes as a possible strong contender to Thrill of the Crime. That’s why I didn’t say anything about the Haste part. If they leave that then no, I wouldn’t take that trait because I don’t want to lose Endurance suddenly because I hit someone from behind.

The Vigor part of Bountiful Theft is very nice and makes it a hard choice between the two. Still with how it is setup it might possibly make people have to make choices. Still, until we see it in action and play test it we won’t really know.

Personally I hope we start seeing more build diversity all across the board for classes. Watching the tourney feed you can pretty much know what build they are running without even having to hear the announcer tell you. Yes, it’s a Warrior, we saw the icon, did you really need to tell us he was running Shoutbow like it was some mystery?

yolo swaggins.2570:

There are plenty of two word replies this thread can say.

Pop…. Corn….

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

Thank you OP for saying what all the thieves were thinking (thief hivemind op, nerf pls).

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

What do you expect after years of toxicity from the community? I am sure everyone else would be as jaded as them if they were in their shoes.

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

What do you expect after years of toxicity from the community? I am sure everyone else would be as jaded as them if they were in their shoes.

Two way road. Thieves may get sick of hearing it, and I believe that, but people complaining get sick of dealing with a play type that they find toxic. I think if you sit down and think about it; we’re all very much alike and being incredibly selfish and both sides say a lot that is actually true, but neither side is willing to work at a constructive conclusion because they butt heads so much.

+1, good post, was about to make one myself about ppl who are trolling in this forum.

yolo swaggins.2570:

I guess I could say that all this screaming is childish and destructive. Tantrums exploding from wrecked egos directed at those who don’t deserve it.

It’s honestly this. People getting stomped by a class generally go rage post about it. Thieves play-style is so much different from the other professions that people don’t know how to counter it, because they’ve never played one. Some things about them are unbalanced, but that goes with any class. My main is a thief, but I picked up a GS/H Warrior and I’m dominating with him. So much easier to learn and play than my thief ever was.

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

What do you expect after years of toxicity from the community? I am sure everyone else would be as jaded as them if they were in their shoes.

Two way road. Thieves may get sick of hearing it, and I believe that, but people complaining get sick of dealing with a play type that they find toxic. I think if you sit down and think about it; we’re all very much alike and being incredibly selfish and both sides say a lot that is actually true, but neither side is willing to work at a constructive conclusion because they butt heads so much.

Of course its a two way road. But it isn’t like all thieves only play thief. Alot of them multiclass because thief in it’s limited roles can get boring from time to time. But because they multiclass, they know what to expect from other professions on both their thief and alts.

Believe it or not though, thieves will discuss ways to solve other player’s problem if only to get them to stop kittening. But simply starting off with serious nerfs and a closed mind from the get go is not the way to do it which is what usually happens. Again, not saying it happens to everyone.

The OP in the post I linked is one of those exceptions. While he was receptive to thief’s points even after just posting nerfs, the commenters were not and the thread got derailed.

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

What do you expect after years of toxicity from the community? I am sure everyone else would be as jaded as them if they were in their shoes.

Two way road. Thieves may get sick of hearing it, and I believe that, but people complaining get sick of dealing with a play type that they find toxic. I think if you sit down and think about it; we’re all very much alike and being incredibly selfish and both sides say a lot that is actually true, but neither side is willing to work at a constructive conclusion because they butt heads so much.

Of course its a two way road. But it isn’t like all thieves only play thief. Alot of them multiclass because thief in it’s limited roles can get boring from time to time. But because they multiclass, they know what to expect from other professions on both their thief and alts.

Believe it or not though, thieves will discuss ways to solve other player’s problem if only to get them to stop kittening. But simply starting off with serious nerfs and a closed mind from the get go is not the way to do it which is what usually happens. Again, not saying it happens to everyone.

The OP in the post I linked is one of those exceptions. While he was receptive to thief’s points even after just posting nerfs, the commenters were not and the thread got derailed.

Exactly, I multiclass because any more than 1 thief per game = pretty much a loss. Try playing a game with all thieves, It’s baaaad.

Murmaider.1805:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

What do you expect after years of toxicity from the community? I am sure everyone else would be as jaded as them if they were in their shoes.

Two way road. Thieves may get sick of hearing it, and I believe that, but people complaining get sick of dealing with a play type that they find toxic. I think if you sit down and think about it; we’re all very much alike and being incredibly selfish and both sides say a lot that is actually true, but neither side is willing to work at a constructive conclusion because they butt heads so much.

Of course its a two way road. But it isn’t like all thieves only play thief. Alot of them multiclass because thief in it’s limited roles can get boring from time to time. But because they multiclass, they know what to expect from other professions on both their thief and alts.

Believe it or not though, thieves will discuss ways to solve other player’s problem if only to get them to stop kittening. But simply starting off with serious nerfs and a closed mind from the get go is not the way to do it which is what usually happens. Again, not saying it happens to everyone.

The OP in the post I linked is one of those exceptions. While he was receptive to thief’s points even after just posting nerfs, the commenters were not and the thread got derailed.

Exactly, I multiclass because any more than 1 thief per game = pretty much a loss. Try playing a game with all thieves, It’s baaaad.

What’s funny (sad) is I had a Guardian team vs Thief team. We lost out of sheer kitteniness. I was too busy 1v2/1v3ing thieves off point that they literally kept flying by us and backcaping :p
Goes to show the rabid can lose to a toroise.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

I dont know about everyone else who wants the class nerfed without so much as giving it a try to see how difficult staying alive is for thief, but I’m pretty sure the conviction with which the above quote was expressed has validity, judging from where it comes from.

Because the Devs are always right? Dhumfire buff then nerf was right? RF buff was right? Turret buff then nurf was right?

Please….

The Dev said they nerfed the instant cast of sword #2 return because it was too powerful to use IS+IR+steal/IS to secure a stomp. So please….know what you’re talking about.

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

There are also a lot of reasonable people making well-informed points about stealth. But rather than engage in a constructive conversation with them, you choose to derail other threads by engaging the crazies in the “you’re bad! no you!” exchange. What results ends up drowning out the intelligent conversation, especially when you write these long-winded diatribes. It’s a waste of time to address the crazies on each side, and you’d accomplish far more by engaging the people who clearly play multiple classes and understand how all the builds work.

As you astutely observed, A.net obviously is not going to listen to the “omg I was helping double-cap home point and died instantly to a thief and don’t even know how it happened, OP!” posts, so there’s no point engaging them. Just let those guys vent (they’re going to do it anyway) and save your breath for engaging in a constructive discussion.

Saiyan.1704:

Murmaider.1805:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ronpierce.2760:

yolo swaggins.2570:

ResJudicator.7916:

OP’s posts are kind of ridiculous. They’re always a long-winded rant attacking anyone who suggests balance changes that impact his playstyle. Instead of writing up a multi-page tantrum, you could actually try responding to the points in a logical manner?

I’d do the same for you here, except you haven’t actually made any points except to disingenuously claim (per usual) that everyone who disagrees with you is a scrub.

That would be nice if they actually responded to logic. Same thing if they really were suggesting balance changes. Unfortunately, the people I am addressing do neither and they will remain bad players so long as they want arenanet to give them free kills. While discussion about the contents of my letter is fine that little fact is not up for debate just like all the thief-breaking nerfs those players want.

I offered ideas for a shadow arts remake and everyone ignored it and went back to calling each other bad, so… :/

What do you expect after years of toxicity from the community? I am sure everyone else would be as jaded as them if they were in their shoes.

Two way road. Thieves may get sick of hearing it, and I believe that, but people complaining get sick of dealing with a play type that they find toxic. I think if you sit down and think about it; we’re all very much alike and being incredibly selfish and both sides say a lot that is actually true, but neither side is willing to work at a constructive conclusion because they butt heads so much.

Of course its a two way road. But it isn’t like all thieves only play thief. Alot of them multiclass because thief in it’s limited roles can get boring from time to time. But because they multiclass, they know what to expect from other professions on both their thief and alts.

Believe it or not though, thieves will discuss ways to solve other player’s problem if only to get them to stop kittening. But simply starting off with serious nerfs and a closed mind from the get go is not the way to do it which is what usually happens. Again, not saying it happens to everyone.

The OP in the post I linked is one of those exceptions. While he was receptive to thief’s points even after just posting nerfs, the commenters were not and the thread got derailed.

Exactly, I multiclass because any more than 1 thief per game = pretty much a loss. Try playing a game with all thieves, It’s baaaad.

What’s funny (sad) is I had a Guardian team vs Thief team. We lost out of sheer kitteniness. I was too busy 1v2/1v3ing thieves off point that they literally kept flying by us and backcaping :p
Goes to show the rabid can lose to a toroise.

Hahah, that’s great!

The biggest problem is, among zerk classes thief is one of the top. Guard zerk hard counters.

Thats not to say other classes cant run other builds that a thief has no answer for (or in the case of bunker will tie up a thief entirely too long), Its that in a pure damage spec, up against other pure damage specs, thief has other ways of protecting itself than passive attributes like armor and vitality.

Up against most other zerk classes thief still has all their defenses of which those other zerk classes do not have.

This doesnt mean there are not viable counters to thief, just most dont want to run them and they want to be a heavy hitter to. Unfortunately for those people, there is a class out there that is guaranteed to punish you if you do run a full damage spec.

And theif’s defenses are still there whether they run full damage spec or not. So they dont bother with anything else.

This doesnt make them OP it just means they have a niche.

Without mobility, stealth or blind we wouldn’t have much! We don’t have abilities that convert condi’s to boons (sure we can cleanse them, if we use the right build), we have no stability and we have no abilities that give us boons at will (minus mug, again if you’re the right build). We’re super squishy and our HP is pretty much that of an ele’s. All we are, banks on staying clear of damage haha

I for one believe that we don’t need stealth since I believe that it promotes bad game play all around.

That said, I want all stealth attack to trigger based on position relative to the target. So if I’m behind the target, stealth or not, I get to backstab.

So yes, I play Thief and I hate stealth.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

Funny coming from them. It is hilarious how clueless they are about issues of some classes almost as if they didn’t play them at all – not to say that they don’t but sometimes it sure does feel that way

Nutshel.7264:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

Funny coming from them. It is hilarious how clueless they are about issues of some classes almost as if they didn’t play them at all – not to say that they don’t but sometimes it sure does feel that way

It’s not funny at all. That’s the main reason they keep nerfing the Thief, they don’t play the profession thus they think it is OP.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nutshel.7264:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

Funny coming from them. It is hilarious how clueless they are about issues of some classes almost as if they didn’t play them at all – not to say that they don’t but sometimes it sure does feel that way

It’s not funny at all. That’s the main reason they keep nerfing the Thief, they don’t play the profession thus they think it is OP.

Some of us are less concerned with strictly “op” and gameplay. Don’t forget how Turret engineers felt. Design can be a real turn off. Feeling lien your enemy can dip whenever doesn’t feel great, especially as a slow profession like Necromancer. And in some cases, yes, Thief design currently is OP, it does push many zerkers out of use.

Nutshel.7264:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

Funny coming from them. It is hilarious how clueless they are about issues of some classes almost as if they didn’t play them at all – not to say that they don’t but sometimes it sure does feel that way

Yeah, in regards to this, if a dev says a Necromancer “you want to get because it has all that health and essentially two health bars…” You really have to be careful with how much confidence you put in every phrase they utter, and cherry picking isn’t wise.

Some player’s aren’t good at voicing the real reason that they dislike Teef. It’s often less that they’re “OP” and more that the classes design seems to encourage toxic behaviors and playstyles.

For example, with the exception of PU, Mesmers have a reasonable amount of stealth. It’s generally long enough to be beneficial, but short enough that they can’t camp in it for ages.

Compare that to teef, a class that can spend such a long time in stealth that you can down them and not know or be able to find them before they heal up. If you get in trouble as a D/P teef it is possible to disengage quickly. Yes, you are squishy, but if you are even somewhat good you have enough tools to avoid death.

Everything the teef does feels excessive. I think the initiative system is interesting but the way it was implemented doesn’t require anywhere near the management that energy did in GW1. Also, in GW1 if you misses a part of your combo you had to start over, that isn’t much of a thing in this game. If you are a teef main and haven’t spent much time multiclassing, find a friend and duel them as another class while they’re a teef. Chances are you won’t find it all that enjoyable. THAT is what annoys people. I can enjoy fighting most classes in the game. But teef? Rarely ever. Generally the fun is one sided, and I don’t think it has to be that way for the rouge character.

Also, there’s the issue that because teef has such easy access to Z-axis teleports and the like that it totally drives other zerkers from the meta, the one exception being MediGuard. I can beat D/P on a zerk war, but who cares when I can’t ignore half the map to escape/backcap. I’ve been trying to play a lot of Shatter Mes, but there are times when I feel useless if the enemy has a teef on their side because one Backstab that triggers Fire + Air and I’m dead. In 1v1’s I’ve been getting better but no one can account for an RKO…I mean backstab outa’ nowhere.

Every time I try to play my teef I just get…bored. It becomes routine easily and rarely do you get any sort of respect for a kill. Even on the “easymode” Warrior I get plenty of “Hey, that was epic” when we have a good fight.

ronpierce.2760:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nutshel.7264:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

Funny coming from them. It is hilarious how clueless they are about issues of some classes almost as if they didn’t play them at all – not to say that they don’t but sometimes it sure does feel that way

It’s not funny at all. That’s the main reason they keep nerfing the Thief, they don’t play the profession thus they think it is OP.

Some of us are less concerned with strictly “op” and gameplay. Don’t forget how Turret engineers felt. Design can be a real turn off. Feeling lien your enemy can dip whenever doesn’t feel great, especially as a slow profession like Necromancer. And in some cases, yes, Thief design currently is OP, it does push many zerkers out of use.

Are you sure that the problem is the Thief and not the zerker items?

Would you still feel that way if zerker does not exist?

Yolo, you are wasting your time honestly. You do know who are real offenders (trolls namely) and you do know they have 0 interest in actual discussion but just to cause flame wars. Not trying to offend mods but i am actually suprised how laid back they were about certain trolls on forums lately then again i have no idea what mods do/think anyway nor are we supposed to discuss their activities.

1) feedback is necessary and all welcome
2) trolling isn’t
3) same goes for flaming, it is not argument

sadly, lately i saw more of 2) and 3) than 1).

Also @ people who keep attacking me for playing and defending thief. Here is my view:

- i prefer to defend class that i am really experienced with than sprout random nonsense about things i have no idea about

- once again, attacking me personally doesn’t make you automatically right: game mechanics and facts don’t change just because the person you are arguing with is playing certan class… do you see me spamming “omg this guy mains ele so he is biased and his argument is invalid and not worth anything”?

- i never claimed that my opinion is absolute right. Hell, my opinion is very biased (which applies to anyone actually). You may argue with it, you may disagree but straight flaming is pointless and hardly helpful, really.

- i also don’t always only defend thieves. Actually there were quite few arguments between me and fellow thieves about certain aspect of the class where i was the opinion something was too strong and needed adjustment

- lastly, yes i am very defensive about my main class. Why? Because i am sick and tired of trying to “adapt” to nerfs after nerfs implemented in every single patch for nearly 2 years straight. I am sick and tired being forced to play like some top MLG pro player to be somehow effective and helpful for my team as thief while watching other players making mistake after mistake, playing absolutely terrible and still being effective because they are getting carried by their class.
I am sick and tired to go play those classes (because we have 4 thieves on team), play piano and win games (which i didn’t deserve for such gameplay).
You want nerfs to thieves? Sure, but other classes should have same reward/risk and skill floor/skill cap correlation.

yolo swaggins.2570:

the guy who killed you on his thief is now using the same profession you use and keeps killing you? I think the proper term here is poetic justice.

The average thief player doing well on a real class? lol no I think not. They would mostly roll pewpew ranger and that’s fine because it has counters.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

It’s not funny at all. That’s the main reason they keep nerfing the Thief, they don’t play the profession thus they think it is OP.

They keep nerfing thief, because they have a habit of not addressing the real issues in the game, so instead paper over the cracks with easy “fixes” that normally don’t work, the easy “fix” for thief is to nerf it, and as usual that did not work, so they kept nerfing it, and it still has not worked.

Thief is still imbalanced, which is why it has had a slot in nearly every team for the entirety of the game, and still does, despite the nerfs, thief can not be balanced by nerfs, its core design is too strong, giving a class best mobility, best engage, best disengage, high burst that is less telegraphed than anything except silly fresh air burst, a lot of low cast time skills, spammable skills, huge access to maybe the most powerful mechanic in the game (stealth), etc is just a broken design that they will never be able to balance by nerfs, it will either be OP so a must have on a team or nerfed into the ground to the point of uselessness.

Some of the core design of thief is mindblowingly bad, for instance skilled play like interrupts should be rewarded, yet we have a class that interrupts are borderline useless against, it is pathetic.

So when people say thief should not be nerfed anymore, I agree, it should have certain mechanics / core aspects reworked, when there are 8 classes (soon to be 9) and 5 slots in a team, and one class has pretty much had a guaranteed slot for 3 years regardless of the meta, objectively that is very imbalanced.

Sir Vincent III.1286:

ronpierce.2760:

Sir Vincent III.1286:

Nutshel.7264:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

The devs in charge of core balance said themselves on Ready Up that “if you believe thief is OP, you do not play one.”

Funny coming from them. It is hilarious how clueless they are about issues of some classes almost as if they didn’t play them at all – not to say that they don’t but sometimes it sure does feel that way

It’s not funny at all. That’s the main reason they keep nerfing the Thief, they don’t play the profession thus they think it is OP.

Some of us are less concerned with strictly “op” and gameplay. Don’t forget how Turret engineers felt. Design can be a real turn off. Feeling lien your enemy can dip whenever doesn’t feel great, especially as a slow profession like Necromancer. And in some cases, yes, Thief design currently is OP, it does push many zerkers out of use.

Are you sure that the problem is the Thief and not the zerker items?

Would you still feel that way if zerker does not exist?

Really hard to tell. But in a game where objectives are HIGHLY important, mobility to the point of getting from place to place in a third of the time really causes a design block for certain classes that can’t really be overcome (Necro/Mesmer) which hurts their usefulness as a roaming role. Maybe not full mobility balance, but that gap needs closed in many ways.

Secondly, I feel shadow arts of way too toxic by design. I offered a (very rough) alternative to some of the more problematic traits in Shadow arts that I feel would benefit both sides of the debate but it was completely ignored. Thief need better staying power and/or alternative role options and players just want thieves to stop camping stealth and resetting fights until they get the jump they need (which goes beyond just conquest as we move into SH and even wvw roaming).

Some suggestions were:
Change Shadow Rejuvination to “Gain shadow Rejuvination when you land a successful stealth attack which heals and gains initiative every 2 seconds over 6 seconds. (Slightly reduced base healing, increased scaling from HP).”
- This reduces the need for stealth camping and even gives thieves a unique way to combat “tank” using stealth as an active form of defense.

Change Shadow Resilience (50% reduced damage in stealth trait) to "Shadow Cloak: Gain protection for 3(4?) seconds upon leaving stealth. This effect had a 5 second cooldown.

And Shadow’s Embrace to: Successful stealth attacks transfer two conditions to your enemy.

Obviously, it’s a very rough list of ideas, but the idea is to discourage camping and reward effective use of stealth while giving thieves a bit of staying power. I feel this is more proactive design would be much better received.

Ow this is going to be hilarious when Stronghold comes around. Atleast in conquest mode the capture points force a Thief out of stealth and within a fairly small area, those limitations do not apply to playing Stronghold.

Have fun with that.

… so now the forums are flooded with QQ threads, QQing about QQ threads?

In all seriousness, the issue isn’t black & white. Of course, many (if not most) of the complaints are unjustified. But on the other hand, not every complaint is unjustified either.