Guild Wars 2

Incurafy.6329:

Lol @ this thread.

Next months QQ agenda: Thieves exist, please delete them.

I kind of agree with this, gw1 assassins where much better imo :p

Daecollo.9578:

Ranger, To much cleanse evade and swoop!
Elementalist, To much cleanse evade and RtL!
Guardian, To much cleanse evade and heals!

You can remove RTL now, or at least half of it :p

Anyway, as far as the actual thread is concerned;

I can understand and kind of agree with the not fun to fight thieves comment, but they’re definitely not OP. They don’t have too much evading (unless they’re underwater) because the evade ability on skills are short and only for part of the activation. It’s true that conditions aren’t a good counter to stealth/thieves, but they don’t have more condition removal than most classes either.

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

s/d is the most confusing build in the game for an enemy to play against if specced/utilities are right… 100% nothing more confusing than dozens of teleports with dozens of invis and several dazes and a couple doesnt evades and a heal every 15 secs with dozens of blinds…..although dmg is average its very hard to defend against a professional s/d player which takes many months of mastering…… can be proven. or do u have a counterpoint which example of build/class? plz do go on. dont just say well if u believe it thats nice….then i respond “well if u dont im sorry for your lack of experience” then we get nowhere like 6th graders arguing if somebody is out in dodgeball. come correct. nothign wrong with debating or “opinionizing” .

Yes. You are right. The S/D skillcap is higher compared to other thief’s builds. BUT, BUT, this doesn’t mean that evades aren’t too much. They should be toned down a bit to the point that you can’t afford to spam them, but you can be extremely effective if you time them correctly. Right now, you can just spam you evades getting nice results.

Also, Infiltrator’s Strike should be looked into. No-cooldown stunbreaker is insane, seriously.

Technically, it’s a 5 init stun breaker that needs to be precast 15s in advance or it’s not available to use.

If we are in stealth we can’t cap. You could just stand inside the circle and /laugh at us.

And win the tournament, of course.

You guys are overreacting. Most people are complaining about aspects of sword dagger that existed pre-patch. Where were the calls for nerfs then?

sorrow.2364:

Travlane.5948:

s/d is the most confusing build in the game for an enemy to play against if specced/utilities are right… 100% nothing more confusing than dozens of teleports with dozens of invis and several dazes and a couple doesnt evades and a heal every 15 secs with dozens of blinds…..although dmg is average its very hard to defend against a professional s/d player which takes many months of mastering…… can be proven. or do u have a counterpoint which example of build/class? plz do go on. dont just say well if u believe it thats nice….then i respond “well if u dont im sorry for your lack of experience” then we get nowhere like 6th graders arguing if somebody is out in dodgeball. come correct. nothign wrong with debating or “opinionizing” .

Yes. You are right. The S/D skillcap is higher compared to other thief’s builds. BUT, BUT, this doesn’t mean that evades aren’t too much. They should be toned down a bit to the point that you can’t afford to spam them, but you can be extremely effective if you time them correctly. Right now, you can just spam you evades getting nice results.

Also, Infiltrator’s Strike should be looked into. No-cooldown stunbreaker is insane, seriously.

People trying to nerf the God skill now?
Be gone.
Odd how people are complaing about things S/D has always had.
It had More evades before the patch has hit just as hard.
The only difference is most people couldn’t land FS, Mug was nerfed and it didn’t steal the boons. Outside of small changes its the same it’s always been (excusing unblockable 2nd hit)

ensoriki.5789:

People trying to nerf the God skill now?
Be gone.
Odd how people are complaing about things S/D has always had.
It had More evades before the patch has hit just as hard.
The only difference is most people couldn’t land FS, Mug was nerfed and it didn’t steal the boons. Outside of small changes its the same it’s always been (excusing unblockable 2nd hit)

The reason is simple.
Before S/D got buffed and Mug nerfed, nearly no thief ran that build simply because there was no need to use an underperforming (compared to the thief average, of course) build.

Infiltrator’s Strike has always been too good. But now that it is on the same bar of the new FS and people are running only that, it is simply too much, that’s it. S/D did not need a buff, the overperforming builds needed a nerf so the other build can rise. This is what was happening in the last period with D/P and S/D. Now they have buffed S/D to annoy boon-bunkers a bit more, while, essentialy there was no real need to do so.

The fact that I’m saying an opinion now about IS and evades does not mean that I did not think that before the patch. Now, these “small” (but they aren’t that small, after all) changes hit the whole set, not only a single skill. You have to see the whole picture, not the single skill change.

Travlane.5948:

Xom.9264:

Only a bad thief loses to a necro no matter how good the necro is. Thief is a faceroll easy to play class like Mesmer they should beat you and if they dont they are truly bad. The best you can do against a good thief with that build is delay the death that’s coming.

Its a bad matchup necro marks just dont have what it takes to drop a thief thats not pure glass, it would help if Anet puts greater marks with faster recharge in one triat.

Dont stress it you bring more to small scale fights. Yes i agree its a pain fighting a thief same with mesmer its not about skill its about the amount of fighting with the GUI you have to do constantly, you fight the GUI more then the class.

Stupid design.

thieves and d/d eles are the hardest to play…..play well at that. mesmers are easy. tell u what. give me 3 choices of class to pick. ill play it and beat you one on one atleast half thetime. all i have truly mastered is thief. so u will ahve the advantage. then tell me how easy it is.

Thieves are easy to play have a very low skill cap, I would put mesmer a little above them on taking skill to play but not by much.

You might take a node but drop me on a thief, never, unless I chose to let you kill me, the class has a million reset/leave the area skills. The topic of the thread as i understood it was not really about power level but about stupid design, at least that’s the way i took it.

Xom.9264:

Travlane.5948:

Xom.9264:

Only a bad thief loses to a necro no matter how good the necro is. Thief is a faceroll easy to play class like Mesmer they should beat you and if they dont they are truly bad. The best you can do against a good thief with that build is delay the death that’s coming.

Its a bad matchup necro marks just dont have what it takes to drop a thief thats not pure glass, it would help if Anet puts greater marks with faster recharge in one triat.

Dont stress it you bring more to small scale fights. Yes i agree its a pain fighting a thief same with mesmer its not about skill its about the amount of fighting with the GUI you have to do constantly, you fight the GUI more then the class.

Stupid design.

thieves and d/d eles are the hardest to play…..play well at that. mesmers are easy. tell u what. give me 3 choices of class to pick. ill play it and beat you one on one atleast half thetime. all i have truly mastered is thief. so u will ahve the advantage. then tell me how easy it is.

Thieves are easy to play have a very low skill cap, I would put mesmer a little above them on taking skill to play but not by much.

You would never beat me on a thief, you might take a node but drop me never, unless I chose to let you kill me, the class has a million reset/leave the area skills. The topic of the thread as i understood it was not really about power level but about stupid design, at least that’s the way i took it.

So who cares about thief power level, let’s nerf even the most useless build out there ?

i can play the same game, won’t you see ?

I’m annoyed by guardians who never die
I’m annoyed by eles who never die and spam AoE crap on the point
I’m annoted by rangers who never die yet have mini warrior pets
I’m annoyed by necros with all dem conditions and fears and AoE crap
I’m annoyed by engies adn dem granades

I’m not annoyed by wars, i like them.

Stealth/rogue classes tend to have high damage and a great opening attack. The down side was weaker defense and it was for the most part a ALL IN type of class.

So planning mattered (DAoC SB, and Melee ranger, WoW rogue) Anet made something new a class without prema stealth but with a million stealth resets and stealth that does not break on damage.

Its faceroll its stupid design, I gave it a chance as i try to all new things. I would be ok with old damage of a thief if it did not come with a ton of resets and unbreakable stealth. This is actually the first MMO I have ever played my main is not a stealth class… because in this game thiefs are faceroll low skill cap garbage that will forever be OP or UP because of the massive amount of resets and movement built into the class.

Making stealth unbreakable lowers the skill cap for a stealth class a huge amount, so something must be weaker damage or movement/get away skills.

Xom.9264:

Stealth/rogue classes tend to have high damage and a great opening attack. The down side was weaker defense and it was for the most part a ALL IN type of class.

So planning mattered (DAoC SB, and Melee ranger, WoW rogue) Anet made something new a class without prema stealth but with a million stealth resets and stealth that does not break on damage.

Making stealth unbreakable lowers the skill cap for a stealth class a huge amount, so something must be weaker damage or movement/get away skills.

+1

I have never played stealth classes myself as they have never fit my personal style of play. Having said that (or in this case, typed it), I have fought against stealth classes since my early days of Dark Age of Camelot and from the many gank-fests I experienced on the battlefields of the Old and New Frontiers, I do know that the ability to attack, fight, and kill someone without any personal risk to yourself does have a very high appeal to many people.

Thieves in Guild Wars 2 actually have three class mechanics at their disposal and not just the two that Arenanet asserts they do. They have steal, the initiative system, and stealth. And while it is true that all the other professions can obtain limited amounts of stealth from skills and combinations, only thieves have nearly unlimited access to stealth from a variety of skills and mechanics.

Stealth is a VERY powerful mechanic in an MMORPG. Many games have had their try at balancing the mechanic, but none have made it as powerful as it is in Guild Wars 2 and that, I believe, is the heart of the issue with Thieves. In games past (at least the ones I have played, your mileage may vary) stealth was a resource used to attack without warning or to enable a squishy melee class to get in close enough to unleash their attacks of opportunity. It has almost ALWAYS come with a downside or a price to it, such as not being able to attack while stealthed, being able to be knocked out of stealth, or even a small chance for the opponent to detect you while stealthed. Guild Wars 2 has NONE of these downsides or prices to their stealth.

Stealth in Guild Wars 2 actually has benefits to it rather than downsides. Thieves that stealth in Guild Wars 2 can cleanse conditions, heal themselves, gain might, gain initiative, move faster, blind, or gain 100% chance to crit on the next attack. Now granted, they cannot gain ALL of these benefits while stealthed, but still it shows there is no downside or price to pay for using stealth and instead there are HUGE benefits to using it and using it constantly.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that ONLY the Thief can break their own stealth. They don’t even break stealth if they attack and miss!! That’s right, if you dodge that initial attack or you just happen to have a block up when they strike, they get a free “do-over” and don’t break stealth. You cannot even knock them out of stealth by setting them on fire!! The only thing that breaks stealth on a Thief in Guild Wars 2 (other than a timer) is if they attack and actually do damage.

Arenanet was not even kind enough to give players a chance to detect a stealthed Thief. They are impervious to detection means while stealthed. All of the control is on their side with no chance at all for the opponent. NO other MMORPG that I have EVER played has stealth been such a powerful mechanic. When a Thief stealths in Guild Wars 2, they hold all the cards and you as their opponent hold only one: randomly swing or use your skills and hope you hit them. This is a HUGE imbalance and I will never understand why Arenanet thought it would be good idea. Certainly they could have at least LOOKED at some other games and seen how stealth was implemented to see the good and the bad that goes with it. Perhaps there is some marketing information out there that I am not aware of the shows that more people prefer to be able to attack, fight, and kill people without any personal risk to themselves than prefer to actually engage in epic battles and duels with one another. Who knows?!

Sadly, stealth in this game comes equipped with a red cloak with a large letter “S” on it and given how it has been implemented, I don’t really see any way that power is going to be mitigated. Certainly the “revealed” condition is a good start, but again that condition is all on the control of the Thief. They could possibly make stealth break on damage, or at least give us a small chance at detection, but I don’t see them going that way either.

For now, I just remember that when I get ganked by a Thief that if and when I die, it is not due to lack of skill but an imbalance that Arenanet has purposefully implemented in their stealth mechanic. On the other hand, when I do actually kill a Thief, I can also glow with satisfaction that I have beaten the intent of the developers and triumphed where I should not have been allowed to.

\rant off

Thieves got almost no toughness, a very little health pool, and they can barely even get any useful boons. You can get Swiftness, Fury and Might for 10 seconds when you Steal, if you stack 10 in Trickery and choose Thrill of the Crime (#5). You can get 2 seconds of Swiftness on Evade if you stack 5 in Acrobatics. You can get Might whenever you dodge if you stack 10+ in Acrobatics (#2), and you can get Vigor when using a healing skill. You can also get 5 stacks of Might for 5 seconds, if you activate a signet, if you chose this as trait in Critical Strikes. There’s also other traits that grants you some boons, but these have cool downs for 45+ seconds.
Now, many of these traits are ridiculous, if you want a powerful thief, you’ll need to stack critical hit chance, critical hit damage, and power. A powerful thief is a thief that is able to bring something to the team. In tournaments, the thief’s job is to help roaming between points. Let’s say you have a bunker holding close point, and the rest of your team fighting at middle or far point, you’ll often have to run between the close point and where the others are, to assist the team. The bunker at close needs help with dealing damage, whenever an enemy tries to capture the point. So he calls on you, and you’ll try to get there as fast as possible, in order to burst down the enemy before he can escape. However, if the enemy has checked the teams before the game started, he should be aware of the fact that there’s a thief in the game. With this knowledge, he should always be cautious and be prepared for a discrete attack from the thief. A thief often uses Basilisk Venom and Steal as a fight-opener, but this is fully possible to get out of. There’s utilities for every profession that gives you a stun break, which means you can get out of the incoming burst damage from the thief, and escape. Perhaps you’ve used the stun breaker already, when fighting the bunker at the point, but that’s your mistake then. If the thief has failed to burst you down, and you’re still fresh enough to be able to fight 2v1, you can easily take down the thief. His toughness and vitality is limited because he’s a glass cannon spec.
When the thief isn’t helping the bunker at close point, his job is to help the rest of the team. He can be a scout, looking for incoming enemies around the map, or he can simply just help with his Short Bow at a longer range, or burst down the targeted enemy etc. Keep in mind, the thief has to be cautious not to get stunned when bursting, as this will result in a pointless death, or a waste of burst.
This topic is mainly about the Sword/Dagger build, where the OP complaints about how dodgy the thieves are, how many condition removers they got, and how much stealth they got. Now, if you take a look at thieves’ traits, you’ll see that they can remove a condition every 3rd second in stealth. Now, a first off, there’s only 1 condition you’ll remove, which means that it’s pointless against a necromancer (which in this case, the OP is). Secondly, you’ll have to go into stealth, and stay there for 3 seconds, in order for it to apply. Now, what does “going into stealth” cost you? It costs you 6 initiative out of 12 initiative, or 15 if you’ve stacked 15 in Trickery (in trait lines). That’s more than a half / a third of your total initiative. And to do this several times to remove condition after condition? Also, do not forget that there’s a cool down before you can stealth again, after going out of stealth.
When you’re building a Sword/Dagger build, that is supposed to help the team (for example in tournaments), you’ll need to have a lot of damage in it, as well as some mobility. You will most likely not use the trait that can remove conditions. You’ll need some Vigor and Swiftness when you dodge, as you’ll be doing close combat (as that’s the only way for a glass cannon thief to deal with pure damage), and you’ll need some Fury and Might (for example from Thrill of the Crime when you Steal), but the other boons you’ll get from Larcenous Strike (the dual skill of Flanking Strike).

So when a Sword/Dagger thief meets a necromancer in a duel, where both of them are equally skilled in their own professions, the fight will mostly be like this (the thief’s POV):
Basilisk Venom + Infiltrator’s Strike / Steal as a fight-opener, then #1 until the necromancer has some boons up. When boons are up, he’ll be using Flanking Strike and Larcenous Strike to steal the boons, and then go back to #1. Whenever his health is low, or he knows he got to get out of the combat, he’s using Infiltrator’s Strike / Shadow Return to get away from the enemy, as well as curing one condition (in a fight versus a necromancer, one condition is nothing). If he were to spam #2 to cure one condition at a time, he’d be out of initiative in no time.
So the damage from the thief’s side comes from pure hits from the sword. He will barely use Cloak and Dagger, as it drains on the initiative, and it doesn’t give any good Stealth-skill like Backstab in a Dagger/Dagger spec. When it comes to the thief’s utility skills, he’ll probably be using some of these:
Signets, Roll for Initiative, Blinding Powder, Shadow Refuge, Shadowstep, and as healing skill, he’ll probably be using Withdraw because of the 15 seconds cool down instead of 30 seconds, the dodge and the fact that it cures immobilized, chilled and crippled. But these aren’t the conditions that kill you, only slow your movement speed.
So all in all, the thief has to be dodgy, to deal with pure damage, while other professions got boons and toughness + vitality to protect them. They need high damage to be viable, because else they are just pointless, and they need to be mobile in order to be able to roam etc.

The things the OP dislikes are the condition removers, which are not used by most Sword/Dagger players, especially not those who use it in tournaments. He also dislikes their dodging, which is necessary for a thief to do, in order to deal with incoming damage. And he dislikes their teleporting around, which also is something that keeps the profession alive (viable for roaming).
If the thief couldn’t do this when using Sword/Dagger, he’d be the easiest enemy in the game.

Now, I also read some posts about how people fight the GUI more than the opponent itself, as they turn invisible etc. constantly. Well, this is not true. This is more for Dagger/Pistol and Pistol/Dagger builds, as they use a trait that restores 2 initiatives every time they go stealth, so they can stealth more often. So the target doesn’t disappear unless the thief goes stealth (which he doesn’t do often, when using Sword/Dagger). And if he does (which is stupid), you can always check Auto targeting in the Options settings, so when he’s turning visible again, you just have to use the spells, and it automatically hits (range spells).

When I’m playing in the battlegrounds on my thief, I love doing 1v1s against all classes, especially thieves. But the thieves can dodge and stealth so much and I have to struggle so much with my GUI. No, you just have to counter attack them, find out where they will shadows step etc. Simply be a step ahead of them.

Protip: run 0/30/20/20/0 with full zerker/valk/knight gear. That is the build I think the op is talking about. Lots of evades, ridiculous condition cleansing, average damage. All the worthy damage bonuses are in critical strikes traitline. No need for deathly arts.

Jesus Christ the line up of people complaining about thiefs. Gw2guru should make a why thiefs are not op and heres how to l2p video explaining this .

daydream.2938:

Jesus Christ the line up of people complaining about thiefs. Gw2guru should make a why thiefs are not op and heres how to l2p video explaining this .

Hi average Thief player
Are you enjoying your profession?

shimmerless.4560:

I’m not terribly sure where these mythical ‘resetting’ Thieves who can escape any battle are found, or how exactly they’re so much more capable than other classes. I can escape pretty reliably on a Warrior (30+ seconds of Swiftness and 3.5 long-range dashes that don’t require a target, wat).

I think a lot of players forget that stealth is not invulnerability and that Thieves who can move well have to give up in other areas to accomplish this (mspeed in stealth takes up a trait, mspeed Signet takes up a util slot, a metric ton of Init gets blown on Shortbow #5, etc.)

1. Speed signet is not what gives thieves the ability to reset fights, neither is movement speed.
2. Withdraw and Roll for initiative are skills which gives you a massive distance from your target.
3. You don’t need initiative once you have escaped, so Infiltrator’s Arrow is a great escape skill.
4. Shadow Refuge is a sure escape most the cases, unless you are that unlucky to meet someone with an AoE knockback/fear, essentialy only staff Necro and GS/Staff mesmer.
5. Stealth isn’t invulnerability, but it gives no clue to the enemy about where you are going to escape, which makes it a GREAT escape mechanic. Stealth+Withdraw/Roll for Initiative is a sure escape with no counter at all, exluding obviously some lucky CC.

sorrow.2364:

shimmerless.4560:

I’m not terribly sure where these mythical ‘resetting’ Thieves who can escape any battle are found, or how exactly they’re so much more capable than other classes. I can escape pretty reliably on a Warrior (30+ seconds of Swiftness and 3.5 long-range dashes that don’t require a target, wat).

I think a lot of players forget that stealth is not invulnerability and that Thieves who can move well have to give up in other areas to accomplish this (mspeed in stealth takes up a trait, mspeed Signet takes up a util slot, a metric ton of Init gets blown on Shortbow #5, etc.)

1. Speed signet is not what gives thieves the ability to reset fights, neither is movement speed.
2. Withdraw and Roll for initiative are skills which gives you a massive distance from your target.
3. You don’t need initiative once you have escaped, so Infiltrator’s Arrow is a great escape skill.
4. Shadow Refuge is a sure escape most the cases, unless you are that unlucky to meet someone with an AoE knockback/fear, essentialy only staff Necro and GS/Staff mesmer.
5. Stealth isn’t invulnerability, but it gives no clue to the enemy about where you are going to escape, which makes it a GREAT escape mechanic. Stealth+Withdraw/Roll for Initiative is a sure escape with no counter at all, exluding obviously some lucky CC.

SR is hardly a “sure escape”… if they stick around for the stealth, well, it’s a ring with a giant clip-art house over it, could it be the most telegraphed skill in the game? If they get forced out by AoE/non-target CC/cleave or try to make a rush then the stealth’s broken and there’s only so far they can go, so it’s a moot point.

If SR has a strength it’s in preventing stomps, partly because the longer you’re in it the more cost-effective it becomes. Using SR as a stealth panic button isn’t illegit but I don’t see it as ideal either.

I’d disagree that stealth “gives no clue to the enemy about where you are going to escape”, but I guess that’s a matter of opinion. I find my guesses are right more often than not, I just take the most obvious choice (if they seem new) or ask myself where I’d go if I wanted to confuse someone (if they’re formidable).

The thing is that what you’re saying isn’t false, don’t get me wrong, it’s just that it paints an overly-optimistic image of a Thief resetting which could honestly be done for just about any class (Bull’s into Rush or an opposite-facing Staff #2 into Blink covers the same distance). SR into heal into Withdraw is also extremely punishing on the cooldowns.

sorrow.2364:

4. Shadow Refuge is a sure escape most the cases, unless you are that unlucky to meet someone with an AoE knockback/fear, essentialy only staff Necro and GS/Staff mesmer.

Just gotta correct this.
Guardian Shield 5
Guardian Hammer 4
Warrior Hammer 4
Warrior “Fear Me!”
Engie Flamethrower 3
Elementalist /D Air 5

Singletarget or low area of affect: (Skillshot it where you think he is)
Warrior Rifle 5
Ranger LB 5

There are more but I thought I’d just share the more commonly played ones.

Thief should use Cold Down System.

Hexs.8015:

You guys are overreacting. Most people are complaining about aspects of sword dagger that existed pre-patch. Where were the calls for nerfs then?

Before the patch there wasnt youtube videos on S/D builds…
Now there is…

NERF YOUTUBE VIDEOS!

sorrow.2364:

daydream.2938:

Jesus Christ the line up of people complaining about thiefs. Gw2guru should make a why thiefs are not op and heres how to l2p video explaining this .

Hi average Thief player
Are you enjoying your profession?

Never play thief. Main an engy.

daydream.2938:

sorrow.2364:

daydream.2938:

Jesus Christ the line up of people complaining about thiefs. Gw2guru should make a why thiefs are not op and heres how to l2p video explaining this .

Hi average Thief player
Are you enjoying your profession?

Never play thief. Main an engy.

Are u really sure ? :P
Beacause i saw u in the NA server playing ur thief and then ur female Ranger , when the trapper Ranger guide showned up 3-4 months ago :P

lLobo.7960:

Hexs.8015:

You guys are overreacting. Most people are complaining about aspects of sword dagger that existed pre-patch. Where were the calls for nerfs then?

Before the patch there wasnt youtube videos on S/D builds…
Now there is…

NERF YOUTUBE VIDEOS!

Same happened to eles… so now you can prepare your anus.

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

the real problem is a L2 kitten ue …..but even deeper is that anet caves to them on this and nerfs waaaaaaaay too much. try buff other classes.

anet dumbed this game down to allow a more broad range of players to play it. simple marketing ploys due to economic interests.

Travlane.5948:

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

the real problem is a L2 kitten ue …..but even deeper is that anet caves to them on this and nerfs waaaaaaaay too much. try buff other classes.

anet dumbed this game down to allow a more broad range of players to play it. simple marketing ploys due to economic interests.

Tell me , mister <<oh no the Thief will die if they nerf Mug , it have no evasive moves or cond removal , but now Lassarous Strike it have been buffed and need to be skilled to use it >> , how would buff the other classes ?
Should they do 3k in each auto attack , while the total HP remain the same ?
Should we reduce the tPvP to 2 or 3 ppl instead and focus to balance around that ?

what annoys me is the almost infinite range port when it says 1200 range…

Travlane.5948:

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

the real problem is a L2 kitten ue …..but even deeper is that anet caves to them on this and nerfs waaaaaaaay too much. try buff other classes.

anet dumbed this game down to allow a more broad range of players to play it. simple marketing ploys due to economic interests.

They went too far.

We can’t even use targeted ally skills now because loltoohard.

Travlane.5948:

Mrbig.8019:

SupahSpankeh.8452:

Kryshade, thanks.

I’ve tried all of those things – AFAIK, a 0/30/20/20 SD thief has a kittenload of condition removal, and I can’t keep them bleeding (let alone chilled) long enough to do anything.

I use my AoEs extensively. I use my marks, I spread them out and I cast them early then dodge between them to minimise the CD, forcing the thief to come to me and trigger them.

I don’t stand still.

I do use DS extensively. I’ve been a necro since BWE1. I know the AoE hits them, but do remember condi necros don’t do much damage with lifetransfer.

daydream – the thieves I’m having difficulty with are NOT the ones who got their burst nerfed. I’m talking SD, 0/30/20/20, heavy on the port, stealth and autoattack damage.

0-30-20-20 thieves have no damage and bring little to nothing in a team.

they may be strong 1vs1 but useless in everything else ( they’re not even that strong 1vs1 tbh).

I don’t see the point, a good necro is ALWAYS a hard fight for a thief, no matter what build he’s playing.

plz people listen to this….its same with d/p thieves….bring nothign to a team. good 1 v1 or 2v2 or maybe 1v2 but as a big team/zerg….useless…..at best they cancel out 1 person of the enemy zerg on the edge…usually an upscale anyway

They bring boon removal… S/D brings more than d/p for that very reason… D/P is easy for anyone with conditons and a moniker of toughness to deal with thanks to the lowered crit chance in pvp and lowered crit damage even at their best a d/p thief brings less to a team than the #3 skill on an s/d thief.

This thread should be burned.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Travlane.5948:

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

the real problem is a L2 kitten ue …..but even deeper is that anet caves to them on this and nerfs waaaaaaaay too much. try buff other classes.

anet dumbed this game down to allow a more broad range of players to play it. simple marketing ploys due to economic interests.

Tell me , mister <<oh no the Thief will die if they nerf Mug , it have no evasive moves or cond removal , but now Lassarous Strike it have been buffed and need to be skilled to use it >> , how would buff the other classes ?
Should they do 3k in each auto attack , while the total HP remain the same ?
Should we reduce the tPvP to 2 or 3 ppl instead and focus to balance around that ?

Um. What?

Haha who cares about this thred. Nothing will change unless the producers want it to. I will play my thief and perma evade. AND I 100% GURANTEE IT WONT BE NERFED BY THESE THREDS.

PearlGore.7419:

Um. What?

I am doing a little warmup , in case the Solo que dont bring most casual players back :P

I am simply ask him what is the ideal <<numbers>> each character should do , if he want all character to brought up .
How much % of the total HP , each attack should do

Zelulose.8695:

Haha who cares about this thred. Nothing will change unless the producers want it to. I will play my thief and perma evade. AND I 100% GURANTEE IT WONT BE NERFED BY THESE THREDS.

Unfortunately, the above post is more true than I would like. It is apparent that it is the developers’ “vision” that thieves be allowed permanent stealth and evade while at the same time be able to spam massive amounts of damage in a very short time.

All we as players can really do is realize that when we die to thieves in the blink of an eye, or attempt to actually fight them as they permanently evade and stealth through all of our attacks, that that is EXACTLY what the developers want to happen. And nothing we can say or do will ever change that.

Thanks.

easiest way to beat a sword thief, watch for his inflitrator’s strike buff and remember where he ported from because he is bound to that spot for 15 seconds. If you are a necro, drop marks on his bound spot, punish him for porting back. Most thieves wouldn’t think to teleport back while dodging so its a free hit xD.

Noctis Assassin.4035:

easiest way to beat a sword thief, watch for his inflitrator’s strike buff and remember where he ported from because he is bound to that spot for 15 seconds. If you are a necro, drop marks on his bound spot, punish him for porting back. Most thieves wouldn’t think to teleport back while dodging so its a free hit xD.

Most of the time SR will be used for stunbreaking. Can’t dodge while stunned.

Noctis Assassin.4035:

easiest way to beat a sword thief, watch for his inflitrator’s strike buff and remember where he ported from because he is bound to that spot for 15 seconds. If you are a necro, drop marks on his bound spot, punish him for porting back. Most thieves wouldn’t think to teleport back while dodging so its a free hit xD.

Or make porting back relatively fruitless by just moving to the teleport spot itself.
If you take the battle to his warp spot than as a Sword thief he has to walk away,or use Shadowstep to disengage. His other option is switch to bow and at that point he’s not using sword.
Also since Inf Strike can be interrupted. If he’s doing it in close quarters he can fear mark as his feet and if the thief warps in he loses Shadow return.
I’d presume most thieves he are fighting won’t be properly spacing themselves.

Ok shall we also discuss what a pain a bunker necro is with all his conditions and his uber survivability ? Not fun for thieves I can tell you this but we deal with it.
Or shall we discuss how OP the mesmer blow up build is and how difficult it is to get out of that burst damage at times?
Or maybe we can discuss how irritatingly mobile d/d elems are and how some are pretty difficult to kill.
The discussion can go on and on, I mean not to offend you but this is pointless. Every class as of the game balance right now has something good and something bad to offer.
People complained about Mug for thieves and now it’s nerfed so yes we have to find our next best build to stay on top of our game. Who wouldn’t? My personal take on thief is Heartseeker is boring, so yes I prefer a more interesting “mobile” gameplay.
Like someone said in this thread, seeing people constantly complaining about thieves we might as well remove them from the game, I totally agree.
Even in pvp there is so much hatred towards this class, it’s disheartening. If you do well in a match they call you “2,2,2 noob” etc…. even when your build is totally different, without actually understanding the class.
My advice is create a thief, play it for a while, understand the class and you probably won’t be thinking that this or that should be removed or altered.

The only thing I find broken on thief is the trait for steal removes a condition every 3 seconds ticks immediately on stealth. I think it should be after 3 seconds then every 3s after that point. implications of how much condi removal is possible by doing this is rather disheartening, and it is all player controlled condition removal.

Nah thieves need a buff. Buff mesmers, too. How come they don’t have an instat AOE nuke that wipes eveyone? Life is just not fair at times.

Just want to sum some things up here, from this post and others like it.

-Thieves dodge too much
-Thieves have too much access to stealth (Most thief haters would prefer 0 access to stealth)
-Thieves have too much maneuverability (porting, etc)
-Thieves do too much damage
-Thieves can escape fights too easily (tied to stealth and maneuverability)
-Thieves can stealth stomp, which is OP (An oldie but goodie)
-Thieves downed state is OP because its usually a guaranteed stomp evasion (keeping the golden oldies coming)
-Thieves heal too much (SA thieves mostly)
-Thieves can cleanse conditions too easily (SA thieves only)
-Thieves can spam their skills

I’m sure there’s some I missed, feel free to add to the list.

Just to clarify for everyone, thieves
-Are in the lowest HP bracket
-Wear medium armor
-Have 0 access to protection/stability
-Have no block/immune skills
-Have poor access to Regen
-Have poor condition removal outside stealth spam with 10 points in SA
-Can’t bunker at all (can’t hold a point when you’re stealthed or dodging in and out of the circle to stay alive)
-Spammable skills (via the initiative system) means no good effects on said skills (No KD/Kb/Blowback, extremely short durations on Immob/stun/daze, No boons tied to skills hitting)

Mind you the thief has had nothing but damage reductions since the game came out. What exactly is it you expect thieves to be, a free kill? Now that there’s an effective spec that doesn’t rely on stealth (and can most times avoid using it completely) to keep a thief competitive in teamfights, that’s the new thing thieves are too good at.

Just get over it.

Bacon Please.8407:

PearlGore.7419:

Oh for god sake we dodge to much now? Just remove us from the game and be done with it, next month it will be that we get medium armor, month after that we do damage! Nerf it…

Worst PvP gamers I have ever seen.

i’d be okay with removing thief from game.

see ya, don’t let the door hit ya on the way out

I second this idea. Either that, or just put all Thieves in their own queue for sPvP and WvW. Let them run around fighting their own broken stealth mechanic with no other classes to prey upon and see how much fun they have with that!

Thanks.

evilapprentice.6379:

What exactly is it you expect thieves to be, a free kill?

I think that pretty much sums it up yes
I think thieves are just different to fight than most other classes. You have to learn how to counter what you can’t see. You have to learn how long a thief will stay in stealth, to dodge at the right time and there are most likely a ton of other tricks that I am not familiar with just yet. (I am sure if I asked on the thief forum, the thieves would gladly help me (or anyone else) identifying those tricks.)

I myself still have a lot to learn when it comes to fighting thieves, but that doesn’t mean that it is impossible to do, it just means that I still have something to learn.
Their stealth and evade IS their defense. It is different yes, but like any other class they need to have access to a way to survive.

I don’t know how thieves perform in tpvp after the last patch. If they still aren’t viable I would say if thieves need anything, it would not be a nerf.

evilapprentice.6379:

Just want to sum some things up here, from this post and others like it.

-Thieves dodge too much
-Thieves have too much access to stealth (Most thief haters would prefer 0 access to stealth)
-Thieves have too much maneuverability (porting, etc)
-Thieves do too much damage
-Thieves can escape fights too easily (tied to stealth and maneuverability)
-Thieves can stealth stomp, which is OP (An oldie but goodie)
-Thieves downed state is OP because its usually a guaranteed stomp evasion (keeping the golden oldies coming)
-Thieves heal too much (SA thieves mostly)
-Thieves can cleanse conditions too easily (SA thieves only)
-Thieves can spam their skills

I’m sure there’s some I missed, feel free to add to the list.

Just to clarify for everyone, thieves
-Are in the lowest HP bracket
-Wear medium armor
-Have 0 access to protection/stability
-Have no block/immune skills
-Have poor access to Regen
-Have poor condition removal outside stealth spam with 10 points in SA
-Can’t bunker at all (can’t hold a point when you’re stealthed or dodging in and out of the circle to stay alive)
-Spammable skills (via the initiative system) means no good effects on said skills (No KD/Kb/Blowback, extremely short durations on Immob/stun/daze, No boons tied to skills hitting)

Mind you the thief has had nothing but damage reductions since the game came out. What exactly is it you expect thieves to be, a free kill? Now that there’s an effective spec that doesn’t rely on stealth (and can most times avoid using it completely) to keep a thief competitive in teamfights, that’s the new thing thieves are too good at.

Just get over it.

I expect just a simple, easy thing.
Thieves who runs glass cannon are as squishy as a Necromancer/Ranger/Engineer/Elementalist/Guardian/etc who runs as a glass cannon.
I’d like to see thieves forced to sacrifice damage to get defenses as much as other professions need to counter the stupid meta they created. I’d like that Thieves need to have at least 1400 toughness and vitality as everyone else need to survive.
That’s all I’d like to see.

I don’t want them to be a free-kill. I want them not to be a win-win profession. I want them to be on par with the other professions. Am I asking too much?

sorrow.2364:

I expect just a simple, easy thing.
Thieves who runs glass cannon are as squishy as a Necromancer/Ranger/Engineer/Elementalist/Guardian/etc who runs as a glass cannon.
I’d like to see thieves forced to sacrifice damage to get defenses as much as other professions need to counter the stupid meta they created. I’d like that Thieves need to have at least 1400 toughness and vitality as everyone else need to survive.
That’s all I’d like to see.

I don’t want them to be a free-kill. I want them not to be a win-win profession. I want them to be on par with the other professions. Am I asking too much?

are you trolling? wtf man. You play a GD mesmer. MESMER. you know … the king of wearing full zerker yet having the ability to dish and tank extreme damage via multiple distorts, blink, phase retreat, etc… etc.. I mean… blurred frenzy …. seriously? The thief class in tpvp requires complete carry. Only a really solid team can carry the thief and allow it to shine. I just don’t understand your argument here. I really don’t.

Any gc thief is either on the sidelines firing NERFED trick shots and cb’s in a teamfight…or insta gibbed if he even dares to enter the teamfight aoe f-fest that exists in the current meta. Oh… and what is driving that aoe f-fest… you know, engies, necros and that gd shatter mesmer. You seen him?

mursie.3681:

are you trolling? wtf man. You play a GD mesmer. MESMER. you know … the king of wearing full zerker yet having the ability to dish and tank extreme damage via multiple distorts, blink, phase retreat, etc… etc.. I mean… blurred frenzy …. seriously? The thief class in tpvp requires complete carry. Only a really solid team can carry the thief and allow it to shine. I just don’t understand your argument here. I really don’t.

Any gc thief is either on the sidelines firing NERFED trick shots and cb’s in a teamfight…or insta gibbed if he even dares to enter the teamfight aoe f-fest that exists in the current meta. Oh… and what is driving that aoe f-fest… you know, engies, necros and that gd shatter mesmer. You seen him?

You took into the discussion the Mesmer, which is another profession everyone is complaining about since the launch. You can’t justify a flaw with another flaw, this is pointless.

Thieves get instagibbed if they dare to enter into any “AoE fest”? Are we playing the same profession?

“You took into the discussion the Mesmer, which is another profession everyone is complaining about since the launch. You can’t justify a flaw with another flaw, this is pointless.”
From my point of view, only mesmer and thief I struggle with. ANY other class is ok, you can see them, you can hit them, you can read what they do. They are there, right in front of you having to deal with you directly.
These two on the other hand…..
The thief, able to constantly vanish, crazy burst….the very nature of the way it’s mechanics work is grief happy. You can aoe him, sure you can…but you need to know where he is to do that. You can hit him in stealth, sure but you need to know where he is to do that. Otherwise, you are flailing madly with him sat outside of your reach, wetting himself laughing ( I’ve been guilty of this) at you. You can condition him up, sure you can but he can heal+cleanse whilst being cloaked like klingon bird of prey. The very way in which the class works is designed to stack the encounter so far in the thief’s favour BEFORE it’s under way is not even funny (except for the thief) oh and if you should find yourself vs a target that can fight back, just become utterly invisible, completely invisible even if you stand in front of them, 2 feet away from their face…….
Before any bad boy attitude replies to this, I play a thief too. It’s used when I want to farm glory fast. It out performs any other class I play.
Mesmers? Nearly as bad. If you fight a good one, basically clonefest spam run around behind your clones, the awful targeting system acquires the clones instead of you. Enemy can’t hit you without aoe. Except, the clones that block your opponent’s los, DON’T block yours kittenol.
And yes, I have a mesmer too. That is basically comedy relief for me.
I usually play a necro, because those two classes just feel cheap to play as. I have to try less hard with them than anything else….it could mean I’m more skilled with them-but I doubt that.
People are mad at the design ethic not the players.

AmuseDarkly.2430:

“You took into the discussion the Mesmer, which is another profession everyone is complaining about since the launch. You can’t justify a flaw with another flaw, this is pointless.”
From my point of view, only mesmer and thief I struggle with. ANY other class is ok, you can see them, you can hit them, you can read what they do. They are there, right in front of you having to deal with you directly.
These two on the other hand…..
The thief, able to constantly vanish, crazy burst….the very nature of the way it’s mechanics work is grief happy. You can aoe him, sure you can…but you need to know where he is to do that. You can hit him in stealth, sure but you need to know where he is to do that. Otherwise, you are flailing madly with him sat outside of your reach, wetting himself laughing ( I’ve been guilty of this) at you. You can condition him up, sure you can but he can heal+cleanse whilst being cloaked like klingon bird of prey. The very way in which the class works is designed to stack the encounter so far in the thief’s favour BEFORE it’s under way is not even funny (except for the thief) oh and if you should find yourself vs a target that can fight back, just become utterly invisible, completely invisible even if you stand in front of them, 2 feet away from their face…….
Before any bad boy attitude replies to this, I play a thief too. It’s used when I want to farm glory fast. It out performs any other class I play.
Mesmers? Nearly as bad. If you fight a good one, basically clonefest spam run around behind your clones, the awful targeting system acquires the clones instead of you. Enemy can’t hit you without aoe. Except, the clones that block your opponent’s los, DON’T block yours kittenol.
And yes, I have a mesmer too. That is basically comedy relief for me.
I usually play a necro, because those two classes just feel cheap to play as. I have to try less hard with them than anything else….it could mean I’m more skilled with them-but I doubt that.
People are mad at the design ethic not the players.

KK, new plan…

Put Thieves and Mesmers in their own queues/maps and let them fight/grief one another while everyone else goes to other queues/maps where they can fight one another without having to deal with broken targeting mechanics!

LOVE how you describe Thief and Mesmer play by the way… Comedy relief FTW!! I imagine it must be quite funny with either class to just sit and watch people attempt to kill you knowing they cannot really target you while you kill them in a leisurely manner.

Thanks.

sorrow.2364:

I expect just a simple, easy thing.
Thieves who runs glass cannon are as squishy as a Necromancer/Ranger/Engineer/Elementalist/Guardian/etc who runs as a glass cannon.
I’d like to see thieves forced to sacrifice damage to get defenses as much as other professions need to counter the stupid meta they created. I’d like that Thieves need to have at least 1400 toughness and vitality as everyone else need to survive.
That’s all I’d like to see.

I don’t want them to be a free-kill. I want them not to be a win-win profession. I want them to be on par with the other professions. Am I asking too much?

In your above list of glass cannon builds, thieves are by far the squishiest, because they can’t, in any way via their traits, utilities, or weapons, gain protection or stability, have 0 Blocks, and no immunity skills. Every single one of the classes you mentioned have access to at minimum one of those abilities (except maybe necro’s, I don’t know them super well off the top of my head, but they do get a second health bar), even in a glass setup, if they so choose.

I’d like to see thieves forced to sacrifice damage to get defenses as much as other professions

This is the sentence that tells me you never played a thief. Thieves are mostly glass because They, more than any other class in this game, gain the least by sacrificing Damage for Defensive stats. Even the developers of the game have noticed, and mentioned that they’re looking into boosting thief skills base damage so they can spec more defensively and still remain useful in a fight.

Go roll a 10/30/30/0/0 thief with a soldiers ammy – The stats will look nice on paper. 2850ish total armor, 18kish health, 25-35% crit (depending on your runes and sigils of course), 30-35% crit damage, decently high total power…it’ll look like a solid hybrid spec. Then you’ll go play it, and be sorely disappointed. You’ll lose most fights because your opponents still have access to powerful defensive tools, and all you’re rolling with is high armor. Without the damage to pressure them into playing to survive, you’ve given up all control of the fight, and thieves do not do attrition well.

Make thief condi removal upon entering stealth go. It should remove a condition AFTER every 3 seconds, not every time he spams stealth, which they can do a lot of the time.

Raise BP cost to 8 initiative. It should be a defensive maneuver that costs you something not “tralala you can’t hit me in melee and I’ll stealth at will without even needing to land a cloak and dagger”.

Or they could actually just remove the leap finisher from heartseeker.

evilapprentice.6379:

and thieves do not do attrition well.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

P/D thieves in WvW beg to differ.

And oh please, what good is a necro’s second life bar when they do garbage pressure in it. It’s not even an actual double HP bar — it just a fraction of your total health.

You go play a berserker necro and come back and tell people that life is so hard. Or a berserker (BERSERKER, NOT VALKYRIE) ele and come tell me their survivability is great with all of their 13k HP waiting to be 2-shot and your main survival skills being 75+ sec cd’s.

Hell, where are the berserker rangers? That’s right, they don’t exist because unlike your precious thief they actually don’t do that great a burst, nor often as other classes, and their defenses are crap.

Zenith.7301:

Make thief condi removal upon entering stealth go. It should remove a condition AFTER every 3 seconds, not every time he spams stealth, which they can do a lot of the time.

Raise BP cost to 8 initiative. It should be a defensive maneuver that costs you something not “tralala you can’t hit me in melee and I’ll stealth at will without even needing to land a cloak and dagger”.

Or they could actually just remove the leap finisher from heartseeker.

evilapprentice.6379:

and thieves do not do attrition well.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

P/D thieves in WvW beg to differ.

And oh please, what good is a necro’s second life bar when they do garbage pressure in it. It’s not even an actual double HP bar — it just a fraction of your total health.

You go play a berserker necro and come back and tell people that life is so hard. Or a berserker (BERSERKER, NOT VALKYRIE) ele and come tell me their survivability is great with all of their 13k HP waiting to be 2-shot and your main survival skills being 75+ sec cd’s.

Hell, where are the berserker rangers? That’s right, they don’t exist because unlike your precious thief they actually don’t do that great a burst, nor often as other classes, and their defenses are crap.

WvW is classified as PvE for a reason – it doesn’t count. You balance around the idea that everyone has the same access to gear as every other player, and you play on maps that are small and roughly symmetrical – the moment you try to start evening out gear levels artificially, you might as well go play rift.

I’ve never WvW’d. From the video’s I’ve seen, however, any player with the most basic grasp of PvP would mop up in there – it appears full of players who take PvE specs into a PvP environment, for the most part have no idea what they’re doing, and cry a whole lot.

For some perspective, I ran P/D in PvP (thats Hot Join and Tourneys, not WvW, to be crystal clear) before it was popular, 6 months ago. This isn’t me claiming hipster cred, just setting up the rest of my story. The spec ran extremely well for a couple of weeks, until players dissected the spec, figured out how it worked, and played the logical counter to it. This rendered the spec largely ineffectual – most of the power behind the spec was the fact that players didn’t know what was going on, because thieves hadn’t ever in the past run Pistol MH. The fact that this spec still works in WvW is a testament to how far behind it is in comparison to PvP when it comes to basic player vs player mechanics.

Your suggestions are frankly idiotic. You’re either a troll or a very inexperienced player – do feel free to clarify which in further posts.

And Just a note, I’ve fought some excellent D/D burst necro’s – they Burst hard with good CC, until you learn what skills to counter/avoid, JUST LIKE A THIEF