Guild Wars 2

Evaded, evaded, evaded, evaded, missed, stealth, interrupted, evaded, interrupted, target too far away, target too far away, evaded, stealth, interrupted, interrupted, evaded, evaded, evaded, target too far away, missed, evaded, target too far away, interrupted, evaded, missed, evaded, evaded, evaded, evaded, evaded.

What class do U play?

Once he was First rank 80 and best engineer universe
Seems he didnt reach this lvl with scrapper

dominik.9721:

Once he was First rank 80 and best engineer universe
Seems he didnt reach this lvl with scrapper

Well, they are still running grenade kit…

When fighting a scrapper:

protection, protection, immune, immune, immune, invulnerable, invulnerable, immune, 5k damage while blocking, protection, interrupted, immune, cc, cc, cc, protection, immune, evade, evade, cc, immune, protection, interrupted, immune, immune.

Oh, and stealth, stealth, stealth, lightning field, reveal, reflect, reflect.

It is nonsense but beatable. The fact that you can just spam evades and kill someone even if its partially because the other person is bad is still bad game play. I mean just because you see so many baddie thieves trying to mimic this style of play tells you something is off with it. Classes need to be fixed so gimmicky bs isn’t needed to make them semi viable. A-net really fails in this department.

Yeah unfortunately that’s what the thief class is now. Anet decided not to give them any sort of access to aegis/protection/blocks (apart from 2 second bandit’s defense), and just gave them another endurance bar and abilities to increase endurance. So thief playstyle does seem really spammy with dodges, but it’s our only defense. Otherwise, we get downed 100-0 almost immediately.

and then you have the d/d condi thief, which is literally just dodge, #3, dodge, #3, dodge #3. Not even remotely fun to play or play against.

alchemyst.2165:

When fighting a scrapper:

protection, protection, immune, immune, immune, 5k random aoe, passive, invulnerable, invulnerable, immune, 5k damage while blocking, protection, interrupted, immune, cc, cc, cc, protection, immune, evade while doing 5k dmg, evade while doing 5k dmg, cc, immune, protection, interrupted, immune, immune.

Oh, and stealth, stealth, stealth, lightning field, reveal, reflect, reflect.

fix’d, but pretty much this ^^

To get a theif I use AOE. But my build is a condi build with FT and mortar. So essentially if they hop around in my wall O fire or get sprayed by my EG poison or flame thrower auto, or when I click the tool belt for FT and land a hit, or jump in my poison field, or get hit by my thunderclap… they tend to go down. The hammer whirl gets them if they’re near me (front or back) and I try to manage their position for the block. In all things I do my firearms trait and sigils land bleeds and poisions (sigil earth, and doom).

I actually don’t generally find theives problematic, but my toughness is quite high as well (rabid).

However given your history your probably a way better player and maybe theives wait out your blocks, whirl o deaths, and thunderclaps some how?

Cynz.9437:

alchemyst.2165:

When fighting a scrapper:

protection, protection, immune, immune, immune, 5k random aoe, passive, invulnerable, invulnerable, immune, 5k damage while blocking, protection, interrupted, immune, cc, cc, cc, protection, immune, evade while doing 5k dmg, evade while doing 5k dmg, cc, immune, protection, interrupted, immune, immune.

Oh, and stealth, stealth, stealth, lightning field, reveal, reflect, reflect.

fix’d, but pretty much this ^^

lol should be a boatload of reflect in there somewhere

Reh.5986:

Cynz.9437:

alchemyst.2165:

When fighting a scrapper:

protection, protection, immune, immune, immune, 5k random aoe, passive, invulnerable, invulnerable, immune, 5k damage while blocking, protection, interrupted, immune, cc, cc, cc, protection, immune, evade while doing 5k dmg, evade while doing 5k dmg, cc, immune, protection, interrupted, immune, immune.

Oh, and stealth, stealth, stealth, lightning field, reveal, reflect, reflect.

fix’d, but pretty much this ^^

lol should be a boatload of reflect in there somewhere

oh i forgot retal, A LOT OF IT

Maybe I’ve been playing wrong… what makes an engi “immune” ? The only way I can get invulnerable is that elixir S which handily disables all my condi clears and looses me point cap, and the ability to put any finishing hits on my nearly dead opponents. AKA the trait I never take ( or skill for that matter).

alchemyst.2165:

When fighting a scrapper:

protection, protection, immune, immune, immune, invulnerable, invulnerable, immune, 5k damage while blocking, protection, interrupted, immune, cc, cc, cc, protection, immune, evade, evade, cc, immune, protection, interrupted, immune, immune.

Oh, and stealth, stealth, stealth, lightning field, reveal, reflect, reflect.

You forgot all the condi cleansing too, lol.

On top of this, the engi can do this while staying in the middle of a team fight and contesting a point. Very few thief builds can really sustain themselves in any serious team fight for long and the ones that do generally don’t contribute as much to a team as the more glassy, high mobility, burst builds.

• If the thief is burst D/P, you just need to pressure a bit for them to retreat and they won’t be evading much unless they’re running away.

• If the thief is staff, just dodge/block the obvious tells and don’t try to tank through the cleave to rez someone if an ally gets downed nearby. Kite them until they burn their initiative on vaults, then pressure them to retreat.

• If the thief is condi, lol because you’re playing an engi and can just cleanse everything they dish out. Be patient and slowly whittle down their HP with fast attacks between their evades.

Engis can generally handle thieves well enough in fights (especially if they try to 1 v 1 you), even if the thief avoids a lot of damage. The biggest threat a thief has to engis is more to do with their map control and +1 burst than anything they actually do in the middle of a fight.

@ Shion: Yea, they just mean the invuln from elixir S and yes, it doesn’t prevent condi damage.

Ah they said imun and invuln so I was taking them seriously. But we’re just talking S here so… right I thought we were having a reasonable discussion.

shion.2084:

Ah they said imun and invuln so I was taking them seriously. But we’re just talking S here so… right I thought we were having a reasonable discussion.

Immune would be from the decent amount of stability not more so than from Elixir S. Which is reasonable and because you don’t use Elixir S or the auto Proc trait doesn’t mean the majority of engies don’t.

How are engis getting their stability? You’d have to run without the protection health trait or be taking elixr b which is not meta? Plus to use the hammer trait that grants it you’d have had to dodged the theif first.

I suppose you could juggernaut, but a theif would see you camping FT… and honestly who camps FT with Jug these days? Or ever…

I suppose the gyro explode trait maybe? But stability isn’t really something an engi has oodles of… we can be CC’d easily overwhelmed in group fights. Probably the number 1 way I go down is stun lock.

shion.2084:

How are engis getting their stability? You’d have to run without the protection health trait or be taking elixr b which is not meta? Plus to use the hammer trait that grants it you’d have had to dodged the theif first.

I suppose you could juggernaut, but a theif would see you camping FT… and honestly who camps FT with Jug these days? Or ever…

Perfectly Weighted and Final Salvo, of course. If the enemy team isn’t too heavy on condi classes, then you can take Elixir B as well. You still get plenty of protection from converting vuln (Transmute trait and Elixir C toss/drink if you take it) as well as from medic gyro.

It’s not really hard to dodge to get the stab, but you also can just get it from popping your medic gyro (which stuns at the same time).

…and lol @ juggernaut.

Also, you don’t really need to be invuln to conditions with elixir S, particularly since you shed conditions constantly, including from Elixir S itself gets procced. Condi ticks are only dangerous to elixir S if you get heavily bombed a second before S procs. Otherwise, you can just cleanse them all easily.

So then I realistically they aren’t getting protection at any great frequency. Ok that explains then.

shion.2084:

So then I realistically they aren’t getting protection at any great frequency. Ok that explains then.

You get it often enough, especially considering how much damage you negate with bulwark gyro.

I did run with it for a bit… however its mitigation effect is somewhat useless in group skirmish. I suppose you could use it for the final salvo effect and the reflect (but ham has a reflect).

It’s better in 1 v 1 but I find that more offense is preferable in that situation, so I take FT instead. Fire filed access, group CC knockback and blast finisher is preferable to me.

I did note that if you take purge gyro You can get protection, so maybe that’s where they were thinking you’d get it from.

One of the hardest things to do in this game is lose a 1v1 to a thief on an engi.

A serious lack of skills is required

Azukas.1426:

One of the hardest things to do in this game is lose a 1v1 to a thief on an engi.

A serious lack of skills is required

It’s actually a bit counter intuitive. For the average Thief v Engi interaction, if you try and apply hammer damage to the Thief it becomes possible to die, (however unlikely he’ll go hard on you enough) but if you just sit on a point and press 1111 in Elixir gun, and use your defensives, it’s impossible to lose.

I can totally see Engineers running Marauder amulet die to thief until they realize that being aggressive is pointless.

You think it’s frustrating in PvP?

Come to WvW!

Also all classes have these gimmicks now and it feels like the skill floor is hitting rock bottom, skill ceiling…I dunno maybe Chaith can better judge that as I’m sure I’m not near most classes max potential.

apharma.3741:

You think it’s frustrating in PvP?

Come to WvW!

Also all classes have these gimmicks now and it feels like the skill floor is hitting rock bottom, skill ceiling…I dunno maybe Chaith can better judge that as I’m sure I’m not near most classes max potential.

You’re referencing giant open field small-scale scenarios in WvW? Hugely favor certain classes defensive styles to the point of frustration I’m sure. Doesn’t mean that Thief’s defensive style should be changed, just that giant open field small-scale scenarios in WvW are crazy imbalanced

It’s not that the skill floor or ceiling have been seriously changed, what’s happened in this last year is that we’ve just gotten more of everything, so it takes longer to bait out cooldowns and combat has been slowed down quite a bit.

Chaith.8256:

It’s not that the skill floor or ceiling have been seriously changed, what’s happened in this last year is that we’ve just gotten more of everything, so it takes longer to bait out cooldowns and combat has been slowed down quite a bit.

By no means would i call this slower. As you indicated we got more from everything, that means more ‘everything’ is casted in the time period.
Having to count on more CDs is harder indeed, but is not necessarily changing the skill level to be Higher. We actually have “more everything” to a level where you can get away with multiple stupid mistakes without punisment, couse if you wasted something then you can just smash another button and it’s ‘K’, then maybe use a kite-puzle as before. Like…. ESL is full with holder-Brusier comps where engis dodgeroll mid elixir-s cast reflect when war switched to mace and all that stupid stuff w/o even thinking about the outcome. I mean… You are in one of the most successful teams ever, you should know how it the game works now.
Think about it… Other games got theyr cheezy forgiving heros/champions/builds and they are good to roll ppl with in pugs, but they see little play in pro scene couse other specs that require more skill and tactics are overperforming in in a good player’s hand. This is not the case in GW. The “ESL-meta” is to play the most forgiving cheese kitten couse that’s the most effective and has the least counterplay. And the same is carryed to the casual/pug scene aswell.
My 5 cents…

MadVisions.4529:

Chaith.8256:

It’s not that the skill floor or ceiling have been seriously changed, what’s happened in this last year is that we’ve just gotten more of everything, so it takes longer to bait out cooldowns and combat has been slowed down quite a bit.

By no means would i call this slower. As you indicated we got more from everything, that means more ‘everything’ is casted in the time period.
Having to count on more CDs is harder indeed, but is not necessarily changing the skill level to be Higher. We actually have “more everything” to a level where you can get away with multiple stupid mistakes without punisment, couse if you wasted something then you can just smash another button and it’s ‘K’, then maybe use a kite-puzle as before. Like…. ESL is full with holder-Brusier comps where engis dodgeroll mid elixir-s cast reflect when war switched to mace and all that stupid stuff w/o even thinking about the outcome. I mean… You are in one of the most successful teams ever, you should know how it the game works now.
Think about it… Other games got theyr cheezy forgiving heros/champions/builds and they are good to roll ppl with in pugs, but they see little play in pro scene couse other specs that require more skill and tactics are overperforming in in a good player’s hand. This is not the case in GW. The “ESL-meta” is to play the most forgiving cheese kitten couse that’s the most effective and has the least counterplay. And the same is carryed to the casual/pug scene aswell.
My 5 cents…

You said you wouldn’t call the combat slower by any means and then rant about how everyone’s running forgiving, skill-less, unkillable, builds.

Right, then.

Edit:. I wasn’t talking about slowing APM, more like having longer, more stale fights.

Chaith.8256:

Edit:. I wasn’t talking about slowing APM, more like having longer, more stale fights.

ye sry, misunderstood you there.

Azukas.1426:

One of the hardest things to do in this game is lose a 1v1 to a thief on an engi.

A serious lack of skills is required

A theif is not designed to 1v1, and most good theives will not attempt to 1v1 you unless you’re playing a particular build that doesn’t have reliable burst or sustain options.

I disagree with you about Engy. You must not be aware of how good Scrapper is.

@OP

My favorite unranked match. Whole lot of evading and general havoc:

On my Scrapper, One thief is like fighting a fly IRL. It is hard to hit but all it does is annoy you, a well timed strike and you win flawlessly. Two thiefs on the other hand is tricky. But I wouldn’t complain about thiefs when I play Scrapper. And about Elixir B, is it not used in the pro-leagues? Anyway I use it and it is a very important skill to my marauder scrapper as it together with Bulwark gyro and trait gives me enough defence to not be needing to have toughness. It also gives me condition removals, one per skill, that’s two with toolbelt skill, also it gives me stab for a stomp and retaliation and fury when my hidden flask is on cd.

But I do not agree with either OP or Alchemyst, neither Scrapper or thief are like that. Just time your strikes against a thief and figure out their movement pattern. And as for engi, not all use elixir s trait and actually atleast in my case it kills me move than it saves me due to the ammount condition application so I never use it. With perfectly weighted you still have to successfully evade to get stab and engies can’t evade that much, there are classes with better auto proc stab. Other stab can come from elixir X but that is an elite and transforms you. And then there is final Salvo, if you have problems killing an Engie with this trait I think you have to get better. Adaptive armor is the go for a durable engi.

My opinion.

I like this thread. Let me add chronomancer! Evaded evaded evaded stealth evaded interupt invoulnerable block block evaded stealth evaded evaded… oh they killed me a while back…

When using my engi scrapper against a thief it’s more like this:

Mash a bunch of buttons – hit F to finish.

cakemonkey.6347:

When using my engi scrapper against a thief it’s more like this:

Mash a bunch of buttons – hit F to finish.

Would be with pretty much every power class. Either the thief is bad or you are lucky. As I said before, a well timed strike can down a thief in one or two hits.

cakemonkey.6347:

When using my engi scrapper against a thief it’s more like this:

Mash a bunch of buttons – hit F to finish.

When I play thief, I steer clear of scrappers unless I can +1. It’s frustrating that when you hit with pistol 4, they get protected, if they dodge they get stability, if they reflect you shoot yourself. There are no good options O_o

How do they get protected if you shoot them with a pistol?

shion.2084:

How do they get protected if you shoot them with a pistol?

A little trait called Protection Injection in the Alchemy traitline. And I meant thieves pistol #4 skill, not a general pistol shot. But it applies to all CCs such as basi venom, steal, etc…

Yannir.4132:

shion.2084:

How do they get protected if you shoot them with a pistol?

A little trait called Protection Injection in the Alchemy traitline. And I meant thieves pistol #4 skill, not a general pistol shot. But it applies to all CCs such as basi venom, steal, etc…

It also has a cooldown. Its purpose is to provide a little damage mitigation to the burst that often follows cc effects.

i remember when i played scrapper i just found dead thieves on the floor just by aoe’ing. idk.. they r way too easy. mayb u r using some weird build. i used to fight like 1v1 with ele. thief comes to 2v1. i dont even pay attention to him and focus ele. and then i just find at the end that he’s downed and left for dead. so..:/ ye.

I’m not sure most will claim they can 1 v 2 an ele and accidentally kill the +1 theif consistently without trying. Are you sure your not a theif trying to get an engi nerf?

When fighting thief with my warrior. Fire field, headbut, shield smash, pommel smash, F2,F1, stomp.

Shaogin.2679:

Yannir.4132:

shion.2084:

How do they get protected if you shoot them with a pistol?

A little trait called Protection Injection in the Alchemy traitline. And I meant thieves pistol #4 skill, not a general pistol shot. But it applies to all CCs such as basi venom, steal, etc…

It also has a cooldown. Its purpose is to provide a little damage mitigation to the burst that often follows cc effects.

A 5 sec internal cooldown, the protection lasts for 3,5 secs baseline. That’s almost permanent protection uptime. With an another source of protection IT IS permanent protection.

You can’t lose to thief with scrapper lmao, just use your hammer skill and heal and you’re fine, you’re pretty much invulnerable to headshot with the amount of reflect you got, just pressing 2(4k+) and 3+5(if he has 0 stun break) will kill him if he’s dumb anough to stay, thief shouldn’t even go against scrapper anyway. not to mention passives doing a lot of work too.

Chaith.8256:

You’re referencing giant open field small-scale scenarios in WvW? Hugely favor certain classes defensive styles to the point of frustration I’m sure. Doesn’t mean that Thief’s defensive style should be changed, just that giant open field small-scale scenarios in WvW are crazy imbalanced

Yeah but there’s nothing like a removal of capture points to really show how broken the classes and mechanics are in some areas. Stealth in particular was disproportionately effective in WvW, coupled with insane mobility. I do think that things about the thief and many other classes need changing to allow for different play styles and variety as well as to allow more role diversity.

Chaith.8256:

It’s not that the skill floor or ceiling have been seriously changed, what’s happened in this last year is that we’ve just gotten more of everything, so it takes longer to bait out cooldowns and combat has been slowed down quite a bit.

I see what you’re saying however I don’t entirely agree. Previously we had turret engies that were brain dead specs and way to effective. However now we have class match ups where if it’s in your favour (condi anything vs power rev as example) then you can pretty much mash your face across the keyboard and guarantee a win so long as you haven’t had a lobotomy. As you say, we got more of everything which means the gap between uneven match ups is much much higher.

auto attack downs the thief

Chaith.8256:

Azukas.1426:

One of the hardest things to do in this game is lose a 1v1 to a thief on an engi.

A serious lack of skills is required

It’s actually a bit counter intuitive. For the average Thief v Engi interaction, if you try and apply hammer damage to the Thief it becomes possible to die, (however unlikely he’ll go hard on you enough) but if you just sit on a point and press 1111 in Elixir gun, and use your defensives, it’s impossible to lose.

I can totally see Engineers running Marauder amulet die to thief until they realize that being aggressive is pointless.

+1

I pretty much never lose a 1v1 to a thief on engi just because I sit on the point and play very conservatively. The only time I have recently was against a d/d condi spam thief, but d/p thief just manage your defensive CDs for when they jump on point with you, apply some damage with your lightning fields and when they run off point just switch back to elixir gun pewpew. Once they disengage you’ve won because they wasted their time on a point they couldn’t get.

Chaith tells people to stop play aggressive vs scrapper and leave point to him. Great advice man.

In other thread he suggests scrapper buffs because he has SUBPAR melee pressure.

MINDBLOWN.

DenimChicken.8639:

and then you have the d/d condi thief, which is literally just dodge, #3, dodge, #3, dodge #3. Not even remotely fun to play or play against.

Death blossom condi thief makes me really sad when I play. I want it to not exist at all.

Edit:. I wasn’t talking about slowing APM, more like having longer, more stale fights.

I think slower stale fights is really bad for the game and not fun.

Cynz.9437:

Chaith tells people to stop play aggressive vs scrapper and leave point to him. Great advice man.

In other thread he suggests scrapper buffs because he has SUBPAR melee pressure.

MINDBLOWN.

You realize the statements are not logically contradictory, assuming they are actually quoted properly and not conveniently, right?

1) it is possible that the statement about sub-par melee is with regards to classes/ situations other than a 1 v 1 with a thief.

2) I believe he advocated using Egun auto which is ranged not melee when in 1 v1 with theif. Perhaps even supporting the idea of the mele pressure statement.

Shiyo.3578:

DenimChicken.8639:

and then you have the d/d condi thief, which is literally just dodge, #3, dodge, #3, dodge #3. Not even remotely fun to play or play against.

Death blossom condi thief makes me really sad when I play. I want it to not exist at all.

Edit:. I wasn’t talking about slowing APM, more like having longer, more stale fights.

I think slower stale fights is really bad for the game and not fun.

Why should Death Blossom dont exist? its the only rute thief can take if you’re not into all that stupid taxing around the map. Then the thief can accualy team fight a bit?
At least back in the day thief’s could either decap points or blow people up (Blowing people up was why thief was really fun to play). So back then 2 things you could do, know only one boring thing.