Guild Wars 2

flow.6043:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

flow.6043:

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Warhorn #5 – Should be swapped with #4 and given a shorter CD.

What do you mean by “swap with #4”?

I mean make WH #5 the skill in the WH#4 slot and vice-versa, then shorten the CD on Locust Swarm. The skill being in the 5th slot seems to be the only reason that the CD has to be as long as the CD on Wail of Doom. The duration of daze on Wail can be completely awesome, so I see the need for 30s CD there, but is there a reason that swiftness uptime can’t be better than 33% without HUGE investment? I don’t see a good one. It is a minor thing to “swap” the skills. The reduced CD is the meaningful part.

Oh, so you mean just shorten the CD, regardless of which slot it is in.
I guess longer swiftness would be nice too… though the base duration of it coincides with the swarm that surrounds you. And that deals damage, cripples and generates life force.
So would you like both increased or just swiftness?

You bring up a good point of discussion in a round-about way. Shortening CD increases the uptime of both, but not the duration. I think that you could safely increase (the up time of) both without imbalancing it in the current state of the class since the damage is tiny and the AoE is also tiny. The only place thakitten would cause a problem is if they fix life siphon to scale in an appropriate manner because then the extra ticks on Vampiric and Vampiric Precision could potentially make too bif of a difference. If I remember correctly there was a point in time that the effect of swarm was a lifesteal rather than just damage, and I suspect that the long CD is a relic from before that nerf.

flow.6043:

Tenderly.7019:

Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way.

With that change a terror build would have a standard 3-4 second fear on every fear skill. That’s like ~5k damage for fear alone.

Why would that be a problem? You do realize that the other classes are capable of doing that much and more with their skills in the form of direct damage, right? AKA, instantly? 5k damage over 4 seconds is a far cry from 5k instant, and would only be achievable with condition builds. Necromancers have zero burst capability as a condition build, so that 5k damage wouldn’t even be followed up with anything major.

I remember some where that ANet said that they want condition damage to be on par with direct damage. Well, without burning, necromancers are not on par with that ideal.

Oblivion.8307:

vicious.5683:

Necro: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siphoned_Power
Thief: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed_Weakness

Can Devs even see this imbalance???

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

one of these: 1. you’re kittened 2. you’re a thief 3. you’re a newbie 4 you’re a condition necro and don’t know a kitten about power trait tree.
if you go 25 points on curses, you are a condition necro. As you dont know, let me teach you: condition damage doesn’t scale with this trait, just direct damage, wich is awfull on scepter o staff.
there is no way you can compare 1% more damage during 5 secs vs 10% more damage almost permanent.
Besides you are comparing two different trait lines.

I can’t believe all the people trying keep this game imbalanced.

vicious.5683:

Oblivion.8307:

vicious.5683:

Necro: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siphoned_Power
Thief: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed_Weakness

Can Devs even see this imbalance???

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

one of these: 1. you’re kittened 2. you’re a thief 3. you’re a newbie 4 you’re a condition necro and don’t know a kitten about power trait tree.
if you go 25 points on curses, you are a condition necro. As you dont know, let me teach you: condition damage doesn’t scale with this trait, just direct damage, wich is awfull on scepter o staff.
there is no way you can compare 1% more damage during 5 secs vs 10% more damage almost permanent.
Besides you are comparing two different trait lines.

I can’t believe all the people trying keep this game imbalanced.

Was this post:
1) Constructive – Nope, not in any way.
2) Intelligent – Nope. Calling this particular poster a Noob is poor form.

There is a clear difference of opinion about the value of the trait and not an effort to keep the game imbalanced. Changing this trait to be +20% damage on foes with one condition would appear wildly OP, but would not fix any of the problems with the current state of Necromancer, nor make them OP. The one minor GM trait getting this much attention is silly. I believe Oblivion is just saying that other things carry far more importance as it pertains to Necro viability, and he is spot on.

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

Tenderly.7019:

Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way.

With that change a terror build would have a standard 3-4 second fear on every fear skill. That’s like ~5k damage for fear alone.

Why would that be a problem? You do realize that the other classes are capable of doing that much and more with their skills in the form of direct damage, right? AKA, instantly? 5k damage over 4 seconds is a far cry from 5k instant, and would only be achievable with condition builds. Necromancers have zero burst capability as a condition build, so that 5k damage wouldn’t even be followed up with anything major.

I remember some where that ANet said that they want condition damage to be on par with direct damage. Well, without burning, necromancers are not on par with that ideal.

True.
But, this would be 5k plus all other conditions and direct damage you can pull off during that time. So this one fear un-stun-breaked might really do 7-10k. Now this is pretty devastating for some classes who have less than 20k hp. That means they need to burn a stun break for every fear to stay in the fight at all. And since you could queue a corrupted stability – Reaper’s Mark – Doom, you could force another player into this chain or make him burn all his defensive skills. This would be like a thief being able to use Basilisk Venom 3 times in a row.

Then again… a thief can finish you with a few crits in a couple of seconds, so I guess it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

Personal opinion.

As an ex-systems analyst/auditor (among many other things) I have learned that you should not try to design the basis of any system around outlier low probability results.Outliers need to be accepted as low frequency and seen as such and the circumstances that caused them should be addressed specifically…not only through restricting the activity itself (eg is 2 CBs and 2 epidemics produce an outlier you potentially place a DR on them WHEN USED CLOSELY TOGETHER….NOT generally or in different circumstances). It is almost impossible to incorporate system balance to equitably deal with those improbable outliers and the run-of-the mill results that will overwhelmingly be more likely outcomes.

In many of the arguments here, and as seen by the hesitancy by the devs to even contemplate the occasional outliers in out abilities, reasonable suggestions for the bulk of the potential gameplay suggestions are being too readily dismissed by the slight probability that once in a while the planets will line up and some exceptional outcome is possible…occasionally and NOT consistantly.

I think for balancing and skills development the devs should not be focussing just on the outlier results as reasons to limit abilities but should also consider the likelihood of such aberrations and address that as the balancing factor.

Also, Necro players are not some unique breed of game player. I don’t think “blaming the players” for adopting the “cookie cutter” builds because they work is helping anyone’s cause. Other professions are doing exactly the same and it is the comparitive results that are causing players to be gun shy in trying newer builds which usually have proven to be less effective. I trust more the fact that the competively focussed players will chose the most effective builds rather than hypothesizing that the reason for that choice is that they are lazy or stubborn or reluctant to change. I don’t think the players are at fault for expressing their disatisfaction at the poorer necro performance when adopting the same build strategies as any other profession and achieving inferior results.

Look, the big problem for necros is the range of conditions we have isnt sufficient. No burning, no confusion, less poison than some other classes, not a great deal of vuln on good weapons (or any lol), lack of immobs on condi weapons. This means that all those “cures 3 conditions every 10 seconds” etc traits and skills (shouts, cantrips or whatever) always seem to wipe their condis. Burning would be nice…….could they give it to us flavour wise? I dunno?

Necro still have good stuff. Fear is good. Corrupt boon is amazing, signet res is good, consume conditions is good. Some good stuff on staff (altho having to trait for it sucks and the cds are quite long and auto attack is horrendus). Scepter is resonable but having scepter 3 on a condi weapon is wierd.

The new condition – if it is powerful and not on a huge cd (under 30 seconds) will help ALOT potentially.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

vicious.5683:

Oblivion.8307:

vicious.5683:

Necro: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siphoned_Power
Thief: 25 point power trait.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Exposed_Weakness

Can Devs even see this imbalance???

Oh yeah, the imbalance is ridiculous.

one of these: 1. you’re kittened 2. you’re a thief 3. you’re a newbie 4 you’re a condition necro and don’t know a kitten about power trait tree.
if you go 25 points on curses, you are a condition necro. As you dont know, let me teach you: condition damage doesn’t scale with this trait, just direct damage, wich is awfull on scepter o staff.
there is no way you can compare 1% more damage during 5 secs vs 10% more damage almost permanent.
Besides you are comparing two different trait lines.

I can’t believe all the people trying keep this game imbalanced.

Was this post:
1) Constructive – Nope, not in any way.
2) Intelligent – Nope. Calling this particular poster a Noob is poor form.

The one minor GM trait getting this much attention is silly. I believe Oblivion is just saying that other things carry far more importance as it pertains to Necro viability, and he is spot on.

maybe it’s not importan to you. this post it’s about the state of necromancer. If necromancer have useless traits it important to put it on the table.
How about “reanimator”? everyone knows its abysmal, and if you post about it… that make you ignorant? that make you a whiner? Calling ignorant and whiner other people, posting their opinions, it’s quite noobish. I don’t know this person, maybe is just ignorant, he has to choose the better option.

Necromancers are supposed to be masters of attrition. So let’s think of ways to buff the class in that regard.

Our cast times are to slow, and in a long fight we will fail many of them.
*War horn daze should be instant cast like the thiefs daze, so we can stop heal.
*focus 5
*dagger 3

He have no access to vigor or block, that wins attrition fights.
Life steal is bad and doesn’t make up for this.

Side note. Make staff marks scale better with power

100% agree Lordrosicky.5813

The problem is in number of traits and skills cleaning conditions, they are balanced vs Engineer not vs Necro, so necro will need more conditions or engi less cond + all other classes will get less cond cleans.
IMO if we get some more poison on scepter and one extra cond just for covering our bleeds it would be great.

@ staff: Oblivion already said it in SOTG, marks should be greater at beggining and unblock + 20% recharge should be merged ( i hope that was what u said if im wrong then sory )

@ “Target the Weak” trait : this issue is irrelevant ( IMO ofc ) for me a Reanimator trait is dumbest minortrait in whole game. Jagged Horrors are just useless. And i dont have to take always Target the Weak but i have to invest my points in Reanimator each time i take Staff.

I would gladly see some way to escape or block on Necro:
Spectral Armor is just bad, its not worth Utilty Slot ( even Last Gasp trait has lower CD! )
Flesh Wurm , i love this skill but it has so kitten long cast time!! Why??
Foot in the Grave Trait, last but not least, also love this one ( stability is great ) but why cant it be 3,5 sec?? i cant even stomp properly with it, they want us to write macros for Shroud stomp or what???

I dont expect BIG changes but few ideas posted in this topic wouldnt OverBuff Necro but make him viable.

Alustriel.6802:

@ “Target the Weak” trait : this issue is irrelevant ( IMO ofc ) for me a Reanimator trait is dumbest minortrait in whole game. Jagged Horrors are just useless. And i dont have to take always Target the Weak but i have to invest my points in Reanimator each time i take Staff.

Target the Weak it’s OK, Siphoned Power is… well underpower, and you have to take each time you take axe or dagger.

I’d dare to say siphoned power is worse than reanimator, cause it’s a 25 point trait

Lets say they are even? :-)

What I mean by that i have to alwatys get this trait its that if i want to invest some points in Death Magic ( Greater Marks ) i had to invest it in Reanimator too, and its not a case of investing 25 in Spite Magic because there is smaller number of builds that need it ( ofc if we make Power Necro it is necessary most of time)

Oldbugga.7029:

Personal opinion.

As an ex-systems analyst/auditor (among many other things) I have learned that you should not try to design the basis of any system around outlier low probability results.Outliers need to be accepted as low frequency and seen as such and the circumstances that caused them should be addressed specifically…not only through restricting the activity itself (eg is 2 CBs and 2 epidemics produce an outlier you potentially place a DR on them WHEN USED CLOSELY TOGETHER….NOT generally or in different circumstances). It is almost impossible to incorporate system balance to equitably deal with those improbable outliers and the run-of-the mill results that will overwhelmingly be more likely outcomes.

In many of the arguments here, and as seen by the hesitancy by the devs to even contemplate the occasional outliers in out abilities, reasonable suggestions for the bulk of the potential gameplay suggestions are being too readily dismissed by the slight probability that once in a while the planets will line up and some exceptional outcome is possible…occasionally and NOT consistantly.

I think for balancing and skills development the devs should not be focussing just on the outlier results as reasons to limit abilities but should also consider the likelihood of such aberrations and address that as the balancing factor.

Also, Necro players are not some unique breed of game player. I don’t think “blaming the players” for adopting the “cookie cutter” builds because they work is helping anyone’s cause. Other professions are doing exactly the same and it is the comparitive results that are causing players to be gun shy in trying newer builds which usually have proven to be less effective. I trust more the fact that the competively focussed players will chose the most effective builds rather than hypothesizing that the reason for that choice is that they are lazy or stubborn or reluctant to change. I don’t think the players are at fault for expressing their disatisfaction at the poorer necro performance when adopting the same build strategies as any other profession and achieving inferior results.

Posts like these shouldn’t be ignored.

Alustriel.6802:

Lets say they are even? :-)

yeah, I suppose we could say that =P

the sad part is they already buffed Reanimator’s jagged horror.

Blackmoa.3186:

You might want to spectate a condition necro…then come back here and report how often this “22% potential” is realized.

and you might want to realise who you are talking to like that xD
And just saying, when i play necro i have pretty much perma bleed, perma poison, perma weakness and perma chill up, thats 4 conditions from me already, so 8%.
And the necro has much more pressure from his conditions than thief so ofcourse the +% dmg trait is different….

First of all, it doesn’t matter to me who wrote the post. He was off-base using the the “22% potential” as an argument as to why the trait is good, so I pointed it out.

And guess what? The guy you’re brown nosing agreed with me in the post immediately following mine. He then went on to better clarify his overall point, and I have nothing more to argue with him.

However, since you are still stuck on this talent and claiming perma 4 conditions, please post a link to your stream and/or videos evidencing this.

I’m sure you’re a legend in your own mind and hero to all necros, but let me point something out to you that you obviously don’t know.

You claimed “a necro has much more pressure from his conditions than thief so of course the +% dmg trait is different”

Well…here’s a newsflash for you…the damage of Target the Weak applies only to direct damage NOT condition damage.

Sorry buddy…but maybe it is YOU who should watch who you talk to on this forum.

And guess what? The guy you’re brown nosing agreed with me in the post immediately following mine. He then went on to better clarify his overall point, and I have nothing more to argue with him.

i never agreed with him….

However, since you are still stuck on this talent and claiming perma 4 conditions, please post a link to your stream and/or videos evidencing this.

learn to play necro

I’m sure you’re a legend in your own mind and hero to all necros, but let me point something out to you that you obviously don’t know.

You claimed “a necro has much more pressure from his conditions than thief so of course the +% dmg trait is different”

Well…here’s a newsflash for you…the damage of Target the Weak applies only to direct damage NOT condition damage.

noone with half a brain ever thought that it would do something to condition dmg, but necro already deals more damage with his conditions than thief does, so the direct dmg increase isnt as high, just use your brain.

Normally u got 5sec chill on 15sec cd (Dark Path) and 4 sec chill on 20sec cd (chillblains) what possible way u can perma chill some1, even a golem?? and he dont clean cond…

Normally u got 5sec chill on 15sec cd (Dark Path) and 4 sec chill on 20sec cd (chillblains) what possible way u can perma chill some1, even a golem?? and he dont clean cond…

You have +50% condi duration if you want and another 5 sec chill from the spinal shivers trait, + you dont 1v1 anyone so targets shouldnt stay alive for a long time. And condi remove is last in first out and you keep stacking bleeds and poison that will always get removed before teh chill if the remove is not timed correctly.

you can’t perma chill with that, stick to reality please.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Look, the big problem for necros is the range of conditions we have isnt sufficient. No burning, no confusion, less poison than some other classes, not a great deal of vuln on good weapons, lack of immobs on condi weapons. This means that all those ‘cure condition’ traits and skills (shouts, cantrips) always seem to wipe their condis.

Necro still has good stuff. Fear is good. Corrupt boon is amazing, signet res is good, consume conditions is good.

The new condition – if it is powerful and not on a huge cd (under 30 seconds) will help A LOT potentially.

Exactly.

I hope they make it a counter to Condition cleanses, for example:
- Daze, if you attempt to clear the new condition.
- Self-harm on heal like Poison + Confusion in one.
- Basic dispell protection for Bleeds (uncleansable bleeds while new condition is applied).
- A debuff to Boon effectiveness when condition is applied.

Besides, Necro is a raw stats class, we scale well with large amounts of Vitality, for example. In contrast with the Guardian kittenlies on boons to function and scales better with Healing Power through Regeneration.
I’d say if Life Stealth would scale with Toughness or we had a functional trait to make it scale with Crit we could stay alive better as was intended.

Kravick.4906:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

nicodemus.3812:

Death Shorud #2 was ground targeted!?! Bring that back imo. Would love to have some real mobility.

I’ve been playing Guild Wars 2 since beta, always mained a Necromancer and that change was for better. That skill was ridicously OP back in those days, period.

Anyway, I think if they make the claw travel a bit faster we will notice a nice improve on mobility in general

How? How on earth was it OP? It functioned no different than the elementalist, mesmer, and thief versions, and in the case of thieves, they have multiple teleports like that and one of them has no cool down. If its not OP on elementalists, mesmers, and thieves, how on earth is it OP on a necro?

Just read this whole and i think theres something theyre forgeting about our history:

1.) Its been sad necro could win a 1v4. But back then most people did not have a clue how to play. weak builds and bad play/skill rotations could make those 1v4 into a todays effective 1v2

2.) DS#2 -mobility
before: a true placable teleport, on a low CD *dont know the exact numbers
now: gimmicky gap closer, effective 300 range close , 15s (12s trait), 3/4 cast

While before it was certainly too much mobility, The teleport could be well balanced:
higher CD , not insta-cast to prevent stunbreak, maybe a placable trait like wells…

3.) All other ridiculous OP stuff (100% stability, full cleanses, fast LF gain, slow LF loss…)
Were not asking for unfair changes, but some small/medium improvements would be realy welcome =)

Flumek.9043:

Kravick.4906:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

nicodemus.3812:

Death Shorud #2 was ground targeted!?! Bring that back imo. Would love to have some real mobility.

I’ve been playing Guild Wars 2 since beta, always mained a Necromancer and that change was for better. That skill was ridicously OP back in those days, period.

Anyway, I think if they make the claw travel a bit faster we will notice a nice improve on mobility in general

How? How on earth was it OP? It functioned no different than the elementalist, mesmer, and thief versions, and in the case of thieves, they have multiple teleports like that and one of them has no cool down. If its not OP on elementalists, mesmers, and thieves, how on earth is it OP on a necro?

Just read this whole and i think theres something theyre forgeting about our history:

1.) Its been sad necro could win a 1v4. But back then most people did not have a clue how to play. weak builds and bad play/skill rotations could make those 1v4 into a todays effective 1v2

2.) DS#2 -mobility
before: a true placable teleport, on a low CD *dont know the exact numbers
now: gimmicky gap closer, effective 300 range close , 15s (12s trait), 3/4 cast

While before it was certainly too much mobility, The teleport could be well balanced:
higher CD , not insta-cast to prevent stunbreak, maybe a placable trait like wells…

3.) All other ridiculous OP stuff (100% stability, full cleanses, fast LF gain, slow LF loss…)
Were not asking for unfair changes, but some small/medium improvements would be realy welcome =)

all in all:
-quick full nerf before release
-slow (each 3 months) buffs to fix the mess

vicious.5683:

all in all:
-quick full nerf before release
-slow (each 3 months) buffs to fix the mess

They haven’t even been doing that. The only thing they’ve out right buffed was Axe #2 twice by 10% each (axe as a whole still sucks VERY badly), which put that one skill back to what it was in beta. Everything else has just been tool tip and minor bug fixes.

and awesome water combat skills!

I don’t see a need to quote them on everything, but I’m in full support of Iceflame and Kravick in this thread.

Roe.3679:

I don’t see a need to quote them on everything, but I’m in full support of Iceflame and Kravick in this thread.

^ This. I also support them and ANet should totally read their posts, they are right and they explain so well our problems and its reasons.

I had originally posted this in suggestions before this thread popped up where it was promptly ignored. I still think that trait re-work coupled with a touch more condition variety would be the fastest way to bring Necro up to snuff, so here are my thoughts on some different ways to improve the trait trees. I have re-thought some of them since the original post. Warning: Wall of Text incoming

There are a number of reasons why Necromancer falls short of balance currently. Shroud #5 will be a start if we ever see it, but it won’t be enough on its own, and if it is, then it will be a bad, gimmicky crutch. Weapons, Traits, Utilities and Mechanics (see life stealing) all need minor tweaks to make this profession right. This is a compilation of suggestions specific to traitlines that would help bring them closer to a level playing field. Note: I am not suggesting that ALL of these should be implemented (as it would make necromancer grossly overpowered), but I think that picking and choosing some of them would be a good way to start.

I’d love to hear the thoughts of other tPvP players on some of these. I have split the post by trait line due to length constraints.

Spite – This line is generally OK and remotely comparable to what others have available, but could use tweaks.

*Siphoned Power –
Current: Gain Might when hit under 25%
Change to: Gain 3x Might for 10s when you activate a channelled skill
Wouldn’t be usable for condi necros, but something like this would make a direct damage necro stronger. Since base damage on pretty much all of the necro weapons sucks it would make it an option to go all in on direct damage, might stack and have a burst that can actually kill someone occasionally without having to hope they stand in your wells.

*Combine Signet Mastery and Signet Power as a Master level trait
Seems obvious why you would do this. The CD’s on all of the signets are terrible, neither trait is really used often (on rare occasion I have seen Mastery for the faster rez CD). I still don’t think you would see anyone take it, but at least it would have a chance to make it into some kind of a niche build (perhaps an odd might stacking terror build).

*Spiteful Spirit – bump Retaliation to 5s (currently 3s)
This trait is already good, but punishing attackers seems a reasonable thing to give necro more of since they can’t escape them.

*Fix the bugs on Spiteful Talisman already

*NEW Adept Tier Major Trait (replacing Signet Mastery)– Grizzly Reaper – When you remove/corrupt a boon target foe is knocked back for 100 units
Necromancer has no knockbacks or stuns. Fear is a poor substitute, and in a game where standing in a circle is the primary objective these things carry tremendous value. Due to the long CD’s on CB and WoC and the inability to land Focus #5 reliably I don’t see where this would be a problem. Plus it would really irritate a boon stacking bunker to lose 5 boons and get knocked back almost as far as a banish. This may be a bit much as a 10 pt trait, so perhaps put it at 20 and the signet trait at 10.

Curses- This line is completely illogical as it stands now and needs lots of changes to give it reasonable synergy.

*Withering Precision – increase Weakness duration to 5s
3s is just too short to be reliable. As a GM Major this should be a pretty reliable perma weakness. This could potentially be part of the answer to A) giving bleed stacks more reliable cover and putting builds with perma-vigor on a more even playing field with necro.

*Target the Weak – Change to 3% crit chance for each condition on target foe
Synergizes with the precision that is already part of the line. Plenty of classes have +crit % traits far earlier in their traits than 25 pts with more consistent, higher base level effects. A trait like this could make a precisioncrit damage+power ammy necro attractive by making shroud stomps accessible without sacrificing too much DPS while also being useful to condi necro’s to get them more sigil procs that they certainly could use.

*Combine Focused Rituals with Ritual Mastery (in Blood tree)
It makes absolutely no sense to have a well trait in Curses, and wells have too many traits that are too spread out. Consolidate.

*NEW Master tier trait – Sanguine Precision, +5% critical chance against bleeding foes
Would have stacking issues if the above version of Target the Weak were to be implemented, but this is a logical fit in the tree that would work well in both condition and direct damage builds. Seems to make a lot of sense to me.

*Combine Spectral Attunement with Spectral Mastery (in Reaping tree)
So there is a trait in the Malice/Precision tree that generates Life Force? How is that? Spectrals include no conditions that are DoTs (no benefit from Malice) and no skills that actually hit for Direct Damage and therefore cannot crit. This is a really dumb place for Spectral Attunement.

*NEW Master Tier Trait – Malicious Retort, When disabled you gain Chaos Armor for 5s (20s cd)
Secksy on a Necro. More condition variety. Yes, Please, thanks. Gives another way to punish attackers, specifically those attacking the lack of good stun breaks. I really like this one. Terror builds wouldn’t use it since Reaper’s Protection and the rune fear would mitigate its usefulness, but straight condi builds would love it.

*Reaper’s Precision – increase proc to 50%
Condi builds struggle to generate LF. This would be a huge boost to the Rabid ammy builds. You could probably make it proc 66% without being OP, but a baby-steps approach is ok. This is another one that I really like.

*Weakening Shroud – decrease CD to 10s
If you remove the ICD then pairing it with Near to Death would be a bit overboard, but giving AoE perma-weakness and more bleeds to a Necro that is sacrificing their only sustain tool by shroud dancing seems a pretty suitable risk/reward ratio. It would also make it more reasonable to put something with scepter besides the OH Dagger that everyone is pigeon-holed into right now.

*Barbed Precision – increase bleed to 2s. (Everyone else gets longer bleeds on their traits)
With 100% bleed duration increase it is still only a 4s bleed. Not a big deal. It could open up some interesting melee condi build applications (Think high crit rate dagger) that would give a really interesting playstyle viability.

Death Magic- This line is awful at the top end if you aren’t an MM, and required at the low end for everyone wielding a staff. Silly.

*Death Nova – Add Direct Damage that scales with Power on a small AoE (250 or so base)
The 3s poison field from the only thing minions are good at (dieing) isn’t bad, but it doesn’t seem like enough to warrant GM Major status.

*Death Shiver – Keep as is (AoE vuln while in shroud), but also add Chill for 3s per tick
This would give another inventive way for condi Necros to cover their bleed stacks. The cost of burning LF is a steep one, but covering all that stuff you just epidemic’d would be totally worth it.

*Spiteful Vigor –
Current: Gain Retaliation when you heal
Change to: Gain Retaliation and Vigor for 7s when you heal
Heals are all long CD for Necro. Supposing that you are spamming a traited Blood Fiend/Taste of Death (which would get you killed) you still aren’t getting 50% vigor uptime. Can’t see why this would cause an issue.

*Protection of the Horde –
Current: +20 Toughness for each minion
Change to: When you apply regeneration to an ally you also grant Aegis for 2s
No blocks on weapons or utilities, so I don’t see why this would be too awful for Necromancer to have. The AoE Aegis-ing from Mark of Blood might be a bit too much in terms of team fight utility, so I don’t like it, but it is the best thought I had. The only thing for sure is that the current iteration of this trait sucks. If you aren’t an MM it is less than useless. The minors in this line should not be married to minion playstyle, because it limits the ability to make viable builds with toughness/boon duration traits.

*Reanimator – Make it an Adept Major so we can choose not to take it until Jagged’s are actually useful or at all. That is all.

*Staff Mastery –
Current: Staff Skills Rechage 20% faster
Change to: Staff Skills Rechage 20% faster and Necrotic Grasp has 2x travel speed
A staff #1 that occasionally hits would be such a nice thing. This would get play if the Greater Marks size becomes default. Note: I don’t like the concept of standard skills being unblockable in general, so eliminating the unblockable nature of marks (which still do get blocked occasionally, although it is really hard to repro) doesn’t seem like a bad thing to me.

*Ritual of Protection –
Current: Wells apply Protection (3s) to allies in the area when cast
Change to: Wells apply protection for 1s per tick on allies in well
This is probably too much Protection they way I have written it due to the long duration of WoB and the possibility of duration extending runes, but at least 5s on cast seems more reasonable than the current trait.

*Greater Marks – Remove. Staff should default to greater marks (but not unblockable).

*Dark Armor –
Current:400 armor while chanelling (scales with level)
Change to: :400 armor while chanelling and you steal life from foes who strike you
Vampiric procs suck right now, but if made to scale appropriately in the future this could actually be useful.

*NEW Adept Minor trait – Tormentor’s Endurance, gain vigor for 5s when entering Death Shroud
50% up time on Vigor in exchange for giving up the damage mitigation of shroud until off CD seems to make sense, and we could finally be rid of the God awful Reanimator.

Blood Magic- Can’t really do much with this until they make leeching scale properly with healing and/or power, but these seem to be no brainers

*Blood to Power –
Current: Deal 5% more damage when health is over 90%
Change to: Deal +10% damage when over 90%
5% is not enough, especially if you are this deep in a Vitality/Compassion tree and have no stealth. This would probably proc. less than 10% of the time, meaning it is an effective damage increase of less than 1%. Seems ok to me.

*Combine Quickening Thirst and Dagger Mastery (Master Tier)
Simple, and logical, and might actually make a good trait in what is currently a bad line.

*Blood Thirst – Siphoning is 50% more effective and heals you while in Death Shroud
LOVE this idea. Being able to life steal while in shroud at the cost of a trait seems like a really solid way to make the Blood line remotely acceptable.

*NEW Adept Tier Major – Rending Consumption, When you remove or corrupt a boon you lose a condition
Too many cleanses for necro are already reliant on hitting a foe, but if there are enough ways to make that happen, then it is less of a liability.

*Mark of Evasion – Remove ICD
Necro already has less dodge than anyone else, and the finisher was already nerfed out of this. The other “on Dodgeroll” heal type traits are far better than this one at present. Removing the ICD would still not make this better than those and the necro still has fewer opportunities to dodge than anyone else.

Soul Reaping – At the low end the traits are all just bad. The Grand Master Majors are about right though.

*Strength of Undeath –
Current: +5% damage if over 50% LF
Change to: +10% damage if you have over 50% life force
I thought maybe 15%, since keeping a necro under 50% LF isn’t that big of a chore for opponents, but 10% is probably more balanced. 5% is again just too low for the amount of investment there.

*Decaying Swarm – Delete
With no lifesteal on swarm anymore (unless traited in Blood) this is less than useless. The last place you want to be at low health is close enough for swarm to hit anything, and the cripple it applies isn’t going to save you.

*NEW Master Tier Major – Shrouded Repulsion, Doom affects target and all foes within 150 unit radius
Since stun breakers for the profession are trash how about a PBAoE CC that can save your hide. I like it. Multiple uses, definitely promotes skilled play by making you pick your spots. It makes you choose between Master of Terror, Soul Marks and this trait as well, so it is in a really good spot.

*Speed of Shadows –
Current: Move 15% faster in Shroud (basically makes you move normal speed)
Change to: Move 50% faster while in Death Shroud
At 100% LF you can’t spend very long in shroud, and if you burn it all up trying to run, then you aren’t going to live long when you get where you are going. 50% seems like a lot, but it only gives necro a possible way to avoid engagements that are unfavorable. It would not be enough to give them escapability, because shroud won’t buy you more than 5s when under fire, and you won’t be able to create enough distance in that time.

*Vital Persistence – Life force does not degenerate in Death Shroud
This is the alternative to not having any dodges or blocks. Necro needs one or the other, and frankly I think that the dodges/blocks/evades would be more balanced, but sustainability can’t get to par without either this or that.

*Gluttony (change name to “Glutton for Punishment”) – Gain 10% life force when entering combat
You want an attrition class? Here you go. Never be locked out of Shroud completely at the start of an engagement again. 10% doesn’t buy you any time, but it might be just enough to save your hide if you time it perfectly.

Come on guys!Why whine?Do what i did,i made another class after playing necro since start.I really love necros in all games i played but in this one is da weakest!I made a mesmer and gave it a try…First thoughts?

Insane mobility,excellent stun breakers,weapons skills that also work as stun breakers(example:staff2).

Plentyfull invulnerability,stealth,u can kite indefinetely due to none can tell diference between u and clones and when they do they re prolly dead :P

Embarrasing low cooldowns!*

Insane damage.

Access to many boons,many viable builds,best on 1v1 and many more that i m still working on to find out cause i m still newbie mesmer!

Synopsis:What necro has of all this? *****0***** Nothing indeed,its just a joke,make a mesmer or any other class for PvP and have a necro only for PvE autoatk epidemic cond build.Its still fun u know,u just need to deal with it cause nothin’s gonna change! :P

(Not even vigor….fail)

Everything Myrmidian Eudoros.4671 said, yes please, just fix that stuff that way.
Not much else to say on this topic.

cuge.5398:

Everything Myrmidian Eudoros.4671 said, yes please, just fix that stuff that way.
Not much else to say on this topic.

While I agree with that those posts are a perfect analysis of our trait lines and have some good ideas, I think if they implement all those changes we will become OP.
Anyway, they can implement some of them at least and look how it works.

In conclussion, another user to take in account for improve Necromancer: ArenaNet’s devs should totally read Myrmidian Eudoros, Iceflame and Kravick posts to get some ideas about what isn’t working and what can be done to fix that.

flow.6043:

Kravick.4906:

flow.6043:

Tenderly.7019:

Increasing our fears from 1 second to 2 second can go a long way.

With that change a terror build would have a standard 3-4 second fear on every fear skill. That’s like ~5k damage for fear alone.

Why would that be a problem? You do realize that the other classes are capable of doing that much and more with their skills in the form of direct damage, right? AKA, instantly? 5k damage over 4 seconds is a far cry from 5k instant, and would only be achievable with condition builds. Necromancers have zero burst capability as a condition build, so that 5k damage wouldn’t even be followed up with anything major.

I remember some where that ANet said that they want condition damage to be on par with direct damage. Well, without burning, necromancers are not on par with that ideal.

True.
But, this would be 5k plus all other conditions and direct damage you can pull off during that time. So this one fear un-stun-breaked might really do 7-10k. Now this is pretty devastating for some classes who have less than 20k hp. That means they need to burn a stun break for every fear to stay in the fight at all. And since you could queue a corrupted stability – Reaper’s Mark – Doom, you could force another player into this chain or make him burn all his defensive skills. This would be like a thief being able to use Basilisk Venom 3 times in a row.

Then again… a thief can finish you with a few crits in a couple of seconds, so I guess it wouldn’t be that big of a deal.

By the way there wont be 5k damage at all.
1. You need 20 in Soul Reaping for Master of Terror(50% fear Duration)
2. You need 30 in Spite for 30% fear Duration.
3. You need other 20% fear Duration from runes. (Mean lots C/V/T loss)
After all above your fear is 4s and the damage is around 800/s .
4s fear = 3.2K damage = one clone’s shatter damage( shatter build have 4 clones).

But I agree, 4s CC is too long.
What Anet should do:
Make fear becom terror and terror is cc skill no long effect by conditon Duration.

Terror:
Fear becomer Terror deals damage, and it deals an additional 50% damage if the target has another condition on them.

Master of Terror:
Fear you inflict lasts 50% longer. Terror you inflict last 1 second longer.

Wow, that’s quite the impressive list, Eudoros.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

I think if they implement all those changes we will become OP.

Some of the traits maybe. Like aoe aegis for 2s every 4,75s. With some +boon duration, 2 necros could perma-aegis a whole group.

You wouldn’t be able to use all of the traits in one build though. Most of his suggestions are buffs to traits that no one would take as they are now. So in the first place this might create more build diversity.

One other thing I disagree on is: remove “marks become unblockable” completely. You are hugely undervaluing this feature. Even the “occasional” block is pretty devastating, considering how long the CDs are.
I can see why this wouldn’t be standard along with a greater mark size, but at least make it a part of Staff Mastery then. Or make it a minor trait.

Tisler.6297:

By the way there wont be 5k damage at all.
1. You need 20 in Soul Reaping for Master of Terror(50% fear Duration)
2. You need 30 in Spite for 30% fear Duration.
3. You need other 20% fear Duration from runes. (Mean lots C/V/T loss)
After all above your fear is 4s and the damage is around 800/s .
4s fear = 3.2K damage = one clone’s shatter damage( shatter build have 4 clones).

Yeah you’re right. I was thinking WvW when I wrote this. With pizza, giver’s weapons, more runes… it’s a lot easier there to max your fear duration and have a huge amount of cond dmg.

Edit: On second thought, why only 800? With traits 30/20/0/0/20, a regular cond dmg amulet, rune of the necro. You’d still have ~1300 condition damage, with the 50% bonus when a condition is on your target, that should give you 1,1k per tick.
Either way, in WvW it’s much more powerful.

just from the top of my head…curses GM trait that gives each condition you apply a % chance to not be cleansed. very niche. very necro…y.

as for DS#5, maybe make it a DoT that either:
a.works like Torment from a certain raven loving pegleg, increasing all incoming damage to target by X%.
b.works like UA from another game, but instead of a silence or daze, pops an epidemic before the main targets condis are removed.

I dunno, just a couple of thoughts I had

Oldbugga.7029:

Personal opinion.

As an ex-systems analyst/auditor (among many other things) I have learned that you should not try to design the basis of any system around outlier low probability results.Outliers need to be accepted as low frequency and seen as such and the circumstances that caused them should be addressed specifically…not only through restricting the activity itself (eg is 2 CBs and 2 epidemics produce an outlier you potentially place a DR on them WHEN USED CLOSELY TOGETHER….NOT generally or in different circumstances). It is almost impossible to incorporate system balance to equitably deal with those improbable outliers and the run-of-the mill results that will overwhelmingly be more likely outcomes.

In many of the arguments here, and as seen by the hesitancy by the devs to even contemplate the occasional outliers in out abilities, reasonable suggestions for the bulk of the potential gameplay suggestions are being too readily dismissed by the slight probability that once in a while the planets will line up and some exceptional outcome is possible…occasionally and NOT consistantly.

I think for balancing and skills development the devs should not be focussing just on the outlier results as reasons to limit abilities but should also consider the likelihood of such aberrations and address that as the balancing factor.

Also, Necro players are not some unique breed of game player. I don’t think “blaming the players” for adopting the “cookie cutter” builds because they work is helping anyone’s cause. Other professions are doing exactly the same and it is the comparitive results that are causing players to be gun shy in trying newer builds which usually have proven to be less effective. I trust more the fact that the competively focussed players will chose the most effective builds rather than hypothesizing that the reason for that choice is that they are lazy or stubborn or reluctant to change. I don’t think the players are at fault for expressing their disatisfaction at the poorer necro performance when adopting the same build strategies as any other profession and achieving inferior results.

lol good post but necro used to be overpowered in beta or something like that, so…. necro should be a weak class.

Also many devs have been seen playing guardians more then other classes and a heck of alot more then Necros, that should answer all question for anyone that plays a necro as to why corrupt boon can be blocked flat out fails alot and is on a huge cooldown.

I like what Jonathan Sharp said in the SOAC show today. He directly referenced the mobility issue. Considering the damage issue (lack of burning) is likely being fixed through a dark DOT, I’m confident about where the necromancer is going in the next month or so.

Lopez.7369:

I like what Jonathan Sharp said in the SOAC show today. He directly referenced the mobility issue. Considering the damage issue (lack of burning) is likely being fixed through a dark DOT, I’m confident about where the necromancer is going in the next month or so.

Being confident about a future you don’t know of is a very brave thing to do that opens up room for a lot of disappointment. Getting a new condition on DS5 could probably make condi necro better somehow but if not much else is done and other classes gain access to it then whoala, other classes just became better after being good while necro got better after being bad. This kinda evens it out and we are back to where we are now unless necro actually has good and reliable or even the best access to it or something.

A new condition on DS5 that will almost certainly be both accessibly to other professions and on a long CD is unlikely to make a real difference.

Sustainability and DPS both need to be addressed, and one infrequent condition application is unlikely to fix either.

The new condition won’t fix the underlying problem here. That necromancers are just really bad at being an attrition class currently. Adding one ability isn’t going to fix this problem. We need more than a simple skill addition to bring us up to par with the other bunker builds in this game. ANet is very slow at fixing things (if they even fix the problem at all, GW1 had tons of things that were never addressed), so people putting all their faith in this one skill are going to be seriously disappointed I think.

Kravick.4906:

The new condition won’t fix the underlying problem here. That necromancers are just really bad at being an attrition class currently. Adding one ability isn’t going to fix this problem. We need more than a simple skill addition to bring us up to par with the other bunker builds in this game. ANet is very slow at fixing things (if they even fix the problem at all, GW1 had tons of things that were never addressed), so people putting all their faith in this one skill are going to be seriously disappointed I think.

^This.

What Necros need is mobility and damage mitigation on par with other classes.
We already have less burst( which is on a long cooldown) the more HP should be the tradeoff for that.
Still having less damage mitigation on top makes us less meaningful than other classes when looking at the full package.
This, of course, besides the fact that condition damage is a separate mess of it’s own that someone needs to fix.

I find it hilarious that Anet is (attempting to) fine tune balance in the game, so it can go ESPORTZ… while leaving a few dozen specs as absolute trash… which will throw all of that balancing off after they slowly get tweaked to ‘viable’…

To boot, they’re fine tuning balance in a game few people play…
That’s something to do AFTER you have a population and want to make them go more competitive… not before…
Changing what people left for is what you do to get a playerbase back… not fine tune what few people want to play…

Anyways.
I wish a retal/minion build is possible.
Like blast finishing in the light field for aoe retal on all your cohorts, it’d be an entertaining spec with a dozen tradeoffs for most moves… but yeah, not remotely viable.

I have to admit, necros have the most unappealing and misordered traits in the game. As a thief or mesmer, I constantly have second thoughts because they have so many amusing and interesting traits that are not as situational and as misplaced as the necro ones.
And the same can be said about weapons, other classes have a lot more viable and fun weapons. For necro, axe is just garbage, lack AOE, short range, weak damage. Dagger mainhand just completely feels like it was made for wells. It doesn’t work with much else. Focus is just not enough, the #4 ability could be good, but it doesn’t bounce enough, and if it misses a single time, the major potential of it is lost.

still better then warrior

Lighter.5631:

still better then warrior

In sPvP environment, you are right maybe. But in general, warrior is much better than necro, just look at PvE, they are the gods there.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

Lighter.5631:

still better then warrior

In sPvP environment, you are right maybe. But in general, warrior is much better than necro, just look at PvE, they are the gods there.

No, Guardians are gods there.
Warriors are….well….gods in cof1