Guild Wars 2

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/15charsstupidthing

ragnarokda.1805:

Mcrocha.3891:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Morwath.9817:

Dirame.8521:

Crinn.7864:

Dirame.8521:

Sorry dude, you’re wrong. 5 stacks of bleed kills a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player. You can argue semantics and say it’s a “soft-counter” to condis but that’s about it.

Power attacks kill a 11k health player faster than it does a 20k health player.

Raw health pool isn’t a counter to anything beyond burst. All vit does is give you a larger margin of error regardless of whether you’re fighting condi or power.

Sorry again but are you kidding me? Do you know why people stack condi duration? It’s not just for giggles I can assure you that. It’s because high health pull characters require longer duration conditions to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects conditions.

People stack condi duration, because condi duration gives +% damage generated per condi application…

You could say that people stack Precision and Ferocity because of “high health pull characters require more damage to kill. That alone is enough to tell you how vitality affects power damage.”

I’m not arguing about power dude. I’m arguing about condi. Condi is directly affected by health pool, that’s a fact that I am trying to put across. If you want to argue against that fact, go ahead but let’s leave power out of this because that’s a whole different mathematical problem.

You’re arguing about damage. It’s obvious that Vitality affects TtK, but it doesn’t mean that it’s counter to anything aside from burst. What is more, I’ve (and not only I) pointed out that if we accept your logic as correct, then Vitality is counter to any form of damage.

Yes.
Direct damage is affected by both toughness and health, Condis are only affected by vitality.

Condis are not affected by vitality. They do the same damage regardless of how much health you have. You can argue that vitality makes condis take longer to kill you, but that’s what it does for everything. Conversely, power damage is directly affected by toughness.

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.

Yeah, bc toughness is an actual “counter” to direct damage. Direct damage is directly affected by toughness because it is involved in damage calculation. Toughness is a direct counter to damage.

Condi damage is not directly affected by vitality. Vitality is not an actual “counter” to condi damage. Vitality doesn’t decrease the effectiveness of condi damage like toughness decreases direct damage.

Toughness is a semi counter to power, vitality is a semi counter to condi.

NeXeD.3042:

Toughness is a semi counter to power, vitality is a semi counter to condi.

Toughness is partial mitigation. Vit is just a raw TTK increase.

Neither are counters. Countering implies negation of a mechanic. Cleansing is a counter to condi. Blocks are a counter to power.

The value of toughness is that it’s constant partial mitigation. Against a single power attack the value of toughness is marginal. Over the course of the fight however toughness adds up to a lot of mitigated damage. Toughness works great against sustained pressure as it decreases the amount of healing required to keep up with the pressure.
This is why cleric support guards are so vulnerable to power spikes despite having some of the highest toughness in game, yet at the same time are nearly impossible to kill by attrition. (which is a counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim because spikes are nearly always done with power attacks, yet the high-toughness support guard is extremely vulnerable to spikes.)

Vitality is another story. Vit merely gives a increase in health pool. This is great against burst (from anything) but is terrible as a sustain because it doesn’t actually mitigate any damage, and a large health pool also means you need way more healing to replenish.
This is why Carrion necros (high vit, low tough)almost never manage to completely top off their health pool in combat, but almost never get spiked to death. (which is counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim, since most spikes are done with power yet the low toughness Carrion Necro can’t realistically be spiked.)

The only way you could argue that Toughness is a counter to power is if you believe that high toughness prevents death by power. This is also a fallacy, as toughness only really decreases the effectiveness of attrition by power attacks, and even then only if you have the heal capabilities to back it up.

ragnarokda.1805:

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.

Vitality is a equal cushion.
A power attack dealing 1k damage with a 1sec cast would take 12 seconds to kill a 12k HP target and 20 seconds to kill a 20k HP target. Exactly the same TTK as condi.

Saying “well toughness decreases power damage, and thus increases TTK against power without a vitality increase” doesn’t all of a sudden make vitality a counter to condi, and it sure as hell doesn’t make vitality less effective against power.

In fact toughness just augments the effectiveness of vitality against power.

I also noticed everyone has purposely not talked about week 2 of EU pro league.

How many times did you hear Jebro say “The condi pressure”

Azukas.1426:

I also noticed everyone has purposely not talked about week 2 of EU pro league.

How many times did you hear Jebro say “The condi pressure”

None, ‘cause I didn’t watch it.

Azukas.1426:

I also noticed everyone has purposely not talked about week 2 of EU pro league.

How many times did you hear Jebro say “The condi pressure”

And why is condi pressure a problem? Sounds to me like it’s exactly what DoTs are supposed to do. Condition builds are supposed to wear you down.

Draygo.9473:

Part of the problem with conditions in my opinion is the delayed feedback from being hit by the skill. For example warrior’s pin down. People do not connect this skill as being a huge threat outside its immobilize. But it does 9k damage over time from a properly setup condi warrior build.

I don’t think for a lot of people get the idea that they need to dodge pin down. They may think- I have to dodge or I’ll be immobilized. Instead of- I have to dodge pin down or die.

Compare that to kill shot where you have the immediate feedback of that huge hit.

I don’t think it’s a fixable problem.

This is 100% truth. I’ve been saying it for a long time; conditions seem overpowered to the uneducated because there’s no big damage number that pops up when you get hit, so you don’t recognize how much damage you actually just got hit for. They don’t recognize any particular skill as being a heavy hitter, so they don’t see any issue until the stacks are high, but then they don’t know where to attribute it.

I used to see it all the time back when I ran condi necro: people ate attack after attack without even attempting to mitigate. I’m positive that once I start running condi Reaper (I’m enjoying Power too much atm), I’ll see the exact same thing still.

When you facetank a few dozen attacks, don’t you think you should die?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azukas.1426:

I also noticed everyone has purposely not talked about week 2 of EU pro league.

How many times did you hear Jebro say “The condi pressure”

And why is condi pressure a problem? Sounds to me like it’s exactly what DoTs are supposed to do. Condition builds are supposed to wear you down.

Draygo.9473:

Part of the problem with conditions in my opinion is the delayed feedback from being hit by the skill. For example warrior’s pin down. People do not connect this skill as being a huge threat outside its immobilize. But it does 9k damage over time from a properly setup condi warrior build.

I don’t think for a lot of people get the idea that they need to dodge pin down. They may think- I have to dodge or I’ll be immobilized. Instead of- I have to dodge pin down or die.

Compare that to kill shot where you have the immediate feedback of that huge hit.

I don’t think it’s a fixable problem.

This is 100% truth. I’ve been saying it for a long time; conditions seem overpowered to the uneducated because there’s no big damage number that pops up when you get hit, so you don’t recognize how much damage you actually just got hit for. They don’t recognize any particular skill as being a heavy hitter, so they don’t see any issue until the stacks are high, but then they don’t know where to attribute it.

I used to see it all the time back when I ran condi necro: people ate attack after attack without even attempting to mitigate. I’m positive that once I start running condi Reaper (I’m enjoying Power too much atm), I’ll see the exact same thing still.

When you facetank a few dozen attacks, don’t you think you should die?

The comments from @jebro were about the over the top performance of condis in this game, they do no act like they supposed to be , you know?! “to wear you down” .

People can keep acting like you and say “everything it’s fine..you need to l2p”..but the changes are coming, anybody who watch ESl knows that the changes to condis are coming, it’s not a matter of ‘if’ but ‘when’

Condi from Reaper isn’t that bad because reaper has no disengage mechanic, start with zero DS, and don’t have terribly high sustain with crazy nerfed blighter’s boon.

The build that SHOULD get nerfed is the CRAZY condi/high damage/insane sustain shiro/malyx herald rev build, this one http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Mallyx I mean, it’s just perfect, it has like, everything. Just run 2 of those herald builds and a tempest with a druid watching home and then whatever the kitten u want as a fifth and GG u win.

Firebird.8324:

Condi from Reaper isn’t that bad because reaper has no disengage mechanic, start with zero DS, and don’t have terribly high sustain with crazy nerfed blighter’s boon.

The build that SHOULD get nerfed is the CRAZY condi/high damage/insane sustain shiro/malyx herald rev build, this one http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Mallyx I mean, it’s just perfect, it has like, everything. Just run 2 of those herald builds and a tempest with a druid watching home and then whatever the kitten u want as a fifth and GG u win.

Plus mallyx revs and tempests beat the kitten out of reapers.

Supreme.3164:

The game is completely unplayable between mallyx/shiro and condi reaper the amount of condis spammed on you is outrageous at this point I suggest the dev to introduce more traits like diamond skin…or on a more serious note I think it’s be about time for Jon Peters to honour his promise from months ago where he recognized that:

@Jon Peters

Just getting these out there so we know we are all in agreement:
1) Conditions seem a bit strong
2) World bosses are currently too easy
3) There are some bugged skills and traits
4) There are some overpowered builds
We won’t fix it all at once but these are four large topics we are talking about. In the meantime keep the feedback and bug reports coming, and I guess farm up some world bosses. We are dedicating time towards these issues and are intending to resolve them as quickly as possible. As we have said before, the live environment differs too greatly from anything we can reliably simulate internally so big changes like today’s build will cause things to sometimes change at an alarming rateTM.
Thanks for your patience,
Jon

So..when conditions will be looked at? I mean you dev are more than happy to nerf burst dmg…but condi burst is fine? Burst coming from glassy spec that can die if you cough in their directions it’s not fine..but tanky specs that deal absurd amount of dmg with conditions are fine? Weren’t conditions supposed to be an attrition mechanic than from where the rev and reaper come from?

This is so true. If the opposing team has spec’d to maximize it you find yourself in their rotation of immobilize/codi/interrupt. You have zero chance to use your skill to be competitive. Instead you can just sit there in horror as your health drops from max to 0 in about three seconds. You are constantly interrupted unable to move or to pop any defensive skills, heals or counter attacks. The opponent who did this to you had to use very little skill to begin the cycle.

In this scenario a players skill at playing the game is removed. It comes down to luck of whoever can get that first hit and begin the vicious immob/codi/interrupt/condi cycle.

I have a Codi Mallyx Herald and a Codi Reaper. I know these builds. Winning with them (especially when stacking multiple reapers or heralds on the same team) is mostly utilizing the OP build, it’s not skill. There is no fun in that.

It’s very sad that all this money has been pumped into GW2 ESL Pro League play and yet the game itself has become “build wars” once again. ArenaNet, you had a really great sPvP experience with GW2 Conquest leading up to HoT. The best sPvP experience I’ve had in any MMO and your kittened that away. In order to sell more HoT product, someone made this horrible decision to make Elite Specs more powerful than non Elite specs in PvP. That alone wouldn’t have destroyed sPvP, but the lack of balance around those Elite Specs does finish the job.

I don’t blame those working on the PvE aspects of HoT. They did a great job overall. Your developers responsible for sPvP balance and defending the design changes of the post-HoT sPvP aspects of the game completely and utterly failed us. They continue to fail us because in spite of all these forum post, we have zero communication from them. We got one post from Colin the other day on reddit! Not even here. Is there that much political kitten behind the curtain at ArenaNet?!? Why Colin? Why is the game director addressing the sPvP community?!? It seems someone below him in charge of the sPvP aspects of the game should be a point of contact with the community and handle these relations. You can’t even properly address us on official forums? I just don’t get it. sPvP in this game is a joke.

What’s more it’s very sad to see it go ESL Pro on Twitch and those viewer numbers dropping because we know how good sPvP in GW2 can be. You worked for years, since launch of GW2 in 2012 leading up to HoT to get good balance. Then you nuked that balance and made it so people who invested months in getting really good at playing the game on a balanced class and balanced build they really enjoyed had to start all over again. Whoever made that decision should be terminated. In fact the game would probably do great if a lot “house cleaning” happened in the sPvP section.

I’ve never seen such a complete train wreck of an implementation and so many people angry. I had guild members and friends who loved sPvP before you destroyed the game. Many of them have left and they are strongly trying to pull me into other games. This is what catastrophic failure looks like ArenaNet.

NeXeD.3042:

Firebird.8324:

Condi from Reaper isn’t that bad because reaper has no disengage mechanic, start with zero DS, and don’t have terribly high sustain with crazy nerfed blighter’s boon.

The build that SHOULD get nerfed is the CRAZY condi/high damage/insane sustain shiro/malyx herald rev build, this one http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Mallyx I mean, it’s just perfect, it has like, everything. Just run 2 of those herald builds and a tempest with a druid watching home and then whatever the kitten u want as a fifth and GG u win.

Plus mallyx revs and tempests beat the kitten out of reapers.

Tempest doesn’t beat any decent reaper at high level , 1vs1 and with the tempest using diamond skin. Assuming the ele using d/f earth then he won’t have the dmg to down the reaper before somebody comes to help the reaper and even in those “rare” occasions that you face full condi team, 1-2 carrion reapers are still able to break through diamond skin so…

your statement that tempest beats reaper only counts in hotjoin (barely) or extremely low level of pvp where nobody rotate

Condi does seem a bit out of control at the moment.

Crinn.7864:

NeXeD.3042:

Toughness is a semi counter to power, vitality is a semi counter to condi.

Toughness is partial mitigation. Vit is just a raw TTK increase.

Neither are counters. Countering implies negation of a mechanic. Cleansing is a counter to condi. Blocks are a counter to power.

The value of toughness is that it’s constant partial mitigation. Against a single power attack the value of toughness is marginal. Over the course of the fight however toughness adds up to a lot of mitigated damage. Toughness works great against sustained pressure as it decreases the amount of healing required to keep up with the pressure.
This is why cleric support guards are so vulnerable to power spikes despite having some of the highest toughness in game, yet at the same time are nearly impossible to kill by attrition. (which is a counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim because spikes are nearly always done with power attacks, yet the high-toughness support guard is extremely vulnerable to spikes.)

Vitality is another story. Vit merely gives a increase in health pool. This is great against burst (from anything) but is terrible as a sustain because it doesn’t actually mitigate any damage, and a large health pool also means you need way more healing to replenish.
This is why Carrion necros (high vit, low tough)almost never manage to completely top off their health pool in combat, but almost never get spiked to death. (which is counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim, since most spikes are done with power yet the low toughness Carrion Necro can’t realistically be spiked.)

The only way you could argue that Toughness is a counter to power is if you believe that high toughness prevents death by power. This is also a fallacy, as toughness only really decreases the effectiveness of attrition by power attacks, and even then only if you have the heal capabilities to back it up.

ragnarokda.1805:

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.

Vitality is a equal cushion.
A power attack dealing 1k damage with a 1sec cast would take 12 seconds to kill a 12k HP target and 20 seconds to kill a 20k HP target. Exactly the same TTK as condi.

Saying “well toughness decreases power damage, and thus increases TTK against power without a vitality increase” doesn’t all of a sudden make vitality a counter to condi, and it sure as hell doesn’t make vitality less effective against power.

In fact toughness just augments the effectiveness of vitality against power.

This guy is in the right. But with everything said I still don’t think toughness affecting conditions is the answer. Maybe have protection work for condi, too? I mean, it kind of makes sense.

ragnarokda.1805:

Crinn.7864:

NeXeD.3042:

Toughness is a semi counter to power, vitality is a semi counter to condi.

Toughness is partial mitigation. Vit is just a raw TTK increase.

Neither are counters. Countering implies negation of a mechanic. Cleansing is a counter to condi. Blocks are a counter to power.

The value of toughness is that it’s constant partial mitigation. Against a single power attack the value of toughness is marginal. Over the course of the fight however toughness adds up to a lot of mitigated damage. Toughness works great against sustained pressure as it decreases the amount of healing required to keep up with the pressure.
This is why cleric support guards are so vulnerable to power spikes despite having some of the highest toughness in game, yet at the same time are nearly impossible to kill by attrition. (which is a counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim because spikes are nearly always done with power attacks, yet the high-toughness support guard is extremely vulnerable to spikes.)

Vitality is another story. Vit merely gives a increase in health pool. This is great against burst (from anything) but is terrible as a sustain because it doesn’t actually mitigate any damage, and a large health pool also means you need way more healing to replenish.
This is why Carrion necros (high vit, low tough)almost never manage to completely top off their health pool in combat, but almost never get spiked to death. (which is counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim, since most spikes are done with power yet the low toughness Carrion Necro can’t realistically be spiked.)

The only way you could argue that Toughness is a counter to power is if you believe that high toughness prevents death by power. This is also a fallacy, as toughness only really decreases the effectiveness of attrition by power attacks, and even then only if you have the heal capabilities to back it up.

ragnarokda.1805:

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.

Vitality is a equal cushion.
A power attack dealing 1k damage with a 1sec cast would take 12 seconds to kill a 12k HP target and 20 seconds to kill a 20k HP target. Exactly the same TTK as condi.

Saying “well toughness decreases power damage, and thus increases TTK against power without a vitality increase” doesn’t all of a sudden make vitality a counter to condi, and it sure as hell doesn’t make vitality less effective against power.

In fact toughness just augments the effectiveness of vitality against power.

This guy is in the right. But with everything said I still don’t think toughness affecting conditions is the answer. Maybe have protection work for condi, too? I mean, it kind of makes sense.

That would probably just give an advantage to classes or comps with high prot capability which is kind of unfair. At least with toughness each individual player could make the choice

There was actually a post on protection and conditions awhile back..https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Conditions-and-protection-A-solution/first#post5384844

I’m not sure one way or the other if it’s the right thing to do. As some folks pointed out in that thread, do we really want to make the most powerful boon even more powerful?

I think condi’s are generally in a fine place right now. Everyone is so excited to run the elite specs a lot of us have left condi cleanse at the wayside, which is our own fault. I see the condi reaper and condi rev dominance as a temporary thing…inevitably people will adapt and begin running soldier runes again. And there’s no excuse not to. Before it was limited to guardian, warrior (and some bold rangers), but now that role is opened up to tempests and reapers, too.

Salamander.2504:

There was actually a post on protection and conditions awhile back..https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Conditions-and-protection-A-solution/first#post5384844

I’m not sure one way or the other if it’s the right thing to do. As some folks pointed out in that thread, do we really want to make the most powerful boon even more powerful?

I think condi’s are generally in a fine place right now. Everyone is so excited to run the elite specs a lot of us have left condi cleanse at the wayside, which is our own fault. I see the condi reaper and condi rev dominance as a temporary thing…inevitably people will adapt and begin running soldier runes again. And there’s no excuse not to. Before it was limited to guardian, warrior (and some bold rangers), but now that role is opened up to tempests and reapers, too.

Oh yeah absolutely. Everything is still new and shiny and people want to play with that stuff. It’s understandable. I personally think condition is fine as well but, man, the crying hurts my ears. And it’s not even just in the forums. In game people are just as bad… Before june23 killing someone with condition damage never warranted any comment but now people don’t hesitate to say something like, “Why you running a cheese build? Condi is cheese! You’re so bad your condis have to do the work instead of you!”

Look, I get that in the past condi wasn’t as dangerous but it is now. Lol it hasn’t functionally changed it just does damage that is almost comparable to power damage.

I’ve never had to defend DoTs in an MMO before… Like… Ever? People just understood in all other MMOs that I’ve played that if you eat a bunch of condi applications you are going to die quickly without a cleanse… Lol

ragnarokda.1805:

Salamander.2504:

There was actually a post on protection and conditions awhile back..https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Conditions-and-protection-A-solution/first#post5384844

I’m not sure one way or the other if it’s the right thing to do. As some folks pointed out in that thread, do we really want to make the most powerful boon even more powerful?

I think condi’s are generally in a fine place right now. Everyone is so excited to run the elite specs a lot of us have left condi cleanse at the wayside, which is our own fault. I see the condi reaper and condi rev dominance as a temporary thing…inevitably people will adapt and begin running soldier runes again. And there’s no excuse not to. Before it was limited to guardian, warrior (and some bold rangers), but now that role is opened up to tempests and reapers, too.

Oh yeah absolutely. Everything is still new and shiny and people want to play with that stuff. It’s understandable. I personally think condition is fine as well but, man, the crying hurts my ears. And it’s not even just in the forums. In game people are just as bad… Before june23 killing someone with condition damage never warranted any comment but now people don’t hesitate to say something like, “Why you running a cheese build? Condi is cheese! You’re so bad your condis have to do the work instead of you!”

Look, I get that in the past condi wasn’t as dangerous but it is now. Lol it hasn’t functionally changed it just does damage that is almost comparable to power damage.

I’ve never had to defend DoTs in an MMO before… Like… Ever? People just understood in all other MMOs that I’ve played that if you eat a bunch of condi applications you are going to die quickly without a cleanse… Lol

You’re quite deluded if you think to be that much skilled respect to the majority, if you think that condi clear spam is the answer..pls be my guest and make a video, ‘cause if top teams die too to condi spam..I’m sure you can teach them also

Condis being too strong has already been suggested by the design lead Jon Peter before he left , the presenters during ESL week 2 were commenting on the same thing and still here you are telling others how they suck because they can’t deal with condis….

The reason why you’re defending condis that much is because you know changes are coming to certain skills whether you like it or not.

Telling others to l2p when they get chilled/feared/confused/tormented/crippled/immobilized/dazed to death is really delusional, it’s not like druids can spamm daze with celestial form or revs auto-attacking torments, reapers chill fest with RS and chronos with confusion cherries

Still here we are, deluded people telling others to use soldier runes that clear a single freaking condi for shout use do you guys even watch some high end pvp before opening your mouth or you just let your ego run free? keep at it..nerfs will come eventually

Supreme, I don’t play any condi builds, man. I just deal with it. Nothing I said is based on my “ego,” and I haven’t told anyone to “L2P”. Do you think we can keep the discussion civil without going ad hominem?

As for your specific gripes:
1) Yeah druid has a lot of daze, but you’re problem is CC, not condi, and I agree that CC in PvP has become too frequent with HoT elite specs.
2) Yeah rev is pretty strong, but it’s hard to argue the problem is in their auto-attack…
3) Agreed that reaper Deathly Chill trait could use a damage reduction. If you look in my post history, I’ve proposed to reduce the scaling from 3.0 to 2.5.
4) Condi mesmer has literally never been weaker since the pre-HoT nerf to Maim the Disillusioned. Condi is currently their weakest spec.
5) Soldier runes rock, man.

Salamander.2504:

Supreme, I don’t play any condi builds, man. I just deal with it. Nothing I said is based on my “ego,” and I haven’t told anyone to “L2P”. Do you think we can keep the discussion civil without going ad hominem?

As for your specific gripes:
1) Yeah druid has a lot of daze, but you’re problem is CC, not condi, and I agree that CC in PvP has become too frequent with HoT elite specs.
2) Yeah rev is pretty strong, but it’s hard to argue the problem is in their auto-attack…
3) Agreed that reaper Deathly Chill trait could use a damage reduction. If you look in my post history, I’ve proposed to reduce the scaling from 3.0 to 2.5.
4) Soldier runes rock, man.

I didn’t quote you because I wasn’t answering to you, was referring to this @ragnarok guy who keeps telling other to l2p when most top players agree that cc/condi spamm is out of control, I mean just take a look at current team compositions.

It’s not like you get outplayed and you must accept your defeat, from one side you get dazed for 2s every 5s or immobilized/crippled then you get feared/chilled/tormented to death and with soldier runes you still can’t do anything, you get swamped by several stacks of condis while losing control of your character

On a point you dodge left and you get dazed lock from the right, you cleanse that torment/chill combo and another comes 2s later +immobilize/crippled/fear, you use another stun break trying to move and you get caught by a well of gravity followed by more fear/chill spamm…seriously ridicolous

Supreme.3164:

I didn’t quote you because I wasn’t answering to you, was referring to this @ragnarok guy who keeps telling other to l2p when most top players agree that cc/condi spamm is out of control, I mean just take a look at current team compositions.

It’s not like you get outplayed and you must accept your defeat, from one side you get dazed for 2s every 5s or immobilized/crippled then you get feared/chilled/tormented to death and with soldier runes you still can’t do anything, you get swamped by several stacks of condis while losing control of your character

On a point you dodge left and you get dazed lock from the right, you cleanse that torment/chill combo and another comes 2s later +immobilize/crippled/fear, you use another stun break trying to move and you get caught by a well of gravity followed by more fear/chill spamm…seriously ridicolous

Well, it seemed like you were referring to me as a “deluded” person in this statement since I was the one who mentioned Soldier runes:

Supreme.3164:

Still here we are, deluded people telling others to use soldier runes that clear a single freaking condi for shout use do you guys even watch some high end pvp before opening your mouth or you just let your ego run free? keep at it..nerfs will come eventually.

Morwath.9817:

All we need is toughness reducing condi damage.

I disagree, toughness is supposed to reduce direct damage, while vitality and cleanses are the counterplay for conditions. I like the current way stats are handled, as toughness already has an advantage over vitality for most professions due to the synergy between toughness and healing power. In addition, other team members can cleanse conditions for their teammates, so ideally, everyone on a team should be running some sort of group cleanse.

Also, many traits and runes reduce the duration of certain conditions, or all conditions. If conditions are an issue, maybe try runes like: hoelbrak, melandru, resistance, or lyssa (i recommend lyssa only if you have an elite with a low cooldown). Traits such as adaptive armor (scrapper), relentless pursuit (reaper), stop drop and roll (ele), and absolute resolution (guardian) are a few that come to mind, but pretty much every profession has access to some trait that deals with certain conditions, in addition to (or combined with) their skills.

With that being said, necros and engis can be pretty tough to counter with the amount (and variety) of conditions they can apply. A good strategy would be to look at the composition of the team that you are facing, and if you see multiple necros, revs, and/or engis, make sure everyone brings enough condi cleanse and try to use them at the right time. When you see you have a few conditions on you, don’t freak out and use your biggest cleanse right away, pay attention to the number of stacks and the damage they are doing.

In addition, skills that apply conditions can be dodged just like any other attack. While some of them may be unblockable, such as necro staff marks, if you use your dodges properly, even unblockable attacks shouldn’t be an issue. If you are new to the game, or have trouble against condition-based builds, check out the information below, which may help:

Damaging Conditions
Pay attention to where the most damaging conditions are coming from, and the number of stacks of the ones that hurt the most. A soldier rifle engi may put a lot of conditions on you, but they won’t usually hurt you as much as a necro or revenant using a carrion or viper amulet. In addition, the most damaging conditions are usually: burning, torment, poison, confusion, and bleeding, in that order (with reaper chill usually falling somewhere between torment and poison).

“Disabling conditions*
The conditions that tend to negatively affect your own fighting ability tend to be: immobilize, weakness (for power builds), slow, chill, blind, vulnerability and cripple in that order. Immobilize can be devastating, as it prevents dodging, but this is a good time to use a skill that automatically removes it or a channeled block or invulnerability. If that isn’t possible, check how long the immob will last. For marauder, berserker and any other power-based builds, cleansing weakness is a priority, IF it lasts for a significant duration (more than 3-4 seconds) AND you are making full use of your cleanses (ie., don’t use meditation of purity with 3 conditions on you, use traited virtue/wings of resolve instead).

If you do have weakness or blind on you, and your health isn’t close to full, this is a good time to use your healing skill or a defensive skill, or to simply autoattack and dodge for a few seconds so you don’t waste your strongest cooldowns. If you are only blinded (and not weakened) and still want to attack, this is a great time to use a skill that attacks several times over the course of a short period (guardian marks/gs 2, necro axe 2, reaper shroud 2, warrior 100b, engi pistol 2, ranger lb 2, scrapper hammer 4 or 5, etc.). This will only cause your first attack in the chain to miss.

Finally, Mallyx revenants as well as necros running plague signet, curses traitline, staff and/or offhand dagger can all benefit from conditions applied.

Sorry for the long post, I just got a little carried away there. Anyway, I think the game is at a good place right now, for the most part, but I just want to say that it isn’t usually the condis alone that are causing issues for people.

The issues that I am hearing about are conditions being combined with the ridiculous amount of CC which is currently in the game. This is what is preventing people from cleansing the condis and/or evading the attacks. I have learned to adapt to this; I always run a build with lots of stability and condi cleanses, although personally, I still think the CC should be toned down a bit.

However, power-based builds with lots of CC will do the exact same thing, usually in less time. So IMO, we should be talking about the CC, not the condis.

Condi too strong!

hotcarl.8621:

Sorry for the long post, I just got a little carried away there. Anyway, I think the game is at a good place right now, for the most part, but I just want to say that it isn’t usually the condis alone that are causing issues for people.

The issues that I am hearing about are conditions being combined with the ridiculous amount of CC which is currently in the game. This is what is preventing people from cleansing the condis and/or evading the attacks. I have learned to adapt to this; I always run a build with lots of stability and condi cleanses, although personally, I still think the CC should be toned down a bit.

However, power-based builds with lots of CC will do the exact same thing, usually in less time. So IMO, we should be talking about the CC, not the condis.

I would respond to your posts, but everything you said was already adressed in this thread, I won’t repeat myself.

Also, if you haven’t figured people actualy complain about Carrion/Viper builds, which aren’t pure condi, they apply condi pressure by the way.

Supreme.3164:

Salamander.2504:

Supreme, I don’t play any condi builds, man. I just deal with it. Nothing I said is based on my “ego,” and I haven’t told anyone to “L2P”. Do you think we can keep the discussion civil without going ad hominem?

As for your specific gripes:
1) Yeah druid has a lot of daze, but you’re problem is CC, not condi, and I agree that CC in PvP has become too frequent with HoT elite specs.
2) Yeah rev is pretty strong, but it’s hard to argue the problem is in their auto-attack…
3) Agreed that reaper Deathly Chill trait could use a damage reduction. If you look in my post history, I’ve proposed to reduce the scaling from 3.0 to 2.5.
4) Soldier runes rock, man.

I didn’t quote you because I wasn’t answering to you, was referring to this @ragnarok guy who keeps telling other to l2p when most top players agree that cc/condi spamm is out of control, I mean just take a look at current team compositions.

It’s not like you get outplayed and you must accept your defeat, from one side you get dazed for 2s every 5s or immobilized/crippled then you get feared/chilled/tormented to death and with soldier runes you still can’t do anything, you get swamped by several stacks of condis while losing control of your character

On a point you dodge left and you get dazed lock from the right, you cleanse that torment/chill combo and another comes 2s later +immobilize/crippled/fear, you use another stun break trying to move and you get caught by a well of gravity followed by more fear/chill spamm…seriously ridicolous

I’m confused… Are you generally talking about conditions as a whole or are you talking about damaging conditions? I have no opinion one way or the other about disabling conditions. I realize they can be strong to some builds just like damaging conditions can be but the game I pvpd in prior to GW was heavily WoW and i felt that GW was rather tame In regards to CC comparatively.

And condi pressure is different than pressure in general how? I mean, if it’s condi pressure or regular pressure… It’s pressure and it’s meant to be debilitating. I’m not sure how relevant the commentator’s comments on this point since if it would have just been power damage pressure no one would bat an eyelash at it?

So, Supreme, what you ultimately want is condition damage to have a passive soft counter similar to how toughness is to power damage and for CC to be less prevalent OR for people to have more ways to passively counter CC like a diminishing returns?

It is L2P when you die to condi because your build doesn’t compensate for it. If you DO compensate for it in your build and die, accept that improvements need to be made to your playstyle or maybe even your build. Or maybe you were relying on your team to punish conditions or remove them from you and THEY need to L2P.

If you die to conditions “SPAM” it was likely more than one person using condi on you and in which case… Two efficient zerk builds not going to do something similar to you? I don’t know, maybe I’m not good at this game but that seems irrelevant at this point.

People are getting beaten up in ranked arena —> “it’s not my fault, I’m a good player”. Yeah…. “it’s the games fault”:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
Please, people, play with a profession that suits you, you really think that you can counter zerker and condi builds at the same time? You are getting illusions. Be good in zerk “mode”, or in condi “mode”, and kite the other player faster!
My personal opinion, I’m playing 3 profession, DH main, the other 2 are Revenant and Reaper, and guess what, I don’t have problem with them, each 3 has different play stile, so learn them! I had to learn Reaper and Revenant, and it wasn’t easy, I assure you!

Supreme.3164:

NeXeD.3042:

Firebird.8324:

Condi from Reaper isn’t that bad because reaper has no disengage mechanic, start with zero DS, and don’t have terribly high sustain with crazy nerfed blighter’s boon.

The build that SHOULD get nerfed is the CRAZY condi/high damage/insane sustain shiro/malyx herald rev build, this one http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Mallyx I mean, it’s just perfect, it has like, everything. Just run 2 of those herald builds and a tempest with a druid watching home and then whatever the kitten u want as a fifth and GG u win.

Plus mallyx revs and tempests beat the kitten out of reapers.

Tempest doesn’t beat any decent reaper at high level , 1vs1 and with the tempest using diamond skin. Assuming the ele using d/f earth then he won’t have the dmg to down the reaper before somebody comes to help the reaper and even in those “rare” occasions that you face full condi team, 1-2 carrion reapers are still able to break through diamond skin so…

your statement that tempest beats reaper only counts in hotjoin (barely) or extremely low level of pvp where nobody rotate

Even against carrion all the tempest has to do is kite when the reaper goes into rs and he can’t do crap to the reaper. I’m dont agree with equally skilled condi reaper beating an equally skilled tempest, and although I wouldn’t call myself a super skilled pvper, I wouldn’t call myself low level either.

nerf revenant bullkitten and its all good

GW2 home of low risk high reward play style (aka Boring)

NeXeD.3042:

I agree let’s make everyone invincible toughness tanks that apparently no longer need vitality to counter condi. Or condi clears.

It’s not a weird question. If anet balances for the soloq population the high end pvp will suffer and anets esports goal would be impossible.

lol not to mention that “Balancing around soloQ” is actually impossible. When more people start actually caring about team comps, counters, map-positioning etc. maybe the e-sports dream will live, as of now no-one seems to give a kitten about getting better or learning the game.

plex.6305:

GW2 home of low risk high reward play style (aka Boring)

It was not pre HoT release but ANet decided to balance it so Elite Specs were by design more powerful than non-elites (this is validated by the current PvP meta). PvP in this game is defined by the meta and they completely wiped the old meta effectively destroying all the balance they spent years to achieve.

It is one of the most asinine things I’ve seen a game studio do. No doubt it was done to help push HoT sales, but look at the cost. The best Elite Spec builds should stand toe to toe with old meta builds not wipe them out entirely.

People are leaving the game because they loved playing certain classes they can no longer play. Pre-HoT it was just about minor tweaks as patches came, but now it’s most often playing an entirely different way. Again, it’s just asinine.

NeXeD.3042:

Supreme.3164:

NeXeD.3042:

Firebird.8324:

Condi from Reaper isn’t that bad because reaper has no disengage mechanic, start with zero DS, and don’t have terribly high sustain with crazy nerfed blighter’s boon.

The build that SHOULD get nerfed is the CRAZY condi/high damage/insane sustain shiro/malyx herald rev build, this one http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Herald_-_Condition_Mallyx I mean, it’s just perfect, it has like, everything. Just run 2 of those herald builds and a tempest with a druid watching home and then whatever the kitten u want as a fifth and GG u win.

Plus mallyx revs and tempests beat the kitten out of reapers.

Tempest doesn’t beat any decent reaper at high level , 1vs1 and with the tempest using diamond skin. Assuming the ele using d/f earth then he won’t have the dmg to down the reaper before somebody comes to help the reaper and even in those “rare” occasions that you face full condi team, 1-2 carrion reapers are still able to break through diamond skin so…

your statement that tempest beats reaper only counts in hotjoin (barely) or extremely low level of pvp where nobody rotate

Even against carrion all the tempest has to do is kite when the reaper goes into rs and he can’t do crap to the reaper. I’m dont agree with equally skilled condi reaper beating an equally skilled tempest, and although I wouldn’t call myself a super skilled pvper, I wouldn’t call myself low level either.

Again that rare 1vs1 condi build vs hardcounter only happens in hotjoin and low level MMR where nobody rotates, 3-4 players zerg bosses or cap a point.
At “my” level, a decent necro won’t spend more than 20s if he finds me defending close, if he’s the necro pushing far alone and if I have slotted DS.

You accomplish nothing if you can’t actually kill quickly the necro, something which doesn’t happen before help comes his direction at high MMR, immediately there your DS becomes useless

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/v/27937802 2x DS lose, watch EU esl, again 2x DS (purple noise) lose ( badly lose) to reaper/rev comp.

Simple solution: make vitality reduce condition damage.

Condis counter toughness.

Vitality counters conditions.

Power counters vitality.

Toughness counters power.

Simple. =o

Vitality already counters is in a sort of way. And this this The meta tight now. Adapt to it or lose, meta change all The time, next time you want to nerf direct dmg and so on…

All jobs have tools to cleanse conditions. They aren’t horribly bad to deal with if you have some ability that will cleanse and you keep an eye on the conditions on you. Save it for heavy bleeds\burns\chills. Otherwise, if you are a melee and you run into an Engi or staff Necro lets say, just run the other way.

benhamann.9570:

All jobs have tools to cleanse conditions. They aren’t horribly bad to deal with if you have some ability that will cleanse and you keep an eye on the conditions on you. Save it for heavy bleeds\burns\chills. Otherwise, if you are a melee and you run into an Engi or staff Necro lets say, just run the other way.

No not all classes have adequate condi removal at their disposal.

Azukas.1426:

benhamann.9570:

All jobs have tools to cleanse conditions. They aren’t horribly bad to deal with if you have some ability that will cleanse and you keep an eye on the conditions on you. Save it for heavy bleeds\burns\chills. Otherwise, if you are a melee and you run into an Engi or staff Necro lets say, just run the other way.

No not all classes have adequate condi removal at their disposal.

Which ones?

ragnarokda.1805:

Crinn.7864:

NeXeD.3042:

Toughness is a semi counter to power, vitality is a semi counter to condi.

Toughness is partial mitigation. Vit is just a raw TTK increase.

Neither are counters. Countering implies negation of a mechanic. Cleansing is a counter to condi. Blocks are a counter to power.

The value of toughness is that it’s constant partial mitigation. Against a single power attack the value of toughness is marginal. Over the course of the fight however toughness adds up to a lot of mitigated damage. Toughness works great against sustained pressure as it decreases the amount of healing required to keep up with the pressure.
This is why cleric support guards are so vulnerable to power spikes despite having some of the highest toughness in game, yet at the same time are nearly impossible to kill by attrition. (which is a counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim because spikes are nearly always done with power attacks, yet the high-toughness support guard is extremely vulnerable to spikes.)

Vitality is another story. Vit merely gives a increase in health pool. This is great against burst (from anything) but is terrible as a sustain because it doesn’t actually mitigate any damage, and a large health pool also means you need way more healing to replenish.
This is why Carrion necros (high vit, low tough)almost never manage to completely top off their health pool in combat, but almost never get spiked to death. (which is counter example to the “toughness counters power” claim, since most spikes are done with power yet the low toughness Carrion Necro can’t realistically be spiked.)

The only way you could argue that Toughness is a counter to power is if you believe that high toughness prevents death by power. This is also a fallacy, as toughness only really decreases the effectiveness of attrition by power attacks, and even then only if you have the heal capabilities to back it up.

ragnarokda.1805:

That’s the point he’s trying to make with “vitality counters condi” is that no matter how much health you have, condi deals the same.

So if you have 12k health, 1k/s condi will kill you in 12 seconds. But if you have 20k health, it’ll take that SAME condi 20s instead of 12s to kill you.

However, with power damage, vitality is a much smaller cushion if you don’t have toughness coupled with it because even though you have more health, you’re going to be getting hit HARDER without toughness or something like protection.

Vitality is a equal cushion.
A power attack dealing 1k damage with a 1sec cast would take 12 seconds to kill a 12k HP target and 20 seconds to kill a 20k HP target. Exactly the same TTK as condi.

Saying “well toughness decreases power damage, and thus increases TTK against power without a vitality increase” doesn’t all of a sudden make vitality a counter to condi, and it sure as hell doesn’t make vitality less effective against power.

In fact toughness just augments the effectiveness of vitality against power.

This guy is in the right. But with everything said I still don’t think toughness affecting conditions is the answer. Maybe have protection work for condi, too? I mean, it kind of makes sense.

imo protection should affect condi. They would probably want to drop the mitigation provided by protection somewhat and poassibly reduce it duration, if that change went through.

Alternatively it would have been interesting if they made resistance work like prot but for condis. The duration and availability of resistance would need to go up naturally, but it would be interesting.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Azukas.1426:

I also noticed everyone has purposely not talked about week 2 of EU pro league.

How many times did you hear Jebro say “The condi pressure”

And why is condi pressure a problem? Sounds to me like it’s exactly what DoTs are supposed to do. Condition builds are supposed to wear you down.

Draygo.9473:

Part of the problem with conditions in my opinion is the delayed feedback from being hit by the skill. For example warrior’s pin down. People do not connect this skill as being a huge threat outside its immobilize. But it does 9k damage over time from a properly setup condi warrior build.

I don’t think for a lot of people get the idea that they need to dodge pin down. They may think- I have to dodge or I’ll be immobilized. Instead of- I have to dodge pin down or die.

Compare that to kill shot where you have the immediate feedback of that huge hit.

I don’t think it’s a fixable problem.

This is 100% truth. I’ve been saying it for a long time; conditions seem overpowered to the uneducated because there’s no big damage number that pops up when you get hit, so you don’t recognize how much damage you actually just got hit for. They don’t recognize any particular skill as being a heavy hitter, so they don’t see any issue until the stacks are high, but then they don’t know where to attribute it.

I used to see it all the time back when I ran condi necro: people ate attack after attack without even attempting to mitigate. I’m positive that once I start running condi Reaper (I’m enjoying Power too much atm), I’ll see the exact same thing still.

When you facetank a few dozen attacks, don’t you think you should die?

While I do agree that condi damage is out of control due to the sheer amount of condis that can be applied at once on a single toon and how high they stack, there is an actual solution to the problem you are stating and it is, in fact, very simple: greyed out or colored HP bar/circle. You could even go as far as color coding the damage according to the type of condi.

You have 10K Hp, you get hit with 3 conditions that will sum up to a total of say 5K HP (if left uncleansed)… grey out 50% of the HP circle and begin to tick down. Its that simple, there’s a visual queue equivalent to big numbers or the HP circle dropping when you get hit with a power build.

Should be simple to implement, and its been suggested before. Why it still hasn’t been applied is beyond me.

Vitality doesn’t counter conditions more than it does power.

In fact, one could even argue that Vitality is less effective against conditions than against power. This is because the more Vitality you have, the more HP/s you heal out of combat, and conditions due to their lingering effect delay out of combat regen a lot more than direct damage does thus reducing the amount of HP you heal between combat which is proportional to your vitality.

Actually condi is a real problem in pvp:

1) has all if condi players said “if you want to counter condi go cleanse”. I have tried a condi cleanse tempest build (soldier rune+ Cleansing water+ Invigoratting torrents+ Etheral removal+Signet of water etc etc). As you imagine i cleanse a lot but it´s not sufficient, after 20-30 condi cleanse, i take chill,burn,cripple,confu,torment etc etc and i die fastly. Conclusion: ennemies spam condi, i survive until i can t cleanse i will die in 3 sec. Ok all the 5 mates have to play tempest removal and why not we can survive to the condi pressure.

2) we have two types of condi: condi damage and alteration (to simplify).
Normally condi builds have access to good condi damage. And all builds could have access to alterations. But it´s not like this. All condi are just for condi builds and the others builds have not a lot of solutions. Why for example a power build have relatively poor access to weakness, imo, cripple, chill? Condi and power could do the same amount of damage, why give to condi builds more alteration that kill power?

3) condi vs power? When someone block, immune or what, you can do 0 power damage (there arenot a lot of unblokable skill in the game) but condi continue to kill the target during an immune… Is it normal? Protection: -30% power damage+ weakness+toughness are good way to counter power damage but for condi? It´s easy for some professions to have protection, toughness or to put weakness, but for condi? It is actually not possible to counter the condi spam with cleanse. It´s not a question to counter all the condi damage (they have to put some damage) but actually condi spam is so far higher than cleansing.

4) the most powerful condi counter actually are condi build tools… Malyx legend and corruption tree allow a large amount of resistance stacking. So rev could spam condi and has an immunity to them. Cool.
Reaper has a large amount of condi and the most important condi transfert, is it normal?

The problem is Anet never balance condi. At the begining condi suks, actually is so Op. It´s time to find something…

Suggestions: – protection reduce also condi damage
- weakness has to inflict condi not just power damage
- gives to power builds access to alterations (weakness,chill etc)
- gives more condi counter to all builds (like blocks for power damage)
Etc etc

Strages.2950:

While I do agree that condi damage is out of control due to the sheer amount of condis that can be applied at once on a single toon and how high they stack, there is an actual solution to the problem you are stating and it is, in fact, very simple: greyed out or colored HP bar/circle. You could even go as far as color coding the damage according to the type of condi.

You have 10K Hp, you get hit with 3 conditions that will sum up to a total of say 5K HP (if left uncleansed)… grey out 50% of the HP circle and begin to tick down. Its that simple, there’s a visual queue equivalent to big numbers or the HP circle dropping when you get hit with a power build.

Should be simple to implement, and its been suggested before. Why it still hasn’t been applied is beyond me.

The grey out may not have been done because of technical reasons. Determining the future damage dealt requires calculations, which adds complexity which is more work.

Additionally such a system isn’t even accurate since the damage dealt by condi can change between ticks due to gaining of boons. I.e you get a condi on you, the bar does it’s grey out, but then you gain the resistance boon and now that grey out is wrong.

And lets be honest, if you look at the dominant “condi builds” such as rev and reaper, they are not actually full condi builds. They are doing half and sometimes more of their damage in power attacks.

This is the problem, since a mixed power/condi build requires the target to have both cleanses and blocks/toughness/prot to defend against.

Revenants are the godkitten problem.

I don’t like condis bc it just seems like there is just so much condi pressure from range. You can have some peeps just drop condi bombs from 1200 range. Try dealing with that when trying to kite some melee spec that’s trying to cc lock you or kitten.

My tl:dr from this thread: Please Anet, do something to Warriors!

This game turned into a condi spam (looking at you Rev!) once they got shut down from competitive scene. If you want conditions to keep on rampage like this, we need the shout warrior back! Tempests are trying to fill in the role but due to low health pool and amount of CC in game right now, is quite easily to eliminate them from fight on early stage.

I think the biggest offenders are brokenants, signetper (also called frostfire reaper) and engis in general. Add to that that everyone and their mothers who arent condi are going bunkers, and what do bunkers use as damage? You guessed right; doom/geomancy, which devolves into even more people having to trait even more condi cleanse, cuz otherwise bunkers who should have no killing potential would win the attrition war if left long enough.

Condition damage is more prevalent now because it’s easier to win with. Many players are just bad at fighting against it. There’s a reason you’re able to look at the other team’s players before the match starts. If you see a bunch of Necros (harder to tell with Revs since power is still quite good), maybe quickly swap some condi cleanse into your build.

Anyway, that’s why you’re seeing lots of it. Spamming conditions against bad players makes for easy kills.

Fortus.6175:

I think the biggest offenders are brokenants, signetper (also called frostfire reaper) and engis in general. Add to that that everyone and their mothers who arent condi are going bunkers, and what do bunkers use as damage? You guessed right; doom/geomancy, which devolves into even more people having to trait even more condi cleanse, cuz otherwise bunkers who should have no killing potential would win the attrition war if left long enough.

At least reapers can be focused down easily due to zero mobility not to mention only 1 heal spell and no blocks. Engis don’t seem that bad. Marauder scrappers are strong but they don’t feel “broken”.

Revenants have 3 heals, on-demand quickness, the ability to all but guarantee rezzing a downed ally, stability out the kitten, a dodge roll with no CD that refills endurance, the longest block in-game as well as unrelenting assault for temporary invincibility, and just as much condi pressure as frostfire Reapers.

That my friends, is kittening broken. Anyone that thinks otherwise is in denial or just plain kittening stupid.