Guild Wars 2

ronpierce.2760:

I’m just waiting for the day Necros get a trait that says over 90% hp they’re immune to all Power damage. Just so people fully understand what it’s like to have that kind of hard counter thrown at you.

That’s actually a good example considering necro has a ton of condition removal and ele has a ton of passive healing.

“Adapt and hit the necro with conditions”
“But they can just send them back to me!”

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If ron honestly feels like this change is taking the game in a bad direction then he has every right to speak his mind, though its better to add suggested alternates to the trait rather than simply bash it. And I dont think a Necro should have to just roll over and change their entire style of play to accomodate one class buff.

No one can argue that this is bad gameplay. I don’t feel any alternative is warranted, aside from, “remove this from the game”.

Killing someone senselessly is bad. The corrective measure is, “Dont kill someone senselessly”, not “well, perhaps you could just beat him to a pulp and leave him for dead” – no other alternative is acceptable.

garethh.3518:

jmatb.6307:

ronpierce.2760:

BlackBeard.2873:

Requiem.8769:

If you had any power, you would have been fine. You didn’t. If you’d been in a teamfight, he would have lost that 10% immediately. You’re running headfirst into a brick wall – that is one foot wide. Step 6 inches either direction and you’ll be fine. You can try to argue “oh I shouldn’t have to” and keep running into that wall, but please don’t complain about the immobility of the wall when you’re choosing to run into it.

Quoted again for truth! Necro building for 100% pure condi with a tanky amulet gets upset b/c something would require him to not be tanky with hella damage? Carrion fixes your issues. Teamfighting (which a necro should be doing anyway) fixes your problem.

People have complained that condi-builds could have glass-damage with non-glass survivability. Take a non-tank amulet and enjoy the life that power-builds have had to deal with forever (giving up some survivability for their high damage).

So; okay with this carrion thing.
“Just take carrion and adapt to meta qqqqqqqqqq!”

Condi necros lost 1 bleed to their staff 2 (the main source of condi damage on the staff, 33% nerf)

Lost 1 bleed on a (Scepter?) attack. Another decent sized nerf.

Weakening shroud got obliterated to 2 sec of weakness and a tiny bleed when used (WAY less than half its old effectiveness)

Carrion removes the bleed from proc portion from curses because it has no crit.

Then they do this. Yeah that’s not trying to fix a meta, that’s saying kitten you to necromancers.

This is why so many players are incapable of providing feedback that matters. You take this crap so personal, when all you have to do is take a deep breath, change your amulet to zerker/valks/soldiers, and run a power build.

Sigh…
So because it has counters, does that mean that it improved gameplay?

Diamond skin is not OP, it is actually, overall, pretty underpowered.
But it fits into that same mold of gameplay Anet has been pushing GW2 towards…
Faceroll OP.
Like condis, like CC-wars,like S/D thievs, like phant mesmers, like spirit rangers, exc.

In this case the skill is useless when it isn’t faceroll OP, that is bad for gameplay in either situation.

GW2 needs help.
The game is dying if not on its last leg.
GW2 is getting terribly made skills that are hurting gameplay.
That is quite literally the furthest thing from help.
With changes like these, the devs are actually using their time to make GW2 die faster…

That’s laudable.

I am the necro in the video. This is another account I have. And yes – this is 100% my view. it probably isnt amazing as a trait. But that isnt the point

so, how much this ele has hp? around 18-20k. 10% – 2k. u need only to hit 2k for direct damage to make this trait scream like a kitten.

diamond skin – crap in teamfights, crap vs hybrid power/condi, crap vs power build.

2k damage! incredibly strong!

/o\

This trait shows how devs have no clue about pvp in this game. Ofc we can agree for some counter traits/builds but this is hard counter and its a big diffrence. When u have smt like hard counter in the game u know that this game is far away from balance.

I see a lot of strange posts here. Power necro in competetive pvp? No way , its never gonna work , never , as a condi necro u are easy target to focus , on power u will be just free kill whole time.

Its funny how devs haveno idea what to do with necro , they are buffing usless traits that should not even exist , they are nerfing things that are working good. Ppl on necro forum have so many good ideas but dev not even bother to go there and read this.

I am not sure if eles will use this trait , and if this even make eles vaible , but that kind of things should not even exist. I hope some day anet will realize that they are ideas are just not working and its time to start listen to ppl who actualy play this game and sepnded thousnds of hours playing pvp.

CHeers

Diamond Skin may not be an overpowered trait, but it turns any fight against a condition necro (the only PvP viable build right now because the other specs are just too weak) into a complete one-sided slaughter. It has a similar effect against necros of any build, albeit for reduced duration.

This is because necros rely on conditions for defense. Blind, Fear, Cripple, Immobilize, Weakness, Chill, NONE of these work against Diamond Skin. A better way to make it so eles can get back into the meta (which had already shifted over two months ago from condi spam to heavy CC) with lots of conditions would be if Diamond Skin simply made them immune to condition damage.

For example, an Ele with Diamond Skin could be poisoned above 90% health to keep their regen in check, but the poison would not deal damage until they dropped below that threshold. This would still allow eles to be able to get valuable time against a condition necro, but it would also allow the necro to have an ability to actually respond to the ele.

I was in WvW just a little bit ago, and I found the perfect counter to this immunity to my condition necro. Through the power of walking off of a small cliff at 10k health, I lost 4000 health. The elementalist followed me, and was at 80% health. I proceeded to kill them.

To note, this was after I unloaded all of my skills that did decent direct damage, and didn’t even make a visible dent in his health bar, because he just healed it off passively through regeneration or Soothing Mist. I couldn’t prevent him from keeping up with me, because Necromancers have no mobility and I couldn’t blind, chill, cripple, immobilize, etc…

If this isn’t the second worst design decision since the game’s release, I don’t know what is. The fact that the only thing my build can do against another trait, not even a comprehensive build, this one trait, is walk off of cliffs, is the epitome of bad counterplay.

Well, the thing is, it’s only above 90%. Yeah sure it shafts condi necros really really hard. You have a hardcounter in a 1 versus 1 now.
Not the best way to go about balancing but hey. Atleast you don’t have to be scared for Sword/x thieves now, they are all gone! :P (maybe some stubborn ones, just stun em and be done with em! xD)

Undeadkemea.4865:

Well, the thing is, it’s only above 90%. Yeah sure it shafts condi necros really really hard. You have a hardcounter in a 1 versus 1 now.
Not the best way to go about balancing but hey. Atleast you don’t have to be scared for Sword/x thieves now, they are all gone! :P (maybe some stubborn ones, just stun em and be done with em! xD)

Always had one, AR engi.

lol fine, second hardcounter then :P

Thedenofsin.7340:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If ron honestly feels like this change is taking the game in a bad direction then he has every right to speak his mind, though its better to add suggested alternates to the trait rather than simply bash it. And I dont think a Necro should have to just roll over and change their entire style of play to accomodate one class buff.

No one can argue that this is bad gameplay. I don’t feel any alternative is warranted, aside from, “remove this from the game”.

Killing someone senselessly is bad. The corrective measure is, “Dont kill someone senselessly”, not “well, perhaps you could just beat him to a pulp and leave him for dead” – no other alternative is acceptable.

Come on man, you can be more creative than that. =P

You can senselessly torture, play cruel senseless mind games, be senselessly spiteful.. it all depends on the crime. (Wow that sounded less sick in my mind.)

The “crime”, in this case, is the current state of the Elementalist. This change was.obviously meant to improve their survivability vs conditions and yes may not exactly be the best choice but theres plenty of potential alternatives.

- @ over 90% health take 75% less damage from conditions
- attuning to earth removes 2 conditions
- “Armor of Earth” reduces condition duration by 70%

None of those may be the necessary fix, of course, but thats just an example. Too many people are so quick to go “This is bad, remove it or ur bad devs.” without giving things a chance.

Tl;dr: Too many backseat developers with unproductive knee-jerk reactions. Its easy to criticise and way harder to innovate.

OneManArmy.9732:

so, how much this ele has hp? around 18-20k. 10% – 2k. u need only to hit 2k for direct damage to make this trait scream like a kitten.

Which can take some minutes considering signet of restoration, regeneration, evasive arcana, sigil of water and all that stuff. Plus i dont think its a problem just for necros, its more about any rabid/settlers spec.

We will see if DS ele will be played, but no matter if it will, DS is just poorly designed anyway. It brings nothing positive to the game, either its useless and not beeing played or it will be used for stupid gimmick builds like AR engis which is nothing than a pain in the * and no fun for anyone.

The point isn’t to show that this trait is OP, or that Necro is weak. Frankly, this trait will not be that great in many situations; besides the point.

It is to show how bad of a design choice this is. No build should be completely unable to do anything to another, no matter what. If I wanted to go play kittening Rock Paper Scissors, I’d go play it. But I should not have to change what is otherwise a good build just so I can get someone to 90% HP.

Lopez.7369:

I really want the developers to explain what they think a condition build is supposed to do against this build.

Die? Weep? Have the exact same emotionless reaction that the devs did when previewing our new “skill”?

Okay, I laughed out loud when at the end of the first fight you said “You don’t even need the shield.”

If Necros don’t have enough damage on Staff or Scepter to get through this either with crit damage (+20% from the Soul Reaping line) or power (Carrion amulet), then I have to agree that this looks like more than a hard counter. I like the guy from the previous page that coined the term “Diamond counter”.

As a proposed nerf, I’d say only block certain conditions. Primarily the damaging ones (burn, poison, bleed, torment, confusion) so that Necros can still use snares and weakness to kite.

one more reason to avoid PvP completely.

Reading these comments, I can clearly see that most players in defense of Diamond Skin completely ignore the fact that it is not skill based. That is the main problem with it.

It really is a hard counter to pure condition builds and it does not even require the player to be good. You only have to have this trait some decent armor/regen and there you go. You can lean back, eat your popcorn and laugh in the face of every condi necros, caltrops thieves and whatnots. I do not mind if they give more condi removes to other classes, because it requires to actually use them well. Good timing, etc. This is just a braindead trait which does not make this game any better.

If i was that necro i would do alt+f4 xd

working as expected.

…sadly!

Shar.3402:

What was that necros and other op kittens were saying months ago?

Oh yeah, learn to adapt.

On the one hand, seeing OP nonsense get what it deserves feels good. On the other, this trait is kinda dumb if it actually does allow Eles to faceroll condi builds by mere virtue of having it, instead of winning by skill.

Meh, at this point in the games history, I’m beginning to think you just reroll to whatever’s the flavor of the moment because the game doesn’t look it’s going to get any better.

Both my necro and ele, reduced to this.

This is like buying a bear to chase away a wolf in your yard. You’re still kittened.

TainoFuerte.8136:

Meh, at this point in the games history, I’m beginning to think you just reroll to whatever’s the flavor of the moment because the game doesn’t look it’s going to get any better.

And this is what we are afraid of.

If you had to put your finger on what necromancers excelled at, you could have said condition and boon control. If you take this away from necromancers with passive traits like DS and AR. You basicly take away necromancers speciality. Power necros are not that strong ATM (not bad either). But if I want to play a boon remove power burst build I could just reroll to mesmer since it does that better, quicker and much safer.

From my testing so far this trait seems pretty useless in actual games and perfect for trolling condition classes in 1vs1. Not great. Id have prefered something like -50% condi duration while over 75% hp.
edit: actually another passive trait wouldn’t be too great either

Requiem.8365:

From my testing so far this trait seems pretty useless in actual games and perfect for trolling condition classes in 1vs1. Not great. Id have prefered something like -50% condi duration while over 75% hp.

This is the problem. The trait is either awful or OP, and in neither situation is there any real skill involved with the trait.

Bhawb.7408:

This is the problem. The trait is either awful or OP, and in neither situation is there any real skill involved with the trait.

Yes, after few hours of reading comments I found the perfect way to define this problem. Thanks mate!!!!!

Well, the real problem, if there was one, is the signet healing on skill activation rather than on connect. Though we see the necro winning a duel with rabid later on in that video.

If the ele was to use a different heal, this would hardly be an issue. The devs could alos increase the healing on the signet and change it so it heals only if you connect.

Let me clarify – I really like the devs and they do a great job – even though I like to moan :P. But generally this change is just lame

Change is good i have no problems with it whatsoever.Wanna play full condi easymode ?Take the risk of running into a diamond skin ele.Full condi cheese necro is too OP to feel sorry for them imo.

And about people saying change is bad for the game ,well i have to disagree .If i had to choose against condispam tank easymode meta against easymode diamond skin think what i will choose? Diamond skin has a lot of counter in comparison and it needs some actuall skill to pukll it off,other than mindless 1212314213425353532 111111111111 necro rotation

Nice tears thread.

mini.6018:

And about people saying change is bad for the game ,well i have to disagree .

Noone said change is bad, but this type of direction is not welcome. Ppl have been already complaining about passives being too strong, like HS on warrior just to give an example that has nothing to with condi immunity. Honestly I would not mind if ele had full dmg condi cleanse on his weapons every 20 sec. It would be much more interesting than this passive nonsense.

Step 1. Summon flesh golem.

Step 2. Wait for flesh golem to autoattack the ele a couple times.

Step 3. Take advantage of the hole poked into Diamond Skin and condi away. Repeat steps 2-3.

anet this is bad design please fix it.

It’s balanced as long as duels aren’t involved, then.

zone.1073:

Step 1. Summon flesh golem.

Step 2. Wait for flesh golem to autoattack the ele a couple times.

Step 3. Take advantage of the hole poked into Diamond Skin and condi away. Repeat steps 2-3.

Step 0: ele focus fires golem and 1 shots it

Just passive reduction wouldn’t be too great as well I guess. Could be changed into a short active effect on attunement switch. Just removing conditions isn’t too interesting and we have that on other stuff already, more like getting healed/receiving boons/applying conditions/ dealing dmg for each received condition for 1-2 s after swapping to earth. Needs timing, can be countered and since you always have to consider whether it might be better to keep the attunement unused for possible protection and/or stability and the weapon skills it could be pretty interesting (like you always have to consider whether you might need the 3 condiremove soon when using magnetic wave as a reflect or blast finisher).

zone.1073:

Step 1. Summon flesh golem.

Step 2. Wait for flesh golem to autoattack the ele a couple times.

Step 3. Take advantage of the hole poked into Diamond Skin and condi away. Repeat steps 2-3.

Step 1, check!
Step 2, man I can not even read this sentence with a straight face.

Have you ever played MM necro? Flesh golem attacks whenever it pleases to. Sometimes he is just standing around, sometimes it is on a quest to find a treasure. I have been playing MM necro in the last 2 months because I find it fun after playing condi necro for a year now. And one thing I obsereved is that actions of your flesh golem depends on your position, enemies position, flesh golems position, conditions on you, flesh golem, enemy, map, terrain, wind power and the position of the stars.

All jokes aside, AI is still terrible, and unreliable (flesh golems charge interrupted by every little bump on the road). If your minions choose to attack the target their damage is OP if they do not, you are screwed. (BTW ranged minions tend to attack your target more often, melees just wander around).

Step 3, if I get to this probably with a help of a teammate, check!

mini.6018:

Diamond skin… needs some actuall skill to pukll it off…

Please continue.

I was on the fence about making a necro and figured it would be best to see what happens after the patch.

This is rather disheartening to see, and of course the pve limitations with regards to conditions is pretty kittenty as well. Sounds like necros are in a bad spot all around.

Prepin.3962:

I was on the fence about making a necro and figured it would be best to see what happens after the patch.

This is rather disheartening to see, and of course the pve limitations with regards to conditions is pretty kittenty as well. Sounds like necros are in a bad spot all around.

Necro is more than fine. It is more the direction of this change. This change sows the seeds for something broken and really really lame.

I don’t even run a condition necro and this looks painful. Necro’s now have 2 full hardcounters. Mesmers moaing minion masters and ele’s running diamond skin against condition necros.

Also in the video he swapped to carrior, still got wrecked.

What people aren’t seeing is this made Ele’s CC immune too at the beginning of fights, and if they keep themselves healed enough they will remain CC immune.

mini.6018:

Wanna play full condi easymode ?Take the risk of running into a diamond skin ele. Full condi cheese necro is too OP to feel sorry for them imo.

• golf clap * Its about time somone said it straight to these peeps. Took the words out of my mouth. ITS ABOUT TIME ELES GOT SOMETHING decently USEFUL!!

Waffler.1257:

mini.6018:

Diamond skin… needs some actuall skill to pukll it off…

Please continue.

Due to the trait allocations, water attune is going to be either at half or less of its healing level. That leaves us with only our 6 skill to effectively keep us above the threshhold. Does the ele want to use his main heal to heal 1k health to maintain immunity when it could be healing for 6k of his health? what this also means is that the ele could try to maintain pressure instead and then lose his immunity, or he could stop his rotations and precisely decide whether or not to heal. which leaves you room to
A-rupt
B-continue pressure
C- heal yourself
D-set up anything your heart desires.

The skilled part lies with in the decision making process of when and when not to heal. It will take a very skilled ele to maintain his CD’s on his healing abilities and to judge if he should save them because a physical class is right around the corner, ETC, it goes on and on and on. Necro is just 1-1-1-1-1-1 scepter.

PeepMeDown.5017:

http://www.twitch.tv/lhob9944/b/486397926

Does this look fun?

actually yes…maybe necros would stop spamming kitten conditions and fears around and go for something well, little more skilled..oh and maybe try it into a teamfight, going 1v1 with a full cond dmg spec vs a class specced to specifically counter you looks both dumb and a bit staged…or do you run 5 condition necros in tpvp?

The Game Slayer.7632:

Waffler.1257:

mini.6018:

Diamond skin… needs some actuall skill to pukll it off…

Please continue.

Due to the trait allocations, water attune is going to be either at half or less of its healing level. That leaves us with only our 6 skill to effectively keep us above the threshhold. Does the ele want to use his main heal to heal 1k health to maintain immunity when it could be healing for 6k of his health? what this also means is that the ele could try to maintain pressure instead and then lose his immunity, or he could stop his rotations and precisely decide whether or not to heal. which leaves you room to
A-rupt
B-continue pressure
C- heal yourself
D-set up anything your heart desires.

The skilled part lies with in the decision making process of when and when not to heal. It will take a very skilled ele to maintain his CD’s on his healing abilities and to judge if he should save them because a physical class is right around the corner, ETC, it goes on and on and on. Necro is just 1-1-1-1-1-1 scepter.

Really? That video looked sooo hard for the ele. Timing the non-use of his healing skill (it never got used) and just hitting damage constantly with some dodges thrown in.

Condition necros were difficult to counter, but it was possible with good play. Diamond Skin is impossible to counter without a complete rebuild.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The Game Slayer.7632:

Waffler.1257:

mini.6018:

Diamond skin… needs some actuall skill to pukll it off…

Please continue.

Due to the trait allocations, water attune is going to be either at half or less of its healing level. That leaves us with only our 6 skill to effectively keep us above the threshhold. Does the ele want to use his main heal to heal 1k health to maintain immunity when it could be healing for 6k of his health? what this also means is that the ele could try to maintain pressure instead and then lose his immunity, or he could stop his rotations and precisely decide whether or not to heal. which leaves you room to
A-rupt
B-continue pressure
C- heal yourself
D-set up anything your heart desires.

The skilled part lies with in the decision making process of when and when not to heal. It will take a very skilled ele to maintain his CD’s on his healing abilities and to judge if he should save them because a physical class is right around the corner, ETC, it goes on and on and on. Necro is just 1-1-1-1-1-1 scepter.

Really? That video looked sooo hard for the ele. Timing the non-use of his healing skill (it never got used) and just hitting damage constantly with some dodges thrown in.

Condition necros were difficult to counter, but it was possible with good play. Diamond Skin is impossible to counter without a complete rebuild.

You’ve never played an ele, I can tell. Go ahead, roll a D-skin ele. I’ll laugh when you get steam-rolled.

After the summer of Dumbfire, I have absolutely no sympathy for condi necros whatsoever and am glad they have to actually think about giving up some survivability to win 1v1s, invest in blood magic, or maybe do axe or dagger instead of staff.

Got to love the whole “just take flesh golem” (he did at 1:30 into the 9:48 minute long video) and “just take carrion” (again, he did at 2:35). Have these people actually watched the video?

I don’t have a problem with this trait existing. More traits should be so powerful/unique/niche. But where is the Necro’s equally groundbreaking equivalent? The devs take such baby steps with any buffs we get, yet are clearly more than willing to roll the dice on other professions.

Yeah before u kill them now you qq

Draehl.2681:

I don’t have a problem with this trait existing. More traits should be so powerful/unique/niche. But where is the Necro’s equally groundbreaking equivalent? The devs take such baby steps with any buffs we get, yet are clearly more than willing to roll the dice on other professions.

Scepter and staff should scale with power better (currently the scaling and base damage is awful) then this trait wouldnt be so bad. Currently, DS is a ticking time bomb. It will be broken eventually

Maybe not starting with 0% of your own proffesion mechanic would be a good next step, anet?

Btw,
Guys stop playing condi necro. 3/8 classes already hard counter it, not counting necro vs necro “hot potato games”