Guild Wars 2

-Dungeons are meant for teamplay.

-Magic Find limits your building paths since only certain items do have this stat.
=> People refuse to reskill / change their build to be more of a help to their team

-Magic Find makes you “waste” power worth a complete set-stat bonus.
=>Using magic find in a dungeons lowers your damage and/or survivability output by a lot.
==>Your whole team pays the bill for that.

-Magic find overall is considered a “must have” stat.
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Overall magic find is extremely counterproductive to teamplay.
You either give your best for your team, or you don’t.
Taking magic find means you’re lowering the power of your team while hoping to gain a personal benefit from it.
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I got a complete magic find gear and I really feel caught between either impairing my team or myself.

In my opinion you should always be motivated to do whats best for your team, but it everything inside of me screams that I’m shooting in my own knee if I refuse to grab those 78% magic find.
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One might consider increasing the normal drop rate in dungeons to make up for the loss.

E/:

[…]
=> You loose 65% crit damage you could have instead of magic find.

You have an approx. 50% base chance to crit with a normal crit build.
You should have fury up half of the time in most dungeons groups.

65*0.7*0,5 +65*0,5*0,5= 39%

So by taking Magic Find you give up 39% damage
In most scenarios (2 Warrios /Ranger…) fury will be up all the time making it 65×0,7= 45,5% damage you sacrifice.

How about we remove magic find gear completely? I see absolutely no point to keeping two sets of gear just to have a higher probability of magic items dropping. It’s basically, you become useless to your dream and have a higher chance for drops, or you do well for your team and you get kitteny drops. WTF?

Sdric.8526:

One might consider increasing the normal drop rate in dungeons to make up for the loss.

Wont help at all. Increased drop rates will only make MF set more lucrative for players to wear in dungeons (to get certain loot most of the time or every time) which is exactly opposite of what you wanted. The only way to discourage wearing MF set is either set 100% drop rates in dungeons (which is bad) or remove drop from all dungeon inhabitants (which is not as bad as 100% drop rates, but then they’ll have to add cores/lodestones to drop somewhere else).

Mob’s ai in dungeons should target anyone first with MF runes or gear down till they break all the MF gear on the MF players.

If there isn’t anything super valuable you can only get from dungeon mobs, I’d be fine with the OP’s suggestion. Dungeons are suppose to be team-oriented.

Removing it entirely is unfair to players that just want to have fun in their own way.
If they’re soloing, they aren’t hurting anybody. Except the mobs. :P

@zbrkesbr
The increase of rare drops should only take place if MF-gear really gets disabled for dungeons.
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@all
I’m happy to see people are with me.
I expected a lot of hate from MF-users.
It’s good to see people agree that the current state of MF gear is problematic – specially in dungeons.

It should be completely disabled in dungeons.

I’m totally with runeblade on this.
Remove MF’ing from the game, or make AI always target whoever has the most pieces of gear with MF or MF nourishment.

I agree that only a kitten brings MF to a dungeon. Dungeons are reliant on teamwork and cooperative play and part of that is having gear that benefits yourself AND others. MF is self only.

To play devil’s advocate though, what if a guild group wants to run a dungeon with MF gear to get drops? If MF is 100% disabled in dungeons, they can’t do this. For reasons like this, MF being disabled is unlikely.

I’ve racked my brain and haven’t come up with an acceptable fix for this. Everything I can think of leads to ‘elitist’ scenarios where people are removed from parties for ‘sub-par’ gear.

This is a really ridiculous idea. Hey lets remove condition damage from the game cause it does damage over time and I think my build is stronger without it. Or lets remove toughness from the game people that stack it have less vitality and I think they die more so it should be removed or disabled in dungeons. Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds. There is not a single dungeon you can’t beat with a team of people wearing mf gear and it doesn’t have to be statted for their build in order to do it. So lets move on because you raging in a suggestion post about somone who didn’t do well in your dungeon run isn’t a concern for balancing or change. Next time invite friends instead of randoms.

I agree, magic find should not work in dungeons.

@Jigga

You are the only one who’s raging in this topic.
You’re extremely aggressive since you don’t want to give up magic find since it could lower your income.
What’s the result?
You just posted the only aggressive and offensive post in this topic so far.
Which is a great help to underline my point of view, how toxic MF can be for a community/teamgame.

Condition damage helps your team.
Damage=Precision=Crit. Damage helps your team.
Healing Power helps your team.
Anything that makes you more durable allows you live longer, deal more damage; hence: helps your team.

Magic find does absolutely nothing for your team.
The only thing it’s good for is your own purse.
That’s exactly what makes it a toxic element within a teamgame

Not just dungeons – Anet should remove it from the game.

Or make it purely a consumable-based stat (boosters and food). Karma, gold, and gathering bonus chances aren’t equipment-based – so why is MF?

I repeatedly run dungeons. I do multiple paths. I have yet to be in a party that does not finish the path we are working on. Sometimes I wear my regular armor, sometimes I wear my magic find set. You would never know the difference unless I told you. Generally I do not notice a sizable difference in the production of my character either way. I also tend to try and play smart. IE: Not standing in red circles, knowing my boss fights, ect. I understand that there are bad players in the game. I also understand that certain builds require specific stats. That being said, I really don’t think removing MF is going to solve anything. Those players are still going to be bad no matter what. My opinion is that it is already hard enough to make money in this game, and I am going to use whatever small advantage I can to keep up with the over inflated price of things in the auction house. If you want to stop MF use then start with the problem itself (The over inflation caused by botting, and chinese gold farmers.) MF use is just a symptom of a much larger problem. Until the prices on the AH come back down to earth many people (Myself included) are going to do whatever it takes to keep up. Frankly, Plinx farming for 8 hours a day every day is not how I want to spend my time playing the game. I will continue to run dungeons. Sometimes I will wear my MF gear. Chances are you won’t know when it’s happening,

I agree wholeheartedly that magic find should be removed from gear, especially due to the growing issues regarding the overabundant use of this performance inhibiting stat in pick-up/pug groups.

Anet should simply increase the MF% on the consumables for people who want a higher chance at rare drops. This would force players to actually use performance enhancing stats instead of holding their group back for personal gains. Also, the MF% cooking food would be more profitable as well.

Please Anet! I’m begging you to remove MF% from gear and increase the consumable MF% options instead. PLEAAAASSSEE!!!

Anybody who uses a MF consumable in a dungeon should be kicked from the group. This is a team game, you should be using consumables that help the team, not yourself.

You see what I did there?

This argument is old. Very old. It has been around since the headstart weekend. Magic Find gear is the hardmode. It is the gear that people use when they do not find the content challenging.

You want to claim that magic find severely hampers performance? Prove it. Show me that a skilled player in magic find gear contributes less than a novice player in appropriate gear—don’t just claim it, establish proof.

At level 80, exotcs have approximately 13% more stats than rares. However, you don’t gain 13% by upgrading rares to exotics, you gain about 4%—your traits and base stats are so much higher than what you get from gear. The actual impact is fairly minimal, and well within the margin of error presented by varied skillsets.

Edit: Removed the part that Sdric referenced in his reply, as he was right, I did overlook that part in my initial read. It does not, however, invalidate my argument.

@Fildydarie

It would be nice if you could actually read a topic before you respond.
But I’ll quote the important part you falsely refer at.

Condition damage helps your team.
Damage=Precision=Crit. Damage helps your team.
Healing Power helps your team.
Anything that makes you more durable allows you live longer, deal more damage; hence: helps your team.

Magic find does absolutely nothing for your team.
The only thing it’s good for is your own purse.
That’s exactly what makes it a toxic element within a teamgame

E:
I’ll do you the favor and add a mathematical prof:
Magic Find takes the spot of Critical Damage.
=> You loose 65% crit damage you could have instead of magic find.

You have an approx. 50% base chance to crit with a normal crit build.
You should have fury up half of the time in most dungeons groups.

65*0.7*0,5 +65*0,5*0,5= 39%

So by taking Magic Find you give up 39% damage
In most scenarios (2 Warrios /Ranger…) fury will be up all the time making it 65×0,7= 45,5% damage you sacrifice.

Now please.
Tell me again you ain’t hurting your team when you swap a damage stat for personal-purse-boost (Magic find).

But when I have more money I can afford better / more vaired gear, I can respec more often, I can stock up more consumables… these things help too.

Edit: Obciously I’m going a little overboard on the sarcasm here, but the basic fact is valid—everything helps. There is so much that is not gear in this game that contributes far more. Give me proof that magic find is as toxic as you say, that it is not within the skill threshold, and you have my support.

captaincrunch.6731:

This is silly. Food is not a prerequisite for dungeon running nor should it be. You can get by just find with an appropriate potion for teh dungeon you are in and make due with the +70 condition damage or power that a magic find food item gives you. If you boot someone for this you are just being a jerk.

The problem here is people completely removing a potential 3rd stat from their gear in favor of magic find – which is a different story and, in my opinion, stupid. I don’t even want to use it in normal pve but I feel like I’m only hampering myself by not doing so.

Food gives stats.
Gear gives stats.

I fail to see how you can claim that stats from one source are inherently different than stats from another.

I also fail to see how you can claim that consumable buffs (more than just food) are not a prerequisite. If there is a prerequisite, it would be a stat threshold. Consumbles can help you meet this threshold. So does armor quality and level.

At level 80, you have over 3600 stat points inherently. You have 1400 points from traits. A full set of exotic armor weighs in around 1000 points. If you equip full MF and ignore that, you’re sitting around 700 from gear. 6000 vs. 5700. This is a 5% drop in overall stats, which is well within the range of contribution from player skill. Over half that difference can be overcome with a single food buff, and you can stack multiple consumables.

Forgive me for being dismissive of the arguments presented, but the numbers say that consumables can offset MF, player skill can offset MF, gear quality can offset MF, and the lack of a clear baseline for what is ‘appropriately geared’ makes this a witch hunt and not a reasoned argument.

I have done dungeons with my magic find gear, and am now slowly working on some gear with mercy runes cause I’m sick of being the last one standing at times and mercy runes will help me raise people a little quicker while protecting me while raising them. But in your opinion I should not use these runes or the armor I’ve got for it. According to you I should either work on pure damage builds, so something like power/prec/crit to kill faster (while being able to die faster as well) and throw in some runes of infiltration or something like it. … making me one squishy person … you have to balance group with your own survivability … heck I play WvWvW with my magic set atm cause I havent completed the alternative and I do just fine. Squishy players make dungeons harder, specially when they keep dieing, not players with MF or some other self gratifying stat like toughness, healing, vitality.

I took crit. as an example since it’s the most easy stat to do maths with.

Of cause you can take Vitality or Toughness instead.
If you’re downed you deal less damage.
If a teammate has to pick you up from the floor he can’t deal damage.
+Those stats allow you to stay longer in fight.
Hence: Toughness and Vitality are good for your team.
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This is the 2nd time I explain this.
I won’t explain it a 3rd time.
You either don’t want to understand it, or don’t want to.

Magic find is the only stat which doesn’t help you infight or in any other way to succeed in a dungeon.
It only helps you purse.
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@wildcode
It was your choice to buy a magic find gear instead of a fighting gear.
Buying a magic find gear first basically says: screw everybody I’ll be teamed up with, as long as I can make profit out of it.

Magic find in dungeons simply is leeching.
And I for my part hate leechers.

If you’re playing with your guild, well it’s up to you guys.
But if you pick up somebody random to carry you through this I won’t cry a tear for you loosing magic find.

Sdric.8526

You have an approx. 50% base chance to crit with a normal crit build.
You should have fury up half of the time in most dungeons groups.

65*0.7*0,5 +65*0,5*0,5= 39%

So by taking Magic Find you give up 39% damage
In most scenarios (2 Warrios /Ranger…) fury will be up all the time making it 65×0,7= 45,5% damage you sacrifice.

Now please.
Tell me again you ain’t hurting your team when you swap a damage stat for personal-purse-boost (Magic find).

I don’t run a crit build. I run a condition damage / support build.

I don’t run with 2 warriors, and the ranger I run with doesn’t give fury. The warrior I often run with doesn’t either.

I didn’t say it doesn’t take away form the team, I jsut said that MF is not the source of all evil. My son’s reflexes are not on par with mine, so he gets downed at least once per boss fight. Between time spent on his back, time spent avoiding hits so he can heal up, and slightly sub-par gear, I contribute far more in my MF gear than he does in full combat gear. What about the players that stack crit damage but no precision, or ignore the base damage from power? What about players that don’t use half the skills on their bar, or never pop their elites, or any of the other ways you can offer a sub-par performance. What is is about magic find gear that is so horrible? So why don’t we just face the fact that there are other ways to detract from a group that are far more severe than wearing magic find gear.

And, just for the record… I generally don’t wear MF gear in dungeons. But I’m a libertarian at heart, so I fight the good fight.

Fildydarie.1496:

Sdric.8526

You have an approx. 50% base chance to crit with a normal crit build.
You should have fury up half of the time in most dungeons groups.

65*0.7*0,5 +65*0,5*0,5= 39%

So by taking Magic Find you give up 39% damage
In most scenarios (2 Warrios /Ranger…) fury will be up all the time making it 65×0,7= 45,5% damage you sacrifice.

Now please.
Tell me again you ain’t hurting your team when you swap a damage stat for personal-purse-boost (Magic find).

I don’t run a crit build. I run a condition damage / support build.

I don’t run with 2 warriors, and the ranger I run with doesn’t give fury. The warrior I often run with doesn’t either.

I didn’t say it doesn’t take away form the team, I jsut said that MF is not the source of all evil. My son’s reflexes are not on par with mine, so he gets downed at least once per boss fight. Between time spent on his back, time spent avoiding hits so he can heal up, and slightly sub-par gear, I contribute far more in my MF gear than he does in full combat gear. What about the players that stack crit damage but no precision, or ignore the base damage from power? What about players that don’t use half the skills on their bar, or never pop their elites, or any of the other ways you can offer a sub-par performance. What is is about magic find gear that is so horrible? So why don’t we just face the fact that there are other ways to detract from a group that are far more severe than wearing magic find gear.

And, just for the record… I generally don’t wear MF gear in dungeons. But I’m a libertarian at heart, so I fight the good fight.

Sdric.8526:

I took crit. as an example since it’s the most easy stat to do maths with.

Of cause you can take Vitality or Toughness instead.
If you’re downed you deal less damage.
If a teammate has to pick you up from the floor he can’t deal damage.
+Those stats allow you to stay longer in fight.
Hence: Toughness and Vitality are good for your team.
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This is the 2nd time I explain this.
I won’t explain it a 3rd time.
You either don’t want to understand it, or don’t want to.

Magic find is the only stat which doesn’t help you infight or in any other way to succeed in a dungeon.
It only helps you purse.

Wait a sec… you just said that if I run with my guild it is fine… how is it fine if you insist that it be banned from dungeons? What if it is a PuG but everybody agrees? I’ve pugged explorables with everybody in magic find gear (no, we didn’t exploit).

You can’t argue that there should be a game-based rule to prevent this but accept there are times where it is permitted. You either accept the practice is valid or invalid.

Food gives stats.
Gear gives stats.
I fail to see how you can claim that stats from one source are inherently different than stats from another.

The stat gain from food is nowhere close to the amount gained from looking at 1 specific stat from a full set of gear. Also, based on your argument, it’s safe to say that discussing this topic with someone like you is not going to provide any worthwhile constructive criticism.

The common suggestion is to take MF% off of gear while buffing the consumables, so players can only have effective performance stats through gear & have the option of high MF% from food if they’d like without having to burden their group.

I say that keep MF gear. Fildydarie said that MF gear is the hard mode. But there is nothing hard by staying behind your teammates and let them do the work.

But I do like the suggestion that MF gear should be hard mode, lets make it actually hard mode, I suggest that if you have MF gear that is higher than 0%, you will get extra damage from dungeon mobs and the dungeon mob’s ai will always be set to kill anyone with the highest MF gear. This way, it does help the team. While the MF player are attracting the mob and dying repeatedly, the other teammates will thank you that you are willing to tank and die for them.

Why not just make the MF values affect all loot drops
for every party member in the dungeon, or have the
values affect all coin drops in dungeons for all party members.

@runeblade: Troll elsewhere. The concept of hard mode is that the challenge increases as does the reward. A voluntary reduction in your stats for added reward is just that. If you need those extra stats to make up for your natural ability, that is fine, but don’t claim that I hide in the back like a coward and don’t contribute. If I can go 4v1 (I’m the 1) in WvW in my MF gear and win, there is a determining factor in the outcome that is not the stats on my gear. Maybe I don’t need all that extra toughness and vitality in dungeons because I can dodge effectively and avoid damage. You don’t know me, so don’t pretend that I’m some bumbling fool that can’t accomplish anything on my own.

@Six: Half the loss due to MF can be had in a food buff. I said that. There are other consumables that stack with food buffs as well; two consumables and you have overcome the MF “deficit”. I said that too.

Food also gives things that you don’t get on basic armor. Things like condition duration modifiers, stun resistance, boon procs, etc.

Since the contribution from food is optional, and MF food is being encouraged by the people arguing with me (you in particular), how is it unreasonable for me to say that my build doesn’t need more of the stats that are on gear already, that I need stats that can only be had through food?

If you want to complain about people ruining dungeon runs or not contributing, that is fine, but it is pretty obvious that a lot of you don’t know what you’re talking about, you’re just ranting because you had a bad group and you need to take it out on somebody. You’re making up arguments about how these people cannot contribute because of their choice in gear. They can. This doesn’t mean they will merely that the attribute you have identified is not actually the problem—plenty of people in combat gear don’t contribute. There are lots of ways to offer a sub-par performance, and they extend well beyond gear. Should we ban necromancers from dungeons because their skills are currently less effective than they should be? Should we mandate level 80 with full exotics? Downgrading from exotic to rare is effectively the same as wearing exotic MF armor, after all. When you look at the actual numbers involved, this is the same argument you are making, and it is patently rediculous.

It is voluntary but it does not give the MF player any challenge. It puts more burden on the teammates.

I think a better solution would be to average your magic find with everyone in your party’s magic find and give that magic find to everyone in your party. Everybody wins!

The OP is complaining about MF but if you read carefully what he is complaining about is people wearing armor that does not give HIM an advantage in dungeons. He says team, but the fact is, he wants others to give him more advantages in dungeons. In this cause I suggest the OP work with his guild and all group up with armor that gives group bonuses.

Another MF hate topic. Getting old guys.

I think the problem is the way people are looking at it. Its hard for me to explain so I’ll do it as a hypothetical.
Lets say for the sake of argument, that when you have a full 5 man team, you get a team power score. Now a perfectly balanced team with the best gear in game would score a 1,000. Each person would be adding 200 points to the score.

Now the problem is if someone only scores a 150 they are seen as “hurting the group” 50 points instead of seeing it at contributing 150 points to the group.

Its kinda like that, but with “You play my way or you dont play” mixed in.

MF should be removed from the game, honestly there isn’t enough to be had in this game to justify MF based stat. Some people are luckier than others whether its good RNG or bad RNG there should never be a modifier that runs the entire game. People should play to have fun, and also part of that fun is the random awesome drop, MF makes people want to increase that awesome drop and instead of playing the game for fun and awesome drops, they set out in pursuit of only awesome drops.

No need for people, all you need is time and MF, screw everything else – Worst design of an MMO.

Magic Find is not as good a s people make it out to be, I usually have to spend 2-3 days in cursed shore taking hours at a time to chain the right events to make just 10G from drops over those few days. I have full MF armor with priate runes, full magic find jewels, and magic find weapons … plus omnomberry bars. Might take an hour or so to fill up my inv, sell greens and blues, salvage whites and yellows. People who are making 20-30G a day farming mobs are having much better “luck” than I am with my MF gear.

wildcode.5403:

Magic Find is not as good a s people make it out to be, I usually have to spend 2-3 days in cursed shore taking hours at a time to chain the right events to make just 10G from drops over those few days. I have full MF armor with priate runes, full magic find jewels, and magic find weapons … plus omnomberry bars. Might take an hour or so to fill up my inv, sell greens and blues, salvage whites and yellows. People who are making 20-30G a day farming mobs are having much better “luck” than I am with my MF gear.

I had +5% magic find on my Slayer Coat. I found so many yellow items it was disgusting.

Found a Strong Pirate Coat of Vampirism (which I’m currently using), a whatever pistol of earth (which I’m using), a ton of axes of earth, a harpoon gun of earth, actually I’ve found one of each type of weapon (of earth) all with major sigils of earth on them…I’m actually sad I didn’t salvage it so I could get back the rune of whatever I put on my coat because of the amazing drops it helped me get consistently.

Anyhow what if magic find applied to everyone in the party (non-stackable, so if 1 person had 5% magic find and another had 15% the party would only get +15% magic find) for dungeons only?

I think that would be viable.

BabelFish, I’m not that lucky. I get 3 yellows per full inventory (96 slots) if I’m lucky.

Yes, simple solution to this issue would be make a MF party buff, so everyone benifits from my 195+% MF …

That’s harsh…hopefully you get some better luck with your MF items…