Guild Wars 2

Ananeos.4587:

As the title says. There is absolutley no reason why this 50% hp restriction exisits. For those who are in the dark:

Clone PvE: 4,171
Clone PvP/WvW: 2,433
Phantasm PvE: 5,821
Phantasm PvP/WvW: 3,396
Phantasmal Defender PvE: 12,476
Phantasmal Defender PvP/WvW: 7,278

THIS is the reason why your phantasms instantly die to everything in PvP, because of literally no valid reason.

Would be nice if they required more than one random aoe cleave to kill, so yeah would be good to standardise the hp values.

Not opposed to that change at all.

… 2433 HP?

that’s it?

oh yeah for sure that needs a buff. Didn’t even realize this.

also buff mesmer dps. It’s utter garbage.

http://imgur.com/a/eEJHh

guys you forget one thing. anet wants mesmer to shatter not to play phantasm builds . in order to shatter your illusions hp must be low so you have to shatter fast before they get killed

consider hp equal to pve than your illusion wont be kills with 2-3 hits and will need to be focused to get killed which mean buff to mesmer dps which anet dont want to do so

There’s a lot more damage in PvE though, so they have higher HP pools.

I wouldn’t mind this, but mesmer projectile reflection would have to be toned down. It’s bad enough that mesmers can hide behind their clones to block ranged attacks that don’t pierce and take reflect traits at the same time.

roamzero.9486:

I wouldn’t mind this, but mesmer projectile reflection would have to be toned down. It’s bad enough that mesmers can hide behind their clones to block ranged attacks that don’t pierce and take reflect traits at the same time.

Because everyone knows that Mesmers run a lot of reflects in PvP, right…?

I support this. It will open more options for mesmer without feeling OP. Yes is will add dps to illusion builds, but they need it in WvW + PvP. And focused to kill them? Clones vanish near me just for passing by …. Yes with this change they won´t insta butterfly … The only reason not to do this would be to invalidate anny illusion build in PvP. This might be intentional to keep build diversity low … Also illusion builds are strong against inexperienced players that can´t clearly target the mesmer but this is a L2P issue ….

3 x illusions/phantasms.
= approximately 7500-11000 HP on your damage.

Mesmer rarely only has the one clone present. These clones can track opponents in a simplistic way. They can deal damage while the player performs other functions. They mitigate damage while the player performs other functions. The clones are never centered directly on the player and are spread. You think that is not enough and they need more health. Interesting.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

3 x illusions/phantasms.
= approximately 7500-11000 HP on your damage.

Mesmer rarely only has the one clone present. These clones can track opponents in a simplistic way. They can deal damage while the player performs other functions. They mitigate damage while the player performs other functions. The clones are never centered directly on the player and are spread. You think that is not enough and they need more health. Interesting.

Coming across a lot of phantasm builds, are we?

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

3 x illusions/phantasms.
= approximately 7500-11000 HP on your damage.

Mesmer rarely only has the one clone present. These clones can track opponents in a simplistic way. They can deal damage while the player performs other functions. They mitigate damage while the player performs other functions. The clones are never centered directly on the player and are spread. You think that is not enough and they need more health. Interesting.

Such damage. Much wow.

keep in mind that mesmer is unviable atm becouse of other professions got broken designs not becouse of low dmg or lack of invulns and mitigations(lol) or low phantasm health.

+1 because it’s too easy to AOE cleave the illusions while kitting to prevent the shatter damage/effect to occurs.

MadVisions.4529:

keep in mind that mesmer is unviable atm becouse of other professions got broken designs not becouse of low dmg or lack of invulns and mitigations(lol) or low phantasm health.

Low phantasm/clone health has always been an issue of Mesmer, this isn’t just a problem in the recent meta. In WvW, we’ve never been an important part of the zerg besides veil and the occasional port. In PvP, we’ve been unable to break into meta until Chronomancer because AoE and cleave turn our “pets” with which our potential DPS is split with [much like how Ranger damage is split between the Ranger and the Pet] into nil.

This isn’t to buff Mesmer into the meta, it is to fix a major flaw in Mesmer’s design which has held us back since the beginning.

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

3 x illusions/phantasms.
= approximately 7500-11000 HP on your damage.

Mesmer rarely only has the one clone present. These clones can track opponents in a simplistic way. They can deal damage while the player performs other functions. They mitigate damage while the player performs other functions. The clones are never centered directly on the player and are spread. You think that is not enough and they need more health. Interesting.

These are assumptions you make under the best possible scenario. In every other scenario, however, clones and phantasms are cleaved and eliminated almost immediately by AoE if they aren’t shattered immediately by the Mesmer. The Chronomancer may have solutions for this, such as creating clones and giving phants an extra shatter before death, but the core Mesmer has no such safety and is often restricted to shatter-focused builds. It also pigeons us into using Deceptive Evasion if we don’t use Chronomancer.

So, yes, it isn’t enough that illusions, supposedly our DPS and shields, are unable to perform their functions because AoE and cleave remove them without trying. It is also not enough that this flaw causes us to be forced into a single trait line to be potentially viable, and has been around since the beginning of the game.

I, too, find it interesting.

[Sorry, I got heated as I wrote this.]

bro, there aren’t any classes that can viably not use elite spec anymore

It’s stupid as hell, but it isn’t unfair from a class vs class perspective that mesmer has to use chronomancer

Valkyriez.6578:

There’s a lot more damage in PvE though, so they have higher HP pools.

Illusions have an additional 95% damage reduction in PvE, giving them an effective hp value of 20x what is listed. The listed values are not even remotely enough in PvE. Before the 95% damage reduction was implemented, all illusions would die every time even a trash mob so much as sneezed in their direction.

reikken.4961:

bro, there aren’t any classes that can viably not use elite spec anymore

It’s stupid as hell, but it isn’t unfair from a class vs class perspective that mesmer has to use chronomancer

It isn’t unfair class-to-class. Does that mean it isn’t ridiculous? Should that mean we shouldn’t try to fix these issues?

msalakka.4653:

CntrlAltDefeat.1465:

3 x illusions/phantasms.
= approximately 7500-11000 HP on your damage.

Mesmer rarely only has the one clone present. These clones can track opponents in a simplistic way. They can deal damage while the player performs other functions. They mitigate damage while the player performs other functions. The clones are never centered directly on the player and are spread. You think that is not enough and they need more health. Interesting.

Coming across a lot of phantasm builds, are we?

Clones. Generic term used for any illusion or phantasm. Welcome to your first online game. I can appreciate the terminology can be difficult at first. Now lets address the actual important part of the post..you know, the damage dealing, damage mitigation and trait bonus per clone (So either illusion or phantasm.) That mesmer’s receive. To clarify, so you understand and don’t get tripped up on semantics again, you want each of these aspects, whether damage dealing, damage mitigation or trait bonus to also have a health pool, and a increased one at that. Interesting.

I don’t think encouraging AI builds in pvp is good idea. Or just any buff to AI for that matter.

PvP is player vs player, not player vs pet. While certainly AI comes with certain disadvantages (it acts according to algorithm, pathing issues) it also has advantages over any player (no need for targeting, no lag, no reliance on reflexes, finger memory, no need to stand on point, no disadvantage with death, bodyblocking for caster, soaking up all enemy aoe for caster etc.)

Let’s also mention the fact that even common shatter mesmer already floods the screen with all kind of variety of pink zoo. I had for example one of those lovely matches vs 2 necros (spawning horrors off enemies and having couple of pets) and 3 mesmers. My eyes were bleeding from just looking at sea of AI on my screen. Please no more of that.

Well then, playing devils advocate how about we remove all damage from phantasms and conditions from clones and make them purely utility – transfer all that damage directly to the Mesmer and buff our personal damage, both power and condition output significantly.

(not saying I want this, only countering the counter arguments for buffing illusion health)

Curunen.8729:

Well then, playing devils advocate how about we remove all damage from phantasms and conditions from clones and make them purely utility – transfer all that damage directly to the Mesmer and buff our personal damage, both power and condition output significantly.

(not saying I want this, only countering the counter arguments for buffing illusion health)

That is what shatter build is basically.

Fay.2357:

Valkyriez.6578:

There’s a lot more damage in PvE though, so they have higher HP pools.

Illusions have an additional 95% damage reduction in PvE, giving them an effective hp value of 20x what is listed. The listed values are not even remotely enough in PvE. Before the 95% damage reduction was implemented, all illusions would die every time even a trash mob so much as sneezed in their direction.

I’ve been a Mesmer for about 3 years and I didn’t know this. Glad you still hang around here even though you don’t play GW2; every time you post I learn something new.

The “soap bubble” quality of clones has been a bane of Mesmer since I began playing. I’m in my fourth year in the game.

The extreme weakness of clones doesn’t encourage shatter, it discourages it. Clones won’t survive aoe or aa spam. This means that the only reliable way to hit a shatter is to get right next to the target.

( One technique that hits most of the time is to shatter on a downed foe to interrupt the rez and damage the rescuer. It’s a real commentary on shatter that it doesn’t always hit, even then. )

This exposes the Mesmer to CC and near instant death against many classes.

If ANET sincerely wanted shatter played, they’d make the trait [Time Catches Up] baseline, increase clone hp and make clones follow the target better. Sad to say, I’m actually jealous of ranger pet ai at times.

Ithilwen.1529:

The “soap bubble” quality of clones has been a bane of Mesmer since I began playing. I’m in my fourth year in the game.

The extreme weakness of clones doesn’t encourage shatter, it discourages it. Clones won’t survive aoe or aa spam. This means that the only reliable way to hit a shatter is to get right next to the target.

( One technique that hits most of the time is to shatter on a downed foe to interrupt the rez and damage the rescuer. It’s a real commentary on shatter that it doesn’t always hit, even then. )

This exposes the Mesmer to CC and near instant death against many classes.

If ANET sincerely wanted shatter played, they’d make the trait [Time Catches Up] baseline, increase clone hp and make clones follow the target better. Sad to say, I’m actually jealous of ranger pet ai at times.

I know mesmers that can execute their shatter combos extremey fast w/o relying on clones to survive. And oh noes, you need to go in melee and take a risk for dmg – welcome to thief life. At least you don’t need to get behind the target to get measy 3k dmg off and you have more HP.

Thieves have extreme close range survivability compared to Mesmer. Evade and blind spam. More hp? well Thieves have the next higher armor class. Did I mention; higher mobility, more CC and more sustained damage?

Mesmer has been traditionally thief food for years, so your comparison makes no sense.

Cynz.9437:

Ithilwen.1529:

The “soap bubble” quality of clones has been a bane of Mesmer since I began playing. I’m in my fourth year in the game.

The extreme weakness of clones doesn’t encourage shatter, it discourages it. Clones won’t survive aoe or aa spam. This means that the only reliable way to hit a shatter is to get right next to the target.

( One technique that hits most of the time is to shatter on a downed foe to interrupt the rez and damage the rescuer. It’s a real commentary on shatter that it doesn’t always hit, even then. )

This exposes the Mesmer to CC and near instant death against many classes.

If ANET sincerely wanted shatter played, they’d make the trait [Time Catches Up] baseline, increase clone hp and make clones follow the target better. Sad to say, I’m actually jealous of ranger pet ai at times.

I know mesmers that can execute their shatter combos extremey fast w/o relying on clones to survive. And oh noes, you need to go in melee and take a risk for dmg – welcome to thief life. At least you don’t need to get behind the target to get measy 3k dmg off and you have more HP.

Ever thought they learnt to do their combo really fast because of this huge flaw and how they can’t rely on any clone surviving the run to a target.

Just to put it in perspective, you know how much you hate AoE as a thief? Now imagine you have seven to five times less health and you need to run straight to your target instead of teleporting? Think you’d get there?

Thought not.

Ithilwen.1529:

Thieves have extreme close range survivability compared to Mesmer. Evade and blind spam. More hp? well Thieves have the next higher armor class. Did I mention; higher mobility, more CC and more sustained damage?

Mesmer has been traditionally thief food for years, so your comparison makes no sense.

Evade don’t really prevent you from taking from aoe spam, evades also prevent you in many cases to do dmg to the enemy. Blind doesn’t prevent aoe from hitting you and it gets removed by 1 AA/spell. The amount of armor thieves have over mesmers is laughable, more HP is actually more effective – prime example: after june patch pre HoT you could easily run zerker amy on mes but not on thief since as thief you would easily get 1 shotted due to low Hp while as mes you would still have extra second to react thanks to extra HP if you got hit by same spell.

Mes has enough mobility/escape tools to go in/out of main fight. I would argue about more CC. Sustained dmg on thief? I am assuming you mean AA. If thief is allowed to AA someone to death, mes could AA that someone to death as well w/o any trouble. Supposed sustained dmg doesn’t exactly help with survival in mid of the aoe spam.

apharma.3741:

Ever thought they learnt to do their combo really fast because of this huge flaw and how they can’t rely on any clone surviving the run to a target.

Just to put it in perspective, you know how much you hate AoE as a thief? Now imagine you have seven to five times less health and you need to run straight to your target instead of teleporting? Think you’d get there?

Thought not.

mes run to target? since when

Cynz.9437:

Curunen.8729:

Well then, playing devils advocate how about we remove all damage from phantasms and conditions from clones and make them purely utility – transfer all that damage directly to the Mesmer and buff our personal damage, both power and condition output significantly.

(not saying I want this, only countering the counter arguments for buffing illusion health)

That is what shatter build is basically.

No, not entirely.

Every dps build currently is a “shatter” build and relies on burst damage (whether condi or power) application. Sustained damage in between bursts is extremely mediocre (ie pathetic) and this is what I was getting at. Shift the sustained damage pressure from phantasms and clones back to the mesmer buffing weapon skills damage and condi application, then let’s see what happens…

But I guarantee there will be even more qq.

Talking about clones, keep up. Clones don’t reach target = terrible (50-75% less) damage, be lucky to even scratch a marauder thief with no clones detonating. You know if the Mesmer isn’t “required” to be next to their target also then you do exactly 0 damage from your burst, how’s that 3k backstab looking now?

I’m not against this.

However I feel there are better ways to buff mesmer, and I’m not exactly thrilled with the idea of prevalent AI…

But with the context of mesmer burst being how it is, then yeah.

Cynz.9437:

Ithilwen.1529:

The “soap bubble” quality of clones has been a bane of Mesmer since I began playing. I’m in my fourth year in the game.

The extreme weakness of clones doesn’t encourage shatter, it discourages it. Clones won’t survive aoe or aa spam. This means that the only reliable way to hit a shatter is to get right next to the target.

( One technique that hits most of the time is to shatter on a downed foe to interrupt the rez and damage the rescuer. It’s a real commentary on shatter that it doesn’t always hit, even then. )

This exposes the Mesmer to CC and near instant death against many classes.

If ANET sincerely wanted shatter played, they’d make the trait [Time Catches Up] baseline, increase clone hp and make clones follow the target better. Sad to say, I’m actually jealous of ranger pet ai at times.

I know mesmers that can execute their shatter combos extremey fast w/o relying on clones to survive. And oh noes, you need to go in melee and take a risk for dmg – welcome to thief life. At least you don’t need to get behind the target to get measy 3k dmg off and you have more HP.

Oh, heaven forbid we want anything other than immediate-shatter play styles!

They learn to do shatter combos extremely fast because that’s the only way they work! If you wait too long, your clones can easily be wiped and you lose 1~3/4 of your damage.

Thief’s got its own problems, let thief be fixed on its own. This is an issue which has held Mesmer back from the beginning, even when people could perform <1.5 second shatter combos.

So, to risk repeating myself, we can all do those uber-fast shatter combos. Do we want to limit ourselves to a single playstyle revolving around shatter bursts? No. The fact that Mesmer, even with those who had mastered that speed shatter combo, never broke meta [until Chronomancer, which just band-aids the issue instead of fixing it] means that there is something more fundemental which holds Mesmer back. That is normal illusion survivability, which we are asking to fix.

This is an issue with the core mechanic of Mesmer, not just a few of our skills, so even if we can do burst shatters, you’re asking us to accept that that is all we can ever be allowed. Ridiculous.

So why is there a divide anyway? I thought Anet was specifically against splitting pve/pvp yet Mesmer the lucky special one got one anyway.

Guys, you dont understand do you? Illusions, minions and pets all had PvP and WvW HP values in PvE as well for a very long time. But sometime in the past, due to overwhelming amounts of PvE issues where pets were useless, pet HP got buffed by 70%.

So, truth be told, PvP and WvW do not reduce HP, but PvE increases them from the proper values due to pets insta dying in the past.

Regardless of being buffed for PvE we say it would be good to also use the buff in WvW and PvP. I play ele and i cleave through illusions and the mesmer. The only thing that seems to hit me is the berserker on his first run.

There’s already a discussion on whether phantasms should even be a thing for mesmer in the mesmer forum.

Opinion is kinda split, some like having pets, some would rather have more control over their dos, but everyone agrees it doesn’t work as a mechanic.