Guild Wars 2

…is really out of the question, it would push us beyond overpowered, not to mention the most convoluted class in the history of convoluted classes. Even if our current full 20-skill burst is underwhelming in damage, a 40-skill burst would be ridiculous.

And out-of-combat weapons switch doesn’t fix our WvW problems. You can be in combat for a solid hour or more in WvW, and during that time the situation can completely change, making your current weapons set inapplicable. And the only way you can switch is by fleeing the battle and returning, cheating yourself out of fun and experience you rightfully deserve to participate in.

HOWEVER… I have a suggestion that will allow us to have an in-combat weapon swap, without breaking our class.

Give us a second weapon set, but make the CD tied in to our attunement system.

• Each time you switch attunements, the CD of your weapon swap will go up by 30 seconds, maxing out at 90 seconds. Likewise, when you swap weapons, each of the attunements will have a 20 second CD added to it, maxing out at 60. Neither of these CDs will work with the Arcane tree, so the arcane tree will be maintained as it is. Additionally, the standard CDs for weapon swapping and attunement swapping will be unaltered, except wherein they are altered by equipment or traits.

This will:

1. Allow you to open with one weapon and one attunement, and switch to a second on the secondary weapon, effectively allowing for ‘initiator’ strategies other classes have that the elementalist lacks.
2. Those traits which only help you in one attunement will actually be useful. If you really like earth, and are fully specced with traits that only work while attuned to earth, by weapon swapping you will now be able to stay in earth for long enough to feel like those traits actually do something.
3. If your current weapon set puts you at a disadvantage of range, you will be able to switch weapons so long as you don’t fully commit to the battle before figuring that out.
4. Allow you to adapt to the current situation in WvW. Never again will you turn from defending your keep to offense against the enemy and be forced in to a supportive roll because your staff AoE’s do nothing versus a fleeing enemy.
5. The stance dance system will be unaffected. If a player likes playing the elementalist as it is currently, (taking arcane talents and swapping attunements like a kindergartner on speed) he or she will still be able to do that. But if a player imagines playing a Geomancer, or a Hydromancer, or specializing in one or two of the attunements, that playstyle will now be available. This really doesn’t add anything more than build versatility, something the elementalist greatly lacks in PvP and PvE.

I made a suggestion about nearly the same thing here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Where-is-my-Geomancer-Hydromancer-Pyro-ect-ect/first#post356375

But basicly yeah.

Make it a 30 point Grandmaster trait called “Pyromancer, hydromancer, ect ect” that you have to get, then you unlock a 2nd weapon set but available only in that aspects you have unlocked it for.

Carrioncrow.6872:

I made a suggestion about nearly the same thing here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Where-is-my-Geomancer-Hydromancer-Pyro-ect-ect/first#post356375

But basicly yeah.

Make it a 30 point Grandmaster trait called “Pyromancer, hydromancer, ect ect” that you have to get, then you unlock a 2nd weapon set but available only in that aspects you have unlocked it for.

Nice idea, I could see either helping to fix the Ele’s lack of diversity. Thanks.

Updated the OP with some extended info, have a look-see.

More choice = always good

Would love to use a second set (D/D) for offensive purposes.

/signed

@ OP: the only thing you propose is that elementalists keep switching weapons and traits and skills (the one on the right bar) manually all the time really.
Which is like, most broken game design ever.
You can’t just say “if there is no switch-skill then people won’t switch weapons”, of course they will, nay they are forced to, by the frigging broken class design, read: one which does NOT provide an switch-skill, yet provides elementalists with the ability to utilize different weapons/skills/traits.

Edit: Shouldn’t post too late at night – no clue to whom this posting should be a proper response

no… its unique to the class.. no weapon swap but 5 different weapon loadouts.
dont like the mechanic dont play the class.
seriously

why play the class IF YOU DONT LIKE THE MECHANIC???
you can play any of the other classes. im not saying this to be a bad person, i can see asking for buffs or nerfs or a skill change but when you want to change the mechanic i have to ask…. WHY PLAY THE CLASS if you dont want the mechanic!!?!?!?!?

did I ask that enough?

Antiriad
You didn’t even read my post did you? The whole point is that you won’t be able to switch both attunements and weapons because they share the same CD, please read before responding next time. And… frankly… try to make at least some sense when you respond, I’m still not entirely sure I’m reading your post correctly.

BishopX
So, because the class builds and plays the way you like it, and ONLY the way you like, alienating a huge amount of players (as evidenced by the 1-2 pages of changes suggested each and every day), everyone else should be forced to play like you or not at all? That’s childish, selfish, and if you think that way, you’re hopeless and not worth any more of my time. Take your self-important imperialistic will and attempt enforce it someplace else, because it’ll be neither heeded nor welcomed here.

I love your idea. As an aspiring Elementalist, I’m having issues deciding between double daggers and a staff, and it’s annoying being trapped into one or the other in longer fights, where both could be viable.

The problem I have is that wherein I love certain Dagger skills (Cone of Cold, Ride the Lightning, Earthquake), it’s sad to see that I would lose out on those Staff skills I also love (Windborne Speed, Eruption, Shockwave). Even in my examples, it would seem that I like Lightning and Earth a lot (and I do), but I cannot use them to their greatest extent, ’cause not all of the Lightning or Earth abilities are available to me. Allowing me to become an Aeromancer and/or Geomancer is an appealing notion.

I wouldn’t get worked up too hard about the above two; I took the time to read through your layout, and you made a supporter out of me

Edit: While my Sylvari Elementalist at the time of writing this is fairly low-level, I do have a level 80 Human Guardian, so I’m not entirely new to Guild Wars 2. The ability to switch from AoE-DPS-Machine with my Greatsword to I-Might-Be-In-Over-My-Head with my Mace+Shield is an invaluable asset, and one that is not really available to my mage. The Attunements are supposed to do that, and yet they don’t as readily as switching between the weapons can; my Ranger can go from Axe + Dagger to a Shortbow in seconds, drastically changing his range mid-combat, while my Elementalist just changes what she does while still trapped at short-range.

I may not have the answer, but I can tell even this quickly into my new profession that I could use some help.

@Conncept: yep, edited my posting accordingly

Weapon swap would not OP elementalist. The way the different sets are set up they really limit elementalist right now as just changing elements does not make up for some situations. As mentioned it really does make you feel trapped by weapon limits.

maybe this limit is a payoff for more skills then other characters have, i dont think ele needs a weapon swap… and if you go to dungeon/wvw/party you can swap it in inventory

It is annoying to swap in inventory. Manually changing back and forth between D/D, S/D and Staff is a real pain in the A. There is no reason why we can’t have this feature for when we are out of combat just to be easier on the player.

MaXi.3642:

maybe this limit is a payoff for more skills then other characters have, i dont think ele needs a weapon swap… and if you go to dungeon/wvw/party you can swap it in inventory

But that still doesn’t solve a great deal of our problems in WvW or dungeons. I assume you’ve done AC, and as such fought the Ranger Lieutenant (can’t remember his name at the moment). Have you ever tried to fight him with daggers? He switches between meleeing you, and attacking you from range on an isolated platform. Every other class can swap between melee and ranged and fight him seamlessly. But if you’re an elementalist who has slotted daggers, you will be lucky to pull off half of your normal DPS while he is in ranged mode because you have to wast time chasing him up on to his platform, while everyone else just swaps weapons without missing out on a single point of DPS.

The game is riddled with such situations in every mode from PvP to WvW and even in to PvE; and in my opinion, it should not be. I should be able to adjust my strategy in combat like every other class can.

You get the attunements and that’s what you’ll have to work with. If you’re not up to it, then please do not go to the forums asking for a buff.

There’s no ‘switching strategy’ with swapping weapons. Don’t confuse range with strategy. You can switch strategy by switching attunement. For staves, this means setting up a different combo (with ice field instead of lava font) or using your water auto attack to gain it’s heals when your opponent’s at a shorter range.

Use your skills creatively. The different strategies are already available. Even the daggers have longer ranged skills that can help you close the fight (or use your utility slots to compensate).

Conncept.7638:

Nice idea, I could see either helping to fix the Ele’s lack of diversity.

Lack of diversity? Between the 4 attunements which all do completely different things and the combos they can make, hoe more diverse do you wanna get?

If elementalists don’t get a weapon switch skill of any sort, then please, Arenanet, just remove the possibility to change equipped weapons in any battleground while out of combat too! So there will no longer be a felt obligation to actually do go through the hassle of manually switching weapons (depending on 1v1/zerg/travel/group scenario that pops up dynamically) because one theoretically CAN do it..
Side note @ThiBash: Unfortunately you do not know the class well.

15 sec weapons swap sounds great. It basically opens up a new avenue of playstyle.

ThiBash.5634:

You get the attunements and that’s what you’ll have to work with. If you’re not up to it, then please do not go to the forums asking for a buff.

There’s no ‘switching strategy’ with swapping weapons. Don’t confuse range with strategy. You can switch strategy by switching attunement. For staves, this means setting up a different combo (with ice field instead of lava font) or using your water auto attack to gain it’s heals when your opponent’s at a shorter range.

Use your skills creatively. The different strategies are already available. Even the daggers have longer ranged skills that can help you close the fight (or use your utility slots to compensate).

Conncept.7638:

Nice idea, I could see either helping to fix the Ele’s lack of diversity.

Lack of diversity? Between the 4 attunements which all do completely different things and the combos they can make, hoe more diverse do you wanna get?

1. The only way to deal semi-decent damage as an elementalist is to stance dance through the full four attunements at all times. You admit this, and if you like playing that way, good for you. But please, stop being a child and refusing to let other people play in any other way.

2. In order to maximize the effectiveness of the stance dance, you are FORCED to fully spec in to the arcane tree. That is practically the singular playstyle available to elementalists in PvP. And yet you claim that this narrow singular playstyle forced on the entire playerbase is, in fact, diverse. Diversity is not mere numbers, having a massive amount of skills available at a single time is not diverse if all of those skills have the same range, deal the same damage, and have the same utility.

Which is more diverse, a can of 100 mixed nuts, or a bag of 1000 peanuts? By your logic, the giant bag of peanuts, however in the real world the mixed nuts is in spite of it’s lower numbers.

3. This is NOT what most of the playerbase expected of the elementalist when it was previewed, it does not fulfill fantasy archetypes desired by players, or expectations of diversity of style.

And if you look in the traits it IS intended, or was at some point, to have non-stance dance playstyles available. There are dozens of traits and abilities which reward you for staying in the same attunement for a significant amount of time, however these traits are currently useless because the damage and utility output of every single elementalist ability is currently balanced against its possible use in conjunction with all other available abilities. As they should be, because the stance dance should be a viable playstyle, and still would be with this change, if you like playing the elementalist as is, this doesn’t hurt you. But, with this addition, singular or dual attunement builds would now have sufficient skills to make use of the traits and abilities which encourage you to cater to a certain attunement, and as a result will potentially open up dozens of builds which are and will always be useless under the current system.

Anyone who played a Bard in EQ, DAoC, SB, and LoTRO can tell you just how much variability there is to “class expectation”. As to this not fitting with fantasy archetype, perhaps that’s why they didn’t call it Wizard or Mage?

I wouldn’t mind fast weapon switch out of combat, but only as an improved UI, not to change the class. In combat I think it would unbalance things. We’re forced to switch out of combat as we assess what kind of combat we’re headed into at the moment. Other classes have different types of compromises (e.g. Mesmer can only switch between two sets though have access to eight, each of which only have five abilities, though of course there’s a good deal more complexity to it…).

Lack of in-combat weapon switching is ours.

And of course, the bugs and balance stuff, but that’ll come…

alternate design of this mechanic:

- add OOC weapon swap
- add an arcane major trait that both swaps the OOC requirement from weapon swap to attunements and also makes the arcane trait line cooldown reduction apply to weapon swap instead of attunements.

Probably a bit complex and unlikely to be implemented.

delmarqo.5038:

Anyone who played a Bard in EQ, DAoC, SB, and LoTRO can tell you just how much variability there is to “class expectation”. As to this not fitting with fantasy archetype, perhaps that’s why they didn’t call it Wizard or Mage?

I wouldn’t mind fast weapon switch out of combat, but only as an improved UI, not to change the class. In combat I think it would unbalance things. We’re forced to switch out of combat as we assess what kind of combat we’re headed into at the moment. Other classes have different types of compromises (e.g. Mesmer can only switch between two sets though have access to eight, each of which only have five abilities, though of course there’s a good deal more complexity to it…).

Lack of in-combat weapon switching is ours.

And of course, the bugs and balance stuff, but that’ll come…

You can make this claim all you wish, as have others. Non-stance dance builds will never be viable under the system as it is, no amount of balance changes or tweaks will change that. It is a flaw in the design of the system, not a matter of balance. You cannot give one build a breadth of 20 abilities and another a breadth of 5 and expect them to be equal. You will either have to balance each ability against the possible use in conjunction with 15 others, or balance it as if only the five exist. Either way, you end up with a narrow and lopsided class, lacking in versatility and favoring one part of the playerbase over the other.

And most importantly, as I have said to the others, this will not affect your ability to play the elementalist as you currently do! It will only allow others to play differently. If you’re the type that would begrudge people the ability to have differing preferences from yours out of some sense of superiority, well then I feel sorry for you, and we are never going to see eye to eye, so there is no reason to continue this conversation.

And frankly, ‘they should have called it a mage then’ is a childish statement, it doesn’t matter what they call it, it matters what it does. A rose by any name would smell as sweet, they could have called the it the Piddlemancer if they liked, so long as it does what it currently does (no matter how ineffectively it does that) most players will still want to play a geomancer or aeromancer

yertle.5837:

alternate design of this mechanic:

- add OOC weapon swap
- add an arcane major trait that both swaps the OOC requirement from weapon swap to attunements and also makes the arcane trait line cooldown reduction apply to weapon swap instead of attunements.

Probably a bit complex and unlikely to be implemented.

Sorry to be blunt but the absolute LAST thing we need right now is ANOTHER reason to force everybody in to the arcane tree, it’s already one of our biggest problems.

BishopX.6453:

no weapon swap but 5 different weapon loadouts.

It’s actually only 4 weapon loadouts, and I’d be okay with that if the power level of the abilities was on par with that of the classes who have access to weapon swapping. But quite frankly our crowd control abilities either 1) have travel time which can cause out-of-range on some of the slower traveling spells; 2) don’t home onto the target forcing lots of misses (nothing sucks more than missing Gust on somebody’s heal because they moved 2 steps to the left/right); or 3) last about half as long (sometimes less than half) of other class’ CC abilities yet possess usually double the cooldown (or greater in some instances).

If anybody has intelligent commentary as to why this is good game balance please enlighten me. Remember, our auto attacks are already slow as hell compared to melee weapons, and they do close to 60% of the damage of said attacks (with comparable stats). Couple that with the fact every melee/physical damage dealing class can grant themselves quickness, yet only the Mesmer can do it for caster’s (and that is an elite skill on a long CD mind you) and you have some serious food for thought as to why would you roll a caster class over a melee/physical damage dealing class.

Again, any intelligent arguments are welcome to counter my points made above.

Papaj.9035:

It’s actually only 4 weapon loadouts, and I’d be okay with that if the power level of the abilities was on par with that of the classes who have access to weapon swapping. But quite frankly our crowd control abilities either 1) have travel time which can cause out-of-range on some of the slower traveling spells; 2) don’t home onto the target forcing lots of misses (nothing sucks more than missing Gust on somebody’s heal because they moved 2 steps to the left/right); or 3) last about half as long (sometimes less than half) of other class’ CC abilities yet possess usually double the cooldown (or greater in some instances).

Yes and again, this problem is unfixable by way of buffs or nerfs. If they buff our weapon skills up to be equal with those of the other classes, it will:
A. Make us beyond overpowered, we will dominate the game in single target and AoE damage.
B. It will just further enforce the arcane build, the stance dance will be even more powerful, not only failing to fix our problem concerning versatility, but compounding it.

@Conncept
I love the stance-dance, it’s what makes elementalists unique, and I hope we don’t lose it. Of course our abilities won’t do as much damage as the other classes because we get access to more skills per weapon. Of course we need bugs fixed and some other classes could use a bit of a nerf it sounds like. What it sounds like you really want is a trait-line fix. And you’re probably right about us needing one.

But people aren’t children because they don’t want the mechanics of the profession to change. If you don’t like playing a profession the way it was designed to be played (even if it isn’t working right at the moment) then that probably isn’t your playstyle and you should try a profession that is. The Elementalist is supposed to be using all of their elements, not just one or two. If we were supposed to be picking an element to specialize in, it would have been clearly built that way, like it was when GW 1 originally came out and everyone specced fire (or whatever the element of the month was).

Weapon swapping for the Elementalist would effectively double the number of attack skills they could use in combat. As it is, the Elementalist has twice the number of attack skills in combat then the other classes besides Engineer due to its loadouts which work in a similar fashion to the Elementalist’s attunements, except that they take up precious utility skill slots. The Elementalist has plenty going on for it, if you gave them weapon swapping you are effectively giving them a huge buff which they don’t need at all.

Conncept.7638:

Yes and again, this problem is unfixable by way of buffs or nerfs. If they buff our weapon skills up to be equal with those of the other classes, it will:
A. Make us beyond overpowered, we will dominate the game in single target and AoE damage.
B. It will just further enforce the arcane build, the stance dance will be even more powerful, not only failing to fix our problem concerning versatility, but compounding it.

The Arcane build is already set in stone and will always be mandatory (at least 20 points will be solely for attunement recharge rates). The only ways to fix this would be to lower the base recharge back to 10 seconds and change the recharge rate % back to 30% and to increase our base hp pool so we are not forced to spec into Evasive Arcana to splash around in healing fields to stay alive. Or, you could remove the staff blaster trait altogether and just have the increased radius via the talent be the base radius.

I don’t think it would make us beyond overpowered, it would merely bring us up to par with what other classes can do. Sure, a god-mode Ele would destroy people, but I think at that point he’s earned it. As it stands currently, it’s ridiculously easy to dodge our slow casting, non-front loaded AoE spells. Hell, the damage is so pitiful on half of them while Splish Splash spec (about the only way to live on a consistent basis) that a semi-defensively specced player can honestly sit in half of them and ignore their damage because they do not punish the player.

I’m not saying DTooth should be instant cast, fall straight on their head and do the damage it does, or that getting hit by Eruption should make you go OMGWTF DEFENSE MODE (though at the current cast and activation time it SHOULD) but it should certainly make the player think twice about seeing that red circle and flashy spell. I don’t even jokingly sit in a Chaos Storm, but I’ll stand in Lava Fonts and Ice Spikes all day because they don’t hurt at all.

Kristof Bowen.7345:

Weapon swapping for the Elementalist would effectively double the number of attack skills they could use in combat. As it is, the Elementalist has twice the number of attack skills in combat then the other classes besides Engineer due to its loadouts which work in a similar fashion to the Elementalist’s attunements, except that they take up precious utility skill slots. The Elementalist has plenty going on for it, if you gave them weapon swapping you are effectively giving them a huge buff which they don’t need at all.

IMO it is an interesting idea to be able to weapon swap in combat, at the cost of being able to attunement swap – so you can specialize in one element (with 2 weapon sets) but are unable to access the other elements while in combat.

I agree in combat weapon swapping for 2×20 abilities would be impossible to balance for varying skill/commitment levels.

It’d be nice if conjured weapons could be switched too and from…or even replacing your 5 main abilities in an attunement like the engineer kits. That’d mix things up a bit..

I like this. Most of the people talking down about the suggestion haven’t even read the post. Honestly, it would be a pretty clever solution and I would be absolutely stoked to give it a whirl. I’m a build fanatic and would go nuts over the increased possibilities this would open up.
I do not see them implementing this before an expansion or a major patch overhaul however. Here’s to hoping they do.
+1

Emikochan
That sounds pretty cool, they need to do something with conjured weapons, right now equipping one is like cutting our already low damage down by three quarters.

Mondo
Thanks a lot, and I’m not sure they’ll ever implement this at all, but they need a fix, and this is one that will work to some degree or another. They’ve at least seen it since they took the time to move it to the wrong forums (when the suggestions forums opened in the betas they stated that class-specific suggestions were supposed to remain in their respective boards, and yet moved this one from the Elementalist boards to here, got to love moderators that enforce rules they don’t seem to have even read…)

We already have double the skills any other class with a weapon swap has. Even if it was tied to our attunements it shouldn’t at all be an in-combat swap.

What I WOULD like to see, however, is something like they had in GW1, where you could set up several weapon sets (or in this case maybe just one extra, anything would be better than nothing) so that when I’m swtiching between weapons and my inventory is a mess, I don’t have to spend 10 minutes looking through items if I happen to have multiple daggers/scepters/whatevers.

Until then, I’ll be resorting to TRYING to keep my inventory sorted out so that I can semi-easily switch weapons whether it’s in dungeons, WvW, SPvP, or just out doing DEs.

So if I understand this correctly, the TL;DR is:
“Whenever you swap your weapon or an attunement, you get a 15 second cooldown on weapon swapping” right?

I think it’s a great idea but needs one more restriction:
Shorten the weapon lockout on attunement-switch to 5 seconds, but swapping your weapon should both incur the weapon switch cooldown and a 15 second cooldown on the 3 attunements that you aren’t attuned to.

All ready – switch attunement – 5 sec cd on weaponswap – wait – switch weapon – 15 sec cd on all attunements.

That’s major decision-making in combat right there. “Do I use a 2nd set of spells from my preferred element at the cost of not being able to access the others for a while?”

Fievre.4510:

W\I don’t have to spend 10 minutes looking through items if I happen to have multiple daggers/scepters/whatevers.

Yea, this is where I am at too. For now my favorite thing in my inventory is Equipment Box

Conncept.7638:

‘they should have called it a mage then’ is a childish statement, it doesn’t matter what they call it, it matters what it does.

You missed my point. Your argument for this is based on expectations: “what most of the playerbase expected of the elementalist when it was previewed, it does not fulfill fantasy archetypes desired by players, or expectations of diversity of style”. I actually think your statement is accurate. None of the previews showed anything about attunement switching as a part of every combat encounter.

But that’s an error in marketing, not in design. They actively decided NOT to conform to typical Mages or Wizards.

You want weapon switching so that a full set of a single attunement is viable in scenarios where the range can change enough during combat that you feel kittened being stuck with either just close or just long range abilities.

That’s a fine request. But I think you’re running into problems by combining a desire to have weapon switching for range changes (which we’d all like) with the ability to stay in a single attunement (which some of us feel is contrary to the design intent of the class). I get that you are trying to think through balance implications.

But there’s a big difference between enhancing a class with UI tweaks/balances and altering the design of it to match a mental picture of what “should be”.

Fievre.4510:

We already have double the skills any other class with a weapon swap has. Even if it was tied to our attunements it shouldn’t at all be an in-combat swap.

What I WOULD like to see, however, is something like they had in GW1, where you could set up several weapon sets (or in this case maybe just one extra, anything would be better than nothing) so that when I’m swtiching between weapons and my inventory is a mess, I don’t have to spend 10 minutes looking through items if I happen to have multiple daggers/scepters/whatevers.

Until then, I’ll be resorting to TRYING to keep my inventory sorted out so that I can semi-easily switch weapons whether it’s in dungeons, WvW, SPvP, or just out doing DEs.

Having double the skills doesn’t matter when each skill has half the ouput of skills among other classes, and only one way of being optimally built and used. We could have ten times the skills of other classes, if each skill had 1/10th of the output of a standard skill, it is still nothing but complication for complications sake. Complication is never a goal in design, it’s a cost, and the elementalist does not have the output to justify the heavy price.

Jennaissance.2195:

So if I understand this correctly, the TL;DR is:
“Whenever you swap your weapon or an attunement, you get a 15 second cooldown on weapon swapping” right?

I think it’s a great idea but needs one more restriction:
Shorten the weapon lockout on attunement-switch to 5 seconds, but swapping your weapon should both incur the weapon switch cooldown and a 15 second cooldown on the 3 attunements that you aren’t attuned to.

All ready – switch attunement – 5 sec cd on weaponswap – wait – switch weapon – 15 sec cd on all attunements.

That’s major decision-making in combat right there. “Do I use a 2nd set of spells from my preferred element at the cost of not being able to access the others for a while?”

Hmm… that’s a really good idea. But I’m not sure if that’s too restrictive or not, as it will limit you to a very small pool of skills. And as stated above, it is really difficult to balance the class to work with ten skills and twenty, nigh impossible some would say. But personally, I believe it could be done in the trait trees, they would have to buff traits, and of course make traits that really rewarded you for taking this risk.

delmarqo.5038:

You missed my point. Your argument for this is based on expectations: “what most of the playerbase expected of the elementalist when it was previewed, it does not fulfill fantasy archetypes desired by players, or expectations of diversity of style”. I actually think your statement is accurate. None of the previews showed anything about attunement switching as a part of every combat encounter.

But that’s an error in marketing, not in design. They actively decided NOT to conform to typical Mages or Wizards.

You want weapon switching so that a full set of a single attunement is viable in scenarios where the range can change enough during combat that you feel kittened being stuck with either just close or just long range abilities.

That’s a fine request. But I think you’re running into problems by combining a desire to have weapon switching for range changes (which we’d all like) with the ability to stay in a single attunement (which some of us feel is contrary to the design intent of the class). I get that you are trying to think through balance implications.

But there’s a big difference between enhancing a class with UI tweaks/balances and altering the design of it to match a mental picture of what “should be”.

First of all, sorry for misinterpreting your post, my mistake.

But either way, Arenanet should have expected this… well expectation, from the playerbase. Especially since there were builds in GW1 that allowed one to play a geomancer or aeromancer and other such things. And personally, I believe they did. The elementalist trait trees are riddled with traits that encourage you to dedicate yourself to one or two attunements. I believe Arenanet entirely intend to allow for non-swapping builds, but unfortunately failed to make it work in the end, possibly because of time restrictions or a miscalculation in design. And I do believe that they will fix this eventually, my suggestion is one way I think that fix may be made. But more than likely, the Arenanet designers have their own ideas, and they’ll probably go some other direction in the end, I still think it helps to have input from the playerbase.

Okay, still working on this. But I was just banned for 3 days for posts in this very thread which called someones argument immature and saying someone ‘has little faith’, of all things. Now, I have combed over the forums and the rules, and there was no grounds whatsoever for this ban, you can search the forums and find many similar posts, none of them resulting in bans. So apparently I must have said or done something that rubbed some moderator wrong, and now he or she has it out for me. So… watching my step, but still working on this.

I like the concept behind this idea.
However, letting Weapon Swap not put Attunements on cooldown is unbalanced.
Each of the 2 actions must place the other type of action on a longer-than-usual cooldown for it to be fair, otherwise you are giving the profession a significative, unwarranted buff:

1. When you change Attunement, the Attunements go into the usual 15 second cooldown, and the Weapon Swap must go into a 30~60 second cooldown.
   Yes, 2, 3 or even 4 times as long as the usual Attunement cooldown.
   You play the Elementalist, having access to multiple elements by being locked to 1 weapon.
2. When you swap Weapon, the Weapon Swap goes into the 10 second cooldown, but the Attunements must go into a 20~40 second cooldown.
   Yes, 2, 3 or even 4 times as long as the normal Weapon Swap cooldown.
   You play the Geo/Aero/Pyro/Hydromancer, able to swap weapons by being locked to 1 element.

Nurvus.2891:

I like the concept behind this idea.
However, letting Weapon Swap not put Attunements on cooldown is unbalanced.
Each of the 2 actions must place the other type of action on a longer-than-usual cooldown for it to be fair, otherwise you are giving the profession a significative, unwarranted buff:

1. When you change Attunement, the Attunements go into the usual 15 second cooldown, and the Weapon Swap must go into a 30~60 second cooldown.
   Yes, 2, 3 or even 4 times as long as the usual Attunement cooldown.
   You play the Elementalist, having access to multiple elements by being locked to 1 weapon.
2. When you swap Weapon, the Weapon Swap goes into the 10 second cooldown, but the Attunements must go into a 20~40 second cooldown.
   Yes, 2, 3 or even 4 times as long as the normal Weapon Swap cooldown.
   You play the Geo/Aero/Pyro/Hydromancer, able to swap weapons by being locked to 1 element.

You’re the second person to make a solid argument for this point, my stance is beginning to wane… :P

Well, as I’ve always thought that Elem’s need weapon swapping which is tied to attunement swapping, this naturally gets my vote.

This is something which really needs to happen. All other classes get the option to switch from melee to range (with the game DESIGNED around this principle), while elementalists, unless they are using staff, are trapped within short to melee range. I love playing D/D elementalist, but then I kitten myself in many situations. Especially in wvw, there is so much ranged combat that using anything besides staff is suicide. The difference is that unlike every other class, this locks us out from playing melee. If they wanted to design us this way they should have made half the attunements ranged and half melee for EVERY weapon.

I say no to weapon swapping on the elementalists. However I’d propose something different to the same ends.

You elementalists have summoned weapons. If those summoned weapons lasted a goodly length of time and were good, whilst covering the necessary range of ranges that’d surely suffice? Frost bow long range, use in conjuction with dagger builds. Lava axe short range, use with staff builds. You get the idea. If these conjured weapons were good enough that’s the elementalist fixed really. And that way you don’t have the scenario where you guys get weapon swapping (40 skills).

Anyone else agree here?

Katsumoto.9452:

I say no to weapon swapping on the elementalists. However I’d propose something different to the same ends.

You elementalists have summoned weapons. If those summoned weapons lasted a goodly length of time and were good, whilst covering the necessary range of ranges that’d surely suffice? Frost bow long range, use in conjuction with dagger builds. Lava axe short range, use with staff builds. You get the idea. If these conjured weapons were good enough that’s the elementalist fixed really. And that way you don’t have the scenario where you guys get weapon swapping (40 skills).

Anyone else agree here?

I understand what you’re getting at (the ability to swap weapons which are “attunement locked”, without actually swapping them in the normal sense), but the “summoned” weapons use completely different abilities and therefore aren’t necessarily very complimentary with the abilities on the normal weapons.

Of course, another important point is that whilst the conjuring ability gives elem’s a weapon swap of sorts, the downside is that the ability takes up one of the support slots. Something that doesn’t occur with other classes.

Katsumoto.9452:

I say no to weapon swapping on the elementalists. However I’d propose something different to the same ends.

You elementalists have summoned weapons. If those summoned weapons lasted a goodly length of time and were good, whilst covering the necessary range of ranges that’d surely suffice? Frost bow long range, use in conjuction with dagger builds. Lava axe short range, use with staff builds. You get the idea. If these conjured weapons were good enough that’s the elementalist fixed really. And that way you don’t have the scenario where you guys get weapon swapping (40 skills).

Anyone else agree here?

I don’t know about anyone else but personally I wouldn’t like this. This would essentially put us in the same boat Engineers are in right now. Engineers have to use one slot for a weapon kit, they have no choice if they actually want to be useful, and this severely limits how you can build an engineer. But, either way, conjured weapons do need some serious overhaul, not one of them is even as good as a single one of our attunement, let alone all four.

Additionally, just so you know, with this change you won’t have access to forty skills, as the shared cooldown requires that you choose between weapon swapping and attunement swapping. So during a long-term fight, like in WvW, you will have the option to switch styles between CDs, but never actually have 40 skills. While in sPvP, the quicker combat will warrant that you make a decision and stick with it.

I can see your point and it is noted. Thing is though is this change really fair if you leave the Engineers standing where they are now. They have only 3 weapon combinations to choose from, rifles, pistols and pistol/shield. Of those none of them really cover short range. Nor even ‘long’ range as the rifle is the longest range and that’s only 1,000 range as a pose to 1,200 boasted by ever other class aside thief I think.

Katsumoto.9452:

I can see your point and it is noted. Thing is though is this change really fair if you leave the Engineers standing where they are now. They have only 3 weapon combinations to choose from, rifles, pistols and pistol/shield. Of those none of them really cover short range. Nor even ‘long’ range as the rifle is the longest range and that’s only 1,000 range as a pose to 1,200 boasted by ever other class aside thief I think.

You’re entirely right, it wouldn’t be fair to engineers, but I’ve stated that the engineer needs reworks just as often as I have stated so for the elementalist. But I came up with this idea for the Elementalist and so I posted it. And while I have considered its potential application to the engineer profession I personally think it wouldn’t work, kit-swapping has almost no CD and most engineers agree that they would like it to stay that way.

But, to tell the truth, I think that engineers would be perfectly fine if given a second weapon set without any stipulations whatsoever. The kits are not part of their class mechanic like attunements are for the elementalist, and should not have the very mechanics of the game stacked against them to balance. They are optional, (or should be) like all slotted skills, and as such should be balanced with their use in conjunction with the other skills available, not as if they are an ever present mechanic like attunements are.

Engineers could probably use a fix too to be honest. However, two wrongs don’t make a right, and leaving elementalists in their current state is just not right either. As for the conjured weapon suggestion, I don’t think that would work for a variety of reasons:

1. The entire playstyle of elementalist should not rely on wasting a skill slot
2. If you want to stay in ranged most of the time (as is the case in wvw) and want to also play d/d, you’ll have to be in frost bow mode most of the time. This defeats the having the whole attunement mechanic, and the bow would have to last an ungodly amount of time.
3. Makes weapons less important? Oh you god a legendary? Have fun never seeing it while in frost bow mode!

Plus conjured weapons are absolutely atrocious right now. I agree they could use a buff, but they still should be primarily utility.

I think an out of combat weapon swap option is something that elementalists really need.

In pvp, I find myself switching weapons all the time based on the situation. Currently, manually switching weapons is slow and painful. Especially when switching from a single staff to two weapons. For a double dagger, I have to hit Equip on one dagger, and then Equip In Off Hand on the other dagger. Not fun when one has to do this over and over in pvp.

I think the game should just do the weapon switch like the other classes, and just disable it during combat. This maintains consistency with the other classes, and should take the least amount of programming to add.

Well I don’t think that out of combat weapon swapping will fix all our problems RedOak, but if you do that’s fine with me, maybe you’re right. Until ANet does something, we’ll never know.

Updated the OP to reflect the changes suggested by Jennaisance and Nurvus. Have a look.

I think the plan proposed in the OP is great. It keeps it balanced by having long periods of cooldown to prevent Elementalists from having a “real” weapon swap (AKA a swap used frequently for access to more skills, because attunement does that already) but still allows you to switch weapons when the situation arises where you really need to switch weapons.

Heck, I’d even take it a step further personally. I’d gladly take a 40 second weapon switch cooldown and a forced 20 second cooldown for every non-active attunement on weapon switch. Make it entirely a “just in case” tool.

I just want something so that if I’m playing Dagger / Dagger (which I usually am) and end up against a boss that totally screws melee, I at least have some way to swap to a Staff other than running 50 feet away and hoping combat decides to end in a reasonable amount of time.

Has this thread been deleted? I was hoping for more discussion on this…

Jabberwock.9014:

Has this thread been deleted? I was hoping for more discussion on this…

Nope, but days ago the thread was giving an error; I contacted support, they said they were working on it. I’m in now but I had to follow through a link on my profile, actually clicking on the thread wasn’t working.

EDIT: Yep, I’m still getting the error. After every post the whole thread disappears and locks me out of posting. I have to sort through my post history and find the one single link that allows me to access the thread.

Please don’t hate me, and I’m not sure if I’m allowed to quote myself, but here’s my original, and still ongoing stance on this matter:

Nurvus.2891:

I like the concept behind this idea.
However, letting Weapon Swap not put Attunements on cooldown is unbalanced.
Each of the 2 actions must place the other type of action on a longer-than-usual cooldown for it to be fair, otherwise you are giving the profession a significative, unwarranted buff:

1. When you change Attunement, the Attunements go into the usual 15 second cooldown, and the Weapon Swap must go into a 30~60 second cooldown.
   Yes, 2, 3 or even 4 times as long as the usual Attunement cooldown.
   You play the Elementalist, having access to multiple elements by being locked to 1 weapon.
2. When you swap Weapon, the Weapon Swap goes into the 10 second cooldown, but the Attunements must go into a 20~40 second cooldown.
   Yes, 2, 3 or even 4 times as long as the normal Weapon Swap cooldown.
   You play the Geo/Aero/Pyro/Hydromancer, able to swap weapons by being locked to 1 element.

I think this would make Weapon Swapping for Elementalists fun, balanced and provide alot of flavour.

It would give players the option to play the “Aero/Geo/Pyro/Hydromancer” instead of Elementalist if they wish to, by giving up the ability to swap Attunements for a long while every time they swap weapons.