Guild Wars 2

The map would be interesting in ranked right now, since it would offer a way for people to beat certain setups they would get facerolled to 500-100 on foefire. I think enough fixes were made in the past to have less frustrating experiences (due to builds pulling on glass)

#1: Camera problems! thatd my main issue with skyhammer (some other maps)

When i play charr and stand on mid capture point i can hardly see whats going on. I think those capture points are just waay to small…

#2: Jump platforms, somehow it never works for me
#3: Less pillars/walls. Some are good but in skyhammer it feels like fighting the map instead of players

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

So, what would you change?

I would start with increasing the size of the map, not sure if you can ‘just scale’ it or that would me completely redesigning it.

The individual points with their close walls are just a mess for the camera and a burden for every range profession. I would love the side points to be as open as the side points on kyhlo.

Oh for larger characters yeh the camera would be a problem. Like in Khylo the tunnel under the clocktower is fine for a human but on my norm I can’t see a thing in a fight.

Really only need to make it so you don’t just random instant die (panels, knocked off, etc) and I think it’ll be plenty playable.

The damage from skyhammer itself isn’t too bad, just a slight nerf all around so its more in line with a treb. Platform needs to be bigger as classes with good knockbacks have way too much of an advantage. Or make it so it somehow knocks you off but you won’t die.

Is gliding possible? On this map only? Not sure if I want that in PvP but it might be worth the discussion.

Separate, and related:

Fear mechanic should not path people off ledges in PVP.

Remove jump pads and glass panels.

But honestly, the map doesn’t have a single decent aspect to it and you’d be wiser to direct your attention elsewhere. It’s a valiant effort, but I can’t think of anything that could fix this map, only make it a bit more bearable.

I wish they’d do away with Bounce pads and just add some sort of stairs, and combine some of the pillars (connect them). They add some really annoying issues with AI units, various spells and teleports, and often times the bounce pads don’t even work right… I think that’d be my #1 thing.

Then, yeah, remove fall deaths entirely and the glass, increase the width of the hammer room. Ideally, it’d be cool if you could still fall off the hammer room, but land on the map instead.

In general, maps do better with LESS clutter and more open areas, less dips and valleys, because it really screws with a lot of skills.

I think we need to scrap the map entirely but have a new one with the same dimensions but with fewer camera obstructions or ways of messing with the camera in general since mid’s wall is too cramped.

I say make the new map also in a desert region with no objects that could mess with your camera or general view on a point (or getting knocked into a wall and the camera goes wonky, add pan past wall with translucency to keep the normal camera and desired camera angle) and keep the basic design and layout but remove falling and have a secondary mechanic where in place of the skyhammer is a beast you could kill. It would be different from Forest because in Forest last hit kills (the problem there is two players could do most of the work but an opponent can just tap it once for an illegitimate extra 25 points) whereas here it would be the team that delivered most damage. It would respawn every three minutes.

The problem with using the jump pads is if you hold run it pushes you too far forward and you hit the thing you are trying to jump onto. The trick is to run onto the pad, stop running and push forward after the jump. It’s the same as the jump pads in not-so-secret jp and I think dragonball is the same too. I guess what people want is a fail safe jump pad that requires no technique to use them. If you have never done not-so-secret you might not have the foundation to figure it out easily.

The primary issues with the Skyhammer map center around balance. Unlike most pvp arenas, this map focuses on breaking balance with delays and powerful attacks, with no way of mitigating the effects of these balance breaking mechanics. Many players enjoy these mechanics because they have learned how to exploit them for great reward.

Imbalance by Delay
The deadfalls created by the glass floors and the cliffs near them create respawn delays that would not occur on any other PvP map. These delays can give a team an advantage that is insurmountable. The only way to fix these delays is to remove them. The trolling effect of the “golf” game makes for an entertaining moment the first time it occurs; but, just gets in the way of fair, balanced competition.

Imbalance by Power
Although the cannon seems like a great alternative to standard play, it allows a single player to deal amounts of damage that they could not deal otherwise as an area of effect. It would seem that this might give a losing team a chance to recover; but, in truth, a losing team that does not control the cannon wastes time and loses fights struggling to gain control of the canon. As the cannon can only be mitigated by a good dodge roll, there is no equally powerful defense from it.

Once the cannon and deadfalls are removed, the map becomes a standard PvP arena with some nifty verticality. That’s fine.

All PvP arenas should be designed to pit equally balanced teams against each other in fair competition. I’d rather have 30 maps that simply use current assets to provide different looks than 5 maps that each have unique mechanics that break game balance.

You don’t need to lose the map. You just need to lose all the complicating mechanics you’ve saddled it with.

[edit] I play with a 2560×1440 monitor, zoomed all the way out and have never had any camera issues on this map. I’m guessing the issues arise more when there’s less display real estate.

Something this map suffers more from than other maps is it’s susceptibility to spawn camping. The spawn exits for a team are so close together that the opposition can surround spawn and destroy the possibility for competition.

Mitigating spawn camping should be a basic priority for all PvP map designs.

I love Skyhammer, it is perfectly fine as it is.
I actually wish it was in ranked matches.

What we have here is an issue similar to people complaining about turret engineers. Those who complained about engi back then simply did not understand how to play around the AI of the turrets and if they did, they would have realized that the turret engineer was indeed a worse build and a liability to bring over a standard cele/rifle engi. Skyhammer complaints are very similar where the players who complain are simply players who are poor at paying attention to environmental effects or players who simply do not want to pay attention to the environmental effects. Thus they complain about a bad map each and every time they die to a glass panel breaking, ect.. ect..

On another note, probably more useful to arena-net than the above, here is my break down of the pros and cons of Skyhammer. While reading this, consider that we deactivated the Skyhammer and the breaking glass effects so that this break down is majorly based on the map itself and not the effects.

Pros:

• The map is small which means lots of combat engagement. This is probably what makes me love Skyhammer the most.
• Points A, B and C are placed correctly and promote good combat rotation play. They are also all small nodes, which makes for harder hitting skirmishes that end more quickly as compared to say mid in Legacy.
• Plenty of LoS in Skyhammer. In my opinion, this is what allows for higher skill play in Skyhammer actually. The LoS always allows a saving grace for a disengage or a way to turn a bad fight in to a good fight. This LoS is what allows the hard hitting small node skirmishing to maintain a balance. Such as the vertical elevation around the mid point.
• Plenty of optional strategic vertical positioning. No other map is quite like Skyhammer in this aspect. Other maps are sort of “head to home/mid/far, fight on home/mid/far” but Skyhammer offers more diverse positioning.

Cons: “from the perspective of what is making people not like this map”
Unfortunately, the very same things that make the map good are the things that make people not like this map. I shall explain:

• Map is small. Which means ease of cutting off enemy rotations and lots of combat engagement. This also means that winning combat trumps rotation theory that much more in Skyhammer, than any other map. This ultimately means that it is easier to dominate the Skyhammer map and hold three points than in any other map, due to how small it is. This makes a lot of losing players feel that much worse about their loss. Is it really a true problem with the map? Nah but it attributes to why people get mad in Skyhammer.
• Points A, B and C being all small nodes makes players in a losing fight feel like they got hit by a truck. Where in Legacy, it may take them 2 minutes to wipe and lose at mid, it will take them 20 seconds to wipe at mid in Skyhammer. Again, is this really a problem? Nah, it just makes people feel like they are getting rolled more so than in any other map.
• LoS in Skyhammer… allows strong players to just kite and survive all over the place, which rages players that do not understand how to utilize terrain and obstacles in the same way. Not really a real problem, just annoying and attributes to Skyhammer complaints.
• Vertical positioning/attacking/disengaging. I do have to say that some builds are better at this than others but the main problem still remains that strong players are able to be creative and do this, then some other players are not. The players who don’t take advantage of the map itself are the payers who get mad and complain about those who do.

Ultimately, the map itself “not considering environmental effects” is truly a L2P issue. It is an advanced map that offers advanced positioning and expedited combats on point. Because it is the only map of it’s type, players identify it as “a map that doesn’t fit in” and blame losing combats on the flaws of this map, when in reality these are players who aren’t creative enough to take advantage of what Skyhammer combat has to offer. That’s my opinion anyway.

On to environmental effects:

• Breaking glass panels ~ This is the #1 rage maker, right here. Nothing kittenes a player off more than dying at full health due to falling through a glass panel. What are the main causes of this? #1 is CC play. #2 Skyhammer strikes. #3 Plain not paying attention. A lot people who complain about #1 CC play will say that some classes have many more CCs than others and are able to exploit in Skyhammer. First of all, every class has CCs. Second of all, if a player wants to freshly burn all his CCs in focus of knocking you down a panel or off a ledge, he is making himself susceptible to losing in a normal combat so position yourself AWAY from the ledge or panel and win the combat against the guy burning all of his CCs. Others complain about Skyhammer itself breaking glass panels and yes, this can set up a very nasty combo for the people on point to CC others down pits or off ledges directly after but is this broken? No it is not. Is it annoying? Many players would say yes. To those who have the #3 problem, you guys need to start paying attention.
• The Skyhammer itself ~ Now the Skyhammer is special in a few ways that separate it from side objectives in other maps. Firstly it is actually a part of the map. It cannot be destroyed like a Trebuchet and it is always there. Secondly there is only one Skyhammer, not two. Thirdly it is too powerful to ignore and thus it becomes a mandatory objective. Whether you want to use the Skyhammer or stop enemies from using it, you need to pay constant attention to the Skyhammer. Due to the 3 above points made, the Skyhammer often turns in to sort of a “2nd mid point” if you would. It is like a cap point that needs to be defended. This is probably the biggest aspect of the Skyhammer map that causes players to not like the dynamic. Even if these players do not realize it, this is what is causing them to dislike Skyhammer, this is what it is. The only other comparable map is Temple, when Stillness and Tranquility spawn, which also draws players in to an alternative mid pointish type skirmish. The difference here however, is that shrines have brief presence in the match, where as the Skyhammer is present the entire match. The point I am trying to make is that it would seem that players prefer to have only 1 mid point skirmish area present. Matches are more simple and easier to understand that way. The other big thing that annoys people about the Skyhammer is that it isn’t as easy for most people to dodge as a trebuchet and requires much less effort to land strikes than it would on the trebuchet.

All in all I feel that complaints about Skyhammer are a true L2P issue. I’d say we need more maps like Skyhammer to get people used to the idea of spiced up conquest dynamic but I can say that if ONE thing needed to be done, you guys need to figure out a way to keep more focus on the mid point skirmish and less focus on skyhammer skirmishing. I believe this could be easily achieved by making the use of the skyhammer a significantly larger investment of time:

• When a team attempts to configure the Skyhammer to their color, it should take as long as it does to cap a point. This leaves plenty of time for the other team to interrupt the configuration and would deter players from so casually fighting over the Skyhammer. It would also prove to be a detrimental error for the team who attempted the Skyhammer cap but losses it, similar to a failed Lord/Tranquility push. This would be balanced.
• If the enemy team has the Skyhammer configured, your team can first kill the configuration in a short amount of time by neutralizing it so to say, just like on a cap point. Then you can quickly go back to node capping or chose to stand and attempt a full configuration yourself to use the Skyhammer.

The above would create apprehension towards fighting over the Skyhammer, keeping the fight mostly mid “where player want it”. A failed Skyhammer approach would award the players who are not over-committing to the Skyhammer, just like vs. Tranquility or Lord but players who successfully configure the Skyhammer will have truly deserved it this way.

You could also simply make the Skyhammer go online only a few times a match, maybe for durations of 1:00 at a time, similar to shrines or make kits that spawn somewhere in the map that require a run to the Skyhammer which allows maybe 1:00 of access to the Skyhammer, similar to trebechut repairs.

Whatever it is you do, aim at a dynamic that keeps the fight mid and makes the Skyhammer an “optional” side objective with punishment for failing, not something that is important to fight over the entire match.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Hey all,

We’ve been discussing potential improvements to existing PvP maps, and we wanted to get your thoughts on some ways that Skyhammer could be updated to be a less of a frustrating gameplay experience.

So, what would you change? What would you keep the same?

Hugh, don’t let me wrong but I honestly think this is a waste of time and resources.

Improving bad maps doesn’t solve other critical issues pvp has (mainly matchmaking, balance and teaching to players how to play correctly)

A bad casual map will stay a bad casual map, if you want another competitive map just design it from new.

BTW just 3 hints because skyhammer is bad

1) oneshot mechanic
2) jumping pads
3) bad teleport spots.

Little suggestion for hammer

It would be cool something for a come back mechanic. Maybe just make the room bigger (with no one shot mechanics) and not always active and let only 1vs1 inside. Like who wins the duel get the hammer and if you kill people with the hammer you gain a score bonus. Just an idea on the fly.

Use the metrics of map votes to decipher which maps players enjoy.

My play experience has been that Skyhammer gets few votes in general and results in a mass player exodus when it does get chosen by the randomizer. Your metrics surely show a more complete picture.

Any map that sends players fleeing to the exits should be removed from the rotation and replaced with something else.

Enable gliders!

@ Trevor – I have to say you can make a post interesting to read. Well thought out.

But unranked is for everyone. It’s not really a place for highly competitive teams to stomp people who have just joined gw. Seriously. You’d be suprised how hard spear of justice is to avoid. So like mesmers tend to do I could just camp on the hole and pull newbies into it all day. What would be the point of that? And what you are saying about the map being counter to rotation strategy. I’ve never found that and the map seems like the most rotated map in the game and least prone to zerging. (Hmm.. size does matter and I thought bigger maps would be better) All the points get constantly decapped.

I’m guessing from what you are saying you like go into skyhammer full military style and smack the kitten out of teams that include people trying to figure out keyboard turning. That’s pretty crazy stuff.

walls instead of cliffs
pits with a jumpy thing instead of holes

of course, then its just another forest

Nah, I just came from the generation who actually grew up playing platforming games.

1 remove laser. Really its so not inline with anything.
2 remove all glass . No falling to death any places
3 remove all jumping pads. Make stairs to elevatet levels were it need be.
4 addroom with tranq buff , 2 entrences no loading portal were laser is now
5 what would happen on a map with 4 nodes??

I have to say, I love Skyhammer, but the emphasis on certain builds makes it very unbalanced. KB and Stability shouldn’t be as important as they are.

• Remove/adjust the breakable panels at A and C point or Add second layer under the hole so players dont die, but still lose time for falling into them
  • Which do you like better?

They break, that’s fine, but you don’t die. And making them break from cannon fire wouldn’t change much.

• Take away the ability to die from falling damage
  • Do we want to completely remove the ability to die from falling damage or make it only in very specific places?

Pretty much remove it completely. Too overpowers KB/fear/stab. Just make it so that falling is a set-back, not auto-death.

That’s really the only problem.

Ideally, just add gliding and updrafts, so that if you get knocked off, you can recover. That would make it much more fun.

I like Skyhammer as it stands. It creates hard challenging matches.

The biggest issue I’ve seen is that because of the extreme AOE of dh/reaper/scrapper, they find it very easy to grab and hold the Skyhammer throughout a match.

the only possible way to make skyhammer less frustrating is to remove all of the “quirky” things you made the map for.

the edges need to go, the glass panels need to go, THE SKYHAMMER needs to be changed into a mere ornament.

gimmicks in pvp are frustrating, plain and simple, as long as skyhammer contains the gimmicks it will remain frustrating when that 1v7 map vote decides to troll the 7.

Instead of the skyhammer doing damage, it does knockdown/knockback outside of the circle, that is also dodgeable and has a telegraph. More CD on the skyhammer. A way to walk to the skyhammer instead of the teleport. A bigger plataform for the skyhammer.

Remove jump pads. Less holes in general.

I very much enjoy Skyhammer mostly, but I do agree that it’s a very small map and would get better with some more floor space. There is not enough space near the skyhammer and the points A and C are also very small and difficult to fight in because of the floors that turn off. The jump pads are difficult to use and the platforms they lead to are small and don’t cover you from attacks, so you’ll rarely try to get on them anyway.
I like the fact that it’s a map that doesn’t always result in the better team winning. I know it sounds stupid, but I like the feeling of “anything could happen” which is possibly the idea the designers went for in this map. Most of the time it’s the team that uses the map better that wins, and not necessary the team that fights better in 1v1 or 2v2 situation. It’s unranked for a reason, but it’s not a hopelessly bad map. Maybe just too many toys in the same toy box. If tuned, I would like to see it on ranked one day.

• Change the point A and C nodes to have an underlying platform like point B. So if you fall through the platforms, you simply end up under the point instead of insta-death (who thought that was a good idea in PvP?)

• Lower the Skyhammer damage, change from a knockdown to a Daze

• Add a large area under the Skyhammer platform for players to fall into when falling from platforms (again, like Point B’s under area)

• Have a capturable buff/console/computer underneath point B that will activate Skyhammer, the team must have control of this node in order to use the Skyhammer

• Also add capturable buff/node/console/computer to Point A and C that causes the node to pulse stability every 5 seconds if controlled.

• Fix jump pads so they are more reliable, perhaps require F (action button) to activate them instead of passively (may become a problem when downed players are on jump pads)

• Energy pads can only be destroyed by sky hammer blasts.

Unranked is a casual game. The gimmicks make it different and fun. You can go in and test a build and there’s no major gain or loss from winning or losing. This thread doesn’t seem to be suggesting it will ever be a ranked game. Relax people.

If you like the knockback/pull/fear abuse on the skyhammer platform or holes (that destroys the enjoyment of the game as a pvp battle) you either haven’t been in a game with warriors and mesmers or you are one of the perpetrators. Or you are a glutton for punishment.

The Skyhammer cannon gives too much vision to the user. It needs to be in line with trebuchets, which put you far from the fight and limit your own awareness rather than the reverse.

The jump pads can be improved by pathing them the same way HoT mushrooms are pathed (forced destination).

1. Make jump pads require more interaction to activate than just walking on them. (You should either have to jump on them or interact with them)
2. Floor panels should never break.
3. It should not be possible to walk or be knocked off the side of the map.

Getting instantly full-deathed by a single mistake or CC skill is the most annoying things about this map, and the above changes would do a lot to alleviate these issues. At the very least opportunities to die from fall damage should be limited a lot more than they are now.

Accidentally walking on a jump pad is also very annoying as well since it effectively disables you.

Leave everything the same and enable gliders. You have to have a map with gliders! Got KB off cliff? Deploy your glider. Put an elevator at the bottom so a KB off the cliff means you just waste a little time getting back into the fight. Have the elevator from the pit take you to the skyhammer platform. So you could jump off cliff and get to skyhammer platform quicker w/o the person on the cannon seeing you coming a mile away

You can’t attack while gliding so you are a bit of a sitting duck, but that’s the trade-off for a straight shot from mid to home/far.

Seriously, gliders would make skyhammer awesome!

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Awesome thread so far everyone! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to write up their feedback and keep it constructive. Let’s do a quick recap:

• Remove/adjust the breakable panels at A and C point or Add second layer under the hole so players dont die, but still lose time for falling into them
  * Which do you like better?

Remove them or make them brake by the hammer only. (Read my suggestion on skyhammer mechanic change by the end).

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

• Glass Panels only break from cannon fire
  * What do we think about this suggestion?

Only per hammer strike.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

• Enlarge the Skyhammer Platform, Add line of sight props
• Add multiple portals to get to and from the skyhammer platform
  * Does this have to be in both places: in center of map and skyhammer platform or just the skyhammer platform?

Both places. The thing is not having to necessarily step on traps.

• Adjust the jump pads
• Take away the ability to die from falling damage
  * Do we want to completely remove the ability to die from falling damage or make it only in very specific places?

Specific places.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

• Adjust middle point high ground
  * Do we want to completely remove this because of gameplay/camera problems or adjust it as it creates good gameplay but messes with camera

I like the high ground, please keep it.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

• Secondary Mechanic Adjustment
  * Reduce Damage
  * Increase Cooldown
  * Reduce the turn speed

My idea for this is making Skyhammer a three-times per match thing. It’d go like this:

At minute 10:00, large display appears: “SKYHAMMER IS READY TO SHOOT”.
The doors to the skyhammer platform would be enabled to enter. When a player channels the skyhammer control panel (may need a larger channeling): SKYHAMMER CALIBRATED TO BLUE TEAM….STAND CLEAR.
BAM!
The skyhammer shoots the very same laser it shoots right now, still dodge-able and having the same power to all three points (one by one, maybe in a random pattern).

That would make the hammer a nice thing to have, but not the most important goal in the map.

Then, make the map a little bit wider like people have suggested. Remove all higher ground besides mid, things like pillars, balconies and jump pads. After that, it could even go to ranked imo.

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Hey all,

We’ve been discussing potential improvements to existing PvP maps, and we wanted to get your thoughts on some ways that Skyhammer could be updated to be a less of a frustrating gameplay experience.

So, what would you change? What would you keep the same?

Off topic but I think it’s worth consideration: Removing Capricorn was a terrible, terrible choice. Without the water it seems like it would be a fun map. Maybe a few tweaks here and there, add/remove obstacles and make the middle ship accessible from mid + side nodes with ramps.

Still off topic, stronghold lord HP and downstate mechanic needs to be implemented into Foefire. It is way too easy to kill lord with most elite specs, especially rev/necro.

On topic: panels are an awful mechanic for the side nodes but they’re fine on hammer. I also think hammer is fine because it is easily contested. Jumping pads are bugged, perhaps improve them or implement mushroom jumping mechanic.

jessiestiles.9437:

khani.4786:

Almost all classes now have access to some sort of push or pull to knock people off so I don’t see a problem there.

You already added more “railings” so there is less chance of getting knocked off everywhere.

I don’t see the problem with this map and why people hate it. I think it’s fun and having the hammer there is no different than beasts/trebs/lords/etc.

The only thing I might change is adding a second way to get to the hammer. While I love trapping/marking up the door it does feel cheap.

The map is widely hated because of abuse. Every profession can pull or knock back and it has occured to everyone they can win just by pulling people into holes. They aren’t stupid. However for some people that wouldn’t be a satisfactory win because it’s using a cheap tactic like you described traps. Instead of having an enjoyable fight i’ll just instantly kill you. I’d say more people wouldn’t play like that than there are people who would. It’s sad because I like the challenge of fighting in a small area and trying to avoid running or dodging into the holes. There’s no choice but to get rid of them.

I haven’t played unranked in a while so I haven’t seen the railings they put up. From past experience during ranked there’s too many premades wanting to stomp in unranked. I’ll have to have a look.

Sorry but how is using the cliffs as a weapon abuse? Everytime I get close to the edge, I remember that someone can push me off the edge. If they do KB me off the edge, I don’t cry, I just wish that I had better positioning so that I could have KB them.

I think having more competitive maps would be great. Games like dota and lol have their variety with insane amount of heroes. Gw2 have fixed amount of classes, so having many maps would bring that fresh breath of air.
I’d fix skyhammer, capricorn and spirit watch, with some tweaks and fixed all of these maps could be super fun and competitive.
But having pro players giving their input would be crucial for project like this.

So far I’m liking ideas of other players about skyhammer. Removing jump pads, increasing ABC nodes, no death from falling, making slight adjustments to laser, all really solid ideas.

Now that I’ve seen a few other people mention it, Hugh, are gliders a possibilty? Obviously non-HoT accounts would either need access on just this map, or the map would need an alternative for them. Or I suppose it could just be a perk of having HoT, since it isn’t ranked. I would anticipate salt if that were the case, though.

In my opinion, Skyhammer is THE best designed map if you take the gimicks out of the equation. The way it is built encourages smaller skirmishes and prevents snowballing due to the large-ish distance between points and small-ish distance from spawn to the points.

If anything is to be changed about Skyhammer, the layout should remain the same.

On the flip-side, the jump pads and disappearing platforms should be adjusted.
The jump pads should be readjusted to be more reliable (maybe have them always launch to a pre-determined location, similar to the jumping mushrooms in HoT maps). The platforms, in the other hands, should probably be removed entirely. They’re janky, unreliable, and give a huge advantage to knockbacks, pulls, and immobilizes.

As for the Hammer itself, its role is fine (though the platform it’s controls are on should maybe be enlarged somewhat), but the implementation is sort of wonky. A guildmate recommended that maybe the hammer have its attack split into two abilities: The standard big aoe damage, and a knockdown attack. To prevent it from becoming too weak, maybe the latter attack should apply conditions or something…

One thing that I think a lot of people don’t realize, is that there is a tremendous opportunity cost to using the Hammer – and with the current meta builds, it often just isn’t worth it at all! Having one guy man the hammer leaves your team at a 4v5 disadvantage, and most specs now have so many evades, invulns, and stability stacks that it frequently renders the slow-attacking, highly telegraphed hammer as useless in a large teamfight. But, this is mostly in more organized teams – it still demolishes lower-skilled puggers (much like necro >_>).

All in all, I think Skyhammer is a really good map that is only a few changes away from being ranked-appropriate.

In comparison, Spiritwatch has more fundamental issues, and Courtyard needs other deathmatch maps to be compared to.

@ ROC I said at the start the start of the thread the ability to get knocked off the edge of the map is funny. You know it’s your own fault for getting too close to the edge. And I asked for no railings, and no change to instant death on the map edge. The abuse is specifically refering to the holes where mesmer can easily pull you into them, or skyhammer platform where you can get feared off by warriors. Their fear is unblockable, disables all your skills and lasts for 3 seconds. On that small platform you can be in the center and get feared off and there’s no way to avoid it.

IMO:

Remove the Asura Gate. Instead have staircases from points A and C to the Skyhammer. This lets you pick more ways to get up there so that “stack marks/traps on the gate, ezwin” isn’t a thing.

Remove all fading pads.

Add a catcher underneath points A and C with the return ramp near the spawn. Getting knocked off doesn’t kill you immediately but still delays your return.

The problem of Skyhammer is conquest. The obligation to stay on-point negates the map’s playability.

It needs to be redone into a Deathmatch map like Courtyard, into Stronghold, or completely change the secondary objective.

adjust jump pads so the landing location is fixed.

no drop panel traps next to points

i’m of the opinion that it’s easier to start a new map from scratch than fix skyhammer, and it’ll probably be understandable once i list my problems with it:

• no more jump pads. they’re wonky for players with any amount of ping.

• no more one-shot-kill spots, or any gameplay that requires drastic build/comp alterations from standard conquest maps. this means no glass panels that lead to your death and no death pits. the problem with that is that it’s so different from conquest it might as well be another game mode, and it has its own balance and meta, making it completely unviable for competitive conquest. if you want to support a CC fest game mode, go ahead, but keep it separated.

• side points need a serious redesign. they’re too closed off, and too bare. this causes a few problems: first, you as a defender have no LoS of the rest of the map, or hell, anywhere in your immediate vincinity; second, despite that defensive flaw, it’s awfully predictable where your opponent will come from. there are too few avenues to come from, meaning your opening gambit is very boring and predictable (compare it to the keep on forest, or altar on temple); third, there is very little gameplay around the point itself. very little LoSing, and the area is extremely cramped.

• the skyhammer itself is, surprisingly, fine. maybe reduce the affected area though, so players down below can actually manage it more easily like they do with treb. some form of shutting it down would also be interesting, as a mechanic that demands constant attention throughout the match causes a lot of problems. it could instead be something you fight to channel every once in a while (like temple buffs or stronghold heroes) and whoever finishes the channel fires one shot from the skyhammer instantly (no build up, or at least drastically reduced) on all 3 points, once, and then it’s another few minutes without it. this would create a situation not unlike tranquility on temple, but with a different enough effect to stand out as its own thing.

• the mechanic might be fine, but the arena around it isn’t. assuming the second directive of “no killzones” is followed, you’re left with an arena hardly larger than two lava fonts across, with no LoS other than the tiny console and no room for movement.

• i have no problems with mid. i actually think it’s a pretty interesting place to fight on, though maybe make the “scaffolding” around it a bit further from the point, (again, things are too cramped).

Skyhammer is a fun map. It requires different skills compared to the ranked PvP-maps. However, it would require an entire new skill balance for the classes.

I would suggest implementing some of the changes (there has been a long list which I dont want to extent) and test them. Afterwards we can discuss again. It is hard to forecast the actual outcome accurately.

When it comes to new maps in general: You started already with splitting up the PvP maps into two sections. One was real player vs. player fights and not much around, the other was that two groups had to fulfill a task and who was faster/more successful wins. Each type requires different maps designs. I would suggest making clear maps for each direction.

examples for direction 1 are the maps of ranked PvP.

examples of direction 2 are Spirit watch (to a certain extent) and Stronghold.

As I understood it, the goal with Skyhammer is direction 1. The ideal map for direction 1 would be a map with many strategic possibilities to get to a point, to hold a point or to attack a player holding the point. However, it should not have many other things. Skyhammer has many of these opportunities when we talk about the mid, but not too many when we talk about the sides. So when we talk about changing the map (beside the problem with falling down and the skyhammer) we also have to talk about the strategies. Currently, there are 2 ways to get to the mid-point. one is straight and on top, the other is coming up the stairs. The first is faster, the second has a surprise element. Interesting could be to strenghten coming from behind (so to make the pathway shorter/easier). The side points could benefit from a second feasible way to approach it, e.g. from the top. As I said before, implement and test some changes. First in a closed environment if they are feasible and then in an update to all of us.

As I already did the pre-work: I would suggest splitting between the two directions. That means, direction 1 focus on PvP fights and less to nothing around it. Think of a chess board as orientation (I know it will be hard for a designer not to be too creative). direction 2 can be a creative world. Think of Spirit Watch without points for holding the points. So only points for bringing the orb to one of the three targets. In this direction, some nice features like a skyhammer could be interesting. The fun will come from the unexpected, the different and not from the joy of being “better” than the others.

I like the map in its current state, but I am okay with the suggestion of changing the cannon platform so it’s harder to die versus people with Knockback, Launch, or Fear. Skyhammer should deal slightly less damage and not Knockdown players. The audio indicator by the scientist that sounds like Trahearne should stay.

What if, instead of making it so only the cannon can break the disappearing platforms, they broke after being on it too long? This would mean that if you just passed over it, then walked backward over it, you wouldn’t fall. Either that or, as soon as it breaks, it comes back.

People don’t seem to like the idea of the opening staying there for awhile before it regenerates. However, I think that it players should still be rewarded for stunning or immobilizing a player that is on a disappearing platform.

The way it currently works is:

1. Player walks over platform
2. Platform flickers as a warning
3. Platform fades and players on the platform fall to their death
4. Platform is still a threatening empty space

How it could work:

1. Player is standing on platform for an extended period of time (2? 3? 4? seconds) for any reasons: standing still, Immobilized, Knockdown, moving slowly (walking or Chilled)
2. Platform flickers in the same way just before it breaks
3. Platform breaks
4. Platform regenerates within a second

If this would be too confusing to players, perhaps there could be a modification to the flickering behaviour or a different indicator. Obviously, the larger platforms are harder to get off of, unlike the tiny ones near the control points. This would make the tiny ones people complain about balanced while not making them a useless terrible feature.

1. Move the main platform closer to the ground and the skyhammer platform closer to the main platform so that falling down won’t kill you. Add a way to get back to the main platform from the ground level.
2. At points A and C there is were little room to fight. At one side of the cap point there is a wall, at the other side there are the 3 holes, so if you have to leave the cap point you have to move really close to the holes. Expand the whole area, make more room for fighting, make it so there is more space between the holes… and then you can even make the holes larger.
3. Skyhammer will either be too strong or will end up like trebs, never used. I don’t even know what can be done about it, maybe replace it with a different secondary objective?
4. Adjust the jump pads to more reliably put you where you need to be.

• Sky hammer cannon should deal less dmg but it should knock the enemies off the point… yep, right into those sweet holographic plates.
• Sky hammer cannon should have recharge time, about 30-60s. In other words no more spamming.
• There are parts of the map that are useless. Mainly: the area under the central point and the area between two other points (I don’t really remembet which of them is A, B or C).
• After a Sky hammer cannon’s attack the whole map (besides sky hammer cannon’s platform) should shake and it would cause a short knockdown effect for everyone without stability.

Those ideas are more about introdusing something new in PvP. Not only brute force but a battle between stability and CC effects. And ofc you can’t remove holo hexagons. It make this map unique.

hugh,

skyhammer map is fine, really.
but let me reply to what you wrote.
my replies in >>

Hugh Norfolk.2798:

Awesome thread so far everyone! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to write up their feedback and keep it constructive. Let’s do a quick recap:

…

Just to clarify, this is just a discussion and we are not specifically committing to any or all of the suggestions, but it does help us to understand how you (the pvp community) sees the map and determine what can be improved.

• Remove/adjust the breakable panels at A and C point or Add second layer under the hole so players dont die, but still lose time for falling into them
  >> no. the breakable panels at A & C are fine.
  >> dun remove or adjust.

• Which do you like better?
  >> its fine now. players falling through them should die.

…
…

• Glass Panels only break from cannon fire
  • What do we think about this suggestion?
    >> bad. glass panels will break from walking through them. it is fine now.

• Enlarge the Skyhammer Platform, Add line of sight props
  >> no need to enlarge. the size is just right for tight skirmishes.
  >> some line of sight props would be nice.
  >> also give the line of sight props infinite health so necros can build life force, warriors can build arenaline while fighting up there.

…
…
…

• Add multiple portals to get to and from the skyhammer platform
  • Does this have to be in both places: in center of map and skyhammer platform or just the skyhammer platform?
    >> add one way portals at both A & C, only accessible by their respective team members,
    >> blue portal at A, red portal at C.
    >> only blue team members can use blue portal at A.
    >> only red team members can use red portal at C.
    >> this way, after capping home, home defenders can go to skyhammer.
    >> home defenders can also flee into skyhammer if home is rushed.

• Adjust the jump pads
  >> more jump pads would be nice.
  >> add two (2) one way jump pads at middle (B) that jumps directly to A & C.
  >> this might makes controlling middle (B) important.

• Take away the ability to die from falling damage
  >> no. fall damage is fine.
  >> in fact, add jump pads on higher platforms so we can actually use our fall damage traits !!!

• Do we want to completely remove the ability to die from falling damage or make it only in very specific places?
  >> no. keep death from falling.

• Adjust middle point high ground
  • Do we want to completely remove this because of gameplay/camera problems or adjust it as it creates good gameplay but messes with camera
    >> it is fine. please add jump pads on the higher ground so we can use fall damage traits!

• Secondary Mechanic Adjustment
  • Reduce Damage
    >> no. increase damage! it can be very easily dodged now!

• Increase Cooldown
  >> no. decrease cooldown! need more sky cannons !

• Reduce the turn speed
  >> no. increase turn speed! MORE CANNON !!!

>> can consider adding a count down before the cannon impact, for counter play.
>> for example,
SKYHAMMER CANNON IMPACT IN
THREE !!!
TWO !!!
ONE !!!
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM !!!!!!

• Remove Skyhammer from Unranked
  • Do we think the map simply can’t be altered to stay in Unranked?
    >> no. skyhammer is fine in unranked.

Make Skyhammer a special channel like Temple, where you can only access the platform while it is active at say 13 minutes, 8 minutes, and 3 minutes.

If you complete the channel, it will fire a shot on all three points that deals the normal damage / knockdown to enemies if it hits and neutralizes the point if the enemy has it, or flips it to your team if it were neutral before.

…That’s my idea for Skyhammer anyways, I rather it not be like a treb on that map.

I have just one request : CLIENT SIDE JUMP PADS

They are astonishingly frustrating with a ping of 300.

The other changes under discussion look good too, but that one change is the big one for me.

Assic.2746:

• After a Sky hammer cannon’s attack the whole map (besides sky hammer cannon’s platform) should shake and it would cause a short knockdown effect for everyone without stability.

this is okay in a PvE environment but that’s insane

Sykper.6583:

Make Skyhammer a special channel like Temple, where you can only access the platform while it is active at say 13 minutes, 8 minutes, and 3 minutes.

If you complete the channel, it will fire a shot on all three points that deals the normal damage / knockdown to enemies if it hits and neutralizes the point if the enemy has it, or flips it to your team if it were neutral before.

…That’s my idea for Skyhammer anyways, I rather it not be like a treb on that map.

sounds fun but I think it shouldn’t capture neutral points