Guild Wars 2

Hi ANet,

This suggestion will solve all your problems with this profession. Get rid of innitiative and make Thiefs skills CD based same as it is with every other profession.

No other profession can use one skill twice in a row (except nr1 auto attack skill). As long as Thieves can spam #2-#5 skills multiple times in a row you will always have balance issues with this profession. And it also makes the profession very shallow because by spamming one skill you can deliver big results where with other professions you need to combine other skills to get the same result.

I understand that you wanted to make something different and unique. And if every profession had some sort of energy, it would be something else. But in the current state, having one profession without CDs is not a good idea and you will only pay for that in a long run.

Regards,
Looria

Really they just need to make Heartseeker take 5 points instead of 3. Right now the damage it does is huge compared to the cost.

This isnt just about heartseeker mate. I mean yes everybody is complaining about this skill and I already made a thread with suggestions how to change this skill to make it overall better.

You can already see threads being made about Pistol Whip and more will come. Really removing innitiative and making the skills Cooldown based is the only way to put this class on the same level as every other profession in the game.

That would only serve to erode away much of what makes the thief class so enjoyable – the fact that combat is so so fluid and fast paced. We’re not even overpowered, people just need to learn how to counter predictable and gimmicky builds. Why punish the majority for the actions of a minority?

Thieves are what you would describe as a glass cannon. Taking away the cannon part just leaves shattered glass. I think you just got pubstomped by a good thief and think they should be slow like the rest

I think you misunderstand what the majority and minority is in this case.

Majority are ppl playing this class because with two skills you can kill enemy players. Minority are those who are using other skills to do that because as you said its more enjoyable.

It will still be as enjoyable as it is now, because you will still have all skills, but you just wont be able to spam Heartseek 5x in a row or Pistol Whip or any other skill for that matter. You will need to make combos from all skills in your arsenal (as any other profession) to beat your enemy. Not just two.

NinjaEd.3946:

Thieves are what you would describe as a glass cannon. Taking away the cannon part just leaves shattered glass. I think you just got pubstomped by a good thief and think they should be slow like the rest

I am giving my suggestion to ArenaNet.

Im not going to argue with you here, especially when you dont bring any constructive and valid feedback into the discussion.

And FYI no, I eat thieves for snack with my Guardian and Ele.

…any thief who blows all their initiative on a particular ability is going to leave themselves vulnerable as a result. The entire class specialises in hit and run assaults, we’re very quick on our feet and this is countered by how ‘squishy’ we are. We’ve very low base health and an incredibly strong demand for environmental awareness compared to other classes. Changing core mechanics isn’t going to end well and will result in months, if not years of ‘balancing’ as is the case in certain other MMO’s.

Heh, I kind of agree depending on how creatively they do it…

What if all thief’s abilities 2-5 had a 1-2 second cooldown AND still used initiative (but with a slightly reduced cost).

Even a one second delay would ruin a lot of viable thief builds. In Orr, it’s already ridiculously awkward to deal with groups of enemies. I tend to run in, stack up bleed and poison conditions and then dodge until I regain initiative.

I’d really suggest that more people invest in getting a thief to level 80 and then offer feedback.

Am I the only person here who thinks heartseeker and pistol whip are the only two skills the thief has which are do 90% of its overall damage take that away and us players who use thief might as well just delete the character and start an ele. Also good thief’s do not just spam those two moves we do use all our moves we use every bloody single one of them because with out them we would just shatter into glass regardless make you vulnerable first and do a lot more preparation than you really think we do because after we do fire off our two main skills we are sitting ducks with auto attack for the next 5 – 8s and we cannot spam those moves again unless we wait for the initiative to build up again.

We are the weakest melee class in the game due to our lack of taking hits, Instead of crying about how we 1 combo you, you just need to learn to counter us which is actually a lot easier than it appears since our biggest weakness is missing with our first spam strike avoid that and you have a fighting chance.

Every class has a weakness or a number of weaknesses and a certain move that is vital to evade and dodge if you all keep acting like this then this game will turn into a NERF every class until they are all slow and tedious and then you will all whine because they nerfed classes you play the most to better balance out with the other classes that got a nerf.

Again each class is very good at doing certain things for instance Elemental own in World vs World while thief pretty much dominate in 1v1. I don’t think any class needs a nerf I think we could all do with a buff in the right places.

Thief is very easy to just spam those two moves for PvE but as soon as you get into anything PvP 1 2 knockout combo goes out the window and you really need to start planning your attacks and using your utility’s wisely to prep for the next combo run.

I agree and disagree.
Thieves need to be tweaked, but so do other professions.

Having EITHER Energy/Initiative or Recharge times is not ideal.
Professions need to have BOTH.

Energy/Initiative is something that, to me, set Guild Wars 1 apart from other MMOs where you just spam a rotation of skills in priority of best to worst.
But Energy alone is nothing.

When you cross Energy with Recharge Times, you create the need to make interesting decisions.
Example:
You have 2 skills. Skill A is ready, but Skill B is recharging in 1 second, and while either Skill is good on its own, they shine when Skill B is used within 3 seconds of Skill A.
It so happens that you will only have enough Energy to chain them together for maximum effect in 6 seconds.
So the question is:
Do you you use one of them in 2 seconds, or do you use Skill A in 4 seconds (giving you a 1 second window to use Skill?

1 – Give Initiative to everyone, but make Thieves both recover it faster and depend it more.
2 – Give Thief skills short but meaningful recharge times

Thief skills would be balanced around the Initiative, and Recharge times would be short enough to feel like a Thief, and long enough to prevent you from simply spamming the “best” skill.

Other professions’ skills would be balanced around the Recharge time, and the Initiative would simply limit how fast they can unleash their arsenal in a short span.

Garenthal.1480:

…any thief who blows all their initiative on a particular ability is going to leave themselves vulnerable as a result. The entire class specialises in hit and run assaults, we’re very quick on our feet and this is countered by how ‘squishy’ we are. We’ve very low base health and an incredibly strong demand for environmental awareness compared to other classes. Changing core mechanics isn’t going to end well and will result in months, if not years of ‘balancing’ as is the case in certain other MMO’s.

Any thief would builds like a squishy cannon can kill most noobs (or cooldown’d pros) by blowing all their initiative in under a few seconds. If they don’t THEN they could just run away and try it again. It sounds as if you’re a little bias with your responses.

Thieves have a few issues. It doesn’t matter how you ‘think’ they should be played, if people can spam an ability and kill someone quickly then they’ll do it over and over again.

Suggesting changes is the best way to balance. Even bad suggestions could help find the core issue and improve the archtype.

Mojo.2691:

Any thief would builds like a squishy cannon can kill most noobs (or cooldown’d pros) by blowing all their initiative in under a few seconds. If they don’t THEN they could just run away and try it again. It sounds as if you’re a little bias with your responses.

Thieves have a few issues. It doesn’t matter how you ‘think’ they should be played, if people can spam an ability and kill someone quickly then they’ll do it over and over again.

Suggesting changes is the best way to balance. Even bad suggestions could help find the core issue and improve the archtype.

Thank You.
First person who actually understands that I didnt make this thread to cry about Thieves or to make the underpowered or whatever. But to point ANet how to make the profession deeper and eventually enjoyable to play for majority of players. Im sure there are many more solutions how to fix Thieves. But at the moment innitiative is the only single biggest difference between other professions and Thieves.

And is also the core reason why we have gazillions of whiney posts about heartseek spam or whip spam.

Have you heard any other profession from the game connected with word “SPAM”? No, because you just cant do that with CD based skills. And thats what makes the combat deep. If I use skill it goes on CD. Its done..i cant use it again and I may pay for that. With Thieves they use skill at the wrong time but its all fine, they still have enough innitiative to use it again…and again..and again.

Mojo.2691:

Garenthal.1480:

…any thief who blows all their initiative on a particular ability is going to leave themselves vulnerable as a result. The entire class specialises in hit and run assaults, we’re very quick on our feet and this is countered by how ‘squishy’ we are. We’ve very low base health and an incredibly strong demand for environmental awareness compared to other classes. Changing core mechanics isn’t going to end well and will result in months, if not years of ‘balancing’ as is the case in certain other MMO’s.

Any thief would builds like a squishy cannon can kill most noobs (or cooldown’d pros) by blowing all their initiative in under a few seconds. If they don’t THEN they could just run away and try it again. It sounds as if you’re a little bias with your responses.

Thieves have a few issues. It doesn’t matter how you ‘think’ they should be played, if people can spam an ability and kill someone quickly then they’ll do it over and over again.

Suggesting changes is the best way to balance. Even bad suggestions could help find the core issue and improve the archtype.

Well in that case they better make the rest of the attacks more viable because we only spam those two skills as they are really the only ones worth using for opening attacks. They don’t need a nerf they just need to make the other dagger skills more useful.

I don’t even see the issue as I said in my previous post above, We already heavily rely on our initiative and if we blow it all and actually GET AWAY then that is your fault for not striking when the opportunity arises to do so.

You should also be able to heal easily enough in 1v1 before we come back, on top of all of this in group situations we really only target the weakest player or most valuable player in the vicinity you could easily work better as a team and 3v1 the thief down after his initial strike especially if you are a guardian you can just lay down your bloody invisible wall aoe to bind us to a small space which prevents us from running far and then just hammer into us while have you the chance.

Thief is by far not the only profession that suffers from people using only 1 or 3 of its moves all the time mesmer comes to mind and so does warrior.

All classes should have a different feel to them, something that makes them stand out. The thief’s initiative is what this class has, take that away and what are you left with? I am really not sure. A rather dull squishy warrior I suppose, that doesn’t sound like much fun to play.

I play a thief for the fast pace, the diving in and out of action and movement. I do not play it because it can kill another player in a few hits because I am never going to use that skill. I don’t PVP, as such I cannot comment much on balance or glass cannon builds. All I can say is there is more than one area of this game and that should be taken into consideration with all changes to classes.

Even then no class should have their main mechanic removed be based on the opinions of those who play against them. Only if the players of that class are not enjoying it, and I am sure that is not the case here.

LED Head.2439:

Well in that case they better make the rest of the attacks more viable because we only spam those two skills as they are really the only ones worth using for opening attacks. They don’t need a nerf they just need to make the other dagger skills more useful.

Can you please elaborate?
I mean this is good, sure make other skills more useful. But what specific skills and what changes do You see need to be made to make the more useful.

LED Head.2439:

Thief is by far not the only profession that suffers from people using only 1 or 3 of its moves all the time mesmer comes to mind and so does warrior.

There is a huge difference between USING only 1 or 3 skills or SPAMMING 1 or 3 skills. If as warrior you use hundred blades and you are not close to the target, its wasted and you cant use it again. Same as if the target dodges this skill. You cant spam it but have to wait for the CD to come again. With skills you can spam in a row thats not the case.

Erin.7521:

All classes should have a different feel to them, something that makes them stand out. The thief’s initiative is what this class has, take that away and what are you left with? I am really not sure. A rather dull squishy warrior I suppose, that doesn’t sound like much fun to play.

I play a thief for the fast pace, the diving in and out of action and movement. I do not play it because it can kill another player in a few hits because I am never going to use that skill. I don’t PVP, as such I cannot comment much on balance or glass cannon builds. All I can say is there is more than one area of this game and that should be taken into consideration with all changes to classes.

Even then no class should have their main mechanic removed be based on the opinions of those who play against them. Only if the players of that class are not enjoying it, and I am sure that is not the case here.

I agree, I don’t exactly sound like I use any other moves but I always make use of every skill I have slotted in at some point during the fight even if I don’t have too I like to throw them in there to keep things fresh and try out other combinations of moves to and when I find something/Style that works well for me I use it more often than others but I don’t rely on it because in this game situations change and different mobs I find some skills work better than others for dealing with them and staying alive. If we are to complain at all I think the traps could use some work because in PvE there are not a lot of viable reasons to slot a trap over a instant utility skill or a passive bonus.

Of course we could use the traps but that is just the way I feel about some of the traps others may use traps more because of different builds where mine is based more around venom uptime.

Erin.7521:

All classes should have a different feel to them, something that makes them stand out. The thief’s initiative is what this class has, take that away and what are you left with? I am really not sure. A rather dull squishy warrior I suppose, that doesn’t sound like much fun to play.

I play a thief for the fast pace, the diving in and out of action and movement. I do not play it because it can kill another player in a few hits because I am never going to use that skill. I don’t PVP, as such I cannot comment much on balance or glass cannon builds. All I can say is there is more than one area of this game and that should be taken into consideration with all changes to classes.

Even then no class should have their main mechanic removed be based on the opinions of those who play against them. Only if the players of that class are not enjoying it, and I am sure that is not the case here.

You will still be able to do that. What are you left with? Stealth, poisions. Thats what is thief about. You will still be able to get in, do some quick damage, get out. You just will have to use multiple skills to achieve that, not just two because your skills will be on CD.

I agree its nice to have every profession stand out. The problem is that with this mechanic Thief is the only profession standing out. Every other profession is the same in this regard and thats why you dont hear ppl complaining about other professions spamming only one skill to kill the enemy. Because simply you cant do that.

LED Head.2439:

Well in that case they better make the rest of the attacks more viable because we only spam those two skills as they are really the only ones worth using for opening attacks. They don’t need a nerf they just need to make the other dagger skills more useful.

Spam what two skills? I do think some of their other abilities could be tweaked.

Cloak and Dagger, Assins Sig w/Backstab with the right traits (and a few stacks of bloodlust) would eat most players alive. Then you could get at least 2-3 heartseekers in and if you run out of ini then just roll for it and then get in a few more heartseekers. If they didn’t die you could use infiltrator’s arrow to help get away (not including the +25% movement speed most are running with now).

LED Head.2439:

I don’t even see the issue as I said in my previous post above, We already heavily rely on our initiative and if we blow it all and actually GET AWAY then that is your fault for not striking when the opportunity arises to do so.

I don’t think you fully understand the other professions. Most doesn’t have a burst like a thief and unless the thief builds stupidly squishy, it’s not an HUGE opportunity. Especially when you’re trying to figure out where you’re health bar went.

LED Head.2439:

You should also be able to heal easily enough in 1v1 before we come back, on top of all of this in group situations we really only target the weakest player or most valuable player in the vicinity you could easily work better as a team and 3v1 the thief down after his initial strike especially if you are a guardian you can just lay down your bloody invisible wall aoe to bind us to a small space which prevents us from running far and then just hammer into us while you the chance.

Again, you’re talking about a playstyle. Most intelligent players are going for the weakest target. Guardians are a tad overpowered imo but you’re talking about a particular situation instead of a widely spammed ability.

I love the thief and to be honest, I think they are underpowered. They have a few OP gimmick builds but they need more diversity. I think that is what the OP is trying to get to with his post.

Looria I suppose I am just worried that stealth and poisons is not enough to make it stand out, nor enough to keep the class fun.

While I can understand balance may need to be adjusted for PvP I just do not want to give up the main part of my class that I love. While I am sure you do not hear other people complaining that another class can spam one skill I would imagine there are still complaints about other aspects of their design. I f we remove all aspects others dislike rather than working with them we end up with homogenisation and boredom.

Looria.8019:

LED Head.2439:

Well in that case they better make the rest of the attacks more viable because we only spam those two skills as they are really the only ones worth using for opening attacks. They don’t need a nerf they just need to make the other dagger skills more useful.

Can you please elaborate?
I mean this is good, sure make other skills more useful. But what specific skills and what changes do You see need to be made to make the more useful.

LED Head.2439:

Thief is by far not the only profession that suffers from people using only 1 or 3 of its moves all the time mesmer comes to mind and so does warrior.

There is a huge difference between USING only 1 or 3 skills or SPAMMING 1 or 3 skills. If as warrior you use hundred blades and you are not close to the target, its wasted and you cant use it again. Same as if the target dodges this skill. You cant spam it but have to wait for the CD to come again. With skills you can spam in a row thats not the case.

I had a big ol thing written out but I pressed Post reply instead of the Edit button as I edited a previous post to include this information.

I cannot be stuffed typing the half a page long in detail thing again but In short every weapon loadout has as a trade off be it the “pistol whip” that costs 5 and if u miss u just hit the air compared to something like “headshot” which dazes for only 1/4s and costs 4 the viable opening attacks make themselves pretty obvious because if you use anything other than those two opening attacks with Double dagger or Sword and pistol combo your not really putting out any dps.

I might make a short video explaining int detail as it would be a lot easier than to type it all up all over again.

“Edit”

All of my other posts aside I found this video and it basically shows you what thief has going for it over over professions.

Are you even serious with the video?

He doesnt do almost anything else but heartseek spam until he is out of innitiative and then he heals, go to stealth and do it all over again.

Thats exactly what I was talking about. No weapon switching. He is basically killing ppl with blade storm and heartseek spam.

If this is the example of good thief’s gameplay according to you, then this thread is exactly suggesting how to change this shallow and easy gameplay, because well this is just ridiculous.

theif = gw1 assasin. glass cannon. maybe its not the class that needs tweaking but more skills to counter a 1-2 hit criitical combo start. a la mesmers diversion in gw 1 which could easily put some assasin builds entierly on hold if an only opener as distracted.

i liked assasins in gw 1 even though i didnt play them often and yeah they were oped one on one. just like a mesmer vs a caster. a good assasin teled knocked you down and kept you down untill you were dead. the reason everyone didnt play them is because ever class had a counter to them. partially due to dual class systems and inate skills to improve longevity.

the paragon was awful and totally irrelevant after pvp saw 2 of them making parties invincible . then the nerf came and one of the more interesting classes became forever obsolete. slowing marks and blinding armors would be better ideas added to other classes rather than nerfing theifs. theifs are quick killers. and paragons WERE party protectors. dont make the theif or any other class go the way of the paragon.

I’m guessing this thread is only about PvP … because I play PvE exclusively and I don’t use either of those attacks – and I’m still doing pretty good. But, with that said, a lot of the thieves movement based attacks are made with the idea of Initiative in mind … you take that out and you’ll need to rethink just about every weapon skill they have.

What if the damage of heartseeker and pistol whip was dependent on the amount of initiative? It would do full damage with full initiative and less each time you use it.

Don’t get me wrong, I hate it when I see heartseeker spammers, but if you can survive that, they’re essentially kitten for damage since they have to wait….depending on their build, anyway.

Jack of Tears.9458:

I’m guessing this thread is only about PvP … because I play PvE exclusively and I don’t use either of those attacks – and I’m still doing pretty good. But, with that said, a lot of the thieves movement based attacks are made with the idea of Initiative in mind … you take that out and you’ll need to rethink just about every weapon skill they have.

Yes, the issue is mainly in PvP.

And thats the whole idea. It only makes sense that taking out innitiative would meak redesign all skills to the CD based form.

When it comes to double dagger builds, Thieves spam 2 skills because the other 2 (auto-attack doesn’t count) are purely situational.

Anyone here even consider this before complaining on the forums?

Looria.8019:

And thats the whole idea. It only makes sense that taking out innitiative would meak redesign all skills to the CD based form.

You’d have to do more than that, though. You couldn’t just give them all cool-downs, that would cripple the Thief – literally – since it’s a class that relies on mobility, and that means being able to use movement powers quickly and on the fly. If you changed their weapon skills to CDs you’d need to add a movement quality to more of them, so a player could get in and out of combat as fluidly as they are designed to do now.

Instead I might agree with the other suggestion I saw here of making the damage of those two skills rely on how much Initiative the character has left – that actually sounds fair and doesn’t involve kicking the feet out from under the class.

Right, the whole class would need total overhaul and redesign, thats for sure. I just dont get why you say that the class relies on mobility and thus needs innitiative.

If done well the profession can remain as mobile as it is right now just without innitiative.

I already have thread regarding heartseek changes in Thief section : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Suggestion-Heartseek-fix/first#post235108
I am trying to keep the thread as constructive as possible with different specific ideas how to change the skill to be better overall.

What you mentioned was one of the ideas. On the other hand it has its flaws. Even with 1 innitiative you would be able to use it. It would do small damage, but it would still close the gap between you and your target. So in this case it would require some minimum innitiative, lets say 3-5 to even be able to use the skill. And then the more innitiative you have, the more damage it does and it consumes all your innitiative.

But anyway, thats purely heartseek discussion. What I wanted in this thread was to give ANet idea how to change this profession overall so they dont have to deal with balance issue over and over and over again. Because as long as this profession stays on different base than any other profession, this wont go away.