Guild Wars 2

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

• You write “prestigious” I read “exclusive”. As in something meant to keep others out regardless of any actual merits, just to make themselves look better. You know, like some a golf club for rich people taking space and wasting water and air so a bunch of people that got everything handed on a silver platter can go and feel better than the rest of humanity.
• This system is not determining player skill. Only team skill. This means that you can’t recover if you are unlucky and randomly get into a bad team or a team with cheaters that lose on purpose against their friends too many times.
• I’m barely seeing anyone saying their win rates are anywhere near 50%. I’m only seeing people saying it’s all smooth sailing, and people saying they never win.
• No, average players should not be able to get to the top with grind. But they should be able to go higher if they stop being average. This does not happen. No matter how they improve their own gameplay, victory is still determined more by their teammates than their own skill.
• No. There is none. There should be the possibility of getting better and maybe climb some more. But we all have seen there is not a single strand of hope of that ever happening under the current system.

MithranArkanere.8957:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

• You write “prestigious” I read “exclusive”. As in something meant to keep others out regardless of any actual merits, just to make themselves look better. You know, like some a golf club for rich people taking space and wasting water and air so a bunch of people that got everything handed on a silver platter can go and feel better than the rest of humanity.
• This system is not determining player skill. Only team skill. This means that you can’t recover if you are unlucky and randomly get into a bad team or a team with cheaters that lose on purpose against their friends too many times.
• I’m barely seeing anyone saying their win rates are anywhere near 50%. I’m only seeing people saying it’s all smooth sailing, and people saying they never win.
• No, average players should not be able to get to the top with grind. But they should be able to go higher if they stop being average. This does not happen. No matter how they improve their own gameplay, victory is still determined more by their teammates than their own skill.
• No. There is none. There should be the possibility of getting better and maybe climb some more. But we all have seen there is not a single strand of hope of that ever happening under the current system.

So much truth in this post, yet some people will still think that a bad player will always stay bad when they don’t understand that there’s always chance for improvement, that’s my case, I watched a lot of videos about high skilled PvP for each class, I trained a lot with Revenant this season (almost 200 matches), and then because of one loss, I kept losing pips, even though I had most of the case the highest score in my team.

I tried adjusting my class to my team composition and the other one, even switching between Rev-Ele-Guard, and I still can’t get out of that spiral of hate (yes because it draws frustration and hatred between players).

MithranArkanere.8957:

• No, average players should not be able to get to the top with grind. But they should be able to go higher if they stop being average. This does not happen. No matter how they improve their own gameplay, victory is still determined more by their teammates than their own skill.

This right here sum up what truly gets me and why I don’t like my rating to be mostly based on the teams I’m given since it will impact on the future teammate I’ll be given and amount to 80% of the match outcome power.

And here in lies the problem – personal MMR (profession based) does not = team based MMR.

4 thiefs + 1 War (Above average MMR on individual classes/account)
VS
1 Necro, Ele, Engineer, Thief, War (Average MMR)

The Above average MMR team lost – 500v100.
The problem is the above average MMR team couldnt reroll alts – it didnt go well as a team comp. The above average MMR team loses MMR.

dear Evan, what you said is not totally correct because everyone can climb to ruby just by grinding because of the no tier loss of previous divisions. So there will be ppl who deserve more than ruby grouped with people who deserve less than ruby but are there because of grinding. and that’s wrong.
introduce tier loss from the second division and everything will be better

Lopez.7369:

Evan has it exactly right.

A lot of people here seem to assume that players who climbed to legendary just did it by getting lucky with teammates. That is just not the case.

Actually this is completely false. What I’ve read, and commented on myself, is that it wasn’t luck at all that got them better teammate. And that is precisely a good part of the problem since they operate with different conditions than the other soloqers.

That system would make more sense, be fairer too, if it was applied to stable registered teams ONLY. But in soloq, the high MMR players definitely enjoy a significant advantage while lower ones a significant disadvantage.

@lopez.7369

Perhaps, but you’re missing something important. Competition is all well and good but this is not a black and white issue.

People in this thread seem to think that competition is an absolute. Things are competitive or they aren’t. Pure competition can and will alienate a large section of the player base. When that happens, competition will collapse.

The solution is to have some competition and not total competition. People willing to work deserve to be rewarded. They deserve it as much or more than people who find it easy to do well and streak to the top.

Evan Lesh and others have claimed that a grind based system reduces “prestige.” In other words Legendary rank is no good unless it is restricted to a very few.

The truth of it is that I don’t look up to Legendary players. I have no hope of getting there, so they form an elite in my eyes. When I see a player with the top two levels of wings, I think “elitist, pfah.” If I could get there through work it would be different.

I will often stop and whisper a player displaying a GWAMM to congratulate them. I respect that title. It means perhaps years of work, but I can get there. ( and I’m struggling toward it )

The backpack is an honor, it would be just as much an honor reflecting a long hard grind as it is reflecting smurfing,teaming and playing the most OP current builds.

The grind system of season 1 was competitive enough, without being over the top.

Ithilwen.1529:

@lopez.7369

Perhaps, but you’re missing something important. Competition is all well and good but this is not a black and white issue.

People in this thread seem to think that competition is an absolute. Things are competitive or they aren’t. Pure competition can and will alienate a large section of the player base. When that happens, competition will collapse.

The solution is to have some competition and not total competition. People willing to work deserve to be rewarded. They deserve it as much or more than people who find it easy to do well and streak to the top.

Evan Lesh and others have claimed that a grind based system reduces “prestige.” In other words Legendary rank is no good unless it is restricted to a very few.

The truth of it is that I don’t look up to Legendary players. I have no hope of getting there, so they form an elite in my eyes. When I see a player with the top two levels of wings, I think “elitist, pfah.” If I could get there through work it would be different.

I will often stop and whisper a player displaying a GWAMM to congratulate them. I respect that title. It means perhaps years of work, but I can get there. ( and I’m struggling toward it )

The backpack is an honor, it would be just as much an honor reflecting a long hard grind as it is reflecting smurfing,teaming and playing the most OP current builds.

The grind system of season 1 was competitive enough, without being over the top.

You can get the backpiece without touching Legendary Division, 3 Rubis and 1 Emerald are enough.

To be perfectly honest… ruby is atm worse than amber/smaragd regarding quality of players.

And thats purely because players got either carried their by a winstreak, luck and above average starting mmr… or they grinded their way into it.

Thats why matches in ruby are just terrible… this already extends way into diamond too.

So the system is grindable enough.

To improve this, division locks have to be removed, there’s no way around it… only amber and smaragd should be grindable. Sapphire should get smaller tiers without tierlock… and ruby should remove division lock.

This way people can still make their way into ruby (achievement grindable), but they wont stay there if they arent good enough for it.

-> no bottleneck anymore

This should improve overall the distribution of players along the ladder and with that the quality of matches.

/edit
Also… there shouldnt be any comeback pips… you should never be rewarded for loosing… I get the “incentive” thought behind it… but it actually doesnt really help but make ladder more of a grind.
So, instead… Id re-introduce the mechanic of season1, where you didnt loose a pip if it was a close loss to a higher mmr team. This rewards fighting until the end. Which should be enough incentive to get better.

Getting to Ruby is just too easy. I think player should start losing tiers in sapphire for like the last two tiers.

There’s a kittenton of Ruby players now just because getting there is mostly grinding and getting lucky, not through skills.

You only truly get out of amber when you hit Diamond.

Lopez.7369:

I don’t get why people are assuming they should be able to get the legendary backpack even if they don’t have the skill level to get to legendary or, worse, diamond. Again, not everyone gets the trophy in a competitive game mode.

This is a terrible competitive game and you guys know it, if it was that good then the views wouldn’t be below 200 in Twitch, nobody even cares about it in most gaming websites either.

Idc if everybody can grind legendary backpiece… I really just dont care about it… player that get to legendary get their badge and title…

And tbh, that has not really anything to do with whats happening in ruby.

Whats happening in ruby is the direct result of winstreak overshooting players, division lock, and mmr calculation not including played matches.
I can live with that last one… not happy about it, but okay… but the other two HAVE to be solved asap.

Neither players that overshot are happy… nor those that belong to ruby… nor those that belong in diamond or legendary.

Lopez.7369:

I don’t get why people are assuming they should be able to get the legendary backpack even if they don’t have the skill level to get to legendary or, worse, diamond. Again, not everyone gets the trophy in a competitive game mode.

Well, blame ANET on this since they wanted everybody being capable of getting it. So it’s a bit normal that everybody expect to get it.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that.

Except it’s not more prestigious. It’s more random and unreliable.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

When? In a month, just about as the season will be ending?

Lopez.7369:

I don’t get why people are assuming they should be able to get the legendary backpack even if they don’t have the skill level to get to legendary or, worse, diamond. Again, not everyone gets the trophy in a competitive game mode.

Hm then i have to ask:

Legendary players need incentive like gold, special reward track to even play PvP because of que times, because of MM system, which you say rather well separate good ones from bad once.

Then you have PVE players who are there for backpiece, but it’s time gated, there is another legendary back, i don’t know it’s name but Anet haven’t implemented them yet for what ever reason, so they have no choice but to play pvp. And playing pvp is not fun for them. Most of them will be out when they will get it.

Here is question thou pvp population is small which makes any ideas of how to improve it, rejected because of 1 argument “population is too small to implement this, to implement that”. But you think it’s cool to further shrink it and turn away people from it ? because for majority pvp is not fun, rage, toxity, people burning out.

Plus to that because of clown showdown in s1, those wings doesn’t have value of being something prestigious, because who really wanted them hard, smurfed, tanked mmr and have them too.

I m not on anyone’s side and no i m not stuck – this is just a question.

Lopez.7369:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Well, blame ANET on this since they wanted everybody being capable of getting it. So it’s a bit normal that everybody expect to get it.

Where did they say that?

Anyway, it’s apparently still possible by getting ruby three times and emerald once.

The achievement system is clearly set up so that anyone can get it with enough grind. All legendaries are achievable by grind rather than skill.

Funfact, mates… the closer I get to ruby on my alt accounts…. the worse players get… teammates and enemies.

Ive encountered druids that just burst in necro cleave, and instead of dodging out… they stand still and try to heal themselves with astral form 4… I get to see rebound/other shouts wasted 99% of the time and reapers that run in with 25% lifeforce, go into reapershroud, drop out, and die instantly.

THATS rubyhell…. and those players should NOT be in ruby… they should be in emerald/max sapphire early tiers.

Ive been trying to “teach”, now everybody that knows me, knows that Im the most unsuited person for this. I told necros to not run on point immediatly, but to range a bit first to get lifeforce up and only go into reapershroud when there’s something to cleave (low targets, downed targets). Ive seen those necros change…….. nada.

Ive told thieves to not run into each teamfight and instead try to +1, steal beasts, open gates, destroy trebs, use trebs… etc.
Next match, same thief, same spiel… he runs with on mid, dies in cleave on point.

Thats a lot of players in ruby. And those of us, that legitimately belong there… or in diamond… get to enjoy them 24/7.

Ive had better teammates in amber, than I ever get on ruby, no matter mmr of account. The only difference between bad mmr and good mmr is…. with good mmr teammates are at least competent enough to not loose every 1v1.

But no matter what mmr… ruby players just suck at teamfights because they suck at positioning… and ruby players overrotate. They overcommit.
They leave close empty to “help” on mid/far, even though its already +1.
They leave mid empty to help out on close, even though theres incoming on mid and close is covered.

Im sorry to be so harsh about this, but its the reality. And the more matches I play in ruby, the worse it gets… and the more it just shows that you can grind your way there – and further – with enough games played… even though most players just do not belong there.

How can you be 2 divisions from legendary, when you die in every teamfight in 5-15 seconds? How could you belong there if you run repeatedly (!) through dh traps?
Simply because you played 2k+ matches? No, Im sorry, but just no.

So please anet, please… remove division locks starting ruby. It is absolute hell to be stuck in ruby, no matter why.

Removing the locks would make the situation that much worse for a majority of players. The matchmaking is already crushing… removing the locked in pips would have the effect of discouraging probably a majority of the players.

I once told the Sail Commodore of our local club; It’s all well and good that one sailor wins every time. Certainly he is skilled. However, what’s the use of being the top in a class of 1? That sailor went on to win every time that season. The class is no longer sailed at the club, for lack of interest.

Sorry, but at one point you have to face facts… not everybody can make it to legendary. Not everybody should make it to ruby.

Why should players that clearly dont grasp the basics of pvp make it to fourth division of six, simply because they are participating so much?

It is not as if they dont get anything if they dont make it to ruby.
Your example is kinda misplaced because of that. There is rewards for participation. Just not legendary wings in second season and badge and title for everybody.

GW2 rewards you for participation in every game mode, even in raids (since you get shards for wiping over and over). So it is just fair that pvp rewards you for participating too

Malediktus.9250:

GW2 rewards you for participation in every game mode, even in raids (since you get shards for wiping over and over). So it is just fair that pvp rewards you for participating too

Let’s keep the carebear attitude in PvE and not bring it in a competitive mode, alright?

Evan Lesh.3295:

Getting ‘stuck’ in ruby is a very important topic regarding how best league should operate. We changed matchmaking to make the ladder more prestigious and so far it has done that. Divisions are aligning with skill level much better than season 1. The product of this change is that the bulk of players who hover around the middle of the mmr curve should stay in sapphire and ruby. Win rate will level out at 50% because there are plentiful players of similar mmr in the same division.

Should average players be able to climb out of the middle divisions by grinding? This removes prestige and can make matchmaking worse within a division, but always allows a sense of progression.

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing, but rewards and progression stop at some point through the season.

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

Evan, I utterly disagree with your assessment. I know it’s not popular with the younger generations but, there is “Prestige” to be earned by doing work! Yes, by doing work and earning it the hard way. Take these “Pro Players” in EU achieving Legendary in a day. It’s trivial to easy for them. When a less skillful player plays double to triple the amount of games to rank up, they also accumulated more wins than these “Legendary in a Day” folks. They’ve fought longer and harder than these “Pro” players. There should absolutely be Prestige in that! To take the pounding and keep striving and pushing forward, there should be Prestige in that. What you created this season is nothing more than a Snowflakes Paradise.

I don’t know if kids today even had a Gym class. Though in my day, even in the earliest grades of Elementary school, we used to create teams in a balanced state. Where it almost always ended up the best player went to side “A”, second best to side “B”, so on and so forth. What we have in Ranked now is more akin to the top 5 on side “A” and the bottom 5 on side “B”. That is an extremely poor way to make a match.

Lopez.7369:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Well, blame ANET on this since they wanted everybody being capable of getting it. So it’s a bit normal that everybody expect to get it.

Where did they say that?

Anyway, it’s apparently still possible by getting ruby three times and emerald once.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-pvp-league-begins-on-december-1/

“The Ascension is designed to reward investment in PvP by any player and will require more than one season to complete. You don’t need to be the most skilled player to earn it, but highly skilled players will find that they can progress through the Path of the Ascension faster.”

as a solo quer in ruby i should not face a 4man or 5 man premade at all. im like 5 pips away from dimond yes i hate ruby lol. but was wondering how dose this match up happen? is my MMR so good it needs premades to make it fair?

Lopez.7369:

shrek.1046:

The achievement system is clearly set up so that anyone can get it with enough grind. All legendaries are achievable by grind rather than skill.

Or maybe the PvP one is different since it’s in, you know, PvP?

Did you ignore the first sentence? That is about the PvP achievements.

The final set of wings and achievement are a joke since tons of bad pvpers got them during s1. When I see it I do not think they are skilled I think they are flaunting that they got carried xD as many are still in div 1 and 2 with the wings.

And look at the season now, legendary players wait 1 hour for a match where they still get steamrolled so they want more people in legendary but even say that they roll an alt account to go through to legendary again filling the top with Alts and pushing potential legendary players down.

And at the bottom people are getting stuck and quiting because the game decodes at the beginning that one team has a big advantage over the other so less player pool.

Then people in middle can mot advance due to people being carried into the middle divs so they give up or keep losing and causing them yo get worse teams each time.

In s1 the problem was that 1/3 of the pvp community had an issue with the system, now in s2 all 3 from low mid and high divs have complains.

They should not be using a new system during a tournament. If they want to be in with the gaming tournaments they need fair ranked not favoring the people who won their first match or not.

Ruby is unbearable atm.
To the point that I stoped giving a f*(kitten) about the matches.
I just get a few points to count towards the path,and if I see the game is flop,I don’t bother anymore,just wait it out.
You will either be matched with the wining or the losing team.
Close and competitive matches are rare,maybe one in ten.
Diss iz terrible match making.
One loss after the other with team mates that can’t even dodge a AoE circle and stand and die like bots.

I started the season with a MMR,on my Necro,a bit over,50% and now I must be somewhere around 40%,and there is no way to break this.
The more I lose,the worse players I get matched with,the worse my MMR gets,the worse players I get matched with,and so on.

What is wrong with balanced matches and teams?
Since,you know,it’s not like we all 1v1’ed before the start of the league,to really know where we are with regards to each others level,and as our personal MMR the game uses our team’s win/lose ratio,which is directly affected by the match making system,which in turn is rigged to produce one sided matches,and has no provisions to protect the players that are handicapped by it,from MMR tanking.

Season 1 was not perfect,but it was 100 times better than this.
It gave players incentive to keep trying ,even in lost matches,because your team’s overall score and performance was taken into account,and it protected your progression
when you were matched with higher MMR teams,it even awarded you for overcoming more powerful foes.
This current system is a monstrosity,and it will kill PvP.
It has already killed the fun.
Players are grinding pips like zombies,praying for that win streak that will get them to progress,raging,calling their teams names,and all that other kitten that goes with such unbalanced match making in a competitive PvP game mode.

I just lost my win streak cuz other side had team PZ again on alt accounts. Really frustrating and puts me off of PvP seeing all these legendary players trolling lower leagues to stroke their kitten.

fishball.7204:

I just lost my win streak cuz other side had team PZ again on alt accounts. Really frustrating and puts me off of PvP seeing all these legendary players trolling lower leagues to stroke their kitten.

- at least you had a win streak count your blessings!! hard to have any sympathy

Why we dont see our mmr and why anet dont make minimum lvl 30 in pvp to joint arena rank fights so we have players with exp in pvp and we dont play vs players with no exp in pvp.

Read some of the thread. What a whinefest.
It’s undeniable that there are still issues with the system, but overall it’s a big improvement and makes for the best league season we’ve had to date.

Most important changes I’d make:
- instead of the comeback (“pity”) pips, re-introduce the mechanic of not losing a pip for close games, so there’s still incentive to tryhard for everyone, would possibly make the experience of climbing the divisions less frustrating for people who claim they’re constantly getting screwed by the MMR,
- reduce the tiers in Sapphire to a 4 pip size, but make it possible to lose tiers, it would further help spread out the playerbase across the divisions.

Reaching Legend still holds too little value, but at least it’s more telling of a player’s skill level than in S1.
I’ve no sympathy for people claiming there’s a need for more “participation” rewards – those are already plentiful and, with time, anyone who plays enough PvP can get this year’s legendary backpiece.

Regarding the concept of “MMR hell” in Ruby: at this point of the season all of the active and highly skilled PvP players have long reached Legend, so the actual good people left in the lower divisions shouldn’t struggle to get out of them if they can truly carry their team.
You can’t tell me I’m only saying it because I’m out of touch with how it is for lower MMR players, because a couple of days ago I started playing on my low MMR NA account and, without any trouble, so far I’ve reached Ruby t3 playing purely soloQ, without HoT and with an average ping of 180-200. Sure, it can get frustrating at times. Yesterday I held 2-3 people on far for half a game yet it was still a loss, so there are definitely some matches that you just can’t carry. My advice is, if you’re still struggling, wait it out. The longer the season lasts, the less good players remain in the lower divisions, the easier it will be for you to winstreak your way out of Ruby.

Edit: of course introducing pre-season placement matches would also go a long way, but that’s a whole nother topic.

KhaidaG.5098:

Read some of the thread. What a whinefest.
It’s undeniable that there are still issues with the system, but overall it’s a big improvement and makes for the best league season we’ve had to date.

Most important changes I’d make:
- instead of the comeback (“pity”) pips, re-introduce the mechanic of not losing a pip for close games, so there’s still incentive to tryhard for everyone, would possibly make the experience of climbing the divisions less frustrating for people who claim they’re constantly getting screwed by the MMR,
- reduce the tiers in Sapphire to a 4 pip size, but make it possible to lose tiers, it would further help spread out the playerbase across the divisions.

Reaching Legend still holds too little value, but at least it’s more telling of a player’s skill level than in S1.
I’ve no sympathy for people claiming there’s a need for more “participation” rewards – those are already plentiful and, with time, anyone who plays enough PvP can get this year’s legendary backpiece.

Regarding the concept of “MMR hell” in Ruby: at this point of the season all of the active and highly skilled PvP players have long reached Legend, so the actual good people left in the lower divisions shouldn’t struggle to get out of them if they can truly carry their team.
You can’t tell me I’m only saying it because I’m out of touch with how it is for lower MMR players, because a couple of days ago I started playing on my low MMR NA account and, without any trouble, so far I’ve reached Ruby t3 playing purely soloQ, without HoT and with an average ping of 180-200. Sure, it can get frustrating at times. Yesterday I held 2-3 people on far for half a game yet it was still a loss, so there are definitely some matches that you just can’t carry. My advice is, if you’re still struggling, wait it out. The longer the season lasts, the less good players remain in the lower divisions, the easier it will be for you to winstreak your way out of Ruby.

Edit: of course introducing pre-season placement matches would also go a long way, but that’s a whole nother topic.

I agree with a lot of what you said but your last paragraph is largely self-flattering more than factual.

First of all, saying all good players are since a long time all past ruby is a weird thing to say considering the fact you have no idea of ppl available time to pvp this season. No idea when they started, no idea if they could play a lot or not. There are good players who simply didn’t play last season after all. My point is, let’s not say what we can’t.

Second, all the people who now start new accounts to “prove” MMR hell is no problem for them because they are “gud” are actually failing hard to understand that their experiment is bound to fail from the get go unless they tank their MMR first and keep it low/average till ruby.

If you start a new account that enjoy average MMR and you are a strong player what do you think will happen when you face amber level opponents at this stage of the season? Like you yourself said, “The longer the season lasts, the less good players remain in the lower divisions, the easier it will be for you to winstreak”. So, yeah, your MMR will slowly rise from victory to victory and when you hit ruby you won’t have anything remotely close to the conditions the people complaining have to deal with.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

you have no idea of ppl available time to pvp this season. No idea when they started, no idea if they could play a lot or not.

I know. In fact I only reached Diamond last season because I had been inactive for a large portion of it. That’s why I said “all of the active and highly skilled PvP players have long reached Legend”, also I specifically pointed out it should largely be smooth sailing for those who have not had so much time to play just yet.
The other points you bring up are definitely valid, obviously I can’t fully replicate anybody else’s experience. My point is: if I can do just fine in soloq with no HoT and ridiculous ping then, sooner or later, anyone with HoT and normal ping can climb the divisions if they truly don’t belong in the division they’re currently in.

KhaidaG.5098:

My point is: if I can do just fine in soloq with no HoT and ridiculous ping then, sooner or later, anyone with HoT and normal ping can climb the divisions if they truly don’t belong in the division they’re currently in.

And that’s what Sirb disagreed with. It’s just not true due to how MMR+MM work.

Galandil.9641:

It’s just not true due to how MMR+MM work.

Of course it’s true. If we look at it from the opposing point of view then what? Some accounts are eternally doomed to never be able to climb just because they have lost some games in the past? Individual skill has no meaning anymore because this account is forever going to get matched with bad teammates vs unbeatable opponents? If you’re good enough, given enough time you carry your way out of whatever division you’re in. If you’re not good enough you stay there and rightfully so, this is the nature of competitive gaming.

I give up. 15 chars

KhaidaG.5098:

Of course it’s true. If we look at it from the opposing point of view then what? Some accounts are eternally doomed to never be able to climb just because they have lost some games in the past? Individual skill has no meaning anymore because this account is forever going to get matched with bad teammates vs unbeatable opponents? If you’re good enough, given enough time you carry your way out of whatever division you’re in. If you’re not good enough you stay there and rightfully so, this is the nature of competitive gaming.

You’re clearly ignorant about how the MMR (or any Elo/Glicko system) works. Just keep pretending that if you go up, it’s just because you’re a top player, it’s impossible to discuss vs any belief system like yours.

Must be that the reason why I still see utter trash players in diamond: they deserve it. Yeah, must be that.

Of course it’s still possible to reach Diamond/Legend if you’re bad, I talked about some of the issues in my original post.
Algorithms don’t take your personal skill progress into account. Eventually, once you get better and get some wins, your MMR will start rising. Add to it the fact that (as I’ve mentioned numerous time) the people you’ve been losing against move on to higher divisions and get replaced by new ones that are most likely going to be easier for you to beat. It really doesn’t take more than simple logical thinking to grasp this.

KhaidaG.5098:

Of course it’s still possible to reach Diamond/Legend if you’re bad, I talked about some of the issues in my original post.
Algorithms don’t take your personal skill progress into account. Eventually, once you get better and get some wins, your MMR will start rising. Add to it the fact that (as I’ve mentioned numerous time) the people you’ve been losing against move on to higher divisions and get replaced by new ones that are most likely going to be easier for you to beat. It really doesn’t take more than simple logical thinking to grasp this.

Sure it doesn’t that the freaking point XD. It’s like i can explain and waste my time. But then you will have nothing to say and another smart boy will walk in and say about how casual and easy it is and everyone just need to git gud. I kitten know how easy it is. But the problem has nothing to do with it.

So this thread is basically putting the spotlight on all the reasons why I would like trying, but never actually will try PvP in this game. It’s a failure on paper already.

Too bad because the game is almost perfect, except for this. Like a beatiful chandelier with a bunch of broken lights. It’s just not enjoyable . . .

Thanks for saving me frustration though. I’d have no problem with sinking to the “noob pool” where I would belong to, but there is no such thing because of sporadically added “good” players that do not belong into my rubbish league…

Galandil.9641:

Malediktus.9250:

GW2 rewards you for participation in every game mode, even in raids (since you get shards for wiping over and over). So it is just fair that pvp rewards you for participating too

Let’s keep the carebear attitude in PvE and not bring it in a competitive mode, alright?

Why? There are only like 100 people per megaserver who care about competive pvp, the rest wants some fun and rewards

Agemnon.4608:

Why not set people as a provisional rating and have the cutoff for ranked be at least rank 50? That way ranked players will enter with decent experience while the provisional would be volatile for 100 or so matches like a provisional rating in chess.

I have, an estimate, around 500 games played? My rank is only 39, so that would mean I wouldn’t be able to play ranked.
I have -100 games played in ranked and I reached ruby.
Your plan would require I play an extra 300 games to reach Rank 50, and an additional 100 for provisional ratings to expire.

There probably are a lot of players like me who do fairly well in a PvP environment, but learned to PvP via WvW, and just started to try PvP. You would unfairly lock these people out from PvP.

ronpierce.2760:

entitled solo-quing casuals feel they MUST be able to reach legendary or it shouldn’t exist at all… I hate to come off as harsh, but why?

Wait, solo-queuers can’t be non-casuals?
I get that sPvP is a team game so you’ll do a lot better with a team. But that shouldn’t take the fun away from solo-queueing.

KhaidaG.5098:

Galandil.9641:

It’s just not true due to how MMR+MM work.

Of course it’s true. If we look at it from the opposing point of view then what? Some accounts are eternally doomed to never be able to climb just because they have lost some games in the past? Individual skill has no meaning anymore because this account is forever going to get matched with bad teammates vs unbeatable opponents? If you’re good enough, given enough time you carry your way out of whatever division you’re in. If you’re not good enough you stay there and rightfully so, this is the nature of competitive gaming.

What utter nonsense – if you are paired with 4 awful players no matter how skilled you are against any half decent team you will lose virtually all the time 1 player cannot carry a whole team all of the time and good players are stuck in lower divisions – fact! progression is impossible no matter how good or how much you improve

Evan Lesh.3295:

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing,

Except it doesn’t. There are —five-- other players on one’s team that determine the outcome of the match. Improved skill of a single player will not translate into climbing out of a division. In addition, overpowered classes/builds do even more to ruin this prospect.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

Of course there is! But isn’t that what the developers are paid to come up with!!?? A start would be to implement a way for people to see that the system either is or isn’t screwing them over. Show total games played, total games played for currently selected class, current division, current pips. As long the system is a non-transparent one, you’re going to have people calling “bullkitten” forever.

Pure Heart.1456:

Evan Lesh.3295:

Should average players stay in the middle divisions because that’s where they belong at their skill level? This retains prestige and only improving skill will allow climbing,

Except it doesn’t. There are —five-- other players on one’s team that determine the outcome of the match. Improved skill of a single player will not translate into climbing out of a division. In addition, overpowered classes/builds do even more to ruin this prospect.

Evan Lesh.3295:

Is there an incentive that could be added to league games for players who have reached their appropriate division and can no longer climb?

Of course there is! But isn’t that what the developers are paid to come up with!!?? A start would be to implement a way for people to see that the system either is or isn’t screwing them over. Show total games played, total games players for currently selected class, current division, current pips. As long the system is a non-transparent one, you’re going to have people calling “bullkitten” forever.

this agree entirely +1

Yasi.9065:

To be perfectly honest… ruby is atm worse than amber/smaragd regarding quality of players.

And thats purely because players got either carried their by a winstreak, luck and above average starting mmr… or they grinded their way into it.

Thats why matches in ruby are just terrible… this already extends way into diamond too.

So the system is grindable enough.

To improve this, division locks have to be removed, there’s no way around it… only amber and smaragd should be grindable. Sapphire should get smaller tiers without tierlock… and ruby should remove division lock.

This way people can still make their way into ruby (achievement grindable), but they wont stay there if they arent good enough for it.

-> no bottleneck anymore

This should improve overall the distribution of players along the ladder and with that the quality of matches.

/edit
Also… there shouldnt be any comeback pips… you should never be rewarded for loosing… I get the “incentive” thought behind it… but it actually doesnt really help but make ladder more of a grind.
So, instead… Id re-introduce the mechanic of season1, where you didnt loose a pip if it was a close loss to a higher mmr team. This rewards fighting until the end. Which should be enough incentive to get better.

I completely agree but they should remove the division drop in Sapphire aswel.
Otherwise there’s only 1 div drop stopping them from proceeding into ruby, destroy some matches for other ruby div players there and return. Rinse and repeat..

Amber= no div/tier loss but pip loss
Emerald= no div loss but tier and pip loss
Sapphire= div/tier/pip loss
Etc…

Forum bug rekt boiz

Fun fact about the carrying argument.

Today I was in a match, that we lost really badly. 548-16. That was how badly.

The fun part is that we had, apparently, a pro player, who repeatedly called us “nonames”, “scrubs”, etc., you get the picture.

So, if he was indeed a proplayer (I’ll keep the name for myself at the moment, apparently he was really a pro, need to investigate a little bit more thou just to be sure), how come then we lost the game that badly? Wasn’t a proplayer supposed to carry matches? If he can’t do that, how could an average/good player do that if he’s fed bad teammates?

Galandil.9641:

Fun fact about the carrying argument.

Today I was in a match, that we lost really badly. 548-16. That was how badly.

The fun part is that we had, apparently, a pro player, who repeatedly called us “nonames”, “scrubs”, etc., you get the picture.

So, if he was indeed a proplayer (I’ll keep the name for myself at the moment, apparently he was really a pro, need to investigate a little bit more thou just to be sure), how come then we lost the game that badly? Wasn’t a proplayer supposed to carry matches? If he can’t do that, how could an average/good player do that if he’s fed bad teammates?

even if hes a pro he cant carry 4 scrubs or plebs whatever he call u guys from winning a game. everyone is expected to contribute 20% to the team. 1 person may carry 1 more bad player but he can only be effective as 2 person which is 40% the other 3 players must still be doing what they suppose to do.

Lopez.7369:

Evan has it exactly right.

Neither Evan nor you get it. It’s not about how high people go on the ladder. Everyone should peak at some point based on their skill level.

Once someone gets to their own individual peak, they should be getting balanced matches. The problem is that doesn’t happen. It is still a blowout whether you win or lose at whatever level you end on.

That’s why the season is a failure and why ANET needs to bring in some new talent to fix S3.