Guild Wars 2

for the ppl who dont know what i’m talking about: http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-thief-acrobats-specialization1.jpg

s/d thieves are barely used nowdays becouse of the burst potential of d/p. however we dont know the elite spec from thief jet i fear the acro changes gonna dropp s/d even more behind.
acro was chosen by many(if not all) s/d’s becouse the synergy between FG(feline grace), vigorous recovery, power of inertia, 30% boon duaration and the s/d playstyle is really beneficial.
with the rework you lose most of this. you lose FG, inertia, boon duration. the main problem with this rework is the following:
your endurance pool is grately reduced becouse of the new FG, from ~3 dodges to 2. the new FG helps you in getting more vigor uptime which is highly needed becouse of the loss of 30%boon duration. right now s/d got almost perma vigor uptime if all done properely so all i see here new FG gives little to noothing but a huge nerf.

okokok.. thats enough crying on what you ‘lose’. lets talk about what you get:

#1: the choice between vigorous recovery and pain response.
#2: master trits:
-guarded initiation. this looks good after seeing hybrid guardian ticking 3k burns + 2k bleeds :‘) but i suggest lowering the 100% treshold to 95% couse of the numerous aoe fields on the ground like from warriors longbow which gonna mke this really hard to proc in a teamfight.
-swindler’s equilibrium: well this seems really powerful if not op. but id rather have old FG back than having this… ;-(

and the good stuff is over for me…:
- hard to catch rework!!!! yayyy i was really happy when i saw this @ the first time but i dont like it anymore. the fact that this has become a free stunberak is really nice but the endurance refilling portion. its clear that after we lose FGs endurance regain we need to get that elsewhere. this trait offers this, but its not in your hand. you cant mind controll you opponent to stun you to get endurance when needed also there are a lot of tiny cc-abilitys that counter this trait completely like d/p thiefs #4 etc. so i gonna take swindler’s equilibrium willingly over this any time.

-dont stop: seems really good at first look, but it has the same flawe than hard to catch. its not in your hand. basicly this trait offers you an autoattack evasion every few seconds, everyone gonna proc it on you before using meaningful abilitys. dont missunderstand me this trait is strong but i dont like the fact that its not user controlled.

endless stamina:
regaining endurance for an evade:
with no vigor: 10sec
with vigor: 5sec
with vigor+ endless stamina: 4.54? sec
so this replaces a 10% dmg trait and helps me get my evade 0,45sec faster back… thx

summary:
what you lose:
-1/3 of endurance pool (also leeds into less swiftness from minor trait)
-damage from ~4 or 5 stack might + fluid strikes(10%)
-30% boon duration
-vigor or pain response

what you get:
-2 random proc traits that are good though.
-faster steal recharge with swindler’s (op?)
-0,45 sec faster evade regain(if you got vigor)

i see acro suffering from a meaningful nerf while other traitlines are getting buffed. Karl on stream said that behind the FG change lies the idea of “promoting skillful play”. (well it has come clear that Karl does not even know how some current traits work.. do you even thief?!?!?) i dont see how nerfing one of the highest skill cap fun to play build promotes skillful play but sure you do. #random proc promotes skillful play

MadVisions.4529:

…i see acro suffering from a meaningful nerf while other traitlines are getting buffed. Karl on stream said that behind the FG change lies the idea of “promoting skillful play”. (well it has come clear that Karl does not even know how some current traits work.. do you even thief?!?!?) i dont see how nerfing one of the highest skill cap fun to play build promotes skillful play but sure you do. #random proc promotes skillful play

you forgot crit line, that will be obsolete once changes go live~

also not so sure about high skill cap, considering sd carried a lot of bad players because all they needed was spamming any evade/dodge available while opponent had to actually sit there and aim between evades if they wanted to win vs sd

that being said i do think acro got hit pretty hard together with crit line but at least there will be one viable build… those changes are not final and i hope there will be some varierity besides DA/SA/trickery~

FG is one of the most broken trait I’ve ever seen. There’s really no point defending it.

The highest skill cap build???? Are you serious? Acro S/D build is the easiest and most forgiving meta build the thief has….And sorry, random dodge because you have extra dodges does not promote skillful play.

Cynz.9437:

you forgot crit line, that will be obsolete once changes go live~

really true. forgotten about that

Keep in mind that the lost damage will be made up elsewhere since you will now get 3 FULL trait lines + minor, adept, master and grand master traits. The damage of acro thieves is going to be quite a bit higher than before. When combined with the extra dodges from weapon skills (s/d #3, d/d #3, SB #3, s/p #3) and the extra initiative on weapon swap, you can easily see that Anet is making it easier to spam dodge skills. You will actually be doing MORE damage (through using skills + having extra damage traits from new system) while still evading the same amount.

I’m not happy with FG providing a removable boon on evade. That’s not promoting skillful play, that’s promoting boon nullification/rips crippling acrobatics line.

I’m fine with actually having to evade something to be rewarded with FG, but it should directly refill endurance instead of adding time to a single stack of removable vigor.

Gabriell.4856:

FG is one of the most broken trait I’ve ever seen. There’s really no point defending it.

The highest skill cap build???? Are you serious? Acro S/D build is the easiest and most forgiving meta build the thief has….And sorry, random dodge because you have extra dodges does not promote skillful play.

It’s comments like these that make me cringe. Just by taking a look at all the passive procs that panic strike build gets carried with completly crushes your argumentation.

One might argue that S/D is easier to play than crit strikes d/p on high level pvp, but panic strike is definitely the easiest thief meta build we’ve had.

laquito.5269:

Gabriell.4856:

FG is one of the most broken trait I’ve ever seen. There’s really no point defending it.

The highest skill cap build???? Are you serious? Acro S/D build is the easiest and most forgiving meta build the thief has….And sorry, random dodge because you have extra dodges does not promote skillful play.

It’s comments like these that make me cringe. Just by taking a look at all the passive procs that panic strike build gets carried with completly crushes your argumentation.

One might argue that S/D is easier to play than crit strikes d/p on high level pvp, but panic strike is definitely the easiest thief meta build we’ve had.

“All the passive procs that panic strks build gets…”

Are we talking about true passive procs or “I going to pick this trait because it fits my arguement” procs? Panic strike isn’t truely passive at all. It take an action on your part to apply it. Lol. Now, I can agree wth Last Refuge but that gets thieves killed more often than saving them. In terms of passive procs, both build have the same amount; pain response or last refuge. What is your point?

Should be changed to: “restore 10 endurance and gain 1s vigor on successful evade.” So best of both versions: more skillful and potentially just as powerful as before.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I’m not happy with FG providing a removable boon on evade. That’s not promoting skillful play, that’s promoting boon nullification/rips crippling acrobatics line.

I’m fine with actually having to evade something to be rewarded with FG, but it should directly refill endurance instead of adding time to a single stack of removable vigor.

Yes it is skillful play, other people will be able to counter your dodge spam by removing vigor. This means they will actually be able to do something about the massive amount of evades you will still have. Instant endurance regen isn’t skillful play at all. There is nothing the person you are fighting can do to counter you. That is the opposite of skillful play.

zapv.8051:

Yes it is skillful play, other people will be able to counter your dodge spam by removing vigor. This means they will actually be able to do something about the massive amount of evades you will still have. Instant endurance regen isn’t skillful play at all. There is nothing the person you are fighting can do to counter you. That is the opposite of skillful play.

Not sure if you got the point. having bigger endurance pool on s/d is needed, do you even play the class? try to play a match w/o acro traitline. also “There is nothing the person you are fighting can do to counter you.” smells a bit. if s/d cannot be countered so winns all 1v1s then i missed something.
dont forget that you dont have on demand stealth so you are weaker against ranged pressure. thats what’s eating up a huge chunk of endurance.

acro thief is part of low risk high rewards builds category imo. I think its a good change. Even though the current panic strike vamp rune build is easier to play, I still think S/D thief or acro thief in general is cancer and promotes boring passive gameplay that relies on random dodging and hoping to proc air/fire at the right moment to deal enough DPS.

Acro nerf is good imo.

MadVisions.4529:

snip

endless stamina:
regaining endurance for an evade:
with no vigor: 10sec
with vigor: 5sec
with vigor+ endless stamina: 4.54? sec
so this replaces a 10% dmg trait and helps me get my evade 0,45sec faster back… thx

snip

This bugged me also. If endless stamina were 50% instead of 20% it would be a decent trait. Before everyone jumps on saying “50% OP!,” this would simply be a 50% increase to the effectiveness of vigor. So if standard endurance recharge is 5 per second, regular vigor is 10, and 50% would be 12.5. This would mean that since it takes 50 endurance to dodge, you’d get one dodge every 4 seconds instead of every 5. This is just 1 extra dodge every 20 seconds, assuming 100% vigor uptime.

Math:

Regular: 50/5=10seconds
Standard Vigor: 50/ (5*2)=5
Previewed Endless Stamina: 50/(5*2.2)=4.54
Suggested Endless Stamina: 50/(5*2.5)=4

Maugetarr.6823:

This bugged me also. If endless stamina were 50% instead of 20% it would be a decent trait. Before everyone jumps on saying “50% OP!,” this would simply be a 50% increase to the effectiveness of vigor. So if standard endurance recharge is 5 per second, regular vigor is 10, and 50% would be 12.5. This would mean that since it takes 50 endurance to dodge, you’d get one dodge every 4 seconds instead of every 5. This is just 1 extra dodge every 20 seconds, assuming 100% vigor uptime.

was thinking about the same lately. this seems to bee the change we need

MadVisions.4529:

zapv.8051:

Yes it is skillful play, other people will be able to counter your dodge spam by removing vigor. This means they will actually be able to do something about the massive amount of evades you will still have. Instant endurance regen isn’t skillful play at all. There is nothing the person you are fighting can do to counter you. That is the opposite of skillful play.

Not sure if you got the point. having bigger endurance pool on s/d is needed, do you even play the class? try to play a match w/o acro traitline. also “There is nothing the person you are fighting can do to counter you.” smells a bit. if s/d cannot be countered so winns all 1v1s then i missed something.
dont forget that you dont have on demand stealth so you are weaker against ranged pressure. thats what’s eating up a huge chunk of endurance.

I main 26006 S/D thief, actually, and don’t rely on Acro at all. I still do quite well with the increased crits and better burst/sustained damage potential. It’s all about playing skillfully with the dodges you have and the evades you have on your skills.

That was just to disprove that S/D relies on Acro. It really doesn’t, though it does help a lot. I agree with you on other points though, I don’t like the FG nerf either and I prefer plain endurance over uptime on a boon, especially since out 30% boon duration is now gone as well. Though, if the vigor buffing trait was buffed to like 50% like someone else suggested, I’d be cool with that.

And, of course, giving us USEFUL grandmaster traits. NONE of the current GM traits in Acro are ever usually taken for sPvP. Don’t Stop is looking promising though, from the last info I heard about it.

the new acro trait line will be very interesting when it does go live, I am in favor of the nerf to Fg – it was too easy to spam dodge for a quick 5 stacks of might. But I don’t agree that s/d is “cancer” (why even use that word on an online game lol) people complain about #3 on s/d but it’s fine for d/p to spam there shadow shot.

I rarely see s/d thieves in pvp so I don’t know how badly they abuse their dodges, only time I spam mine is if a screw up and get caught in a bomb in a team fight.

I like the people who jump at an opportunity to cry “random dodges.” It’s called anticipation. I don’t whine and cry when my Steal or IS get dodged, which happens quite often.

Now this is a different story if they just dodge 3 times in a row and hope for the best. And if that’s the case, I really don’t need to explain how you shouldn’t be beaten by that type of thief…

Smirgel.9460:

Should be changed to: “restore 10 endurance and gain 1s vigor on successful evade.” So best of both versions: more skillful and potentially just as powerful as before.

+1

I think I’d be less hesitant about Endless Stamina if the Thief had slightly broader Vigor access. Maybe in exchange for some of the defensive things in other lines?

It’s just that right now, it looks like Thieves will get vigor from one of three traits, including feline grace. Having the grandmaster minor boost its effectiveness means that minor only really matters insofar as the Thief has access to the boon. To me, the new Feline Grace doesn’t feel like it’s enough to make Endless Endurance feel strong, so to make use of it you’re either taking Vigorous Recovery, or you’re combining Acrobatics with Trickery for Bountiful Theft. Which aren’t awful traits or anything, but it seems kind of restrictive.

If there was one or two other ways to get small bits of vigor (A utility or two? Maybe a weapon skill somewhere that’s not seeing a lot of play?) the grandmaster would be much more desirable.

Don’t Stop might have the same problem, but the current 5sec ICD means it’s not as vital to have consistent swiftness uptime, as much as it is to have periodic access. Which Expeditious Dodger can provide.

zapv.8051:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I’m not happy with FG providing a removable boon on evade. That’s not promoting skillful play, that’s promoting boon nullification/rips crippling acrobatics line.

I’m fine with actually having to evade something to be rewarded with FG, but it should directly refill endurance instead of adding time to a single stack of removable vigor.

Yes it is skillful play, other people will be able to counter your dodge spam by removing vigor. This means they will actually be able to do something about the massive amount of evades you will still have. Instant endurance regen isn’t skillful play at all. There is nothing the person you are fighting can do to counter you. That is the opposite of skillful play.

You’re talking about a glassy class that is giving up either stealth uptime or raw damage for these extra dodges, mind you.

Lol , never mind. Ill just run shadow arts.

dodge spam. Lol.

All the endurance feline grace currently offers isn’t even needed. It’d be nice to have a bit more endurance (more than the rework gives) because it does complement the play style and gives some more active survivability as opposed to the likes of what most other classes have - blinds, blocks, immunity to direct damage, and invulnerability. However, with additional damage and an evade built into flanking strike, the extra endurance isn’t needed for the set to be viable, provided you still take agility signet and trade acrobatics for a significant damage boost. Post-update, all offensive builds get a damage boost anyway due to the removal of stats on trait lines and stat increases on amulets and base stats.

What does annoy me is ANet seems to not know what passives are and needs reminders from the community. The community complains about the lack of skillful play in certain traits and wants them reworked, so eventually - when they finally get around to a balance patch (actually maybe the 2nd or 3rd balance patch since the first complaint) - they do this, but in the same update introduces a bunch of new ones equally or more flawed. The latest example is adding skillful play to feline grace by requiring an actual evade and not a random ineffective-use-of-endurance dodge to get the benefits, but adding a passive random projectile dodge with don’t stop.

Oh and on removing skillful play aspect: the changes will also force all thieves into deadly arts, removing the currently existing choice between deadly arts and critical strikes. So those of us that enjoyed going for the higher damage option and hating on the passive cheese that is panic strike will no longer be able to do this, for we will be forced to take that trait to be of equal or greater use to our team, and so as not to be at a significant disadvantage vs. other thieves since every thief will now be picking it up when they inevitably specialize in that line, in addition to now having the same damage potential.

Splendid job, ANet.

Impact.2780:

Oh and on removing skillful play aspect: the changes will also force all thieves into deadly arts, removing the currently existing choice between deadly arts and critical strikes. So those of us that enjoyed going for the higher damage option and hating on the passive cheese that is panic strike will no longer be able to do this, for we will be forced to take that trait to be of equal or greater use to our team, and so as not to be at a significant disadvantage vs. other thieves since every thief will now be picking it up when they inevitably specialize in that line, in addition to now having the same damage potential.

Splendid job, ANet.

This + sigil of energy and FG becoming boonripable means I really dont give a rat’s kitten about acrobatics, because it offers nothing I couldn’t compensate for with full dps now.