Guild Wars 2

StickerHappy.8052:

Laraley.7695:

StickerHappy.8052:

I will tell you now. Reaper would suck big time.

A profession which whose design is centered around chill has its design functioning only 50% against certain classes.

What a joke.

Thief is the only profession that gets affectes by chill less than others.

Necro as a profession is not centered around chill, only the elite specialization is. You can still have access to old weapons and have two more trait lines if you wish to play this.

Yeap, thats why I said Reaper. So are you saying that specialization mechanic/design (CHILL) is 50% less effective vs thieves?

You said against certain classes, not one class.

I honestly think you just have the need to complain about thieves no matter what it is. Maybe it’s because you play mesmer (?), maybe you just really don’t like the class, I don’t know. It was in game but it was removed, I guess they had a reason for it. No, I don’t think a class or a mechanics of a class/spec will be countered just because one profession gets affected less by one condition. The spec is not only about chill, it brigns some useful things for necros and could potentially help condition necro, too.

Laraley.7695:

StickerHappy.8052:

Laraley.7695:

StickerHappy.8052:

I will tell you now. Reaper would suck big time.

A profession which whose design is centered around chill has its design functioning only 50% against certain classes.

What a joke.

Thief is the only profession that gets affectes by chill less than others.

Necro as a profession is not centered around chill, only the elite specialization is. You can still have access to old weapons and have two more trait lines if you wish to play this.

Yeap, thats why I said Reaper. So are you saying that specialization mechanic/design (CHILL) is 50% less effective vs thieves?

You said against certain classes, not one class.

I honestly think you just have the need to complain about thieves no matter what it is. Maybe it’s because you play mesmer (?), maybe you just really don’t like the class, I don’t know. It was in game but it was removed, I guess they had a reason for it. No, I don’t think a class or a mechanics of a class/spec will be countered just because one profession gets affected less by one condition. The spec is not only about chill, it brigns some useful things for necros and could potentially help condition necro, too.

certain classes = thieves, potentially revenant. Who else am I talking about?

Dude, where is the complaining there? I play thief too, Asking for all classes to be affected by chill is wrong? Maining a mesmer does not have to do anything with it. I have no problem with thieves, they kill me sometimes then I kill them too, so I am not whining. It could guardians that has chill immunity in weapon skills, and I will say it about that. It just happens to be its thieves, so no worries. If it strikes you that way I do apologize in advance.

But how many traits does the reaper have that is chill centered? I mean its a waste.

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

-snip

I never said that hitting a stealthed thief was guaranteed, just said it can be done but if you want to call that contradicting myself then whatever. I was in dramatic fashion stating with just using your head you can counter stealth with the most simple attack in the game on a class I have very little experience playing.

Noone is saying that stealth makes you invincible, where did you get that? Invincible means = 0 damage taken. Cmon flop some more.

Some things said in this thread…

“2)You can’t interact with the thief once he’s stealthed, that’s basically invulnerability”

“a period of time where thief cannot be harmed, that’s invulnerability in practice.”

And that’s just 2 instances of people likening it to invulnerability in a quick skim.

But in the end instead of QQing on the forums when I lose to something I just look at it as a challenge to overcome instead of crying over it.

That is not invulnerability. Really? So You can’t AoE bomb him for a period of time? Again you are contradicting yourself. So go ahead and tell your fellow thieves that AoE is not a way to deal with stealth, since you are invulnerable for a period of time right?

No, that’s quotes from other people on this thread likening it to invulnerability. Iam stating quite the opposite.

That is why I told you, stop listening to those posts, but provide constructive feedback on non exaggerated posts. I am really sorry but infuriates me for you thieves to always express you have it worse than other classes.

I don’t think thieves have it worse than other classes. They are however hamstringed into one role. You can’t run Support on them. Controller is pretty much a joke. Condis? Pfft, Necro and Ranger are just two classes out of the 4 total classes I have even played on this game that easily beat Thief in conditions. The bleed stacking on pistols is crap compared to a Ranger flanking with SB.

Personally I wouldn’t mind seeing more skills like Sic ‘Em for countering stealth but I’d want to see the Thief have more viability in other roles in exchange.

Sure people who main thieves get defensive when other people kitten and complain about the two defenses they have, stealth and evade. And even for a lot of evasion you have to run S/D and sacrifice some of that spike damage. Other than that thieves have next to no damage mitigation and garbage HP so escape is all a thief really has for survivability. Elementalists have the same problem sure but they also have tons of defense in the right attunement.

Also thief is not a “takes no skill” class. If a thief gets the drop on you then yes they maul your face off. If not then they can get spanked pretty hard.

Sure my post was a tongue in cheek way of calling out crybabies on here that act like there is absolutely nothing that can be done once a thief goes into stealth but there can be. Nobody ever told anyone you have to just stand around and wait for that backstab. Be proactive against it and sometimes you get that laugh when you see the poor little thief laying on the ground trying to heal his meager HP to get back up before getting facemelted.

Okay, I respect that, but please do provide something:

For example, If thief retains stealth, then provide an effective counterplay.

Like what is the counterplay of mesmers on no reveal on block? our block is not full 3 seconds.

Waste an invuln? Seriously I am not asking you guys to be nerfed, but your fellow thieves are denying the fact that issues like this exist. So, For issues like this, how do we handle this? Say l2p to me?

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

StickerHappy.8052:

@Shadow

Yes I am calling you out.

http://www.twitch.tv/tarcisanastasis/c/3038277

00:35 second mark, do you notice Caed does not stay put inside SR? so Where’s your argument tha:t

A.) You don’t move fast enough?
B.) AOE counters stealth

So, let me get this straight. You’re attempting to invalidate Shadow’s “counter” to stealth as a whole by basing it against a single utility skill that’s defaulted to a 60-second cooldown period?

First of all, Shadow Refuge is the exception. All other stealth skills last for a maximum of 3-4 seconds. In order to get the backstab, the thief must catch up to you AND flank you before stealth runs out.

Secondly, stacking stealth uses utilities or the MAJORITY of a thief’s initiative. If he does so, he’s in hot water if his initial attack goes badly.

Thirdly, a smart “assassin” will Shadow Refuge where he cannot be seen. That’s the one method of stealthing that there isn’t anything you can really do. But you can’t do much about being Moa blindsided either. That’s how the game works.

Fourthly, unless you are forced to, why even bother with a thief when you are not on point and you see him go into Shadow Refuge? He’s stuck there for 4 seconds. Book it to a point. Make him chase you. That is unless you just want to go thief-hunting. But that keeps you off-point.

And finally, do NOT AoE where you saw the thief enter stealth. AoE yourself. In fact, AoE behind yourself, and back into it while auto-attacking. Will it save you from the almighty backstab? By itself, probably not. But it may make the thief think twice. It will punish him. And if you keep on the move as suggested, the thief may just run out of stealth before he takes your back. Remember… 3-4 seconds is the duration for stealth skills without COSTLY stacking. And also remember that every dodge you take creates distance and runs down the stealth timer.

Not trying to say there’s a perfect solution to fighting stealth, but Shadow Refuge is an exception. Don’t base your anti-stealth tactics on it. It’s a single skill, not the entirety of the mechanic.

Ps. Somebody mentioned putting a 3/4 second cast time on Headshot? Are thieves now clairvoyant? If not, they’d have to first recognize a situation they needed to interrupt, which can take fractions of a seconds by itself, send an electrical current from their brains to their fingers, AND wait another 3/4 of a second before the shot goes off? And that’s not even including latency. My goodness, what a thread this has turned into!

Kageseigi.2150:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Shadow

Yes I am calling you out.

http://www.twitch.tv/tarcisanastasis/c/3038277

00:35 second mark, do you notice Caed does not stay put inside SR? so Where’s your argument tha:t

A.) You don’t move fast enough?
B.) AOE counters stealth

So, let me get this straight. You’re attempting to invalidate Shadow’s “counter” to stealth as a whole by basing it against a single utility skill that’s defaulted to a 60-second cooldown period?

First of all, Shadow Refuge is the exception. All other stealth skills last for a maximum of 3-4 seconds. In order to get the backstab, the thief must catch up to you AND flank you before stealth runs out.

Secondly, stacking stealth uses utilities or the MAJORITY of a thief’s initiative. If he does so, he’s in hot water if his initial attack goes badly.

Thirdly, a smart “assassin” will Shadow Refuge where he cannot be seen. That’s the one method of stealthing that there isn’t anything you can really do. But you can’t do much about being Moa blindsided either. That’s how the game works.

Fourthly, unless you are forced to, why even bother with a thief when you are not on point and you see him go into Shadow Refuge? He’s stuck there for 4 seconds. Book it to a point. Make him chase you. That is unless you just want to go thief-hunting. But that keeps you off-point.

And finally, do NOT AoE where you saw the thief enter stealth. AoE yourself. In fact, AoE behind yourself, and back into it while auto-attacking. Will it save you from the almighty backstab? By itself, probably not. But it may make the thief think twice. It will punish him. And if you keep on the move as suggested, the thief may just run out of stealth before he takes your back. Remember… 3-4 seconds is the duration for stealth skills without COSTLY stacking.

Ps. Somebody mentioned putting a 3/4 second cast time on Headshot? Are thieves now clairvoyant? If not, they’d have to first recognize a situation they needed to interrupt, which can take fractions of a seconds by itself, send an electrical current from their brains to their fingers, AND wait another 3/4 of a second before the shot goes off? And that’s not even including latency. My goodness, what a thread this is!

SR is not the only that can cast stealth, right? The main point is, While in stealth you can avoid damage if you WANT to. Shadow was saying earlier that thieves cannot move fast enough

Sagat.3285:

Every class is not using initiative that’s the problem and thief resetting is intended design.

This made me lol irl.
I was just thinking about guardian spamming whirling wrath or a ranger spamming rapidfire

oscuro.9720:

Sagat.3285:

Every class is not using initiative that’s the problem and thief resetting is intended design.

This made me lol irl.
I was just thinking about guardian spamming whirling wrath or a ranger spamming rapidfire

How can you spam something with a cooldown?

When the entire agency of a fight rests with one person there is a major problem.

If you don’t understand or want to see this, I’m sorry, you’re just wrong.

Just to reiterate my earlier point tho: #casualwars2 so nothing will change, deal with it or just don’t play.

StickerHappy.8052:

Kageseigi.2150:

StickerHappy.8052:

@Shadow

Yes I am calling you out.

http://www.twitch.tv/tarcisanastasis/c/3038277

00:35 second mark, do you notice Caed does not stay put inside SR? so Where’s your argument tha:t

A.) You don’t move fast enough?
B.) AOE counters stealth

So, let me get this straight. You’re attempting to invalidate Shadow’s “counter” to stealth as a whole by basing it against a single utility skill that’s defaulted to a 60-second cooldown period?

First of all, Shadow Refuge is the exception. All other stealth skills last for a maximum of 3-4 seconds. In order to get the backstab, the thief must catch up to you AND flank you before stealth runs out.

Secondly, stacking stealth uses utilities or the MAJORITY of a thief’s initiative. If he does so, he’s in hot water if his initial attack goes badly.

Thirdly, a smart “assassin” will Shadow Refuge where he cannot be seen. That’s the one method of stealthing that there isn’t anything you can really do. But you can’t do much about being Moa blindsided either. That’s how the game works.

Fourthly, unless you are forced to, why even bother with a thief when you are not on point and you see him go into Shadow Refuge? He’s stuck there for 4 seconds. Book it to a point. Make him chase you. That is unless you just want to go thief-hunting. But that keeps you off-point.

And finally, do NOT AoE where you saw the thief enter stealth. AoE yourself. In fact, AoE behind yourself, and back into it while auto-attacking. Will it save you from the almighty backstab? By itself, probably not. But it may make the thief think twice. It will punish him. And if you keep on the move as suggested, the thief may just run out of stealth before he takes your back. Remember… 3-4 seconds is the duration for stealth skills without COSTLY stacking.

Ps. Somebody mentioned putting a 3/4 second cast time on Headshot? Are thieves now clairvoyant? If not, they’d have to first recognize a situation they needed to interrupt, which can take fractions of a seconds by itself, send an electrical current from their brains to their fingers, AND wait another 3/4 of a second before the shot goes off? And that’s not even including latency. My goodness, what a thread this is!

SR is not the only that can cast stealth, right? The main point is, While in stealth you can avoid damage if you WANT to. Shadow was saying earlier that thieves cannot move fast enough

Actually I said “sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage” meaning that sometimes the player’s reaction time might be off, not that the toon’s speed isn’t good enough.

As for counters as a mesmer, you have the same thing as a shadow step skill to put distance between you and your opponent. You have Decoy. I’ve seen Mesmers time it well and have my backstab just nail a clone while they get the advantage of stealth.

Every class in the game as an evade. Use it. There is also something in your keybindings that you can set to turning 180 degrees with a single key press to assist in turning. Backstab from the front is only half damage and still gives 5 seconds of Revealed. Like Kaseseigi said, you don’t have to stand there and wait to be backstabbed.

There is this show I used to watch called Burn Notice and I believe in the pilot there was some guy being threatened by some organized crime people. The main character makes mention of how people think the victims are supposed to do nothing and just wait around for the attack to come instead of preparing for it. He then proceeds to set up an ambush to counter the attack. Now I’m not saying to go set up an elaborate counter ambush but I am saying that you don’t have to just stand there waiting for the thief to engage you on their terms. You can even run away from the point if you think you will lose a 1v1 vs a thief who just stealthed. No reason to be inflexible and give the other team 5 points and a capped point.

As far as people talking about resetting the fight, it’s a mirror. When the thief goes into stealth and runs away to reset the fight the fight is also reset for the non-thief allowing their CDs and chance to heal.

StickerHappy.8052:

oscuro.9720:

Sagat.3285:

Every class is not using initiative that’s the problem and thief resetting is intended design.

This made me lol irl.
I was just thinking about guardian spamming whirling wrath or a ranger spamming rapidfire

How can you spam something with a cooldown?

He is probably saying something I have said before to others that when people playing other classes complain about thieves being able to spam I counter by saying “If you could spam abilities you would too”. Now imagine if those two classes had initiative and how often they would spam those attacks.

Actually I said “sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage” meaning that sometimes the player’s reaction time might be off, not that the toon’s speed isn’t good enough.

As for counters as a mesmer, you have the same thing as a shadow step skill to put distance between you and your opponent. You have Decoy. I’ve seen Mesmers time it well and have my backstab just nail a clone while they get the advantage of stealth.

Every class in the game as an evade. Use it. There is also something in your keybindings that you can set to turning 180 degrees with a single key press to assist in turning. Backstab from the front is only half damage and still gives 5 seconds of Revealed. Like Kaseseigi said, you don’t have to stand there and wait to be backstabbed.

There is this show I used to watch called Burn Notice and I believe in the pilot there was some guy being threatened by some organized crime people. The main character makes mention of how people think the victims are supposed to do nothing and just wait around for the attack to come instead of preparing for it. He then proceeds to set up an ambush to counter the attack. Now I’m not saying to go set up an elaborate counter ambush but I am saying that you don’t have to just stand there waiting for the thief to engage you on their terms. You can even run away from the point if you think you will lose a 1v1 vs a thief who just stealthed. No reason to be inflexible and give the other team 5 points and a capped point.

As far as people talking about resetting the fight, it’s a mirror. When the thief goes into stealth and runs away to reset the fight the fight is also reset for the non-thief allowing their CDs and chance to heal.

Dude trust me I have done all of that, I have 4k games, so please I would rather avoid the l2p argument.

The thing is, decoy and blink are on a cooldown system, just to avoid a simple BS which you could use multiple times (given you have initiative) okay I block you with sword 4, you won’t get revealed, meaning another BS can be used (you are still in stealth) so then I decoy, 40 sec cd untraited, You can stealth again right after that right? and return to point 1. I mean this is the counterplay I am looking for. Blink on the other hand, will gain me some distance yes, (But remember you are still stealthed because I blocked your attack) now add the insta daze steal to that to put pressure. Even if I manage to fight back, you can easily stealth back and reset the fight (not to mention to Ectoplasm you get)

Blinding powder is also a hard counter (ignore this, it will derail the thread)

The 180 degree statement you said, I would gladly take it BUT once someone is in stealth, you cant tell what they will do next, What If he just baited his BS and steal and and SB bursts you? (SB 2)

All of this are very easy to say on paper, but very hard to do in practice especially in higher MMR matches.

BOTTOM LINE As a shatter mesmer, assuming equally skilled mes and thief, the shatter mesmer will have to get really really lucky to land a burst that will kill the thief.

PS: Other mesmer builds like condi do fine.

I am happy to see you you standing up for what you believe in, OP.

I’ve made a thread discussing stealth discussing a potential way to bring balance to the mechanic, without hurting anyone or anything in any way.

…and still there is a huge uproar from thieves everywhere who rely on their stealth cushion to play pvp.

Just like in lord of the rings, you can’t part the guy from his invisibility ring, or else he gets all crazy and starts yelling my precious and kitten.

Thieves are the same way with stealth.

They get legitimately scared, because they are afraid of no longer being functional.

The defense aspects of stealth are in need of some balance…. not every class can retreat from a fight when they get in over their head without sacrificing some damage potential.

A warrior for example would need to have a different weapon set on if he wanted to have even remotely as much mobility and escape capability, and he would be sacrifing most of his damage potential in doing so.

All in all, I think your suggested nerfs are somewhat unwarranted, and some of what you have suggested will break stealth and make it unusable.

Since thieves pretty much rely on it, you are talking about breaking an entire profession.

While I do agree stealth is in need of some minor tweaks to tone down its defensive capabilities, I think you are trying to give someone a haircut with a flamethrower here.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I am happy to see you you standing up for what you believe in, OP.

I’ve made a thread discussing stealth discussing a potential way to bring balance to the mechanic, without hurting anyone or anything in any way.

…and still there is a huge uproar from thieves everywhere who rely on their stealth cushion to play pvp.

Just like in lord of the rings, you can’t part the guy from his invisibility ring, or else he gets all crazy and starts yelling my precious and kitten.

Thieves are the same way with stealth.

They get legitimately scared, because they are afraid of no longer being functional.

The defense aspects of stealth are in need of some balance…. not every class can retreat from a fight when they get in over their head without sacrificing some damage potential.

A warrior for example would need to have a different weapon set on if he wanted to have even remotely as much mobility and escape capability, and he would be sacrifing most of his damage potential in doing so.

All in all, I think your suggested nerfs are somewhat unwarranted, and some of what you have suggested will break stealth and make it unusable.

Since thieves pretty much rely on it, you are talking about breaking an entire profession.

While I do agree stealth is in need of some minor tweaks to tone down its defensive capabilities, I think you are trying to give someone a haircut with a flamethrower here.

Ye i agree with u.

thief is lame, OP and all but those fixes proposed by op won’t even remotrly fix its lameness neither its broken aspects tpvp wise.

the solution is to remove stealth camping

Make stealth no longer applicable after the first application (if u use HS over a blind field 3 times and get 5 secs of stealth, u get revealed right at the end of it, so u can’t stavk stealth again if u fail your opening)

Reveal after stealth application regardless if u hit or not.

Stealth capped at 5 secs.

now stealth is balanced, maybe doesn’t have obvious counterplay options but at least it’s not broken

thief is not op and stealth is not op. you can’t even cap and do damage while being stealthed.

Supreme.3164:

Regardless of what work or not, the aim of the thread is add counterplay to thief stealth.

There is no reason why a thief should remain stealthed while attacking a blocking target or a target that manage to dodge your backstab. It’s not fair that I use a high CD utility/skill and I still can’t hit the thief as he remains invisible even after the failure

There is no reason why a thief should be able to sit in stealth for as long as he can in order to recover , a period of time where thief cannot be harmed, that’s invulnerability in practice.

The thief can effectively avoid damage unless the enemy manages to land a lucky hit (which btw won’t reveal the thief from stealth)

Yes you can absolutely hit the thief, don’t be silly/whiny. Press your god kitten auto attack … believe it or not, thief is so much paper, few well-placed auto attacks are more than enough to gut it. Add a single fire/air proc and you’ve won….

FlawlezZ.3178:

thief is not op and stealth is not op. you can’t even cap and do damage while being stealthed.

This is a team game brah.

there’re other proffs built to play the “stay on point” game, doesn’t make thief any less op.

For the first year mesmer was like the most op kitten till they nerfed portal and time warp, tho it sucked at “capping the point”.

Guess why brah

ChoChoBo.6503:

Make Stealth a STACKED effect

• Every second of stealth obtained is equivalent to 1 stack of stealth.
• Every second spent in stealth removes one stack.
• Every physical hit received, removes one stack of stealth and therefore 1 second of duration.
• Losing all your stacks, means losing stealth. (Losing stealth via losing stacks doesn’t apply ‘Revealed’ debuff.)

This is a really interesting concept, but I think that cleaves, bouncing attacks (which will currently bounce to stealthed targets), and channels (which currently track stealthed targets) are too prevalent for this to work without other changes, like bumping stealth durations or rebalancing combo effects in smoke fields.

I think we’ve hit just about every ability a thief has in this thread now.

I think I even saw someone say pistol 5 is OP….

All this is now is kitten session about thieves from people who obviously need to l2p.

StickerHappy.8052:

SR is not the only that can cast stealth, right?

I’m sorry, I didn’t understand the question.

StickerHappy.8052:

The main point is, While in stealth you can avoid damage if you WANT to. Shadow was saying earlier that thieves cannot move fast enough

I can avoid all damage without stealth if I wanted to. I just hide at my spawn. Any profession can. When it comes to in-combat stealth, it depends on what the thief is trying to do.

If the thief is playing to kill the opponent, there’s no sure way to avoid damage. Not even in Shadow Refuge. He can always get AoE’d or knocked out of it. He can back himself into a “corner” when trying to avoid cleaving, then get cleaved anyway. If the thief is not using Shadow Refuge, then the clock is ticking. There’s no time to flank around danger in order to get the backstab… especially if the target is walking backwards while cleaving toward the thief. Not to mention if the target AoE’s himself.

If the thief is playing defensively, of course he has a much better shot at avoiding damage. But he’s harmless if he does that. Unless it’s Shadow Refuge, just wait him out.

The “avoiding damage” issue has less to do with stealth, and more to do with shadowstepping. If a thief wants to get close without damage, that’s what Steal/Shadow Shot/Infiltrator’s Strike/Infiltrator’s Arrow/Infiltrator’s Signet/Shadowstep are for. But those are normally used when the thief is completely visible. If Mug is traited, then stealing will reveal the thief if he was stealthed already. Basilisk Venom is also one of the keys to avoiding damage, and it has nothing to do with stealth.

I may be just a newbie thief, but the one reason stealth is important to me is because that’s where my damage skills come from. I’d be very happy to go without stealth if I could get the same damage by hitting the target from behind when visible. For a dagger/dagger thief, getting into stealth without utilities or dying is the real trick. I really don’t know how dagger/pistol thieves manage initiative well enough to sustain fights. When I try it, I’m lucky to get 2 stealth/backstab attempts (9-initiative each… out of a maximum of 15) before I have to consider retreating. And that’s if I DON’T take damage on the way to the target.

T raw.4658:

I think we’ve hit just about every ability a thief has in this thread now.

I think I even saw someone say pistol 5 is OP….

All this is now is kitten session about thieves from people who obviously need to l2p.

I’m one of the people who believe thieves’ stealth needs to be nerfed, and I’ll duel you any day of the week to prove that i don’t need to learn to play.

I spend 5 minutes reading latest post in this thread: all i want to say is, ‘more constructive posts’ : Good Job!.

I hope Arena net appreciate this and make serious change to thief profession because this problem will never go away and will only punish this game more.

That is all.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

T raw.4658:

I think we’ve hit just about every ability a thief has in this thread now.

I think I even saw someone say pistol 5 is OP….

All this is now is kitten session about thieves from people who obviously need to l2p.

I’m one of the people who believe thieves’ stealth needs to be nerfed, and I’ll duel you any day of the week to prove that i don’t need to learn to play.

u can’t kill a theif who dosen’t want to fight is that what u want to change ?

Shadow.1345:

StickerHappy.8052:

oscuro.9720:

Sagat.3285:

Every class is not using initiative that’s the problem and thief resetting is intended design.

This made me lol irl.
I was just thinking about guardian spamming whirling wrath or a ranger spamming rapidfire

How can you spam something with a cooldown?

He is probably saying something I have said before to others that when people playing other classes complain about thieves being able to spam I counter by saying “If you could spam abilities you would too”. Now imagine if those two classes had initiative and how often they would spam those attacks.

Not spam and the effectiveness of the skill is reduced due to initiative, thief has a greater control over it’s weapons skill and cast times are not harsh I would love to have initiative for my necro and ranger. That control is why I main one backed up by the active playstyle played right is very rewarding. Every class should use initiative I’m dead serious.

On topic about stealth like in another thread thief wouldn’t stay overtime in stealth if it wasn’t dangerous to come out same for “resetting”, the bigger the fights the less effectiveness even in 2v2, he won’t be dueling you unless he knows he has a chance, the counter play is revealed,team fights and obviously not the AI syndrome, it’s not your fault you want to play zerker there is always something superior somehown.

Off-topic devs don’t forget to add Trapper Runes in PvP.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

T raw.4658:

I think we’ve hit just about every ability a thief has in this thread now.

I think I even saw someone say pistol 5 is OP….

All this is now is kitten session about thieves from people who obviously need to l2p.

I’m one of the people who believe thieves’ stealth needs to be nerfed, and I’ll duel you any day of the week to prove that i don’t need to learn to play.

It really is L2P issue. Yeah you’ll beat him, what will you prove? You’ll prove that thief is not the solution for every build and you are too thick to realize that.

Stealth has been nerfed (revealed) since launch. Currently the revealed buff lasts full auto-attack chain. Buffing it anymore would be ludicrous.

Channeling skills are following thieves in stealth. Homing skills (like guardian’s blinding blade) are perfectly capable at pinpointing the thief’s location. Fire/Air procs show exactly where the thief is in stealth, while the thief is taking damage. So don’t tell me its god mode/invulnerability.

And lets not forget that every block/invulnerability channel lasts longer than stealth. So why do you even care if a thief is smacking you from behind procing your blocks? Its not like you can turn around and break your cast. Your channel has to finish in order to use the next skill. Or you get interrupted, somehow.

As a thief myself I’ve probably been killed in stealth more often than I have been killed while revealed. However sometimes i get lucky port and manage to heal up in my downed state before you guys notice im down

Evidently this is a L2P issue. Every skilled player I fought and lost against has been able to trace me with relative ease.

And if you don’t have a thief and you haven’t played in the recent months, just quit this thread. You know jack about thief. To all of you I can only say “try hards”.

And don’t you forget the fact that most blocking skills at launch used to root the caster in place. Now that you move around like mosquitoes its a bit hard for the thief to tell when exactly you are blocking, especially as asura engineer on wrench. This skill is pure hell and with really kittenty tell … with a joke of a cooldown…

Extreme.8350:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

T raw.4658:

I think we’ve hit just about every ability a thief has in this thread now.

I think I even saw someone say pistol 5 is OP….

All this is now is kitten session about thieves from people who obviously need to l2p.

I’m one of the people who believe thieves’ stealth needs to be nerfed, and I’ll duel you any day of the week to prove that i don’t need to learn to play.

u can’t kill a theif who dosen’t want to fight is that what u want to change ?

Its more about thieves bailing from a fight that they should have died in by abusing stealth’s defensive capabilities….

Forcing players to win a guessing game to get a kill, without even sacrificing damage potential is absurd.

I just want the guessing game toned down a bit.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Lets-talk-about-Stealth/first

Ravenmoon.5318:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

T raw.4658:

I think we’ve hit just about every ability a thief has in this thread now.

I think I even saw someone say pistol 5 is OP….

All this is now is kitten session about thieves from people who obviously need to l2p.

I’m one of the people who believe thieves’ stealth needs to be nerfed, and I’ll duel you any day of the week to prove that i don’t need to learn to play.

It really is L2P issue. Yeah you’ll beat him, what will you prove? You’ll prove that thief is not the solution for every build and you are too thick to realize that.

Stealth has been nerfed (revealed) since launch. Currently the revealed buff lasts full auto-attack chain. Buffing it anymore would be ludicrous.

Channeling skills are following thieves in stealth. Homing skills (like guardian’s blinding blade) are perfectly capable at pinpointing the thief’s location. Fire/Air procs show exactly where the thief is in stealth, while the thief is taking damage. So don’t tell me its god mode/invulnerability.

As a thief myself I’ve probably been killed in stealth more often than I have been killed while revealed. However sometimes i get lucky port and manage to heal up in my downed state before you guys notice im down

Evidently this is a L2P issue. Every skilled player I fought and lost against has been able to trace me with relative ease.

And if you don’t have a thief and you haven’t played in the recent months, just quit this thread. You know jack about thief. To all of you I can only say “try hards”.

Again…. you are barking up the wrong tree here.

Stealth as a mechanic is used to make players unsure of where you are.

If players could easly tell where you are, stealth would be pointless.

Think about what I just said. It is not possible for you to accurately predict where a stealthed opponent is 100% of the time or else stealth simply would not work.

What I want personally is the defensive guessing game aspect of stealth to be toned down.
I have nothing in line with the OP’s suggestion other than the fact that stealth, particularly with thieves, needs to be tweaked.

…just something as simple as showing damage numbers when you strike a stealthed opponent.

Why are players forced to play guessing games to ensure a kill?

Also, I know about many ways to spot stealthed opponents.

I just want the dmg splash for melee attacks to show up.

If you swipe a melee weapon at a stealthed opponent, and you hit him….. you are going to deal that damage whether or not numbers show up.

If it is an auto attack, you can tell if you struck something based on your auto-attack chain progressing, for other attacks you will be building adrenaline on warrior or watching your justice effect rise on guardian, if you hit a stealthed opponent with a fire or air sigil, you can see the sigil proc at the opponent’s location, etc.

In all of these cases, having a damage splash would change nothing for a player who knows where to look.

This is not a l2p issue, and anyone spouting off that nonsense is too afraid that “their precious” might be in need of a nerf.

Because stealth. Not active blocking

serenke.4806:

Why not just remove initiative altogether and give thieves proper cooldowns to manage, just like everyone else has to?

Every class should use initiative that was the first mistake in balance CD’s are getting old and terrible.

Btw should affect LF and adrenaline gain too?? Will we add weapon swap and kits too??

I’m curious for the trait revamp.
Stealth/Reset at will, ticking condi cleanse and heal, and 50% damage reduction does indeed sound a bit too powerful to me, especially when most classes don’t even have access to reveal thieves.
And that’s just from one traitline <_<"

We’ll see, but I’m expecting the worst. Good thing I have my thief fully equipped and ready to play :P

No sane thief will invest in shadow arts. For the simple reason that thieves atm are either go burst or go home. Nothing else works…i assume after the trait update thieves will go deadly arts/acrobatics/trickery and/or replacing one of those for critical strikes(for panic strike and hidden killer/executioner) and overall higher critical rate.

Shadow arts will still make no sense in conquest unless you really want to kitten off someone but you can forget about winning the game.

To all the people who say “well if the thief disengages, then you just won the fight,” that’s oftentimes not true because of the thief’s superior mobility and ability to +1 other fights.

Let’s say the thief hops to your home point and starts to decap. You’re playing your A game, so you see the thief heading there and get to home point before he finishes decapping. You fight a bit, outplay him, and land a nasty burst. He stealths + disengages. At this point, you’re in a bind: The thief can very quickly go back to mid (and heal back to full health due to breaking combat), in which case it becomes a temporary 5v4 against your team because you’re still at home. Or, if you expect that and immediately start moving back to mid, he can quickly circle back and finish the decap once you step off home point. Or, as a third option, if you happen to be low on cooldowns (say, you’re a fresh air ele or a mesmer who popped obsidian flesh / distortion during the fight to avoid a big burst), the thief could re-open w/ a backstab + panic strike proc and just down you.

This same dilemma really applies no matter what point you’re fighting on. If the thief “disengages” from a teamfight, he’ll just decap your home point. Obviously, a good thief is not going to sit on the sidelines camping stealth until he can hop back into the fight.

I wouldn’t exactly call the above a “loss” for the thief, even though he disengaged.

Ravenmoon.5318:

No sane thief will invest in shadow arts. For the simple reason that thieves atm are either go burst or go home. Nothing else works…i assume after the trait update thieves will go deadly arts/acrobatics/trickery and/or replacing one of those for critical strikes(for panic strike and hidden killer/executioner) and overall higher critical rate.

Shadow arts will still make no sense in conquest unless you really want to kitten off someone but you can forget about winning the game.

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

ResJudicator.7916:

To all the people who say “well if the thief disengages, then you just won the fight,” that’s oftentimes not true because of the thief’s superior mobility and ability to +1 other fights.

Let’s say the thief hops to your home point and starts to decap. You’re playing your A game, so you see the thief heading there and get to home point before he finishes decapping. You fight a bit, outplay him, and land a nasty burst. He stealths + disengages. At this point, you’re in a bind: The thief can very quickly go back to mid (and heal back to full health due to breaking combat), in which case it becomes a temporary 5v4 against your team because you’re still at home. Or, if you expect that and immediately start moving back to mid, he can quickly circle back and finish the decap once you step off home point. Or, as a third option, if you happen to be low on cooldowns (say, you’re a fresh air ele or a mesmer who popped obsidian flesh / distortion during the fight to avoid a big burst), the thief could re-open w/ a backstab + panic strike proc and just down you.

This same dilemma really applies no matter what point you’re fighting on. If the thief “disengages” from a teamfight, he’ll just decap your home point. Obviously, a good thief is not going to sit on the sidelines camping stealth until he can hop back into the fight.

I wouldn’t exactly call the above a “loss” for the thief, even though he disengaged.

Ravenmoon.5318:

No sane thief will invest in shadow arts. For the simple reason that thieves atm are either go burst or go home. Nothing else works…i assume after the trait update thieves will go deadly arts/acrobatics/trickery and/or replacing one of those for critical strikes(for panic strike and hidden killer/executioner) and overall higher critical rate.

Shadow arts will still make no sense in conquest unless you really want to kitten off someone but you can forget about winning the game.

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

There is one reason why some diehards still play the class that is mobility everything else others do better. Im suprised their still in the meta cuz i can kill every single theif i face in soloq with multiplie builds kill or stalemate its win/win to me.

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

The other way around. Executioner moved to Deadly Arts.

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Nope.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBqAPoBdg~

Thieves will now also stealth when they steal with 6/0/6/0/6 builds and take 50% less damage in stealth. Can’t wait, really.

ronpierce.2760:

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Nope.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBqAPoBdg~

Thieves will now also stealth when they steal with 6/0/6/0/6 builds and take 50% less damage in stealth. Can’t wait, really.

I don’t think the numbers will stay. Also, you should complain about what mesmers got in this case, too. Like Mental Torment is just insane at its current state. But they did say the numbers will change.

Laraley.7695:

ronpierce.2760:

Ravenmoon.5318:

ResJudicator.7916:

You’ve kinda just outed yourself as someone who doesn’t know your own class… Most of the top thieves are running DP panic strike, which is Deadly Arts + Shadow Arts + Trickery. What the new changes will let you do is max out shadow arts for free. Also, taking SA will be even less of a sacrifice once they decouple stats from traits.

What you should be saying is that no sane thief will camp stealth in a conquest game, which is accurate. But SA still offers a lot of passive survivability even if you’re not camping stealth, and it also further reduces the counterplay to stealth.

Panic strike will move down to Critical Strikes as Master trait. At least from what was shown on the 4 hour stream some weeks ago.

Nope.
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgcBqAPoBdg~

Thieves will now also stealth when they steal with 6/0/6/0/6 builds and take 50% less damage in stealth. Can’t wait, really.

I don’t think the numbers will stay. Also, you should complain about what mesmers got in this case, too. Like Mental Torment is just insane at its current state. But they did say the numbers will change.

I have, trust me, and ShoutBanners. I don’t limit my critique, as I said, I just don’t have time to go through every issue in the game every time I make a point about one thing.

Did they alter some changes after the stream. I’m pretty sure I saw panic strike on critical strikes master :O and they were talking about making it less RNG-ish

Ravenmoon.5318:

Did they alter some changes after the stream. I’m pretty sure I saw panic strike on critical strikes master :O and they were talking about making it less RNG-ish

Might be something still to come. they’ve done some heavy revisions to a lot of trait lines since before. They haven’t given too many details yet though. They said they’d have a new write up or something detailing their progress “soon”, who knows what that means though.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Did they alter some changes after the stream. I’m pretty sure I saw panic strike on critical strikes master :O and they were talking about making it less RNG-ish

Maybe you remember it wrong. They just simply moved Exe to GM in Deadly Arts. I’m not sure I understand why, though. I don’t think any thief will now go Critical Strikes.

Volrath.1473:

Ofc thieves should be punished for missing attacks!! After all, all other professions get punished with conditions for missing their skills right?!… Right?!….

/facepalm

not with conditions but every other class is punished by missing EVERY skill, meanwhile, whats the cd of weapon skills?

-warrior misses his burst? BOOM no adrenaline, means no extra regen (which is traited in shoutbow)
-necro goes lich and gets blinded? or thief goes on stealth? good you have no helpfull skills, lich has high cd or misses everything via blind, plus lich only way to defend himself is kill before die
-mesmer misses his clones? have fun waiting for more pets unless you want to use your dodges

and so on, thief has a lot of mobility with the ability to spam weapon skills, not true?
you have a signet to recover initiative, and if traited you can recover initiative on stealth, meanwhile other classes have to sit, and wait for cooldowns on their weapons,.

i agree chill needs to add some effect to weapon skills on thief, like add 1-2 initiative cost and force the thief to disengage

Someone mention a good suggestion: thief suffering random conditions while stealth and make them un-removalble until they leave stealth or until stealth elapse" “It will add more layers of counterplay to thief stealth on top of Arena net counterplay for thief stealth”

Mirrodin.8729:

Volrath.1473:

Ofc thieves should be punished for missing attacks!! After all, all other professions get punished with conditions for missing their skills right?!… Right?!….

/facepalm

not with conditions but every other class is punished by missing EVERY skill, meanwhile, whats the cd of weapon skills?

-warrior misses his burst? BOOM no adrenaline, means no extra regen (which is traited in shoutbow)
-necro goes lich and gets blinded? or thief goes on stealth? good you have no helpfull skills, lich has high cd or misses everything via blind, plus lich only way to defend himself is kill before die
-mesmer misses his clones? have fun waiting for more pets unless you want to use your dodges

and so on, thief has a lot of mobility with the ability to spam weapon skills, not true?
you have a signet to recover initiative, and if traited you can recover initiative on stealth, meanwhile other classes have to sit, and wait for cooldowns on their weapons,.

i agree chill needs to add some effect to weapon skills on thief, like add 1-2 initiative cost and force the thief to disengage

- warrior refills adrenaline super fast o.O especially with 5 second weapon swap the bars are full in no time, which, just like thief’s initiative is a unique class mechanic

- Thieves do not do damage while blinded, also when a thief misses you, you get a nice “Miss” text floating over ur char from the angle the miss was made. Same if you evade or block a stealthed attack.

- Mesmers (shatterers) get their clones back up in no time and can distort, providing invulnerability

The only problematic out of stealth attack is pistol fire. You pretty much see where bullets are coming from but you can’t target the thief until they get to hit you. Meanwhile you ate bunch of caltrops and the thief is still stealthed. Its kind of annoying
build for sure but at this point if this gets addressed the condi thief will be gone. (caltrops revealing thief and whatnot)

Every attack out of stealth attack is melee. Backstab has 1/4 second cast time so its not instant. When you get the Miss text you must turn around and drop your burst or leap away. Every profession has access to gap closers. You know its not a crime to use those to run away. You only need to win 2-3 seconds before you can see the thief again….

Or well idk, maybe I’m some kind of a masochist. I absolutely love fighting versus other thieves because the combat is so fast paced and you have to guess and predict what the other guy is doing what when from which side (you don’t want to dodge toward them) it gets the adrenaline pumping. Its also very nice when they pop SR and you AoE the kitten out of that circle and in few secs the said thief reveals as downed. Best feeling ever.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Every profession has access to gap closers. You know its not a crime to use those to run away.

Basic mentality and “logic” which people share:
- “Why do you force me to use my gap closer which is for strategic purpose to kill enemy, to actually escape right at the start? That’s not fair!”

Or something like that.

DarkSyze.8627:

Someone mention a good suggestion: thief suffering random conditions while stealth and make them un-removalble until they leave stealth or until stealth elapse" “It will add more layers of counterplay to thief stealth on top of Arena net counterplay for thief stealth”

What about SE,if I use HiS while stealthed, ally cleansing when I’m stealth O.o?? This reminds me of necro not receiving any heal while in DS. This also reminds of someone who mentioned that SA traits should be on revealed instead of in stealth, I’ll use the same words : you can receive infinite incoming damage or conditions while not in stealth you can’t balance such changes unless you believe in perfect scenarios which necro suffered from.

StickerHappy.8052:

Actually I said “sometimes we just don’t move fast enough or in the wrong direction and eat that damage” meaning that sometimes the player’s reaction time might be off, not that the toon’s speed isn’t good enough.

As for counters as a mesmer, you have the same thing as a shadow step skill to put distance between you and your opponent. You have Decoy. I’ve seen Mesmers time it well and have my backstab just nail a clone while they get the advantage of stealth.

Every class in the game as an evade. Use it. There is also something in your keybindings that you can set to turning 180 degrees with a single key press to assist in turning. Backstab from the front is only half damage and still gives 5 seconds of Revealed. Like Kaseseigi said, you don’t have to stand there and wait to be backstabbed.

There is this show I used to watch called Burn Notice and I believe in the pilot there was some guy being threatened by some organized crime people. The main character makes mention of how people think the victims are supposed to do nothing and just wait around for the attack to come instead of preparing for it. He then proceeds to set up an ambush to counter the attack. Now I’m not saying to go set up an elaborate counter ambush but I am saying that you don’t have to just stand there waiting for the thief to engage you on their terms. You can even run away from the point if you think you will lose a 1v1 vs a thief who just stealthed. No reason to be inflexible and give the other team 5 points and a capped point.

As far as people talking about resetting the fight, it’s a mirror. When the thief goes into stealth and runs away to reset the fight the fight is also reset for the non-thief allowing their CDs and chance to heal.

Dude trust me I have done all of that, I have 4k games, so please I would rather avoid the l2p argument.

The thing is, decoy and blink are on a cooldown system, just to avoid a simple BS which you could use multiple times (given you have initiative) okay I block you with sword 4, you won’t get revealed, meaning another BS can be used (you are still in stealth) so then I decoy, 40 sec cd untraited, You can stealth again right after that right? and return to point 1. I mean this is the counterplay I am looking for. Blink on the other hand, will gain me some distance yes, (But remember you are still stealthed because I blocked your attack) now add the insta daze steal to that to put pressure. Even if I manage to fight back, you can easily stealth back and reset the fight (not to mention to Ectoplasm you get)

Blinding powder is also a hard counter (ignore this, it will derail the thread)

The 180 degree statement you said, I would gladly take it BUT once someone is in stealth, you cant tell what they will do next, What If he just baited his BS and steal and and SB bursts you? (SB 2)

All of this are very easy to say on paper, but very hard to do in practice especially in higher MMR matches.

BOTTOM LINE As a shatter mesmer, assuming equally skilled mes and thief, the shatter mesmer will have to get really really lucky to land a burst that will kill the thief.

PS: Other mesmer builds like condi do fine.

Yeah, you’re playing a Shatter Mesmer, Thieves eat them alive. The only real counter a Shatter Mesmer has to a thief is to hit first and hit hard. Also sometimes as a thief stealth comes off and I get insta-gibbed by all those clones.

Every build has something that destroys it. I only very recently switched from CS to PS build and D/D Celestial Elementalists used to just flatten me in a few seconds. Like as soon as I popped up against one I was dead. Was it frustrating? Yes. Did I think that meant Elementalists needed to be nerfed? No.

What about removing the ability to stack stealth other than SR?

Whenever I fight thieves and they use BP+HS, I don’t know if they HS 1, 2, 3, or 4 times. It makes it really hard to predict and counter when they are waiting in stealth for 6+ secs. If they can’t stack it, I know for sure they have 3 secs to either run or attack and I can plan a counter accordingly.

Gabriell.4856:

What about removing the ability to stack stealth other than SR?

Whenever I fight thieves and they use BP+HS, I don’t know if they HS 1, 2, 3, or 4 times. It makes it really hard to predict and counter when they are waiting in stealth for 6+ secs. If they can’t stack it, I know for sure they have 3 secs to either run or attack and I can plan a counter accordingly.

And blasting smoke fields from PvP and PvE point of view O.o? Not being the “nah” guy just making sure nothing is left out when some of those suggestions are made.

Sagat.3285:

Gabriell.4856:

What about removing the ability to stack stealth other than SR?

Whenever I fight thieves and they use BP+HS, I don’t know if they HS 1, 2, 3, or 4 times. It makes it really hard to predict and counter when they are waiting in stealth for 6+ secs. If they can’t stack it, I know for sure they have 3 secs to either run or attack and I can plan a counter accordingly.

And blasting smoke fields from PvP and PvE point of view O.o? Not being the “nah” guy just making sure nothing is left out when some of those suggestions are made.

I mean smoke combo in general like you menationed, BP + CB. If PvE players want to bypass mobs, they can still use SR or Engi ES.

You can always tell someone who doesn’t play a thief often because they don’t understand how stealth can be countered. Those of us do know because we get countered on it.

Here is the problem with people asking for it to be nerfed or removed. Thieves have nothing else for defense. Fine nerf it but give me a better HP pool and more armor because with my 2k armor and 14k HP means I’m pretty much paper. Oh and don’t reduce my spike damage either.

And if people aren’t complaining about thief stealth they are complaining about the amount of evades.