Guild Wars 2

Faux Play.6104:

Ragnarox.9601:

Hes lying he was playing duo with a thief.

Not sure if you are talking to me or kitty, but I have not played a single match as a duo this season.

That kitty. was fighting him 2,3 matches always with same thief.

I’m really curious about all the logic flying around here. What conditions exactly must a player go through to prove that you will eventually end up in the division you belong? Apparently seeing a player start in bronze and climb to legend isn’t good enough. So what would it take to show you guys that it is possible, or are you guys dead set on denying ant evidence that doesn’t support your claims?

Shaogin.2679:

I’m really curious about all the logic flying around here. What conditions exactly must a player go through to prove that you will eventually end up in the division you belong? Apparently seeing a player start in bronze and climb to legend isn’t good enough. So what would it take to show you guys that it is possible, or are you guys dead set on denying ant evidence that doesn’t support your claims?

I doubt they will listen to anything that doesn’t support their viewpoint.

Ragnarox.9601:

Faux Play.6104:

Ragnarox.9601:

Hes lying he was playing duo with a thief.

Not sure if you are talking to me or kitty, but I have not played a single match as a duo this season.

That kitty. was fighting him 2,3 matches always with same thief.

Every single match was played on stream. From bronze 600 to legend.

Feel free to back up your lie with a screenshot of me duoing with anyone.

I really dont know what people are arguing about.

If you are “stuck” in bronze and silver it means thats where your suppose to be.

Kitty kitty meow meow is a legendary player who got to legend. I dont understand what people are arguing.

This was a great experiment he did. Proves alot and people arguing the small things need to come to terms with the truth.

Anet on the other hand needs to fix leader boards, alt accounts, and rating stacking. Its easy for kitty kitty meow meow to carry in gold and plat because he is a top 25 player in the game. When alot of us are fighting for the 200-250 positions and Anet stacks 5 players of 2000-1750 ratings on one side and 5 1700 and under players on the other, there is a issue.

But no can we just end this, there is no division hell. Just Anet 1/2 patched PvP season number 5.

Your analogy with Michael Phelps will suffice. His personal MMR would necessarily have be determined by his efforts in an individual event and not in a team event, why? Simply put, his team MMR is determined by his team not him alone, and his personal contribution has the potential to help his team and that’s all it can do. His team is not guaranteed to win no matter how great he might be individually or how high his individual MMR might be (it is only the part and not the whole itself which is what you are confusing).
If his team stinks (has low MMR), no matter what his individual MMR might/would be (which could have only been determined in an individual event) it can only have a a partial bearing in a team event and that’s the nature of team sports (the larger the team the smaller the influence). If/when he loses, his MMR goes down with his team in spite of the fact that his personal MMR (current system).
Furthermore, his individual MMR will suffer (current system), not because of his individual effort, but because of his team, and that in spite of whatever his individual effort and MMR might actually be (again, individual MMR can only be truly determined in individual events and not team events because your contribution cannot be equated to the whole team itself, but is always and only a part of that team and nothing more).

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing. what do you expect when you put Michael Phelps in the pool to race against high school swimmers? wait though, Phelps went from high school to Olympic Gold competing from high school (although in reality he is an Olympic superstar), right? (the current argument) What did you expect the outcome to be? Do you genuinely think high school swimmers to even remotely compete with Phelps? if you do, then there’s nothing else to say.

Remember, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Soothsayer.9206:

Your analogy with Michael Phelps will suffice. His personal MMR would necessarily have be determined by his efforts in an individual event and not in a team event, why? Simply put, his team MMR is determined by his team not him alone, and his personal contribution has the potential to help his team and that’s all it can do. His team is not guaranteed to win no matter how great he might be individually or how high his individual MMR might be (it is only the part and not the whole itself which is what you are confusing).
If his team stinks (has low MMR), no matter what his individual MMR might/would be (which could have only been determined in an individual event) it can only have a a partial bearing in a team event and that’s the nature of team sports (the larger the team the smaller the influence). If/when he loses, his MMR goes down with his team in spite of the fact that his personal MMR (current system).
Furthermore, his individual MMR will suffer (current system), not because of his individual effort, but because of his team, and that in spite of whatever his individual effort and MMR might actually be (again, individual MMR can only be truly determined in individual events and not team events because your contribution cannot be equated to the whole team itself, but is always and only a part of that team and nothing more).

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing. what do you expect when you put Michael Phelps in the pool to race against high school swimmers? wait though, Phelps went from high school to Olympic Gold competing from high school (although in reality he is an Olympic superstar), right? (the current argument) What did you expect the outcome to be? Do you genuinely think high school swimmers to even remotely compete with Phelps? if you do, then there’s nothing else to say.

Remember, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

If you took 1000 swimmers of varying levels, and had them race 4 person relay races using this system the Olympic caliber swimmers would end up on the top and the bad swimmers would be on the bottom.

If you are rated below your skill level, you will be able to “take advantage” of people you are playing against.

Soothsayer.9206:

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing.

What is with this “He took advantage of inexperienced players” argument. From what I saw, people on the forums felt like they were trapped in a lower division than they deserve to be in and blame the system. Other players come in telling them that it is just the division they are supposed to be in and that if they were better they would move up. Then those disgruntled players were all like, “Oh yeah? Let’s see one of you pro players start off in bronze and try to climb out!”

So then nothelseth is all like, “Ok, I will!” And he streams his results and climbs all the way from bronze to legend. Now all those disgruntled players, having been the ones that issued the challenge in the first place, are all like “Wow, you’re a jerk for taking advantage of those poor noobs” and “Oh you’re just trying to feed your ego” or my favorite, “Well that doesn’t prove anything cause you’re a pro player.”

Like WTF people!? He did this project at the request of players here on the forums to show that you will eventually climb to where you belong. There have even been other players climb from bronze to gold despite not being pros. Yet you guys are refusing the evidence provided because it goes against what you believe, and you have nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to support your complaints other than personal opinions!

Am I missing something here?

Faux Play.6104:

Soothsayer.9206:

Your analogy with Michael Phelps will suffice. His personal MMR would necessarily have be determined by his efforts in an individual event and not in a team event, why? Simply put, his team MMR is determined by his team not him alone, and his personal contribution has the potential to help his team and that’s all it can do. His team is not guaranteed to win no matter how great he might be individually or how high his individual MMR might be (it is only the part and not the whole itself which is what you are confusing).
If his team stinks (has low MMR), no matter what his individual MMR might/would be (which could have only been determined in an individual event) it can only have a a partial bearing in a team event and that’s the nature of team sports (the larger the team the smaller the influence). If/when he loses, his MMR goes down with his team in spite of the fact that his personal MMR (current system).
Furthermore, his individual MMR will suffer (current system), not because of his individual effort, but because of his team, and that in spite of whatever his individual effort and MMR might actually be (again, individual MMR can only be truly determined in individual events and not team events because your contribution cannot be equated to the whole team itself, but is always and only a part of that team and nothing more).

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing. what do you expect when you put Michael Phelps in the pool to race against high school swimmers? wait though, Phelps went from high school to Olympic Gold competing from high school (although in reality he is an Olympic superstar), right? (the current argument) What did you expect the outcome to be? Do you genuinely think high school swimmers to even remotely compete with Phelps? if you do, then there’s nothing else to say.

Remember, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

If you took 1000 swimmers of varying levels, and had them race 4 person relay races using this system the Olympic caliber swimmers would end up on the top and the bad swimmers would be on the bottom.

If you are rated below your skill level, you will be able to “take advantage” of people you are playing against.

true, because if Michael Phelps showed up as John Smith (alt account) the judges (MMR system) has no way of knowing and differentiating that it’s indeed Phelps (an Olympic superstar vs. high school swimmers). They (the judges/MMR system) have no choice but to let him swim against people that have no business being in the same pool as Phelps because he is claiming to be John Smith (alt account) and, therefore, those poor souls are in for a thrashing (being “taken advantage of”). Phelps will be only living up to his potential and doing what he ought; win.
That’s why I don’t think this proves anything, because the outcome could not have been anything else given the same set of variables. Does that mean some people are not abusers or victims of the system? I do think they exist, and that means some will experience a harder time getting there than others.

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing.

What is with this “He took advantage of inexperienced players” argument. From what I saw, people on the forums felt like they were trapped in a lower division than they deserve to be in and blame the system. Other players come in telling them that it is just the division they are supposed to be in and that if they were better they would move up. Then those disgruntled players were all like, “Oh yeah? Let’s see one of you pro players start off in bronze and try to climb out!”

So then nothelseth is all like, “Ok, I will!” And he streams his results and climbs all the way from bronze to legend. Now all those disgruntled players, having been the ones that issued the challenge in the first place, are all like “Wow, you’re a jerk for taking advantage of those poor noobs” and “Oh you’re just trying to feed your ego” or my favorite, “Well that doesn’t prove anything cause you’re a pro player.”

Like WTF people!? He did this project at the request of players here on the forums to show that you will eventually climb to where you belong. There have even been other players climb from bronze to gold despite not being pros. Yet you guys are refusing the evidence provided because it goes against what you believe, and you have nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to support your complaints other than personal opinions!

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

Soothsayer.9206:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing.

What is with this “He took advantage of inexperienced players” argument. From what I saw, people on the forums felt like they were trapped in a lower division than they deserve to be in and blame the system. Other players come in telling them that it is just the division they are supposed to be in and that if they were better they would move up. Then those disgruntled players were all like, “Oh yeah? Let’s see one of you pro players start off in bronze and try to climb out!”

So then nothelseth is all like, “Ok, I will!” And he streams his results and climbs all the way from bronze to legend. Now all those disgruntled players, having been the ones that issued the challenge in the first place, are all like “Wow, you’re a jerk for taking advantage of those poor noobs” and “Oh you’re just trying to feed your ego” or my favorite, “Well that doesn’t prove anything cause you’re a pro player.”

Like WTF people!? He did this project at the request of players here on the forums to show that you will eventually climb to where you belong. There have even been other players climb from bronze to gold despite not being pros. Yet you guys are refusing the evidence provided because it goes against what you believe, and you have nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to support your complaints other than personal opinions!

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones.

Again players said that no one could climb to where they belong if they get placed lower in Bronze, then those same players changed their rhetoric to only pro players can do it, but other players have done the climb as well that aren’t pro-League level players ( I did the climb I am at best a mid to high gold player) those same players claiming no one can do the climb to get to their proper rating dismiss or don’t acknowledge those players testimonies.

So which is it? Can players that start low get placed where they are supposed to be or can’t they? There is overwhelming proof showing players can, and not so much proof stating they can’t.

People just don’t want to face the reality they aren’t as good as they thought they were because zomg “I got Legend s1-s4”.

If the system is working fine and I’m forever having 500-200 or less games then that’s it, I quit.

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Soothsayer.9206:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

The fact that the OP went from bronze to legendary is reflective of the fact that he took advantage of players that are inexperienced and not even remotely as skilled as he is. it debunks nothing.

What is with this “He took advantage of inexperienced players” argument. From what I saw, people on the forums felt like they were trapped in a lower division than they deserve to be in and blame the system. Other players come in telling them that it is just the division they are supposed to be in and that if they were better they would move up. Then those disgruntled players were all like, “Oh yeah? Let’s see one of you pro players start off in bronze and try to climb out!”

So then nothelseth is all like, “Ok, I will!” And he streams his results and climbs all the way from bronze to legend. Now all those disgruntled players, having been the ones that issued the challenge in the first place, are all like “Wow, you’re a jerk for taking advantage of those poor noobs” and “Oh you’re just trying to feed your ego” or my favorite, “Well that doesn’t prove anything cause you’re a pro player.”

Like WTF people!? He did this project at the request of players here on the forums to show that you will eventually climb to where you belong. There have even been other players climb from bronze to gold despite not being pros. Yet you guys are refusing the evidence provided because it goes against what you believe, and you have nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to support your complaints other than personal opinions!

Am I missing something here?

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones.

Again players said that no one could climb to where they belong if they get placed lower in Bronze, then those same players changed their rhetoric to only pro players can do it, but other players have done the climb as well that aren’t pro-League level players ( I did the climb I am at best a mid to high gold player) those same players claiming no one can do the climb to get to their proper rating dismiss or don’t acknowledge those players testimonies.

So which is it? Can players that start low get placed where they are supposed to be or can’t they? There is overwhelming proof showing players can, and not so much proof stating they can’t.

People just don’t want to face the reality they aren’t as good as they thought they were because zomg “I got Legend s1-s4”.

No
If you are dropped too far from your true rank you have the skills to scape, but if you fall only a few steeps your skill advantage is not so great to make the game and you have to rely on a fair mm that lets you gain a bit more of 55-60% to slow climbing.
and there how everyone i post my case:
Im a PvX player i play pvp on a regular basis 3-4 match a day on seasons a bit more but not much more, after placements i get on high gold t2(higher than i think i belong, bouncing in silver tiers)after this i get droped to bronze 2 with a constant loss streak of 30% w-70% l now i get stabilized my wind ratio in bronze / silver and today in evening i played 2 games in the firts we lost 500-300 in the second we win 500-25 and…. 6 of players repeated in the two games in firts we are one ranger one necro(that after talking about start split they go to home that i called for me and all the match do the same home,killed, home… no matter if home are ours or not) a warrior gs/shotgun (1,1,1,1,1) my guardian and another guy, in other team there was a duo, second game in my team only me and ranger of the anterior game and the other team the duo and the war and necro of last game (in this the same necro come to our close not going to take first their home that remains unclaimed and all match the same: dead, our home, dead… )
you think a mid/ low player like me or the other druid guy can carry(i dislike this word) a team with these two clueles players? the answer is not, we can only trust in fair matchmaker and slow climbing to the place

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

As someone who is not playing GW2s PvP for many reasons I am basically a spectator and lurker in all these discussions – but I can relate to other PvP/MOBA games I play, so I just want to add I think there are some things are missing in this discussion:

- Reaching the rank/division of players that are closer but not close – and how awkward it is around that point.

Here we have a Pro player with a skill of 10 (out of 10) that starts at 0.
He zips from 1 to 10. Great, no surprise.

But what if you are ranked at 3 but are 5.5.
Now that player won’t be there as easy because the environment in that 3 region is much, much harsher. A 10-player can easily compensate this because of the huge margin in actual skill, but the average Joe does not. So the amount of throws by his mates is much, much higher and of course leads to much, much more frustration over a much, much longer time. And that is not neccessarily the fault of that player.

The amount of Clown Fiestas in low rank games is of course higher and if you are not a pro, you will suffer a big amount of games that can and will lead said player to state that he does not deserve the place he is at.

- Some guys were saying, that, as soon you leave a certain “noob area”, you will climb easier. And yes, that is happening in another game. When I play as premade with a good player, you might think I make them lose, because I am the bar of lead on the team’s leg by being far worse. But guess what: The amount of Clown Fiesta games, troll games and simple idiots is much lower. Like breathing fresh air, that improves even the worse player’s skill. A team-mate that can think by themself or is doing one or two better decisions compared to a low-level team-mate can bring the difference.

I am in said game a Silver/Gold player, but can suddenly compete in Diamond much more often and better. You would expect my winrate drop to 30%, but it does not. Team mates save my life, and I save theirs simply because they have brain. As soon as I SoloQ and go back to my Silver rating, I have suicidal bobs – dragging me down.

In every game with a ranking the rock bottom area of said ranking are FAR, FAR worse than the actual skill, but MMR / Elo fails so much in these regions. Flipping coins is better than any algorhythm developed in certain areas. People say: “You are the constant variable, you will eventually win more games”, but we all know this does not have to happen. In said game, I had a premade troll for example and still lost. If such stuff happens more and more (and biased only on your side – which can happen, no matter how much lazy people will yell “probability theory” and “this will happen to the enemy too” – we all know it does not actually have to happen) you will get stuck and the MMR thinks you belong there.

- Did I read 80% winrate here? Seems like the matchmaking is handing out free wins; opposed side are heavy lose streaks. Sounds awful. Players should never get free wins nor free falls.

Excelsior.

Faux Play.6104:

Stand The Wall.6987:

skcamow.3527:

It very clearly proves that if you are skilled, you can get out of the lower tiers playing solo.

what was not proven is if you get a loss streak, and I mean a bad one, improve, and succeed leaving the tier.

This thread meets your requirement. Gold player ends up in bronze then climbs back out to gold.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Climbing-out-of-bronze/first#post6459694

interesting ill be watching this later. for the record, the requirement isn’t mine. thanks for the share.

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

But you are ignoring that nothelseth is not the only one to climb out of bronze. There have been many other AVERAGE players that have done the same thing. So what is your explanation for them?

Shaogin.2679:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

But you are ignoring that nothelseth is not the only one to climb out of bronze. There have been many other AVERAGE players that have done the same thing. So what is your explanation for them?

average players that climb out of bronze are obviously only carried by luck

pro players that climb out of bronze obviously are just taking advantage of noobs to feed their egos.

duh?

kappa

Shaogin.2679:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

But you are ignoring that nothelseth is not the only one to climb out of bronze. There have been many other AVERAGE players that have done the same thing. So what is your explanation for them?

im not ignoring it, the explanation is luck(or not have bad luck in teams) in a few key matches, now in this moments im in top bronze with a short win streak i get silver, if luck gives me better win streack i can climb out of reach of bronze players, silver is so populated to not get them in team, and suposetly not geting the same amount of clueless ones per match

megilandil.7506:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Soothsayer.9206:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Snip

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones.

Again players said that no one could climb to where they belong if they get placed lower in Bronze, then those same players changed their rhetoric to only pro players can do it, but other players have done the climb as well that aren’t pro-League level players ( I did the climb I am at best a mid to high gold player) those same players claiming no one can do the climb to get to their proper rating dismiss or don’t acknowledge those players testimonies.

So which is it? Can players that start low get placed where they are supposed to be or can’t they? There is overwhelming proof showing players can, and not so much proof stating they can’t.

People just don’t want to face the reality they aren’t as good as they thought they were because zomg “I got Legend s1-s4”.

No
If you are dropped too far from your true rank you have the skills to scape, but if you fall only a few steeps your skill advantage is not so great to make the game and you have to rely on a fair mm that lets you gain a bit more of 55-60% to slow climbing.
and there how everyone i post my case:
Im a PvX player i play pvp on a regular basis 3-4 match a day on seasons a bit more but not much more, after placements i get on high gold t2(higher than i think i belong, bouncing in silver tiers)after this i get droped to bronze 2 with a constant loss streak of 30% w-70% l now i get stabilized my wind ratio in bronze / silver and today in evening i played 2 games in the firts we lost 500-300 in the second we win 500-25 and…. 6 of players repeated in the two games in firts we are one ranger one necro(that after talking about start split they go to home that i called for me and all the match do the same home,killed, home… no matter if home are ours or not) a warrior gs/shotgun (1,1,1,1,1) my guardian and another guy, in other team there was a duo, second game in my team only me and ranger of the anterior game and the other team the duo and the war and necro of last game (in this the same necro come to our close not going to take first their home that remains unclaimed and all match the same: dead, our home, dead… )
you think a mid/ low player like me or the other druid guy can carry(i dislike this word) a team with these two clueles players? the answer is not, we can only trust in fair matchmaker and slow climbing to the place

Again I was in Bronze, I am now in mid Gold (stopped playing so ranking is decayed) I have dropped from mid Gold to High Silver multiple times and then climbed back to to mid Gold for the majority of my matches played, so you are saying I should not have been able to progress at all to get to mid Gold where I plateaued matched with similar skilled players, I am not any where near pro level players skill yet I made the climb, you say that that is impossible, since I should not have climbed through Silver or Low Gold by your own statement.

Again I am not the only person to do this, a lot others have as well. Again the statement players have made were that no one could make the climb to get to where they should be that no one can carry matches, those were Provence wrong, then those same players stated only pros could do it again they were proven wrong.

So again I ask which is it can players that are placed wrong not climb to their actual rating or can they?

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

Soothsayer.9206:

Yes, you are missing the fact that an elite player is grouped with people that don’t know they are playing against an elite player who is using an alt account (they are where they should be but he is not). absolutely he should win against them. furthermore, there is no way to simulate what others may be going through using this method – its flawed from its premise and therefore the results prove nothing more than an elite level player can beat inexperienced ones and can get back to where he belongs. is that a “great” accomplishment? not hardly. does it prove you can get from bronze to legendary (or whatever)? already knew that (we already know it can be a grind). my personal opinion is irrelevant and only seek to point out that there is really nothing significant to see here.

there is no way that this can simulate what some others are going through and if people think that this debunks the difficulties that some others might be experiencing, this project fails miserably because all we actually have is an elite level player, who pretends to be new, torching lower rank players because he is an elite level player.

what of the experiences of those new players that he went through in lower ranks? did they think this whole project was fun? didn’t they want to win and were deprived of a legitimate chance at that because they were going against someone who is vastly superior in experience, knowledge and skill? didn’t someone threaten to report him for cheating? does that sound like someone who was given the opportunity to grow and learn in among his current peer grouping? so it now becomes acceptable to trash out someone’s sPvP experience while in the guise of a player of equal skill/rank? that’s all this proves.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE PURPOSE OF THIS PROJECT THOUGH! Did it probably suck for those players he beat? Sure, but he did all of this at the request of the players here on the forums. It was never advertised as some “great accomplishment”. It to simply show that it can be done, which is in response to all the people saying it can’t be done. As for your “simulations”, other players that have legitimately been placed in bronze have also climbed out. The only way to simulate what is REALLY happening would be to show a player that belongs in bronze, playing in bronze, and staying where he belongs. But then everyone will still deny that stating that they are better than bronze players and don’t belong there, and now we have come back full circle. You say he can get out of bronze because he is better than those bronze players, but this project was in response to people claiming the exact same thing! If people are truly better than the players they are facing in bronze or whatever division, then why can they not do what nothelseth and even other lesser skilled players have done? I’ll tell you why, it’s because they actually belong in bronze, which is the whole point behind this project.

The Phelps example another time, swiming the 4×100 race, a top tier player (world champion level) give a lot of seconds of advantage to their teammates(local champion level players), a player of national champion level can do it also, but a regional champion dont give that high amount of advantage seconds and relies on their teammates to be competitives , the other team can easily eat that advantage with a few seconds for swimmer

But you are ignoring that nothelseth is not the only one to climb out of bronze. There have been many other AVERAGE players that have done the same thing. So what is your explanation for them?

im not ignoring it, the explanation is luck in a few key matches, now in this moments im in top bronze with a short win streak i get silver, if luck gives me better win streack i can climb out of reach of bronze players, silver is so populated to not get them in team, and suposetly not geting the same amount of clueless ones per match

So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?

It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.

ends justifies the means then? what if Anet applied the letter of the law here? is there any way those players could get some sort of restitution for time wasted or frustration incurred? it still cannot account for some that are truly experiencing difficulty do to assumptions MMR makes regarding “supposed” skill and therefore cannot account for legitimate discrepancies in people’s circumstances. in other words, there will be some who are illegitimately carried forward and some artificially held back, this is common knowledge.

furthermore, did the op experience recurring match manipulation as some do? did he ever get to middle tiers and consistently get teams that played so badly that they were was beyond carrying as some do? did he experience dc’ing/character respawning the way some do? until he does, then it is impossible to simulate what others are complaining about on a regular basis, and therefore makes this whole “project” suspect with respect to its alleged conclusion. so, it is therefore possible that some are not where they belong whether that is negative (lower rank than they deserve) or positive (higher rank than they deserve), I believe so and this whole endeavor fails to proves its premise.

consequently, it is being hailed as a great accomplishment, even if it’s not being explicitly stated those terms. ultimately it is: “see, I told you so! I just knew for certain it could be done and I did it; ha, ha!” we all know people can grind their way out, so that’s nothing new. in the end, I just hate discounting what others experience just because I don’t, and then finding a way to deny them that, although I cannot simulate the circumstances with any precision that are causing them the difficulty.

now if only everyone is ESL level im sure they can all do this also.

To be honest I don’t know how this Elo hell is defined, so I may argue in the wrong direction.

But I play ranked with three accounts this season. One is mid gold, going up sometimes, going down and one is stuck in bronze like forever. (one is in silver now with about 30 games, so not important) Both accounts have about the same number of games now (about 250 on the gold one with start in plat 1 and 220 on the bronze one with start in gold 3)

On the bronze account I got a terrible loss streak where I couldn’t carry any teams. Even my 1v2 and partially 1v3 made my team cap or keep a base. Meanwhile it is impossible for me to get my other account out of bronze.
I had a 6 game win streak this week, got 10-14 points for a victory, then lost two games (1 with an afk and 1 with a really terrible team) and lost 28 points. Since then I won a game, lost a game, won a game, lost a game. And mostly gain 12 points, lose 10, win 10, lose 14 and so on.
There is absolutely no way I can carry people in matches where they lose a 4v2 or go afk after they lose the first fight on mid.

I still don’t know if I am a bronze player or a gold one. The matches are always one-sided as kitten.

for info and speculation: I play both accounts in most of the seasons, both were active in season 2-5 with being in ruby or diamond – so no new account without mmr was used and I think that’s the main reason for people being stuck somewhere. If you “damaged” your mmr in season 3 or 4 in ruby hell – where you couldn’t drop a tier, you may be on the “losing” end until a hard mmr reset may take place.

There are too many unknown factors to take Helseth’s way as prove for something.
- what time of the day you play (more afk players, more stupids, smth)
- do you play EU or NA (
- stuck mmr from previous seasons as mentioned above

Soothsayer.9206:

If his team stinks (has low MMR), no matter what his individual MMR might/would be (which could have only been determined in an individual event) it can only have a a partial bearing in a team event and that’s the nature of team sports (the larger the team the smaller the influence). If/when he loses, his MMR goes down with his team in spite of the fact that his personal MMR (current system).
Furthermore, his individual MMR will suffer (current system), not because of his individual effort, but because of his team, and that in spite of whatever his individual effort and MMR might actually be (again, individual MMR can only be truly determined in individual events and not team events because your contribution cannot be equated to the whole team itself, but is always and only a part of that team and nothing more).

Sounds good,however your train of though its wrong from the start and your analogy give it very well:

First that “team” you refer will change from match to match, some times more some times less, so the constant variable its the player himself. Second theres not one or two matchs, we talk about a lot of iteractions, you arent thinking as the alghoritm works.

A lot of the MMR/Glicko/Elo its no good because its a team game defenders, forget that the MMR in the long run doesnt account only (and specially doesnt center in) if you won with that team or that couple times, you have a personal contribution, if this one its higher than the average of the other teamates, it will end in giving the team a bigger than 50% win probability.

This probability, in the long run out of several interactions and the more the system ends up stabilizating itself, will result in be the win ratio of player x in a determined MMR, however before that, the system will make him go up/down if its not likely 50%, until he will actually get to a point his personal contribution (mean not the one in a game, but the mean of personal contributions), will end up been the same of his teamates, resulting in him stabilizating there with a 50/50 win ratio (of matches played since coming to that level).

Mathematically speaking the MMR alghoritm upon iteractions of several matchs in several players, confirm your MMR because it gets enough equations to discover the true value of the variables it has (player MMR), in other words, if this was: you only can have one team or it was just a couple of matchs, it could not know where you belong, but since the variables change for match to match (equations change and they are not generally linearly dependants of the same one, or are enough that arent) it will allow the MMR to get the value of all equation variables (players MMRs), of course with asignificance level, however its small and tends to get smaller the more you nourish the system with your data (aka play).

The problem for using a more direct method come from two sides:

• Either this one or a “direct method”. (because other case you are duplicating the actual value of the difference in performance of a player comparaed to the rest).

• Second the exploitable and circunstancial nature of direct measure variables, to give examples:

Current stats:

Damage can favor aoe spamming without serius impact instead of apropiate targetting.

Deaths: If used will not favor the guy that its the enemy target (yay necros!) ending in that even if they manage to survive more they will probably have more deaths, and if they get too much on the defensive because of this, probably not enough damage or victims. however if your teamate been aimed its capable of survival much more than the one in the other team, you get a very powerfull advantage in mid fights, so this important contribution couldnt be considered and the necro will actually get penalized (in fact you cant expect a necro to have less deaths than a class that its not focus or have good disengagingcapabilities).

Defend and offense favor a lot difference classes and strategies, for instance a none dealt thief uncapper will get more offense points, even if its team was greatly capable of sealing the other team so he could do it, so they would not get offense (probs defense, but its not the same in value, neither %).

Same with victims, if your team its zerging and not defending, but get feeds in the time you try and sometime gets one cap, the great probability its that your 4 cappers with lots of victims, that lose the game will win in atack and victims.

The stats need to be capable of been used in all of the MMR strats, other case it will not work accuratly in adjusting the population MMR, that after all its necesary to get the system to its more stable point.

Etc, the best stats to count are win or lose for that and as explained as above, eventually you will get to your place.

Pd: Not my main language.

Just another thought on that. I remember a rumour that players were mixed in “winner” and “loser” teams in season 3 (or 4?) which made matches absolutely terrible and created that ruby hell.
What if this system still is in place?
Helseth would almost never end up in a “bad” team that way, because he had a 80% win ratio – only if there is no team with positive win stats and the system picks players available instead.
If the system ever worked (don’t remember if this was the case) in a way like that, there would be no way a “good player” with a new account would be stuck in bronze, because he would always get the good teams over the bad ones if enough players queue up.

edit: my bad, someone mentioned it already..

nothelseth.4621:

You doubted mew.
You said the kitty wouldnt make it.

Elo hell has been destroyed by the GOAT kittykittymeowmew,

http://imgur.com/a/Tn2OW

80% winratio from 600 rating bronze to legend, all soloque, you know…while also playing the easiest build combining both the most OP condition and moa (completely broken skill). did someone just say portals? ofcourse I double moa, but yea ELO hell sure doesn’t exist. I could totally do this on any other class

over 20 losses U_U

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

So basically if people provide proof it doesn’t matter “Elo/Mmr Hell” exists. And define “suitable skill level” would love to know what you believe suitable Skill level means!

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

So basically if people provide proof it doesn’t matter “Elo/Mmr Hell” exists. And define “suitable skill level” would love to know what you believe suitable Skill level means!

By “suitable skill level,” I mean skills appropriate to the tier in which the “elo hell” is said to exist.

In other words; It’s not noteworthy for an esl level player to rise out of bronze. They are clearly undermatched. We expect them to rise whether they get favorable matches or not.

On the other hand, a bronze level player breaking an “elo hell” barrier and passing into silver would be noteworthy. Since we would generally not expect them to be able to pass through the barrier.

The OP rose through the ranks as we would have expected. That demonstrates that the strategy of “smurfing” is viable.

It does not relate to the existance or non existance of “elo hell” because it’s not a suitable case for experiment.

Ithilwen.1529:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

So basically if people provide proof it doesn’t matter “Elo/Mmr Hell” exists. And define “suitable skill level” would love to know what you believe suitable Skill level means!

By “suitable skill level,” I mean skills appropriate to the tier in which the “elo hell” is said to exist.

In other words; It’s not noteworthy for an esl level player to rise out of bronze. They are clearly undermatched. We expect them to rise whether they get favorable matches or not.

On the other hand, a bronze level player breaking an “elo hell” barrier and passing into silver would be noteworthy. Since we would generally not expect them to be able to pass through the barrier.

The OP rose through the ranks as we would have expected. That demonstrates that the strategy of “smurfing” is viable.

It does not relate to the existance or non existance of “elo hell” because it’s not a suitable case for experiment.

But that isn’t Elo hell then that is the tier that player belongs in if they are truly a Bronze tier player so of course they would have a harder time to get out of it, the people claiming of Elo Hell are stating they deserve to be higher and are misplaced well below their level and can’t get out of Bronze.

So even in your example that isn’t the system working bad but doing its job of having the appropriate tier players placed properly and the higher they get to the next tier they will find it more difficult till they improve and then become skilled appropriately to the next tier.

So To stay on topic to the OP and the other players claiming that no matter the players skill levels if they get placed in Bronze they won’t be able to break free and make it to their proper placement. Your example is not even the same issue as what was brought up by the people complaining of the Elo Hell

shagwell.1349:

Just another thought on that. I remember a rumour that players were mixed in “winner” and “loser” teams in season 3 (or 4?) which made matches absolutely terrible and created that ruby hell.
What if this system still is in place?
Helseth would almost never end up in a “bad” team that way, because he had a 80% win ratio – only if there is no team with positive win stats and the system picks players available instead.
If the system ever worked (don’t remember if this was the case) in a way like that, there would be no way a “good player” with a new account would be stuck in bronze, because he would always get the good teams over the bad ones if enough players queue up.

edit: my bad, someone mentioned it already..

I’ll post some facts. In the first 4 seasons I got diamond once, other seasons I was ruby. I started this season in gold. I had a loss streak that put me in bronze. At the time I started tracking in bronze I had a 40% win rate over 185 games played. I was able to climb back to gold by winning 63 of 102 matches. Since reaching gold my win rate has been ~56%.

Your rating will always be a range. Some days you will play several tiers better than your rating and some days you will be several worse. If you objectivly looks at your matches, you will see you are leaving points on the table every match. I bet even Kittymeaomeao will admit that he could have squeezed a couple more points out of some of his matches if he would have made a different play. Yes you will get bad players on your team, but they are in your peer group. In order to advance, all you have to do is win more often than they do.

I posted a table of my results and screenshots below:

				Played	Won	Win %
Bronze Start   	185		74		40.0%
Reached Gold   	287		137		47.7%
Current        	        347		171		49.3%
Bronze to Gold 	102		63		61.8%
Gold to current	60		34		56.7%

@blaquefyre

Granted, the goal of the system is to place players in the range they are suited to.

My point is this:

The OP asserted that rising through the tiers on an alt disproves “elo hell.” This is not a “valid” argument ( in the logic sense of the word ) because the OP is not a suitable subject for the experiment.

It would be much more impressive if a more typical player were able to do the same.

Now that I’ve said that, I think that the current matchmaking is the least flawed of the 5 seasons. In my opinion, if class stacking were resolved the matchmaking would be in a good place (when population was high enough to support it. )

I’m not sure whether to believe “elo hell” exists or not. I do think it has existed in past seasons.

Ithilwen.1529:

@blaquefyre

….

It would be much more impressive if a more typical player were able to do the same.

….

Ironically you are ignoring the post right above yours.

Ithilwen.1529:

@blaquefyre

My point is this:

The OP asserted that rising through the tiers on an alt disproves “elo hell.” This is not a “valid” argument ( in the logic sense of the word ) because the OP is not a suitable subject for the experiment.

It would be much more impressive if a more typical player were able to do the same.

You’re wrong. Helseth is a legendary player. The system placed him where he belongs. Your typical player is not legendary, and shouldn’t be in legendary. Your typical player is in gold/silver. That’s where most people belong, and coincidentally, that’s where they are.

lets just do away with the ranking system, pit everyone against eachother with no mmr/ranking system whatsoever, and see what happens.

Stand The Wall.6987:

lets just do away with the ranking system, pit everyone against eachother with no mmr/ranking system whatsoever, and see what happens.

Soo… Unranked?..

It is good to see that carry classes can get you to your correct MMR effectively.

Now for those who play eles and engies…I wonder how well such an experiment would work. I guess the true suggestion is to get gud on warrior/thief/mesmer to truly climb (although thief suffers the problem of only needing 1 and being over-saturated in number of players).

Congrats and thanks for sharing was really fun to watch.

Ithilwen.1529:

In other words; It’s not noteworthy for an esl level player to rise out of bronze. They are clearly undermatched. We expect them to rise whether they get favorable matches or not.

A bronze level player shouldn’t break the barrier to silver. It is simple as that.

Why people keep disregarding proof players keep posting about them climbing from bronze/silver to gold and even platinum and saying Helseth is taking advantage of other players?

If you don’t belong to certain a tier, you will move up or down to the place you belong. If you can’t break from bronze, then I have bad news: You belong to bronze.

BlackBeard.2873:

Now for those who play eles and engies…I wonder how well such an experiment would work.

I’ve been playing mostly scrapper, marauder with Perfectly Weighted and Mass Momentum traits granted, only switch to another professor if my team is already stacked with them, and I had no problem to “carry” on my up.

BlackBeard.2873:

It is good to see that carry classes can get you to your correct MMR effectively.

Now for those who play eles and engies…I wonder how well such an experiment would work. I guess the true suggestion is to get gud on warrior/thief/mesmer to truly climb (although thief suffers the problem of only needing 1 and being over-saturated in number of players).

Good solo Mesmers, Thieves, and Warriors will be able to carry and climb with easier than a solo Engi or Ele. Doesn’t mean that the Engi and Ele can’t climb out…just means they likely won’t be 80% after just solo climbing.

I want to say Helseth knows this…but at the same time I do want see his opinion on it.
Helseth did prove you can climb out of low rank (not doubting that)…but he didn’t really prove its possible with all classes with similar effectiveness (solo).

If the only option is, “Well, guess you should just play to Mesmer, Thief, or Warrior…” Is that the right message you want to deliver about GW2 PvP? That every other profession is pointless really? Guess it would help balancing.

its fun watching everyone make every excuse they can to “prove” they arent as bad as they actually are.

sophiewhite.3149:

its fun watching everyone make every excuse they can to “prove” they arent as bad as they actually are.

It is more fun watching how many people in this thread are apparently school dropouts and think Helseth’s “experiment” or anything others have posted constitutes proof or disproof in any meaningful sense, or even that “ESO Hell” is worth going on about, most of the complaints I read aren’t really about that (at least not in simple black and white terms).

Shaogin.2679:

So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?

It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.

oficial is that there is no reasoning with you
i said before with the swimmers example and i repeat now:

a top tier player : world championship level swimmer, put in local championship with a team of local championship level teammates in a relay race can give them and increible amount of seconds of advantage that even if they had the bad luck of be in the worse team of competition they can win
a gold player : national level championship swimmer , gives they a good advantage and can win with low average teams
a silver player : regional level championship swimmer, gives to their team a minor advantage and they win if they are put in and average team, if not the minor advantage gets eaten by the rivals

climbing out of bronze division where the skill gap is greater than the mmr metrics shows is hardest as your true rank more aproaches to bronze that you are more dependant of not geting a bad team(luck)

that we are saying to you is that top 250, platinum, gold players can easy jump the fence of bronze, but silver ones not and the experiment of OP is irrelevant cuz they are top 10 one and probably can win with a team of home tricapers that only spawn autos in bronze and obviously a silver player can’t

zinkz.7045:

sophiewhite.3149:

its fun watching everyone make every excuse they can to “prove” they arent as bad as they actually are.

It is more fun watching how many people in this thread are apparently school dropouts and think Helseth’s “experiment” or anything others have posted constitutes proof or disproof in any meaningful sense.

It doesn’t prove anything in a scientific term but then I would question why anyone feels the need to say it isn’t scientific when based on his attitude alone he wouldn’t get passed by the ethics committee. Never mind that this is broadcast to a lot of people as it’s happening and he’s even had people in game pop onto his stream when they see him in the match to chat thus adding more and more interference from participants.

To even bring up scientific reasoning is itself grasping at straws, sure just what Helseth has done doesn’t prove anything alone but there have been posts on the forums of people climbing out of bronze to gold/platinum. Vaans and a few other higher players on the leaderboard have also done such a thing and when added together certainly casts doubt on the Elo hell claims. Claims which are backed up by even less evidence in itself only citing “I was legend in the other 4 seasons” as proof most of the time.

Also assuming people must be school dropouts to call this proof is at best presumptuous and at worst just plain ignorant. It’s akin to the teenagers on the forum or even worse the middle aged adults calling people kid to assert a sense of age dominance when really it is immature.

megilandil.7506:

Shaogin.2679:

So your explanation is that they were only able to climb from bronze to gold because of luck? You seriously believe that others can only do it because they get lucky and you and others get unlucky? You seriously believe that is a more reasonable explanation than they simply climbed to where they belong and you are stuck where you belong?

It’s official, there is no reasoning with you people. You guys have no intention whatsoever of listening to anyone, so this whole argument is pointless.

oficial is that there is no reasoning with you
i said before with the swimmers example and i repeat now:

a top tier player : world championship level swimmer, put in local championship with a team of local championship level teammates in a relay race can give them and increible amount of seconds of advantage that even if they had the bad luck of be in the worse team of competition they can win
a gold player : national level championship swimmer , gives they a good advantage and can win with low average teams
a silver player : regional level championship swimmer, gives to their team a minor advantage and they win if they are put in and average team, if not the minor advantage gets eaten by the rivals

climbing out of bronze division where the skill gap is greater than the mmr metrics shows is hardest as your true rank more aproaches to bronze that you are more dependant of not geting a bad team(luck)

that we are saying to you is that top 250, platinum, gold players can easy jump the fence of bronze, but silver ones not and the experiment of OP is irrelevant cuz they are top 10 one and probably can win with a team of home tricapers that only spawn autos in bronze and obviously a silver player can’t

The thing is this is only looking at one match or instance, if you truly give your team an advantage, even a small advantage you should be showing it over time. You should be getting g a few top stats if you are the best on the team which reduces the loss of rating on losing and increases rating gain from winning.

I have had a loss take away 15-20 rating with 3 top stats only for me to win it all back next game with again 3 top stats.

If you cannot show that you are better than the people in the game, even if it’s only by a small advantage, then you are in fact in the right division

Ithilwen.1529:

The OP’s action demonstrates that “smurfing” works.

It doesn’t logically relate to “elo hell” or related terms.

To demonstrate the non existence of “elo hell” you’d need to take a player of suitable skill level and have them break through the alleged barrier. Even then, it would be only anecdotal evidence.

On that basis, the OP is incorrect.

Wtf, i am losing faith in the forums with this thread. This is simple maths. He is proving that you wont get stuck at a rating if you are too good for that rating.

He is not proving that a gold player can get out of gold. Because they shouldnt get out of gold. That is literally the whole point.

I believe my favorite part of reading these comments are how the goalpost has shifted over and over and over.

Before s5 it was said that I’d never take the top ranks and the fact that I had the winratio I had meant nothing because rigged system or something.

Once s5 hit the only reason I had legend was because I got lucky with placement matches and ofc because I duoqd.

Once I’m in 600 bronze and started climbing I was told that ‘sure you can easily carry bronze 3 but when you get into silver you’ll get the worst teammates and you wont have the same impact’’

When I started dominating there I was told that once I hit gold or platinum my carry would stop and that I would never get to legend.

Now it’s ‘’You play mesmer!’’ (as if it’s relevant, in almost all games I as a mesmer pushed in and 2v1d guardian+warrior, both classes should in top level be able to beat me 1v1) and of course the good old ‘’ESL!!’’

First of all, if you read my name you’ll see that I’m nothelseth so you’re confusing me with the esl player.

Second, to me there was never any question that I’d dominate here. It was however a question to a ton of forumgoers. I already know of people who are far worse than me (but still good players) that were able to climb through the ranks soloing. Obviously this is also with various different classes.

to see what I mean check out this first thread on the topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Helseth-carries-bronze-4v5

‘’Not going to happen if he just plays solo. Somewhere in gold/plat he will hit the wall of abysmal rating gains and terrible team lottery. Also don’t forget his top 10 buddies love to farm teams 300-400 ranks below them (on which Helseth will land).
As i said in other thread, you can only climb when you can basically win 1v5.’’

LUL.

I don’t understand why you guys decide to spin this in such a negative sense. It reminds me of when I was working on losing my weight and constantly encountered all these ridicilous statmeents on how it’s impossible to do so, how I’ll instantly gain it all back, etc. Genetics!

How is it more fun to look at life like this instead of seeing your own potential improvement? You’re stuck in silver? Great! That means you can get to plat once you get better. Isnt that more fun than assuming the only reason you’d get plat is because of rng and system? That’s so limiting and boring.

People see other people succeed and instead of finding improvement and motivation they go for the next excuse. Oh well.

I am more than aware of scientific practises and the necessity of being able to produce reliable consistent results based on as large a sample size as is feasible.

That’s why I was saying bringing up scientific reasoning is grasping at straws, you can’t apply scientific methodology to this and being that vested in doing so seems a bit over kill especially given the environment as you outlined. I mean come on, it’s a video game and not even a viewed by millions one at that.