Guild Wars 2

DarkSyze.8627:

Do you know: each time when players try to put the effort into bothered to learn and putting the effort into learning how to fight the profession: 3 things happen?

1. They are instant kill by thief
2. Thief hide always in stealth
3. Thief reset fights

1. If that could actually happen, they learn that their build is too squishy. This would most likely happen if they were playing as a thief.

2. They learn that a hiding thief is absolutely no threat whatsoever.

3. They learn that what they did was working enough to force a reset.

In essence, they learn how thieves operate. Sounds like a pretty good learning experience to me. The better way to learn, however, is to actually play as a thief.

DarkSyze.8627:

Example: – teacher: classroom
————————————————————-
How would you feel if you were the student?

There are two possibilities, and both are accurate depending on the student.

A. You learn that the teacher was absolutely terrible at what he does. It’s best to ignore him entirely.

B. You have an “aha” Mr. Miyagi moment, in which you learn that he was teaching you the most important lessons you can possibly learn, though you had absolutely no idea you were being taught anything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-qesAt92Jw

Luthic.7290:

Theif Shouldnt just be revealed for failing an attack. Any action should really cancel thier stealth.

And end the epic duels between invisible thief and invisible thief when they both cast Shadow Refuge? That would be a sad day indeed! :’-(

Thieves definitely need nerfs like this. Right now my ranger is the only class i have that can compete against a good thief and that in of itself is sad considering how many people complain about how rangers are overpowered. Good thieves just can’t be beaten with their stuns, conditions, stealth’s and super heals.

StickerHappy.8052:

Luthic.7290:

Theif Shouldnt just be revealed for failing an attack. Any action should really cancel thier stealth. So getting blocked or “miss” from blind or any aoe attack should all break thier stealth instead of just giving them the option to try again.

It is admitbaly infurating when the best option to counter play is to randomly swing at the air.

Also, a “fight reset” cannot possibly be part of intended design. If you run from a fight you should be giving up something such as a node or something. But having a fight that is enterly dictated by the thief is unfun. I am not agaisnt stealth, But I do think that the immense acces to it allows theifs to chose the pace of a fight. Even if they should lose a fight.. they can easily run away and heal up. So defeating a theif is not killing them.. Its either they give up and leave u alone to go somewhere else. or you get annoyed at not being able to secure the kill that you leave… and they follow you with ease.

That is why the meta is driven by builds that beat theifs to deal with this.

(this is not ment to be just an anti theif forum, mesmers also have thier issues with stealth) but the real issue is more stealth and its mechancis then theifs.

This is actually a good idea. Nevermind revealed. Just break stealth. Fair enough?

Let’s say that this was implemented. How (if you were a thief) would you go about ever landing a backstab?

Criteria for landing backstab would go from:
1. Must be in stealth
2. Must be behind target
3. Must be within 130 range

Into:
1. Must be in stealth
2. Must be behind target
3. Must be within 130 range
4. Must not be hit by any damage <- reallllyyyyyy? how exactly do you propose to achieve this miracle?
5. Must not be blind
6. Target must not be blocking
7. Target must not have aegis
8. Target must not be invulnerable
9. Target must not be dodging
10. Can only try once

Honestly speaking, my own successful backstab rate would go from 40%~50% to something closer to 5% (and only if i combo backstab → traited steal)

With such an unreliable burst, DP would be gone from the meta. There would be no question of that. All you would have left is SD/SB (which people want to nerf as well). Oh well, maybe SB/SB will become popular again?

It’s kinda funny how this multiple build(s) ending nerf is the most “reasonable” one i can find in this post… If you believe half the things said in this tread then ‘thieves have defined all metas since day 1’, is ‘completely OP’, can ‘spam skills non-stop’, and can ‘spam all they want and disengage at will’.

I think the truth is closer to:
meta thieves are average at 1 v 1, near the bottom in teamfights, and are truly only still in the meta because of their mobility. If another class could move as well as thieves (whether by nerfing thief moblity or buffing mobility for another class), thieves would be out of the meta instantly. Burst is decent, DPS over time is underwhelming, on point survivability is non-existent. Can not fight outnumbered and should not fight even numbers.

Emi.4152:

I think the truth is closer to:
meta thieves are average at 1 v 1, near the bottom in teamfights, and are truly only still in the meta because of their mobility. If another class could move as well as thieves (whether by nerfing thief moblity or buffing mobility for another class), thieves would be out of the meta instantly. Burst is decent, DPS over time is underwhelming, on point survivability is non-existent. Can not fight outnumbered and should not fight even numbers.

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

Emi.4152:

Criteria for landing backstab would go from:
1. Must be in stealth
2. Must be behind target
3. Must be within 130 range

Into:
1. Must be in stealth
2. Must be behind target
3. Must be within 130 range
4. Must not be hit by any damage <- reallllyyyyyy? how exactly do you propose to achieve this miracle?
5. Must not be blind
6. Target must not be blocking
7. Target must not have aegis
8. Target must not be invulnerable
9. Target must not be dodging
10. Can only try once

Honestly speaking, my own successful backstab rate would go from 40%~50% to something closer to 5% (and only if i combo backstab -> traited steal)

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

you should not get a second chance at backstab if you screw it up. no other class gets that with burst skills. should I another earthshaker if my first one gets blinded?- oh wait we used to but it got nerfed.

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

Yami Kishi.7361:

Thieves definitely need nerfs like this. Right now my ranger is the only class i have that can compete against a good thief and that in of itself is sad considering how many people complain about how rangers are overpowered. Good thieves just can’t be beaten with their stuns, conditions, stealth’s and super heals.

I said this in another thread like this one and I’ll say it again: Why should a good player be punished for being good? The thief beat you because they were good. This goes for any other class as well. You’re basically asking for easy wins (against a thief specifically), what’s the fun in that anyway?

Think about it. If Anet did do as suggested on this thread, any average and below average skill thief would become useless and the learning curve would rise too high for them to want to play the class. And the good thieves would have a really hard time trying to win. If they nerfed stealth/mobility on thief, they would have to buff them otherwise just for them to stay viable, and thus thief would become similar to every other class. Fun? Hardly.

There is already counterplay to thief, plenty of it (meditation guard says hi). Any condi build against a thief works wonders since thief has poor condi removal (I have literally died from burn alone).

High dps? Hardly as high as a lich form necro. Dazes? I do believe warrior has a lot more access to these. Just grab one stun breaker and you’ll be fine against a thief.

Counter to mobility is very simple: chill, immobilize, cripple, any cc you can think of. Every class has one of these available. The thief becomes helpless very quick.

For stealth, use your AoE/melee weapon to spam on the point you last saw the thief on or around you if you think they’re going in for a backstab (by the time you’re done they’re usually downed). Shadow refuge even shows you where the thief is hiding, and you can knock them out of it. A thief in stealth is a thief who is doing nothing.

Please.

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

You’re wrong here. Cele Engi, Cele Ele, Cele Shoutbow & Medi Guards have a serious advantage vs you in head-on 1v1 (not in match). Thief is good to take them down when outnumbering, same as Mesmer.(in a match). If Thief was really best 1v1, then it wouldve been used more to actively decap vs an enemy, like prev meta the AxeBow Cele Warrior or P/S Rabid Engi.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

• Head on 1v1: I doubt that
• Outnumbering in a match: I would say shoutbow is easiest target due lack of Stability.

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

I’m actually questoning the low level tier you’re facing if you say you can handle cele engis and eles on thief 1v1. Don’t base your knowledge on beginners/casuals and/or what you heard.

Back in the day, i used to traveled around tyria mostly atmospherically places seek some wisdom and learn about them and then i came across this memento, saw an old damage writing contain snippets, found a comical image of a fox crashing into a sleeping bear while an owl flies overhead.

The caption reads “Those who charge blindly forward are likely to be surprised.” pretty much thief if you asked me.

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

choovanski.5462:

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

Umm, no. This whole thread is opinion-based. These “suggestions” are opinion-based.

You cannot accurately compare the Thief profession to any other. It is unique to itself. It uses different mechanics. It was designed that way from the beginning.

You are more than welcome to L2P why a the above suggestions are bad for a thief for yourself.

When another profession runs 10k base health with no blocks or invulnerabilites AND must be in a specific “form” to actually deal the damage it needs to in order to be effective, THEN its players will have credibility to talk.

What do people want? Thief players to be supermen? The only way to actually kill someone is to be 100% perfect? If so… if we only have ONE attempt to backstab, then you’d better double or even triple our stealth duration so we actually have a chance to get those opportunities. Or give us backstab potential while unstealthed. That would make it better, right?

What do you want a thief to do when someone goes invulnerable? A song and dance number? If a thief is already in stealth, he’s up a creek without a paddle. There IS no opportunity to backstab. A x/d thief can’t re-stealth off of the target. A d/p thief has already blown his initiative, so re-stealthing is a no go. He can risk Shadow Refuge, but he’ll get cleaved/AoE’d by the invulnerable baddie. He can TRY to run away with shortbow IF he has enough initiative left.

What is the bottom line? A thief dies in a few hits… from anyone. PERIOD. Stealth or no stealth.

COVER vs. CONCEALMENT

Thieves use concealment in order to survive. They have no cover. Don’t try to take away a thief’s defenses when he can’t even begin to get through yours.

People act as though stealth is some magical thing that makes the thief overpowered. Really? I’m running a power build. The only times I stealth is when I’m almost dead, and when I’m going for a backstab/stomp. I don’t sit there in stealth. I’d prefer to Cloak and Dagger/Backstab as quickly as possible. What’s my point? I’m TRYING to kill using my power, not stealth. What happens? I start seeing 0’s popup on my screen every time I swing. I’m in stealth literally for less than half a second during the initial contact. Now, I’m punished because of my profession’s inherent weaknesses.

Maybe I should stop being so aggressive. Maybe I should start to sit in stealth more. Maybe that’s way Anet is actually making it more survivable to stay in stealth.

The Thief is what the Thief is. No more, no less. It is unique. It has strengths, it has weaknesses. Advantages and disadvantages. Risks and rewards. If you cannot understand how they work or how to counter them, I would suggest you L2P yourself.

choovanski.5462:

the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

Yeah, so if a thief runs around in stealth so you can’t hurt him, then I guess he’s playing well also? That’s the argument you’re making. But I only hear crying when that happens.

If it is true that a thief is actually supposed to use stealth to avoid damage, then why are so many people calling for nerfs?

What about this idea? When a player is invulnerable, the first attack they make removes their invulnerability? Makes sense, does it not?

Kageseigi.2150:

choovanski.5462:

the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

Yeah, so if a thief runs around in stealth so you can’t hurt him, then I guess he’s playing well also? That’s the argument you’re making. But I only hear crying when that happens.

If it is true that a thief is actually supposed to use stealth to avoid damage, then why are so many people calling for nerfs?

What about this idea? When a player is invulnerable, the first attack they make removes their invulnerability? Makes sense, does it not?

i just think a thief should be revealed when they attack you regardless of if the attack does damage or not. currently thief can spam and ignore blinds & aegis, and i just don’t think that’s fair or that it promotes skilled play.

your argument and analogy are confused and don’t seem to relate to my point. so, i’m not going to bother with them.

Stealth ends when blocked or blinded should be a thing. Aegis then becomes a good counterplay to stealth. Remember this affects mes and ranger too.

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

you should not get a second chance at backstab if you screw it up. no other class gets that with burst skills. should I another earthshaker if my first one gets blinded?- oh wait we used to but it got nerfed.

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

and also… you’re forgetting something. You can actually get rid of blind/aegis before you attempt to earthshaker. A thief in stealth cannot. There’s a difference between smart counterplay and complete shutdown isn’t there? Also… comparing bs to a AOE stun… from a set with 2 other AOE stuns… using a completely different profession mechanic…. okay….

Emi.4152:

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

you should not get a second chance at backstab if you screw it up. no other class gets that with burst skills. should I another earthshaker if my first one gets blinded?- oh wait we used to but it got nerfed.

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

and also… you’re forgetting something. You can actually get rid of blind/aegis before you attempt to earthshaker. A thief in stealth cannot. There’s a difference between smart counterplay and complete shutdown isn’t there? Also… comparing bs to a AOE stun… from a set with 2 other AOE stuns… using a completely different profession mechanic…. okay….

thief can remove blind in stealth with shadows embrace. aegis is a problem sure, but shouldnt it be? currently the only thing you can do counter backstab is random dodge- and that’s a gamble. warriors earthshaker has many counters, not just blind and aegis- and it’s easy to dodge too (plus you can interrupt mid leap gosh).

i used earthshaker as it’s a skill that is integral to my play (and that of any hammer warrior), just as backstab is to the thief. considering how strong and essential these skills are to killing on these professions there needs to be a degree of counterplay opponents can employ. ‘dodge and pray’ is really not enough.

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

you should not get a second chance at backstab if you screw it up. no other class gets that with burst skills. should I another earthshaker if my first one gets blinded?- oh wait we used to but it got nerfed.

it’s time to L2P and learn to connect hits the first time, not the third.

and also… you’re forgetting something. You can actually get rid of blind/aegis before you attempt to earthshaker. A thief in stealth cannot. There’s a difference between smart counterplay and complete shutdown isn’t there? Also… comparing bs to a AOE stun… from a set with 2 other AOE stuns… using a completely different profession mechanic…. okay….

thief can remove blind in stealth with shadows embrace. aegis is a problem sure, but shouldnt it be? currently the only thing you can do counter backstab is random dodge- and that’s a gamble. warriors earthshaker has many counters, not just blind and aegis- and it’s easy to dodge too (plus you can interrupt mid leap gosh).

i used earthshaker as it’s a skill that is integral to my play (and that of any hammer warrior), just as backstab is to the thief. considering how strong and essential these skills are to killing on these professions there needs to be a degree of counterplay opponents can employ. ‘dodge and pray’ is really not enough.

I don’t think medguards need more counterplay against a thief. Aegis on mesmer is just RNG and it’s not like you cannot interrupt BP + HS.

choovanski.5462:

thief can remove blind in stealth with shadows embrace. aegis is a problem sure, but shouldnt it be? currently the only thing you can do counter backstab is random dodge- and that’s a gamble. warriors earthshaker has many counters, not just blind and aegis- and it’s easy to dodge too (plus you can interrupt mid leap gosh).

i used earthshaker as it’s a skill that is integral to my play (and that of any hammer warrior), just as backstab is to the thief. considering how strong and essential these skills are to killing on these professions there needs to be a degree of counterplay opponents can employ. ‘dodge and pray’ is really not enough.

1. Sure shadow’s embrace can get rid of blind… only if thats the only condition on the thief. How likely is that in pvp btw?

2. Aegis would not be counterplay. It would be a complete shut down no? Personally i do not think being counterplayed by an afk guardian is… a good thing…

3. Most block skills last longer than stealth no…?

4. dodge and pray has never been ‘counterplay’ to stealth.

5. interrupting the thief from entering stealth when they BP → HS… thats counterplay… dodging cnd is counterplay… failing to interrupt BP → HS, opening up range while they’re leaping then moving in a way to make them front stab is counterplay… applying melee or AOE damage while you move in an intelligent manner punishing them for getting close is counterplay… listening for the number of times a thief leaps through BP then knowing when you have to counter by movement and AOE and when the last second of stealth will be so you can dodge is counterplay… stunning / bursting the thief when they reveal themselves is counterplay…

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

Hy good morning.

im chakal arabe and i play w thief… im see burst on critical hit and i dont undestanding …
when i fighting w warrior and guardian i note extremely power of heavy classes… im using 0/6/6/2/0 on pvp and wvw.
I feel a little unbalanced… and i like very much play with critial hits… dont think change, but i feel most dificult has play thief on this build.
thanks for attention.

Can we take away Warriors Berserker/Ignore pain then?

What about Rangers pets? I dont like them, can we nerf them?

How about Clones, its to hard ot find the real mesmer, lets remove clones.

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

i think we are talking about different mechanics, as wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you. currently backstab ignores aegis and blind for all intensive purposes.

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you.

i think we are talking about different things.

On the other hand…if you’re using your block when thief is in stealth, you’re not playing correctly either. You know that it won’t change anything and you’re wasting your cd.

Laraley.7695:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you.

i think we are talking about different things.

On the other hand…if you’re using your block when thief is in stealth, you’re not playing correctly either. You know that it won’t change anything and you’re wasting your cd.

yeah of course. blocking a 5k+ backstab is pretty dumb

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you.

i think we are talking about different things.

On the other hand…if you’re using your block when thief is in stealth, you’re not playing correctly either. You know that it won’t change anything and you’re wasting your cd.

yeah of course. blocking a 5k+ backstab is pretty dumb

The whole threads cries about not being able to block when thief is in stealth because he doesn’t get revealed. In that case blocking backstab is dumb, since as many said thief can just keep stealth up and backstab you later.

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

1 more thing, there are MUCH more hard counters to thieves than many other classes have against them.

Thieves dont have unblockable attacks Nor do they have Blocks at all.
They dont have any Invul skills or Skills to stop Condi/damage other than Blind
No high passive heal (running away while being healed)

Thieves make up for this by having Stealth, Blind and teleports

Laraley.7695:

choovanski.5462:

Laraley.7695:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Ravenmoon.5318:

choovanski.5462:

Emi.4152:

Mrbig.8019:

Panic strike thief is like the strongest 1vs1 build in this meta.

If u give a thief enough time it will even kill almost all cele builds aside shoutbow ( debatable).

I’m seriously questioning the skill level of the average poster in these forums, altough it’s not really that much about playing the game but mostly about knowing it.

Stop

I’m not sure I agree with you. I feel that cele ele and especially cele engineer have the upper hand in a 1 v 1 situation, shoutbow… true, debatable, med guards… x.x

jumping on them after they’ve been fighting for a while… that’s another story no?

add passive aggressive comment here

choovanski.5462:

I don’t agree with condition 4, but 6-10 need to happen. you are bad at the game if you using your burst skill when you are under those conditions and you deserve to fail. aegis, blind, block, evade- those are all ways someone can out play you.

I do actually agree with you. If they made it so if you missed a backstab, the 1 key would just turn back into a normal auto attack, that would make a lot of sense to me. To lose stealth or even gaining revealed in that situation seems too much though.

the thief should be absolutely revealed from stealth. they landed an attack on the enemy, an act that under normal circumstances would remove stealth. however since their foe managed to mitigate the damage though a blind/block etc the thief is allowed to stay stealthed. the thief is being rewarded because they are playing badly and their foe is playing well, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

it’s blatantly unfair mechanic where a bad player is not punished when they make a mistake.

This change is totally kittened. Skilled thieves currently wait out your blocks because if you were skilled yourself you’d know that blocking lets you know the thief’s position. Change that and yeah you’ll kill scrub thieves i guess. Though you should be able to takeout scrub thieves even now because they don’t think much.

The following week the good thieves will stab you brutally again and because you don’t know how to protect yourself properly you’ll come to the forums again begging for backstab nerf.

Maybe create a thief and see how “ridiculously OP” it is before judging?

i’m posting because i disagree with the mechanic, not because i have trouble fighting the class. i don’t.

Well I love the Mechanic, the reason w hy I played Rogue in wow and why I main thief in gw2.

wow doesn’t have blind or aegis. i don’t have an issue with stealth, i have an issue with the fact that block, blind etc stop the thief from being revealed when they attack you.

i think we are talking about different things.

On the other hand…if you’re using your block when thief is in stealth, you’re not playing correctly either. You know that it won’t change anything and you’re wasting your cd.

yeah of course. blocking a 5k+ backstab is pretty dumb

The whole threads cries about not being able to block when thief is in stealth because he doesn’t get revealed. In that case blocking backstab is dumb, since as many said thief can just keep stealth up and backstab you later.

my opinion is similar, but i think the fact that the thief doesn’t get revealed is dumb as opposed to wanting to block the backstab. backstab is big damage skill with no tell, just the sort of thing you’d want to block. if block/blind revealed the thief you could count the stealth then time your skill use to mitigate damage while revealing the thief allowing you to counter pressure.

the issue is much more pronounced with block and aegis. sure meditation guardian has a good time vs thieves, but not all guardians are medi and neither is everyone with aegis.

currently thief is revealed when they attack you, unless you mitigate the damage… if you do that the thief gets to attack until the damage is landed while staying in stealth. it removes a huge amount of potential counterplay to backstab.

Faux.1937:

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

neither your nor your allies can target them

@Faux: no passive heal? you ever heard of shadow arts? you seen what that thing is becoming with the changes… ohhhh boyyyyy

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

neither your nor your allies can target them

@Faux: no passive heal? you ever heard of shadow arts? you seen what that thing is becoming with the changes… ohhhh boyyyyy

I said good…. having little and ALOT are 2 different things.

Look at Ele, Engi, War and Ranger at least to see what I mean.

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

neither your nor your allies can target them

@Faux: no passive heal? you ever heard of shadow arts? you seen what that thing is becoming with the changes… ohhhh boyyyyy

I said good…. having little and ALOT are 2 different things.

Look at Ele, Engi, War and Ranger at least to see what I mean.

you can grab both shadow protector and shadow’s rejuvenation. on it’s own SR is 293 base, which is solid compared to 362 from the hated healing signet, and better than backpack rgns 117. both of the traits combined with the now free resilience of shadows is a huge survivability boost.

Oh yea also, you can just oneshot thief while he is in a stealth. Need more counterplays br0?

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

neither your nor your allies can target them

@Faux: no passive heal? you ever heard of shadow arts? you seen what that thing is becoming with the changes… ohhhh boyyyyy

I said good…. having little and ALOT are 2 different things.

Look at Ele, Engi, War and Ranger at least to see what I mean.

you can grab both shadow protector and shadow’s rejuvenation. on it’s own is 293 base, which is solid compared to 362 from the hated healing signet. both of the traits combined with the now free resilience of shadows is a huge survivability boost.

Which is funny when thieves try to relate SR to Healing Signet and say it’s somehow not as bad. Note: Thief still has a heal (And instant cast for that matter, for whatever reason) and… How do I put this… Basically any amount of healing on a thief is more impactful as it equates to a higher amount of effective HP because of their design based around not getting hit as often. SR is way more potent than I feel Thieves will give credit to. Especially when the new traits hit.

ronpierce.2760:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

choovanski.5462:

Faux.1937:

I see, But if you get the (block) you KNOW RIGHT WHERE THE THIEF IS.

So what am I missing?

neither your nor your allies can target them

@Faux: no passive heal? you ever heard of shadow arts? you seen what that thing is becoming with the changes… ohhhh boyyyyy

I said good…. having little and ALOT are 2 different things.

Look at Ele, Engi, War and Ranger at least to see what I mean.

you can grab both shadow protector and shadow’s rejuvenation. on it’s own is 293 base, which is solid compared to 362 from the hated healing signet. both of the traits combined with the now free resilience of shadows is a huge survivability boost.

Which is funny when thieves try to relate SR to Healing Signet and say it’s somehow not as bad. Note: Thief still has a heal (And instant cast for that matter, for whatever reason) and… How do I put this… Basically any amount of healing on a thief is more impactful as it equates to a higher amount of effective HP because of their design based around not getting hit as often. SR is way more potent than I feel Thieves will give credit to. Especially when the new traits hit.

But its not passive, and a thief has to give up alot for that healing, what the thief gives up vs the healing is questionable, compare to other classes that just gets it and other things that they want.

Also those other classes like Warrior, engi and ele have sometype of Immune skills.

Thief healing skills is amazing I will give you take. But saying the Passive traits are good I wont.

Thief is a more balanced class IMO.

The ONLY thing that id worth talking is the Whole Block vs Revealed.

But IMO I rather it be a soft counter and BS has a 3sec CD with it is blocked.

You guys talk as if only the thief is getting a 3rd full trait line <o>

Emi.4152:

1. Sure shadow’s embrace can get rid of blind… only if thats the only condition on the thief. How likely is that in pvp btw?

2. Aegis would not be counterplay. It would be a complete shut down no? Personally i do not think being counterplayed by an afk guardian is… a good thing…

3. Most block skills last longer than stealth no…?

There are some l2p issues here. First off, blinding the thief, or using aegis or other skills to block a backstab are counterplay. These skills “counter” most other attacks in the game. Second, there is a lot of room for thief to counter this counterplay. For example, you can still backstab an aegis’d guardian by comboing it with steal. Steal is on a lower cooldown than aegis, so if the guardian waits until your steal is down to try and aegis-block a backstab, then he outplayed you. Not sure why you feel like you’d deserve to land a backstab there.

If you’re doing a stealth opener, you can even start in SB and use a long-range cluster then shadowshot-backstab right before the cluster lands, so that the cluster gets rid of aegis and the backstab animation completes.

For blocks and blinds, you have a lot of options besides giving up. If they activate a block skill, switch to shortbow w/ basi venom and stun them out of it with choking gas. Then clusterbomb spam ftw.

If it’s a blind skill and you’ve also eaten a ton of other condis, then you can just disengage while in stealth to clear all the other condis, do a soft-reset, then resume the fight on favorable terms. Otherwise, let shadow’s embrace clear the blind. If they’re super low and you need to finish them quickly, you can just HS rather than backstab and use stealth to escape or secure stomp.

Having the thief pop out of stealth (with no revealed debuff) on a blocked/blinded/dodged attack really isn’t as kittenome of the posters here are making it out to be.

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

Your logic never fails to amaze me.

Jesus Christ this thread devolved fast.

Any Engi’s struggling with stealthy thieves, try bomb kit. The pulsing blind and indiscriminate nature of the blast and condis works a treat.

Peutrifectus.4830:

Any Engi’s struggling with stealthy thieves, try bomb kit. The pulsing blind and indiscriminate nature of the blast and condis works a treat.

the bombs throw mine combo is gorgeous. trust me, thieves have no idea what hit cc’d them and they never dodge it.

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

agree 100%, my main is a Mesmer, and I dont care if they remove stealth. Initiative system + stealth is not balanced at all.

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

" The wave of the future is coming and there is no fighting it "
Anne Morrow Lindbergh

" If you don’t stand for something you will fall for anything "
Peter Marshall

Good Job! Well done to all as well

Suggestion: Arena net to re-design/re-create thief profession because nerfing them will not be enough.

" The power for creating a better future is contained in the present moment: You create a good future by creating a good present "
Eckhart Tolle

Yeah, lets make a skill that half-cripples a class with an abysmally low health pool completely cripple it instead.

pass.

Lordrosicky.5813:

420 posts and counting. That is all the evidence you need that OP was right and that stealth needs more counter play to it. If it wasn’t an issue thieves wouldn’t care if it got nerfed and other classes wouldn’t care. The fact this thread has so much interest is conclusive proof that nerfs are needed.

Job done, well done all.

“People are mad at OP for spouting nonsense and not just blindly accepting it. Jeepers, he must be right!!”

>Instead of actually reading the posts

Lmfao do you even logic
Just straight HAMMERING the bait button rofl

Thief, Chilled? it’s k 222222222222222222222

(Chill no longer affect movement skills)

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Yeah, lets make a skill that half-cripples a class with an abysmally low health pool completely cripple it instead.

pass.

We’re talking about eles now?

• Thieves HS not affected by Chill next patch (Distance)
• Thieves Initiative not affected by Chill
• Thieves Weapon Skills not affected by Chill

And you guys still be flopping?

#whatajoke