I’m aware of Tyler’s posts, which if you read them don’t ever promise a 3rd borderlands map. I just wanted to clarify that nowhere in the polls did we say anything about creating a 3rd borderlands map, even though that is stated as a ‘fact’ over and over again on the forums.
Well thanks for waiting nearly a year to clarify Anet’s stance on this….
Whether you all ever intended to make a 3rd bl or not it was pretty clear at the time of the poll that the players were under the impression that they better vote to keep the dbl if they ever wanted to see a new map. Don’t try and act like Tyler’s reddit post had no impact on the decision.Likewise, don’t try to pass this off as Anet’s fault that you guys literally made kitten up and started believing it. There was never any indication whatsoever that keeping DBL would mean a third borderland would be developed.
OriOri, don’t waste your energy. I have come to the conclusion that this all is nothing more than arguing with a rock. Not going to get anywhere with it. It is quite clear what Anet said on the topic. And what a certain portion of the forum posters would rather believe on the topic.
Nice try, though, and I completely agree with you.
I’d wager in T2, or whenever green is dominating, that the action is on blue borderland because there is less desire to play on either red or green. That’s why I suggested on a previous thread that WvW go to only two maps, one for the highest ranked server to defend (like GW1 Fort Aspenwood) and the other an equal fight for all (like GW1 Jade Quarry).
But the metrics would show which servers when red defend DBL and if they attack DBL when not red.
Let’s take a look at all of the other tiers real quick. A dominating server will be italicized and the losing server will be bolded.
Tier 2
47,210 Total Kills
—-
25,247 EBG Kills (53.5%)
11,523 Blue BL Kills (24.4%)
5,513 Red BL Kills (11.7%)
4,927 Green BL Kills (10.4%)
Tier 3
44,165 Total Kills
—-
24,537 EBG Kills (55.6%)
8,591 Blue BL Kills (19.5%)
3,748 Red BL Kills (8.5%)
7,289 Green BL Kills (16.5%)
Tier 4
45,574 Total Kills
—-
27,207 EBG Kills (59.7%)
6,986 Blue BL Kills (15.3%)
4,536 Red BL Kills (10.0%)
6,845 Green BL Kills (15.0%)
Note that the total number of kills per tier is fairly constant. This would suggest that either there is similar population on every world not currently in T1 or that kill count is not a good measure of population or activity.
But to your point, the dominating server’s BL does have lower kills in tiers 2 and 3, but not in tier 4. Meanwhile, the losing server’s BL has higher kills in tiers 2 and 4, but not in 3. If we consider both factors and also that some players will always avoid Red BL, the data makes more sense.
However, while we know that some players avoid Red BL since they state it publicly, we must also consider that there may be more at play. Given the stark differences between the two maps and the playstyles they engender, the already shaky metric of killcount-as-activity may not correlate to each map the same way.
**I have excluded tier 1 from this brief analysis as the data is tainted by an intentional and unrelated effort to manipulate the score on a large-scale. That being one server deciding to tank.
I would argue kill count is a good measure/activity. If there are enough players from each server on a map, they’ll find each other and kill each other. .. and if they can’t/won’t, well then the map isn’t working properly.
Re: T1. Mag hates Red BL. If you even mention it in team chat, everyone will flat-out refuse to go there. Occasionally, you might draw one of the fight guilds out, but only if a very large group is attacking something. Most of the time a group of 2-4 players is enough to flip the map.
I would argue kill count is a good measure/activity. If there are enough players from each server on a map, they’ll find each other and kill each other. .. and if they can’t/won’t, well then the map isn’t working properly.
Re: T1. Mag hates Red BL. If you even mention it in team chat, everyone will flat-out refuse to go there. Occasionally, you might draw one of the fight guilds out, but only if a very large group is attacking something. Most of the time a group of 2-4 players is enough to flip the map.
In all fairness just because the dbl has a lower kill count doesn’t mean it’s completely empty.
In my experiences playing on the dbl across every tier I’ll get maybe 1 kill for every hour I’m on the map. That involves ambushing and chasing players down because the majority of the time they will waypoint away as soon as they see me. The dbl “roamers” actively avoid fights in favor of back capping.
Now I’d argue that this type of playstyle is unhealthy for WvW as it leads to other players quitting out of boredom but there are obviously players that love their pve so much they are fine with carving a chunk out of WvW to have even more of it.
Yeah. I do really like DBL, but the fight avoidance is frustrating sometimes.
Example: 5 players hiding in their keep, building arrow carts to shoot at 2 bored roamers just wanting a fight.
We eventually had to ambush a group taking a tower and catch them by surprise.
(edited by coro.3176)
according to dev tracker (hellooooo) anet read this! like alot of people I voted in dbl as ‘some’ slightly vocal people liked it and it’s their home. More is more in wvw.. we luv you all. However all the ‘you dont have to run for 5 mins or fall off a cliff’ stuff makes me weep. It’s not for me or the majority? of wvwers. You wouldn’t put a multi-storey car park in the middle of a football pitch would you. Please anet come clean and show some stats on player usage in each map so we can have an informed debate. I admit I am biased in that I now longer know people who play dbl….
There are plenty of other options for people who like limited number matchups so we need stats
I’m aware of Tyler’s posts, which if you read them don’t ever promise a 3rd borderlands map. I just wanted to clarify that nowhere in the polls did we say anything about creating a 3rd borderlands map, even though that is stated as a ‘fact’ over and over again on the forums.
relax McKenna, don’t need to be so defensive although i understand… in my opinion you are doing good with the general content of WvW. You are getting flamed because the general discontempt from the general WvW state, that actually the most grave thing is balance. Nothing to do with your works as right now actually.
Once balance is addressed and we as customers and player don’t feel cheated by the game mechanics, and all seems fair and the other teams that affects this game mode actually communicate and the forums mods are updated to version 2.0, you will notice how the general salt in this forum dilutes…
I would argue kill count is a good measure/activity. If there are enough players from each server on a map, they’ll find each other and kill each other. .. and if they can’t/won’t, well then the map isn’t working properly.
Re: T1. Mag hates Red BL. If you even mention it in team chat, everyone will flat-out refuse to go there. Occasionally, you might draw one of the fight guilds out, but only if a very large group is attacking something. Most of the time a group of 2-4 players is enough to flip the map.
Why is it that tiers 2-4 have such similar kill counts, then, despite wide gaps in population? Or would you contend that there are not corresponding gaps in activity?
I don’t think there are wide gaps in population. I don’t have the data, but IIRC the server linkings were done with the intent of standardizing active wvw populations across servers based on something like “number of wvw levels gained across all players that week”.
Also, in the absence of data, I would assume that roughly the same number of total kills means roughly the same number of total players.
Poll this, poll that, I’m right, you’re wrong, blah blah blah.
They should drop polls completely and not use any past polls as a basis on where to take WvW in the future. Never going to get anywhere with that kitten.
I would suggest the old battlegroup idea but really, any way to reinnovate WvW, they should go full force and hopefully increase the game modes longevity.
They could drop polls completely and go back to the old state of relying on selected individuals for feedback, but that system gave us EotM and DBL.
There’s limitations to what you can learn from feedback for every way of collecting it, so it’s better to use as many as practical.
The map was designed for gliding so I dont know why you wouldn’t accommodate for that and instead opt for these tweaks no one really cares about. Non-HoT players don’t have gliders? Allow them to rent one for use only on that map. As someone with HoT I wouldn’t mind this because the alternative is no gliding for everyone.
I think whoever made the decision to pull the gliding feature at the last minute single-handedly caused this trainwreck.
(edited by roamzero.9486)
add flying with 50% speed to DBL and EOTM and make EOTM one of the borderland problem solved.
I think the shrines need to have build in port to another shrine you have with out the need of holding the keep. You can send in a small team to “ninja” a far shrine and then move a full zerg to that shrine and attk from that side.
I think this cap infiltration to pull a big team in is something that needs to be on all the maps.
I’m aware of Tyler’s posts, which if you read them don’t ever promise a 3rd borderlands map. I just wanted to clarify that nowhere in the polls did we say anything about creating a 3rd borderlands map, even though that is stated as a ‘fact’ over and over again on the forums.
Well thanks for waiting nearly a year to clarify Anet’s stance on this….
Whether you all ever intended to make a 3rd bl or not it was pretty clear at the time of the poll that the players were under the impression that they better vote to keep the dbl if they ever wanted to see a new map. Don’t try and act like Tyler’s reddit post had no impact on the decision.Likewise, don’t try to pass this off as Anet’s fault that you guys literally made kitten up and started believing it. There was never any indication whatsoever that keeping DBL would mean a third borderland would be developed.
No, but it was said that voting DBL out would mean that no other borderland would ever be developed. This meant that if someone wanted there to be even a hope, the slightest chance, of another BL at some point in the future, not a guarantee, just the possibility, they had to vote to keep DBL.
I’m soooooo sick of these DBL threads. It’s like beating a dead horse that has putrified, turned to goo, and is now mush from decay and all the beatings. Some of you don’t like the DBL. We get it. But guess what? No one cares.
The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent. The only time I’ve ever lost people is because they’d rather go to EB to be in big zerg fights. But that’s not the same thing as not playing because it’s DBL. DBL does NOT have more or less people playing on it than ABL just because it’s the DBL. More or less people play on it because an objective is there being hit and an enemy or ally responds. I guarantee that when big bad BG has DBL as home, it gets a lot of action.
On reset nights, guilds actually sign up for DBL. This is very telling as we don’t know who we’re fighting yet and we don’t know what server is what color. This is soley chosen because it’s the DBL. I know lots of folks who prefer DBL. The past polling supports these perspectives.
So, please, have a reality check. If you don’t like the DBL that much, THEN STOP PLAYING OR GO TO ANOTHER MAP!!!!! I’m so sick and tired of seeing these threads with the same dumb complaints in them made by totally ignorant people who obviously haven’t played DBL since beta. And even if you are really familiar with DBL, know all the shortcuts, know all the best ways to appoach a structure, know how to solo tower lords and 3 man keep lords, and you still hate it, then just be an adult, kitten, and go to EB or ABL.
Not only am I sick of seeing these posts, I’m deathly afraid that the devs will do something stupid, like getting rid of it, cause there are just a few squeaky wheels out there constantly kittening every day about an issue that was dissected ad nausium and settled a long time ago. GET OVER IT.
(edited by Spurnshadow.3678)
I’m soooooo sick of these DBL threads. It’s like beating a dead horse that has putrified, turned to goo, and is now mush from decay and all the beatings. Some of you don’t like the DBL. We get it. But guess what? No one cares.
But the person who started this thread isn’t a hater….
So don’t post about dbl on here if you don’t want to hear the other side about it.
They could drop polls completely and go back to the old state of relying on selected individuals for feedback, but that system gave us EotM and DBL.
There’s limitations to what you can learn from feedback for every way of collecting it, so it’s better to use as many as practical.
See, this is the ignorance that I’m talking about in my previous thread. EotM was created to be an overflow map because there used to be horrible que times throughout the week. Yes, WvW had that much population. What made queing for WvW even worse, is that we had no idea how big the que was. We just had to wait with our fingers crossed and hope that the que was small. Wait, it gets better. While waiting for the que, you couldn’t change maps. If you did, you’d loose your position and would have to re-que. In came EotM for something for WvW players to do rather than pve, or standing around and trying to remember to move your character so you didn’t get kicked from the game…. and re-que.
But Anet did something really stupid. I don’t know what it was. Something like the left hand didn’t know what the right hand was doing. Because at the same time that they released EotM as an overflow map, they made it so we could see how long the que was. Now, if there were two qued maps, and one had a que of 2, and the other had a que of 50, we could hop on the 2 person map and know we’d get in pretty quickly. Not only that, but either at the same time, or very soon after (I can’t remember the timeframe on this). They made it so that you could swap maps and retain your position in the que. Beyond the brief reasons for the story, this made EotM completely irrelevant, hence it became a Ktrain map.
So, knowledge dropped. Please adjust your perspective and constrain yourself from regurgitating angry ideas backed up by nothing or anecdotes by your fellow players thinking they are facts.
I’m soooooo sick of these DBL threads. It’s like beating a dead horse that has putrified, turned to goo, and is now mush from decay and all the beatings. Some of you don’t like the DBL. We get it. But guess what? No one cares.
But the person who started this thread isn’t a hater….
So don’t post about dbl on here if you don’t want to hear the other side about it.
I know the person who started the thread isn’t a hater. I read his post, and gave him a +1 for it. But it still perpetuates the discussion and it creates yet another thread where the complainers who want DBL removed have a platform.
Yeah. I do really like DBL, but the fight avoidance is frustrating sometimes.
Example: 5 players hiding in their keep, building arrow carts to shoot at 2 bored roamers just wanting a fight.
We eventually had to ambush a group taking a tower and catch them by surprise.
How is this any different from any map? It isn’t. It’s the same on EB and ABL.
I’m soooooo sick of these DBL threads. It’s like beating a dead horse that has putrified, turned to goo, and is now mush from decay and all the beatings. Some of you don’t like the DBL. We get it. But guess what? No one cares.
The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent. The only time I’ve ever lost people is because they’d rather go to EB to be in big zerg fights. But that’s not the same thing as not playing because it’s DBL. DBL does NOT have more or less people playing on it than ABL just because it’s the DBL. More or less people play on it because an objective is there being hit and an enemy or ally responds. I guarantee that when big bad BG has DBL as home, it gets a lot of action.
On reset nights, guilds actually sign up for DBL. This is very telling as we don’t know who we’re fighting yet and we don’t know what server is what color. This is soley chosen because it’s the DBL. I know lots of folks who prefer DBL. The past polling supports these perspectives.
So, please, have a reality check. If you don’t like the DBL that much, THEN STOP PLAYING OR GO TO ANOTHER MAP!!!!! I’m so sick and tired of seeing these threads with the same dumb complaints in them made by totally ignorant people who obviously haven’t played DBL since beta. And even if you are really familiar with DBL, know all the shortcuts, know all the best ways to appoach a structure, know how to solo tower lords and 3 man keep lords, and you still hate it, then just be an adult, kitten, and go to EB or ABL.
Not only am I sick of seeing these posts, I’m deathly afraid that the devs will do something stupid, like getting rid of it, cause there are just a few squeaky wheels out there constantly kittening every day about an issue that was dissected ad nausium and settled a long time ago. GET OVER IT.
If you dont like reading threads or posts abojt DBL…dont. No one is forcing you. Get on with what you do want to do and, “get over it.”
You, by the way, are mistaken about no one caring if a poster dislikes DBL.
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.
That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
(edited by XenesisII.1540)
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side, people hate it, people love it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
I might be inclined to agree if ANet had not chosen to establish the precedent that sufficient complaints will convince them to reverse course on some even more fundamental design decisions than this.
If you don’t like the DBL that much, THEN STOP PLAYING OR GO TO ANOTHER MAP!!!!!
That’s exactly what they do, and that’s the problem. DBL is pretty empty most of the time compared to the other maps.
The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent. .
Wrong. The majority of people, as seen by activity on the map, don’t like or are not OK with it, or there would be more people on it.
We have people in our guild who won’t bother raiding if it’s on DBL, mainly because the pickings are so lean and it’s ‘run around looking for something to fight’ most of the time which gets boring real fast when you’re raiding, looking for fights. In the end, a lot of the time the raid moves to an Alpine to find some action, as pvd isn’t really our thing.
It’s not a map conducive to tactics, objects aren’t connected or impact on one another and entire zergs can run past each other without noticing.
About the only time it gets interesting is when two servers decide to attack/defend it, but even then trying to get small parties to split off and press other objectives is difficult as the response generally is ‘why bother, it has no effect here and it’s too far to run/boring/lack of loot’.
A lot of people voted, rightly or wrongly, to keep the Deserted BL because of the implied threat in the obtuse question that was set.
The one easy way to resolve the issue is to have another vote with the simple question: should we remove or keep DBL?. Just that. No caveats, questions or answers, just that. Then we’ll know the true measure of the wvw player base’s thoughts on it.
I’m not a fan of it, but not sure which way I would vote. Personally, I’d like to see less total maps but they won’t spend any time working on a map and three copies of EB would be a tad samey….
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
Then shut up and move on
I’d wager in T2, or whenever green is dominating, that the action is on blue borderland because there is less desire to play on either red or green. That’s why I suggested on a previous thread that WvW go to only two maps, one for the highest ranked server to defend (like GW1 Fort Aspenwood) and the other an equal fight for all (like GW1 Jade Quarry).
But the metrics would show which servers when red defend DBL and if they attack DBL when not red.
Let’s take a look at all of the other tiers real quick. A dominating server will be italicized and the losing server will be bolded.
Tier 2
47,210 Total Kills
—-
25,247 EBG Kills (53.5%)
11,523 Blue BL Kills (24.4%)
5,513 Red BL Kills (11.7%)
4,927 Green BL Kills (10.4%)Tier 3
44,165 Total Kills
—-
24,537 EBG Kills (55.6%)
8,591 Blue BL Kills (19.5%)
3,748 Red BL Kills (8.5%)
7,289 Green BL Kills (16.5%)Tier 4
45,574 Total Kills
—-
27,207 EBG Kills (59.7%)
6,986 Blue BL Kills (15.3%)
4,536 Red BL Kills (10.0%)
6,845 Green BL Kills (15.0%)Note that the total number of kills per tier is fairly constant. This would suggest that either there is similar population on every world not currently in T1 or that kill count is not a good measure of population or activity.
But to your point, the dominating server’s BL does have lower kills in tiers 2 and 3, but not in tier 4. Meanwhile, the losing server’s BL has higher kills in tiers 2 and 4, but not in 3. If we consider both factors and also that some players will always avoid Red BL, the data makes more sense.
However, while we know that some players avoid Red BL since they state it publicly, we must also consider that there may be more at play. Given the stark differences between the two maps and the playstyles they engender, the already shaky metric of killcount-as-activity may not correlate to each map the same way.
**I have excluded tier 1 from this brief analysis as the data is tainted by an intentional and unrelated effort to manipulate the score on a large-scale. That being one server deciding to tank.
From what week have these numbers been taken? Why did you not include T1? That makes no sense.
This has massively flawed logic. Number of kills is not an indication of avoidance, it’s an indicator of how bad a server is. If these numbers are form this week, BG has been farming the crap out of the other servers. We aren’t playing as much cause it’s just getting boring at this point. It’s easier to cap objectives on Blue BL as they have a lower population and don’t defend as much as Red. That makes for easier points. It also creates more of an opportunity for farming. Also, Red hits Blue a lot. They’d rather cap the keeps there than deal with BG on Green BL. It’s just the path of least resistance for PPT. Again, nothing to do with hating DBL. BG generally stays on EB and just gets most of it’s PPT from kills from both red and blue. Many of the big guilds in BG just don’t even care to try to flip T3 keeps.
I can’t speak for the other tiers as I don’t know their strategies, but I’m sure there’s much more involved that just “I hate DBL. lets loose rather than playing there.” But my rebuttal point is that there are many more factors than just, it’s DBL, lets not play there.
The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent. .
Wrong. The majority of people, as seen by activity on the map, don’t like or are not OK with it, or there would be more people on it.
We have people in our guild who won’t bother raiding if it’s on DBL, mainly because the pickings are so lean and it’s ‘run around looking for something to fight’ most of the time which gets boring real fast when you’re raiding, looking for fights. In the end, a lot of the time the raid moves to an Alpine to find some action, as pvd isn’t really our thing.
It’s not a map conducive to tactics, objects aren’t connected or impact on one another and entire zergs can run past each other without noticing.
About the only time it gets interesting is when two servers decide to attack/defend it, but even then trying to get small parties to split off and press other objectives is difficult as the response generally is ‘why bother, it has no effect here and it’s too far to run/boring/lack of loot’.
A lot of people voted, rightly or wrongly, to keep the Deserted BL because of the implied threat in the obtuse question that was set.
The one easy way to resolve the issue is to have another vote with the simple question: should we remove or keep DBL?. Just that. No caveats, questions or answers, just that. Then we’ll know the true measure of the wvw player base’s thoughts on it.
I’m not a fan of it, but not sure which way I would vote. Personally, I’d like to see less total maps but they won’t spend any time working on a map and three copies of EB would be a tad samey….
Unfortunately even a new poll might be insufficient as the threat you mention would be implied unless there was some solid indication of a reversal of stance by Anet on the matter.
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
Then shut up and move on
You first sir! you first!
From what week have these numbers been taken? Why did you not include T1? That makes no sense.
Probably because T1 has Maguuma on Red. Maguuma hates DBL so much that 5 people could be taking garrison on DBL, and no one will bother to come defend it.
I bet the kill numbers in T1 DBL are like 1/2 or less of what they are on the other tiers.
WoW glad I got my popcorn! This topic is all over the place lol!
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
Then shut up and move on
You first sir! you first!
Oh I have. I haven’t participated in the last several dbl threads, the only reason I popped up in this one was because of the dev’s snarky comment.
I’ve about given up on expecting anet to put forth any real effort as far as WvW is concerned which means it’s doubtful they will remove the dbl. I just avoid it unless I’m short on time and need an easy daily. Hell I can even solo my daily keep capture there without any fear of being interrupted.
I will however continue to debate blatantly false statements like Spurnshadow claiming, “The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent.”
He may like the map and that’s fine but that statement is complete kitten and everyone knows it. You can’t go more than a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread pop up asking to get rid of the dbl. Any time people call for help capping or defending something in the dbl in team chat there are multiple responses along the lines of “kitten that kittening map.” If he really thinks every one is fine with it just because he likes the map then he is fooling himself.
Scouting keep swords is significantly more difficult. The attacking locations are far more complex and the keeps are more difficult to traverse.
Defending towers while being attacked is nearly pointless due to their size and supply locations. Attackers can knock down a wall down before a defender can build counter siege. Even keeping their siege disabled is nearly impossible without a fast build.
There are WAY too many ways to get lost on the map or outright trapped by terrain from reaching an objective without backtracking.
Those are my big 3 gripes about the map.
I’d wager in T2, or whenever green is dominating, that the action is on blue borderland because there is less desire to play on either red or green. That’s why I suggested on a previous thread that WvW go to only two maps, one for the highest ranked server to defend (like GW1 Fort Aspenwood) and the other an equal fight for all (like GW1 Jade Quarry).
But the metrics would show which servers when red defend DBL and if they attack DBL when not red.
Let’s take a look at all of the other tiers real quick. A dominating server will be italicized and the losing server will be bolded.
Tier 2
47,210 Total Kills
—-
25,247 EBG Kills (53.5%)
11,523 Blue BL Kills (24.4%)
5,513 Red BL Kills (11.7%)
4,927 Green BL Kills (10.4%)Tier 3
44,165 Total Kills
—-
24,537 EBG Kills (55.6%)
8,591 Blue BL Kills (19.5%)
3,748 Red BL Kills (8.5%)
7,289 Green BL Kills (16.5%)Tier 4
45,574 Total Kills
—-
27,207 EBG Kills (59.7%)
6,986 Blue BL Kills (15.3%)
4,536 Red BL Kills (10.0%)
6,845 Green BL Kills (15.0%)Note that the total number of kills per tier is fairly constant. This would suggest that either there is similar population on every world not currently in T1 or that kill count is not a good measure of population or activity.
But to your point, the dominating server’s BL does have lower kills in tiers 2 and 3, but not in tier 4. Meanwhile, the losing server’s BL has higher kills in tiers 2 and 4, but not in 3. If we consider both factors and also that some players will always avoid Red BL, the data makes more sense.
However, while we know that some players avoid Red BL since they state it publicly, we must also consider that there may be more at play. Given the stark differences between the two maps and the playstyles they engender, the already shaky metric of killcount-as-activity may not correlate to each map the same way.
**I have excluded tier 1 from this brief analysis as the data is tainted by an intentional and unrelated effort to manipulate the score on a large-scale. That being one server deciding to tank.
Actually Juno you’re an idiot. Please don’t speak on subjects you’re ignorant on. Maguuma home BL is red. no one on maguuma cares about home BL nor PPT. JQ and a particular commander during SEA and EU prefers to fight doors on empty BLs all day. It has nothing to do to widespread point manipulation, it has everything to do with its 2017 and no one on maguuma cares about winning or losing weekly. Just about fights kid.
I’d wager in T2, or whenever green is dominating, that the action is on blue borderland because there is less desire to play on either red or green. That’s why I suggested on a previous thread that WvW go to only two maps, one for the highest ranked server to defend (like GW1 Fort Aspenwood) and the other an equal fight for all (like GW1 Jade Quarry).
But the metrics would show which servers when red defend DBL and if they attack DBL when not red.
Let’s take a look at all of the other tiers real quick. A dominating server will be italicized and the losing server will be bolded.
Tier 2
47,210 Total Kills
—-
25,247 EBG Kills (53.5%)
11,523 Blue BL Kills (24.4%)
5,513 Red BL Kills (11.7%)
4,927 Green BL Kills (10.4%)Tier 3
44,165 Total Kills
—-
24,537 EBG Kills (55.6%)
8,591 Blue BL Kills (19.5%)
3,748 Red BL Kills (8.5%)
7,289 Green BL Kills (16.5%)Tier 4
45,574 Total Kills
—-
27,207 EBG Kills (59.7%)
6,986 Blue BL Kills (15.3%)
4,536 Red BL Kills (10.0%)
6,845 Green BL Kills (15.0%)Note that the total number of kills per tier is fairly constant. This would suggest that either there is similar population on every world not currently in T1 or that kill count is not a good measure of population or activity.
But to your point, the dominating server’s BL does have lower kills in tiers 2 and 3, but not in tier 4. Meanwhile, the losing server’s BL has higher kills in tiers 2 and 4, but not in 3. If we consider both factors and also that some players will always avoid Red BL, the data makes more sense.
However, while we know that some players avoid Red BL since they state it publicly, we must also consider that there may be more at play. Given the stark differences between the two maps and the playstyles they engender, the already shaky metric of killcount-as-activity may not correlate to each map the same way.
**I have excluded tier 1 from this brief analysis as the data is tainted by an intentional and unrelated effort to manipulate the score on a large-scale. That being one server deciding to tank.
Actually Juno you’re an idiot. Please don’t speak on subjects you’re ignorant on. Maguuma home BL is red. no one on maguuma cares about home BL nor PPT. JQ and a particular commander during SEA and EU prefers to fight doors on empty BLs all day. It has nothing to do to widespread point manipulation, it has everything to do with its 2017 and no one on maguuma cares about winning or losing weekly. Just about fights kid.
Here they go again!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhXOVQprYxk
Then shut up and move on
You first sir! you first!
Oh I have. I haven’t participated in the last several dbl threads, the only reason I popped up in this one was because of the dev’s snarky comment.
I’ve about given up on expecting anet to put forth any real effort as far as WvW is concerned which means it’s doubtful they will remove the dbl. I just avoid it unless I’m short on time and need an easy daily. Hell I can even solo my daily keep capture there without any fear of being interrupted.
I will however continue to debate blatantly false statements like Spurnshadow claiming, “The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent.”
He may like the map and that’s fine but that statement is complete kitten and everyone knows it. You can’t go more than a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread pop up asking to get rid of the dbl. Any time people call for help capping or defending something in the dbl in team chat there are multiple responses along the lines of “kitten that kittening map.” If he really thinks every one is fine with it just because he likes the map then he is fooling himself.
I don’t disagree.
The two threads I hate seeing popping up every other week is the desert bl and tournaments.
I’ve tried to remind neutral in this discussion going back a year. I was one of the first to jump on the simultaneous borderlands bandwagon because I know there are some players that like it, personally I don’t, but everyone deserves to play on the map they want at all times, not on a 6 month rotation. Some people can’t live with that compromise for some reason, even though they have alpines on two other maps to play if they wish.
If you like the map that’s great, it’s there for you to play.
The same goes for the other side, the map was voted in, live with it and move on.
The map obviously has a major love hate in here, post suggestions for changes and move on, people should stop trying to convince either side their opinion is right, the map is there, play it or don’t, some of us are tired of seeing the year of bickering over it.
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
Then shut up and move on
You first sir! you first!
Oh I have. I haven’t participated in the last several dbl threads, the only reason I popped up in this one was because of the dev’s snarky comment.
I’ve about given up on expecting anet to put forth any real effort as far as WvW is concerned which means it’s doubtful they will remove the dbl. I just avoid it unless I’m short on time and need an easy daily. Hell I can even solo my daily keep capture there without any fear of being interrupted.
I will however continue to debate blatantly false statements like Spurnshadow claiming, “The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent.”
He may like the map and that’s fine but that statement is complete kitten and everyone knows it. You can’t go more than a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread pop up asking to get rid of the dbl. Any time people call for help capping or defending something in the dbl in team chat there are multiple responses along the lines of “kitten that kittening map.” If he really thinks every one is fine with it just because he likes the map then he is fooling himself.
Jim, the reason you can’t go a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread on this subject is because the same people start the threads over and over again. A handful of poeple is not representative of WvW.
I play with all commanders during all timezones except SEA. I’ve never heard of a player not following a commander to red BL cause they hate it that much. Maybe a commander may not go, but he’s the leader of the group. There may be lots of other factors.
Scouting keep swords is significantly more difficult. The attacking locations are far more complex and the keeps are more difficult to traverse.
Defending towers while being attacked is nearly pointless due to their size and supply locations. Attackers can knock down a wall down before a defender can build counter siege. Even keeping their siege disabled is nearly impossible without a fast build.
There are WAY too many ways to get lost on the map or outright trapped by terrain from reaching an objective without backtracking.
Those are my big 3 gripes about the map.
Just sounds like a typical player who can’t be bothered to learn the map. God forbid.
I’d wager in T2, or whenever green is dominating, that the action is on blue borderland because there is less desire to play on either red or green. That’s why I suggested on a previous thread that WvW go to only two maps, one for the highest ranked server to defend (like GW1 Fort Aspenwood) and the other an equal fight for all (like GW1 Jade Quarry).
But the metrics would show which servers when red defend DBL and if they attack DBL when not red.
Let’s take a look at all of the other tiers real quick. A dominating server will be italicized and the losing server will be bolded.
Tier 2
47,210 Total Kills
—-
25,247 EBG Kills (53.5%)
11,523 Blue BL Kills (24.4%)
5,513 Red BL Kills (11.7%)
4,927 Green BL Kills (10.4%)Tier 3
44,165 Total Kills
—-
24,537 EBG Kills (55.6%)
8,591 Blue BL Kills (19.5%)
3,748 Red BL Kills (8.5%)
7,289 Green BL Kills (16.5%)Tier 4
45,574 Total Kills
—-
27,207 EBG Kills (59.7%)
6,986 Blue BL Kills (15.3%)
4,536 Red BL Kills (10.0%)
6,845 Green BL Kills (15.0%)Note that the total number of kills per tier is fairly constant. This would suggest that either there is similar population on every world not currently in T1 or that kill count is not a good measure of population or activity.
But to your point, the dominating server’s BL does have lower kills in tiers 2 and 3, but not in tier 4. Meanwhile, the losing server’s BL has higher kills in tiers 2 and 4, but not in 3. If we consider both factors and also that some players will always avoid Red BL, the data makes more sense.
However, while we know that some players avoid Red BL since they state it publicly, we must also consider that there may be more at play. Given the stark differences between the two maps and the playstyles they engender, the already shaky metric of killcount-as-activity may not correlate to each map the same way.
**I have excluded tier 1 from this brief analysis as the data is tainted by an intentional and unrelated effort to manipulate the score on a large-scale. That being one server deciding to tank.
Actually Juno you’re an idiot. Please don’t speak on subjects you’re ignorant on. Maguuma home BL is red. no one on maguuma cares about home BL nor PPT. JQ and a particular commander during SEA and EU prefers to fight doors on empty BLs all day. It has nothing to do to widespread point manipulation, it has everything to do with its 2017 and no one on maguuma cares about winning or losing weekly. Just about fights kid.
Yup. Cloudfly et. al. (That’s JQ) All they want to do is Ktrain. Mag, they want fights and farm baddies on EB, so they hold SM and their keep, farm.
See, this is the ignorance that I’m talking about in my previous thread.
Sorry, I don’t make a habit of reading your posts.
EotM was created to be an overflow map…
Yes. This, and the entire rest of your post, is actually completely irrelevant to my point. In case you’ve never played there, EotM is not particularly famed for having a map design that’s great for WvW gameplay. It looks interesting, and has some interesting ideas, but the design shows more understanding of how to make players fall off cliffs than how to give them a good gameplay experience. (It came out about the same time as Skyhammer… I think it was a phase.)
Don’t get me wrong, knocking people off cliffs can be fun, but it’s never become popular amongst people looking for a good battle, even when their regular match was a blowout.
DBL is a slightly different scenario because it is actually rooted in player feedback from the CDIs. Barricades for example were a clear attempt at trying to give towers control over nearby territory; the spacing of the towers so you couldn’t siege keeps from them, and vice versa, was a similar response that all the AFK treb heroes now perceive as a step in the wrong direction.
If they’d run open betas and polled players, they would have seen that DBL wasn’t going to be such a hit long before it was released. Polls aren’t great at telling you how to fix something, but they’re not bad for showing you whether it’s working.
I’m aware of Tyler’s posts, which if you read them don’t ever promise a 3rd borderlands map. I just wanted to clarify that nowhere in the polls did we say anything about creating a 3rd borderlands map, even though that is stated as a ‘fact’ over and over again on the forums.
relax McKenna, don’t need to be so defensive although i understand… in my opinion you are doing good with the general content of WvW. You are getting flamed because the general discontempt from the general WvW state, that actually the most grave thing is balance. Nothing to do with your works as right now actually.
Once balance is addressed and we as customers and player don’t feel cheated by the game mechanics, and all seems fair and the other teams that affects this game mode actually communicate and the forums mods are updated to version 2.0, you will notice how the general salt in this forum dilutes…
Sadly, there’s no way to impact any decisions regarding general balance until something in PvE breaks. There is next to zero attention given to WvW’s balance issues, and very little effort is made on making the design of the professions better for competitive play, and actually minimal effort to change balance issues has been ANet’s motto since 2012 via “low hanging fruit” fixes, regardless of the underlying needs for change. ESL players have made extensive complaint threads and during competitive events broken down the weaknesses of the game and why it was suffering/has suffered the fate it has in attempts to get resolutions from the profession devs. Nothing has changed. I sincerely doubt it’s that they’re unaware of the problems. It’s just that for whatever reason, someone doesn’t care enough to make it a priority.
We saw how important reworks are in how the ranger CDI made the entire existence of longbow a viable option for the ranger in the game and in general improved the class massively. We’re still on pre-rework-anything for 8 other professions five years later.
People shouldn’t be flaming the WvW devs, though. They really should be flaming the PvE devs for killing small-scale with the guild hall buff changes and the terrible excuses for balance and diversity we have at the moment.
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
Then shut up and move on
You first sir! you first!
Oh I have. I haven’t participated in the last several dbl threads, the only reason I popped up in this one was because of the dev’s snarky comment.
I’ve about given up on expecting anet to put forth any real effort as far as WvW is concerned which means it’s doubtful they will remove the dbl. I just avoid it unless I’m short on time and need an easy daily. Hell I can even solo my daily keep capture there without any fear of being interrupted.
I will however continue to debate blatantly false statements like Spurnshadow claiming, “The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent.”
He may like the map and that’s fine but that statement is complete kitten and everyone knows it. You can’t go more than a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread pop up asking to get rid of the dbl. Any time people call for help capping or defending something in the dbl in team chat there are multiple responses along the lines of “kitten that kittening map.” If he really thinks every one is fine with it just because he likes the map then he is fooling himself.
Jim, the reason you can’t go a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread on this subject is because the same people start the threads over and over again. A handful of poeple is not representative of WvW.
I play with all commanders during all timezones except SEA. I’ve never heard of a player not following a commander to red BL cause they hate it that much. Maybe a commander may not go, but he’s the leader of the group. There may be lots of other factors.
And then there’s the same handful of people that come to defend it, and as you said, "A handful of people is not representative of WvW. "
I’ve seen multiple people across a number of different servers flat out refuse to play on the dbl because they hate it. Hell, almost every single player on Mag avoids it like the plague. Saying that everyone is “fine” with the dbl is being disingenuous at best.
Well people from both sides need to just shut up about it already and move on.
Stop trying to convince the other side in here, people hate it or people love it by playing it, move on.
It’s not going to get removed, move on.
There’s three other maps to play on if you don’t like it, move on.That’s why I hate these forums sometimes, people come in here bringing up the same kitten over and over again when it’s full well known a change will not be made, move on.
Then shut up and move on
You first sir! you first!
Oh I have. I haven’t participated in the last several dbl threads, the only reason I popped up in this one was because of the dev’s snarky comment.
I’ve about given up on expecting anet to put forth any real effort as far as WvW is concerned which means it’s doubtful they will remove the dbl. I just avoid it unless I’m short on time and need an easy daily. Hell I can even solo my daily keep capture there without any fear of being interrupted.
I will however continue to debate blatantly false statements like Spurnshadow claiming, “The majority of people either like it or are ok with it. I think the amount of people who would not play because their guild or commander is running on DBL is almost non-existent.”
He may like the map and that’s fine but that statement is complete kitten and everyone knows it. You can’t go more than a couple days on this forum without seeing a thread pop up asking to get rid of the dbl. Any time people call for help capping or defending something in the dbl in team chat there are multiple responses along the lines of “kitten that kittening map.” If he really thinks every one is fine with it just because he likes the map then he is fooling himself.
Yet the number of threads started about Desert Borderlands with those same persons claiming they do not like them and should be removed has no more merit as a basis for an argument on this matter then the number of threads started by people complaining about conditions.
It is my observation that people that are vehemently against things tend to start more such threads as a matter of course.
From what week have these numbers been taken? Why did you not include T1? That makes no sense.
This has massively flawed logic. Number of kills is not an indication of avoidance, it’s an indicator of how bad a server is. If these numbers are form this week, BG has been farming the crap out of the other servers. We aren’t playing as much cause it’s just getting boring at this point. It’s easier to cap objectives on Blue BL as they have a lower population and don’t defend as much as Red. That makes for easier points. It also creates more of an opportunity for farming. Also, Red hits Blue a lot. They’d rather cap the keeps there than deal with BG on Green BL. It’s just the path of least resistance for PPT. Again, nothing to do with hating DBL. BG generally stays on EB and just gets most of it’s PPT from kills from both red and blue. Many of the big guilds in BG just don’t even care to try to flip T3 keeps.
I can’t speak for the other tiers as I don’t know their strategies, but I’m sure there’s much more involved that just “I hate DBL. lets loose rather than playing there.” But my rebuttal point is that there are many more factors than just, it’s DBL, lets not play there.
Hmmm…It sounds a lot like you’re saying that the spike in action on Blue BL is because they’re the weakest server…which is what I said in the first place…Meanwhile, your rebuttal to me saying that was that it was DBL and people didn’t want to fight there and also didn’t want to fight the dominating server…but now you’re saying the opposite on DBL. I’m starting to wonder if I’m talking to a different person, honestly.
Also, I pulled the numbers from wvwintel right before I made the post.
Melanurus.1506Actually Juno you’re an idiot. Please don’t speak on subjects you’re ignorant on. Maguuma home BL is red. no one on maguuma cares about home BL nor PPT. JQ and a particular commander during SEA and EU prefers to fight doors on empty BLs all day. It has nothing to do to widespread point manipulation, it has everything to do with its 2017 and no one on maguuma cares about winning or losing weekly. Just about fights kid.
For those of you watching at home, this gentleman is a former guildmate of mine. He really hates me, for some reason, but I can’t say I care enough to have ever figured out why.
Anyway, it’s possible that Mag has changed lately, but they did used to play on the borderlands (even DBL) quite a bit. I should know, I fought them myself for weeks. They were so familiar with me just from our fights over Firekeep that 2 separate guilds asked me to hop servers and join them. Either way, the point against using their data to determine whether DBL is popular or not stands. Since Mag is not playing on their home border for reasons that have nothing to do with it being DBL, apparently, it doesn’t make sense to use their lack of activity on that map as a condemnation of it. Thus, I stand by my exclusion of T1 from the data set as it’s skewed by their decision.
I demand 3 Desert Borderlands, get rid of the Alpine borderlands
Thanks
It’s a vocal minority that loves DBL. EU/NA Kills/Death stats are posted every week on WvW Reddit and show that it’s the least played map.
It is the least played map simply becasue the logistics of the map are bad compared to the other 2 maps. And the way the map is layed out makes avoiding fights easyer. Lastly the mechanics of the NPCs is overtuned compared to the other 2 maps. Thats how the map sits now. Thats not even considering how the map was at launch.
On a side note, not only does every tower, and keep have too many destructible walls, but getting to them in the first place takes too long. Which makes defending a nightmare, when the map feels like it was designed to make it easy for players to sneak around. All of the objectives are simply too big and spread out in addition to.
It’ is a bad map.
Maguuma never played DBL.
(edited by Warlord.9074)
If ANet ever removes either DBL or ABL, I’m out. I’ll still play as long as both are there.
From what week have these numbers been taken? Why did you not include T1? That makes no sense.
This has massively flawed logic. Number of kills is not an indication of avoidance, it’s an indicator of how bad a server is. If these numbers are form this week, BG has been farming the crap out of the other servers. We aren’t playing as much cause it’s just getting boring at this point. It’s easier to cap objectives on Blue BL as they have a lower population and don’t defend as much as Red. That makes for easier points. It also creates more of an opportunity for farming. Also, Red hits Blue a lot. They’d rather cap the keeps there than deal with BG on Green BL. It’s just the path of least resistance for PPT. Again, nothing to do with hating DBL. BG generally stays on EB and just gets most of it’s PPT from kills from both red and blue. Many of the big guilds in BG just don’t even care to try to flip T3 keeps.
I can’t speak for the other tiers as I don’t know their strategies, but I’m sure there’s much more involved that just “I hate DBL. lets loose rather than playing there.” But my rebuttal point is that there are many more factors than just, it’s DBL, lets not play there.
Hmmm…It sounds a lot like you’re saying that the spike in action on Blue BL is because they’re the weakest server…which is what I said in the first place…Meanwhile, your rebuttal to me saying that was that it was DBL and people didn’t want to fight there and also didn’t want to fight the dominating server…but now you’re saying the opposite on DBL. I’m starting to wonder if I’m talking to a different person, honestly.
Also, I pulled the numbers from wvwintel right before I made the post.
Melanurus.1506Actually Juno you’re an idiot. Please don’t speak on subjects you’re ignorant on. Maguuma home BL is red. no one on maguuma cares about home BL nor PPT. JQ and a particular commander during SEA and EU prefers to fight doors on empty BLs all day. It has nothing to do to widespread point manipulation, it has everything to do with its 2017 and no one on maguuma cares about winning or losing weekly. Just about fights kid.
For those of you watching at home, this gentleman is a former guildmate of mine. He really hates me, for some reason, but I can’t say I care enough to have ever figured out why.
Anyway, it’s possible that Mag has changed lately, but they did used to play on the borderlands (even DBL) quite a bit. I should know, I fought them myself for weeks. They were so familiar with me just from our fights over Firekeep that 2 separate guilds asked me to hop servers and join them. Either way, the point against using their data to determine whether DBL is popular or not stands. Since Mag is not playing on their home border for reasons that have nothing to do with it being DBL, apparently, it doesn’t make sense to use their lack of activity on that map as a condemnation of it. Thus, I stand by my exclusion of T1 from the data set as it’s skewed by their decision.
Will Maguuma play on DBL if there are fights on there? Yes. Will Maguuma actively defend home bl if it’s DBL? No. it’s a general consensus that map sucks. May I ask what guilds recruited you because they were in awe of your defensive skills? It couldn’t have been one of mags good guilds. Mag doesn’t siege any keep or refresh siege. You don’t understand the mindset of the players on Maguuma. They do not care about PPT or sitting in keeps defending it for hours. They want fights and that’s it. It’s pretty simple.
The above post makes me want to post a ton of screen shots of heavily sieged keeps owned by the server in question. Saying they don’t do this qualifies as alternative facts.
The above post makes me want to post a ton of screen shots of heavily sieged keeps owned by the server in question. Saying they don’t do this qualifies as alternative facts.
Has mag sieged things before? Sure, however on a daily basis which gets refreshed during the day. No way. Show me screen shots with time stamps that it is sieged on a daily basis and consistently please.
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