Guild Wars 2

There doesn’t seem to ever be a notable increase in character strength. What WoW and games like it allow for it the opportunity to blow off some steam by
wrecking a few areas. The same can’t be said for GW2. While I understand the idea of the “endgame” being the entire game, the problem is in the execution.

Levels are arbitrary. People have come to expect that with levels comes more power or more options with more time investment. GW2 really doesn’t live up to that standard which would be fine if it didn’t attempt to base the PVE experience around that system.

I was actually pretty excited when I heard that your character would be level adjusted to the content of the area in order to prevent it from being trivialized until I experienced the content that was already made trivial due to the design choices (kill/fetch/escort).

In most MMORPGS the content is a copy/paste job across multiple zones and going for completion isn’t usually encouraged as a form of “endgame”. Most people wouldn’t even bother with attempting this simply due to the repetitive nature quests (hearts, events, missions, whatever). The one thing that keeps backtracking fresh is being able to plow your enemies down.

Sure, in some instances it can be detrimental to new players to have a maxed player come crashing through your zone but it also has it’s benefits.

Let’s take Rift and it’s zone events as an example. Many players, myself included would purposefully backtrack to completed zones in order to aid the the nearly empty low/mid zones during invasions. Our rewards ranged from achievement hunting to being able to stroke our ego helping out new players (thanks for helping, it’s been blocking my quest or “I just got so much loot!”) to being able to transfer rift rewards to alts (this ties in with an account-wide karma bank). Even when I was doing nothing “endgame” related and while I had seen the events many times before, I was always ready to jump in because I felt like my time invested had meaning to myself and others. I had played longer and could offer a boost to those just getting into the game so they could catch up quicker.

Keeping new players from being constantly beaten down in empty zones will do more for longevity than not letting the 1-15 zones be trivialized by gear and levels. At least in the standard system of MMORPGS there’s the opportunity to go back and crush that mob, boss, event that caused so much frustration early on. I realize that catharsis isn’t supported as a treatment for anger and frustration when dealing with reality but in gaming, it sure is fun and offers a much more satisfying experience when compared to the other option; you’re going to get your butt kicked by that champ regardless of how much time you spend playing unless there are enough people to buffer damage. Already the amount of players seems to be dwindling in a majority of low/mid zones and only a few select zones remain populated.

Much like in GW2, Rift’s events that were failed offered less reward. The more successful the event, the better the reward. And by allowing geared players to participate, exceed the event stat standards and gain rewards for content they’ve already participated in you can foster a continuous opportunity for new players to experience the content in an almost intended manner instead of just avoiding it because no one is around.

Those geared players make up for a lack of others in those zones by bringing firepower equivalent to a small army of new players. They have to because no game continues to grow like it did within the first few weeks/months and new players will only continue to trickle in.

The problem:

Do we allow new players to become disillusioned with the content that was intended for large groups in order to preserve the idea of level adjustment or do we allow geared players to contribute more in lower level zones to foster completion of maps, content, events and a generally active community?

At least in the latter you have a high chance of at least one goofball (me!) running around plowing through a zone that is polluted with failed events or unchallenged champions.

Did you just delete the thread and recreate it? I wrote a long reply but now it’s gone, just like all other replies. Short version: I feel ANet held their promise and made GW2 a good game for busy adults, I feel a lot stronger, but not almighty, in the starting areas I’m playing now, even at level 35 with crappy equipment and senseless trait points, I feel it rewarding enough to help out with events and people’s quests, and I hope many of the former WoW players will just quit playing GW2 in the long term.
The only things I really criticise in PvE right now are respawn timers and how event scaling currently works (or doesn’t work, since mob health doesn’t increase), which makes them a stressfull AoE spam experience depending on which class you play.

If there was no level scaling then every event in low level areas would be completely annihilated by a group of level 80s. Low level areas are already incredibly easy at high levels, with the obvious exception of dungeons.

I did not. I wasn’t the OP of the last thread and was a bit confused when it went missing. Luckily I always copy to clipboard when I’m writing a long reply.

While it may be a good game for busy adults, busy adults don’t keep a game alive. It’s the players who have more time to spend in the game that allows for the “busy adults” to have someone to play with when they have time.

Wishing former WoW players would quit would only serve to destroy what population is left and it’s that mentality that stifles game growth. And while you may find it to be rewarding right now to help with events and quests, how much of that will translate over after you complete a zone? As you’ve said, it’s a game for busy adults and I don’t know too many busy adults who would spend their limited time doing content they already completed on their main and possible alts.

They simply don’t play that much. I guess that’s why GW2 is using a pay once + micropayment system and not a monthly fee, people don’t have to be forced to grind that way. If the grinders go away and there are less players, then just reduce the number of servers or go to one that has a higher population. You never see high level players in low level areas in, for example, WoW just because they can “crush” enemies, they’re only in the capitals and then back grinding in high-level areas. Introducing that system wouldn’t help a bit. And just changing the event reward scaling would have the side effect that the people farming Orr events would then simply farm even easier events in low-level zones, which would make it a lot less of an experience for actual low-level players. I don’t feel zones are empty (I’m currently playing all starting zones on a relatively low population server), and I’ve yet to see an event that’s not being completed sooner or later. There are some exceptions, like the Krait Witches in the human or sylvari start areas which are just anoying, but then again – there’s no special reward for it, and nothing bad happens if it isn’t completed within five minutes.

Maskeus.2396:

If there was no level scaling then every event in low level areas would be completely annihilated by a group of level 80s. Low level areas are already incredibly easy at high levels, with the obvious exception of dungeons.

No, they wouldn’t considering the lack of population in zones currently. There’s only so many people who want to continue doing the same events repeatedly regardless of level scaling or not.

Level scaling removes the ego incentive from the players and so farther down the road you end up with content being avoided by both new and veteran players; new because their character isn’t built for the content and there is a lack of new players/alts to group with and veterans because their time investment is stripped when attempting to participate and aid in content they’ve already completed multiple times that, in all fairness, is a copy/paste job of another event present in other zones.

Iruwen.3164:

If the grinders go away and there are less players, then just reduce the number of servers or go to one that has a higher population. You never see high level players in low level areas in, for example, WoW just because they can “crush” enemies, they’re only in the capitals and then back grinding in high-level areas. Introducing that system wouldn’t help a bit. And just changing the event reward scaling would have the side effect that the people farming Orr events would then simply farm even easier events in low-level zones, which would make it a lot less of an experience for actual low-level players. I don’t feel zones are empty (I’m currently playing all starting zones on a relatively low population server), and I’ve yet to see an event that’s not being completed sooner or later. There are some exceptions, like the Krait Witches in the human or sylvari start areas which are just anoying, but then again – there’s no special reward for it, and nothing bad happens if it isn’t completed within five minutes.

If the grinders go away then you don’t have an MMORPG. MMORPGS are inherently grindy whether it’s grinding for badges, grinding for gear upgrades, grinding for gold or just grinding for pvp rank.

Your statement about WoW and games like it is false. Not only do people backtrack because they are able to do it easily but people can also make some in-game currency running alts and new players through content. More options for the players is never a bad thing.

Changing the event loot scaling is an easy solution to people farming high level gear from low level zones. Allow higher level players to be treated to a bit more karma and currency but keep the item rewards level appropriate for the zone and don’t have the reward be equivalent to say, Orr where the events are more difficult.

I have to ask, if it’s all supposed to be “endgame” why would you have a problem with some people choosing to grind easier events? It’s their time and completing an event doesn’t harm other players.

fauXnetiX.6459:

If the grinders go away then you don’t have an MMORPG. MMORPGS are inherently grindy whether it’s grinding for badges, grinding for gear upgrades, grinding for gold or just grinding for pvp rank.

If the grinders stay, you have an MMO, but not an MMORPG. If you do RP, grinding isn’t required at all.

Your statement about WoW and games like it is false. Not only do people backtrack because they are able to do it easily but people can also make some in-game currency running alts and new players through content. More options for the players is never a bad thing.

That mainly happens with instances, not open world PvE. Also, you have the same options in GW2 (as I said you’re still mighty, just not almighty) and rewards are certainly way better than what you get from low level mobs in WoW.

Allow higher level players to be treated to a bit more karma and currency but keep the item rewards level appropriate for the zone and don’t have the reward be equivalent to say, Orr where the events are more difficult.

Totally fine for me. Reward event completion, not mob grinding. Imo, event mobs shouldn’t drop anything at all, that would solve several issues, especially with people intentionally not completing events so the respawn can be farmed.

I have to ask, if it’s all supposed to be “endgame” why would you have a problem with some people choosing to grind easier events? It’s their time and completing an event doesn’t harm other players.

Yes it does. Many events already are terribly easy as of now since with just a few players, it’s just a question of AoE efficiency. Most of the time, the mobs hardly get past their spawn point. As soon as that problem is fixed, by increasing mob health and adding in veterans with many players, we’re talking. As of now, the event system is already “broken” to a degree.

What exactly do you mean by “If you do RP”? That doesn’t seem to make any sense. If you RP that you are a hero who fights dungeon bosses for their badges you’re still grinding. If you RP that you are a master of craft you still are grinding for mats or coin to buy mats. If you RP that you are a pvp warlord you’re still grinding points. If you RP that you’re not grinding and that you are actually doing quests you’re still grinding.

I clearly provided you with open world occurrences in other games and analogized them with the events in GW2. In fact, the only reference I made to WoW was “What WoW and games like it allow for…”. The rest was comparing the dynamic events in Rift to GW2.

What events are you referencing? There doesn’t seem to be “just a few players” in many of the zones I’ve been in repeatedly. More like “never enough”.

Increasing mob health isn’t a solution and the events I’ve been referring to have been champion events which already have an ample supply of heath and one shot mechanics.

I completely agree with you, fauXnetiX.

In my opinion, Downleveling system is quite poorly implemented.
Leveling up actually weakens you until you update your gear, wich is unacceptable.

I make a suggestion that somewhat compliments this discussion in this thread:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Concept-of-Level-is-pointless-in-GW2/first#post493723

Essentially, the game could have no concept of level, and gear could grow in smaller jumps, but a fully traited, skilled and exotic geared character should feel at least 5x as strong as a player that just started playing.

The feeling would be not like in WoW where a 30 level difference means you one-shot anyone.
It would be closer to the diference between the last tier of WotLK and the last tier of Cataclysm.

Actually, Nurvus, I ran across that thread last night and decided to voice my concerns as well after reading it instead of just up and quitting. As I said above, the concept of level adjustment is decent but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired especially when gear is factored into it.

There’s no reason to have stats on gear. All of the stats could easily be spent under the hero panel as attribute points with some being hardwired into the character based on the class (x vit increase for necro vs guardian) and the gear could be for purely cosmetic purposes. It’s baffling why they would use a system that seems to claim gear isn’t important when it obviously is except when passing through a zone that then makes the gear almost irrelevant.