Guild Wars 2

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

Ok so Superior arrowcarts have a limit of 50 people(?) and for sake of arguement (seen hits for 2.5k and 1.8k) that it hits 2k per hit (1s) now with 2 arrowcarts thats 4k per second for 50 people provided they are “zerging” and facerubbing a door.

Over 10 seconds that is a total of 40,000 damage (20,000 per arrowcart) for 50 people. Now take into account the healing/regen/waterfields that people are able to blow off, it is realistically impossible to sustain a 20,000 healing amount per 10 seconds for any group let alone 40,000 healing per 10 seconds. Factor in a 33% damage reduction from protection and you still realistically wouldnt be able to do it.

That is 2 pieces of siege holding off 50 people.

Now we come to your response which is “DONT FACERUB THE GATE HURR” “TREB” “RAM” “CATA” and so on and so forth and around in circles we go.

I will point this out one last time; math on a message board does not equal experiential results. I play in T1 with massive amounts of people on either side of these fights, and I’ve been in lots of keep defenses and sieges since the patch. None of the horrible bloody disasters you are describing are happening. I will say it again; you may be writing about it here, but it is not happening out there. It’s just not. Keeps are flipping, towers are flipping, camps are being taken and open field fights are happening galore.

You know what? Heh…that pretty much talks me out of this whole debate. I’m sure it will please you and others no end to see me withdraw from the thread, but I don’t see the point anymore. I’m not saying all these things because “I just gotta be RIGHT, kitten ”; I’m saying all these things because I see it, fight after fight after fight. Arrow carts needed a buff. The change is good, and workable (with a caveat for those servers in highly unbalanced population situations as was pointed out by Ruprecht).

Enjoy the good fights. I know I will.

If people in this thread were really against the zerg they would embrace the buff only being appied to outmanned.Period .Anything else makes no sense and actually encorages zerging the outmanned while gimping outmanned servers even more.

If a server has only 10 guys online and outmanned will never be able to cap any tower at all cuz of 1 person on AC.While the big server will run in circles capping their other stuff down.

So is anyone still playing ACvACvAC?

This just in, the US Navy is officially replacing the Phalanx CIWS with Superior Arrow Carts. Costs are expected to be in the trillions.

Aeonblade.8709:

This just in, the US Navy is officially replacing the Phalanx CIWS with Superior Arrow Carts. Costs are expected to be in the trillions.

But still cost less than rams

Lets see if I understand this right..

Before the patch, a group of 50 people comes up on a defended keep with arrowcarts, with say 20 defenders….

They blow through the keep and take it because 20 people with ArrowCarts couldn’t do squat against 50 people.

Now the 50 people are dying and are kind of mad they can’t take a defended keep anymore as easily as before?

Also the whole “Well small mans are screwed cause they can’t take a Supply camp with someone defending with and arrow cart”

That is a load of horsekitten by zergers who are mad they can’t out zerg people anymore.

I small man all the time, I solo all the time, I can safely say if you have an arrow cart in a Supply camp I’ll run in and kill you before you can kill me with an Arrow Cart, hell as a ranger i can send my pet in and he’ll kill you or the siege weapon and you’ll not be able to do squat about it (the guards won’t help you)

I’m sorry you guys can’t bum rush defended keeps anymore with massive numbers and take it…I’m sorry you’ll have to rethink your strategy, but don’t try and use Small Mans and Solo’s as an excuse to nerf Arrow Carts because you want to be a Sea of Bad and throw yourself against a defended gate.

OutspokenAardvark.9781:

So is anyone still playing ACvACvAC?

Nope!

Why would i play a gamemode that encourages stationary gameplay.

Xsorus.2507:

Lets see if I understand this right..

Before the patch, a group of 50 people comes up on a defended keep with arrowcarts, with say 20 defenders….

They blow through the keep and take it because 20 people with ArrowCarts couldn’t do squat against 50 people.

Now the 50 people are dying and are kind of mad they can’t take a defended keep anymore as easily as before?

Also the whole “Well small mans are screwed cause they can’t take a Supply camp with someone defending with and arrow cart”

That is a load of horsekitten by zergers who are mad they can’t out zerg people anymore.

I small man all the time, I solo all the time, I can safely say if you have an arrow cart in a Supply camp I’ll run in and kill you before you can kill me with an Arrow Cart, hell as a ranger i can send my pet in and he’ll kill you or the siege weapon and you’ll not be able to do squat about it (the guards won’t help you)

I’m sorry you guys can’t bum rush defended keeps anymore with massive numbers and take it…I’m sorry you’ll have to rethink your strategy, but don’t try and use Small Mans and Solo’s as an excuse to nerf Arrow Carts because you want to be a Sea of Bad and throw yourself against a defended gate.

Whaaa? So 20 defenders can’t build4 superior arrow carts to defend against 50 ppl before the patch? Really?We all have seen golem rushes melted by less. I believe what you were experiencing was a chronic symptom of terrible defensive tactics.Pretty much like everything you mentioned in your post.

graverr.6473:

Jski.6180:

graverr.6473:

Jski.6180:

Last point mainly so adding in a 30 sec lag time for under attk harms small scale teams? Your cherry picking parts of this patch for your point of view. If you hatted AC before the patch then your going to hate them after. This is just some evidences that ppl have been waiting for to kittenhis weapon (all be it very bad evidences with one video and a lot of hear say and pic of ppl putting up arrow carts).
The truth is ppl have wanted AC removed from WvW for a long time but these same ppl want all things removed from WvW they just want an open pvp game. They are trying to forces GW2 into something that THEY want and that the community dose NOT want

Ever heard of scouts ? I know at least 5 servers that constantly have 2 or 3 people inside ANY tower and that was prepatch.Argument cannot stand.

It dose stand because the 30 sec trick dose not harm the small man group it harms the zerg size group. Just because ppl can deal with it or not dose not changes the fact of what its aimed at.

???

So a small group can magically cap a tower/keep faster than a small group therefore small group = advantage over zerg ? I am amazed but AC defender replies .I really am.

Yes a small group can cap things with out the other team knowing for a full 30 sec you can nearly take down a door so from the point of view of the other team a small group is getting though doors faster then a zerg that show up as oranges swords.

graverr.6473:

Xsorus.2507:

Lets see if I understand this right..

Before the patch, a group of 50 people comes up on a defended keep with arrowcarts, with say 20 defenders….

They blow through the keep and take it because 20 people with ArrowCarts couldn’t do squat against 50 people.

Now the 50 people are dying and are kind of mad they can’t take a defended keep anymore as easily as before?

Also the whole “Well small mans are screwed cause they can’t take a Supply camp with someone defending with and arrow cart”

That is a load of horsekitten by zergers who are mad they can’t out zerg people anymore.

I small man all the time, I solo all the time, I can safely say if you have an arrow cart in a Supply camp I’ll run in and kill you before you can kill me with an Arrow Cart, hell as a ranger i can send my pet in and he’ll kill you or the siege weapon and you’ll not be able to do squat about it (the guards won’t help you)

I’m sorry you guys can’t bum rush defended keeps anymore with massive numbers and take it…I’m sorry you’ll have to rethink your strategy, but don’t try and use Small Mans and Solo’s as an excuse to nerf Arrow Carts because you want to be a Sea of Bad and throw yourself against a defended gate.

Whaaa? So 20 defenders can’t build 4 or 5 superior arrow carts to defend against 50 ppl before tha patch? Really? I believe what you were experiencing was a chronic symptom of terrible defensive tactics.

Superiors didn’t do enough damage to stop a 50 man zerg before the patch.

I can safely say that in a zerg i’ve never been killed by a bunch of arrow carts shooting me prepatch.

The only thing that ended up killing me in a zerg before the patch was a bigger zerg.

Xsorus.2507:

Whaaa? So 20 defenders can’t build 4 or 5 superior arrow carts to defend against 50 ppl before tha patch? Really? I believe what you were experiencing was a chronic symptom of terrible defensive tactics.

Superiors didn’t do enough damage to stop a 50 man zerg before the patch.

I can safely say that in a zerg i’ve never been killed by a bunch of arrow carts shooting me prepatch.

The only thing that ended up killing me in a zerg before the patch was a bigger zerg.

[/quote]

8 months of exclusive videos of arrow carts zerg meltdown begs to differ..You can found them all on youtube.But nice try.

Xsorus.2507:

Lets see if I understand this right..

Before the patch, a group of 50 people comes up on a defended keep with arrowcarts, with say 20 defenders….

They blow through the keep and take it because 20 people with ArrowCarts couldn’t do squat against 50 people.

Now the 50 people are dying and are kind of mad they can’t take a defended keep anymore as easily as before?

Also the whole “Well small mans are screwed cause they can’t take a Supply camp with someone defending with and arrow cart”

That is a load of horsekitten by zergers who are mad they can’t out zerg people anymore.

I small man all the time, I solo all the time, I can safely say if you have an arrow cart in a Supply camp I’ll run in and kill you before you can kill me with an Arrow Cart, hell as a ranger i can send my pet in and he’ll kill you or the siege weapon and you’ll not be able to do squat about it (the guards won’t help you)

I’m sorry you guys can’t bum rush defended keeps anymore with massive numbers and take it…I’m sorry you’ll have to rethink your strategy, but don’t try and use Small Mans and Solo’s as an excuse to nerf Arrow Carts because you want to be a Sea of Bad and throw yourself against a defended gate.

Your numbers are broken. I’ve seen golem rushes and huge zergs melted and pushed away many times by three people on regular arrow carts.

Update: If you were never killed by such a thing I can only assume that either your experience is not expansive enough to have really experienced WvW, or your commanders were smart enough to pull you away.

Damage on arrow carts has never been sub-optimal. It never even occurred to me that they needed any change at all.

Make arrow carts do 0 damage to rams. I can deal with circles. I don’t think it’s for the good of the game to make rams useless.

Jski.6180:

Yes a small group can cap things with out the other team knowing for a full 30 sec you can nearly take down a door so from the point of view of the other team a small group is getting though doors faster then a zerg that show up as oranges swords.[/quote]

Nope.
1. Scouts
2.Since when the orrange swords can’t be controlled ?

WvW is dead for small groups .Alive for semi/afk ac sitters only.

To ALL people that said defence was underpowered or at a disadvantage before I must say that you were making some mistakes then. It was very much doable to hold of enemies that severely outnumbered you. It required a little bit of skill and coordination. 30 vs 100 while defending a keep was not unheard of nor was it unlikely that the group of 30 would win. Arrowcarts were often used in these defences because they were very effective.

That was back when skill and coordination were rewarded with results. Now the game caters to bad tactics and lazy players. The arrowcart buff rewards zerging and discourages pvp encounters and action.

graverr.6473:

Nope.
1. Scouts
2.Since when the orrange swords can’t be controlled ?

WvW is dead for small groups .Alive for semi/afk ac sitters only.

So because the other team is playing “better” means that small groups are dead? Because your saying that if the other team has scouts looking for for small groups then they know some one may be coming BUT they need to have these scouts for small groups only because zergs show up as oranges swords. You try to control a zerg of 25+ its bad and nearly imposable.
That the thing WvW is not handed to you like in pve there no boss with a trick there no mobs with there set AI its fighting real humans. These humans can think comply different from you and do very random things. This is the truth of stand box games a lot like in WvW for GW2. If you cant deal with trying to work out new points of attk then i think your not going to do well in the coming set of games because they are all going sand box you got to start thinking i am sry.

@Caliban.3176
So now that a few ppl can kill many ppl means its more zerg friendly? Do you even try to think about what your saying?

Caliban.3176:

To ALL people that said defence was underpowered or at a disadvantage before I must say that you were making some mistakes then. It was very much doable to hold of enemies that severely outnumbered you. It required a little bit of skill and coordination. 30 vs 100 while defending a keep was not unheard of nor was it unlikely that the group of 30 would win. Arrowcarts were often used in these defences because they were very effective.

That was back when skill and coordination were rewarded with results. Now the game caters to bad tactics and lazy players. The arrowcart buff rewards zerging and discourages pvp encounters and action.

The game catered to bad tactics and lazy player before. If you had a zerg ball you could shove a bunch of rams or/and golems under a rain of AOE and still take down a door. You could use horrible cata and treb spots and still take down a gate/wall. Now you actually have to make good use of siege. What is apparent in this thread is that very few people know how to do that.

Jski.6180:

@Caliban.3176
So now that a few ppl can kill many ppl means its more zerg friendly? Do you even try to think about what your saying?

I understand why you’d think that, it is a little counterintuitive but try thinking like this.

Now it has become a lot harder to mount a decent siege because defenders are now overpowered with arrowcarts. So 10ppl teams have way less use because it is harder for them to do anything.

It is also a lot harder for the big zerg, but it is easier for a zerg than it’ll be for a small team.

So it just became harder for small teams and harder for zergs but zergs still don’t have it as hard as small teams. Therefore zergs are still better than small teams. It even scales up beyond that. It used to be doable for 50 pugs to take a keep from 25 pugs. Now it is hardly doable for 50 pugs to take it from 25 pugs. It is however doable still for 75+ pugs to take a keep from 25 pugs. Thus it encourages even bigger pug zergs.

I am going to try and not respond to this thread for a while unless anyone actually brings up new arguments in favor of this patch. I have read some arguments that make it sound positive in that niche situation but overall the AC buff is still obviously bad for the game.

Jski.6180:

graverr.6473:

Nope.
1. Scouts
2.Since when the orrange swords can’t be controlled ?

WvW is dead for small groups .Alive for semi/afk ac sitters only.

So because the other team is playing “better” means that small groups are dead? Because your saying that if the other team has scouts looking for for small groups then they know some one may be coming BUT they need to have these scouts for small groups only because zergs show up as oranges swords. You try to control a zerg of 25+ its bad and nearly imposable.
That the thing WvW is not handed to you like in pve there no boss with a trick there no mobs with there set AI its fighting real humans. These humans can think comply different from you and do very random things. This is the truth of stand box games a lot like in WvW for GW2. If you cant deal with trying to work out new points of attk then i think your not going to do well in the coming set of games because they are all going sand box you got to start thinking i am sry.

@Caliban.3176
So now that a few ppl can kill many ppl means its more zerg friendly? Do you even try to think about what your saying?

because you need a larger zerg to provide more ‘meat shield’ when attacking places like Lord Room of Hills, SMC, or garrison.

Sureshot.6725:

Caedmon.6798:

1170 posts..Not one reply….Anet are you serious ? You don’t want to talk with us about how to possibly still turn this into a good thing with a few changes ? Keep going your own way and ignore your community hoping the problem will solve itself in time and people get used to it…?

With the total lack of communication with Your community,about basically everything from the constant disconnects people are getting since the last patch,and no word from Anet…This thread reaching so many posts and not a word from Anet.
Do you care about your customers ?

Maybe it’s because 1170 posts represent 0.11% out of a million players.

Maybe it’s because they realize that out of the 1170 there isn’t consensus at all about the effects of the change. Some like it and some don’t.

Maybe it’s because they realize most players are actually taking the time to experience and properly evaluate the changes before claiming the sky is falling.

Maybe it’s because they are rational and patient and wan’t to look at actual data over time rather then the emotionally driven responses of forum warriors.

Maybe they realize it is waste of their valuable time to respond to knee jerk forum reactions until they actually have some data and have some time to evaluate that data so they can make a reasoned response.

I’ve yet to see anyone complain about the arrow cart changes in game and everyone still seems to be having a grand time.

Not saying that changes and tweaks to the ACs are not needed as they may be, but can we at least go one week and give them a fair chance before asking for changes.

Also it would be wise to drop the insults that ANet doesn’t care, doesn’t communicate, or is to dumb to understand their own game as that doesn’t help your case especially since it is coming from wanna-be developers that have never actually developed or created anything except posts on a forum.

^ THIS!!!

You, sir/madam, just won +1 internetz.

Heijincks.9267:

Factor in that practically 50% of the anti-arrow cart posts in this thread are from VoTF members.

couldn’t resist.
7% of posts are mine

yw

The AC changes may be too much and even may be hurting the game, but can we at least give it a little bit more time to properly evaluate the situation?

Lets take this one at a time.

@Caliban.3176
So the idea of when things become harder for zerg makes things harder for small group is true to a point but when you have small group you can hit more then one places at a time. Where a zerg can only hit one target at a time. In effect its how you want to brake down you power do you want to put it into one push on one target or do you want to put it on more then one target knowing that you will fail on a few of them but you still can make ground on the others. This chose should be in the game and this chose is also related to defining too.

@Kript.3291
So “Lord Room of Hills, SMC, or garrison” should not be easy targets to take if the other team brings a full zerg on you then you will need one too if its just a small group trying to hid behind there lords its more on the attkers who are failing to take out the real targets (the players) if they cant take the room. These things should not be flipped with a pure PvD and just as fast. These are major points for both sides of the fights because its not just a 10 point lost its a 20 point changes and that IS what wvw is about the points. No one is going to hold any thing forever and things are planed out that way but at the same time there is no reason to hold something for less then 5 mins.

Major point i need to add in not related to the post i am responding to. WvW in GW2 is not purely about on the ground fights they are fun but they do nothing to win or lose a week its about WvW weapons and supple movement. Like in real war if you can cut supplies you can win a war. This is not PvP this is WvW nearly a war simulator. If your looking for on the ground fights your in the wrong places.

Don’t see an issue, now you Can’t cluster in one spot and “Stack”.

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.

How many of those 50 have means to be attacking properly positioned carts?

All of them. Back away from the gate, build a treb, destroy the arrow carts, return to the gate, build your rams, capture the tower, and carry on as usual. Your unwillingness to change your tactics in the face of the patch does not mean the patch is broken. It simply means you refuse to adapt and learn new tactics for accomplishing your goal.

And before you or anyone responds, “But we can’t reach every cart with treb fire! It’s impossible! AC is so OP!!!”, let me stop you right there. Any comment to that effect tells me immediately that the responder’s definition of a siege is to spam auto-attack at the gate and doesn’t know how to use anything other than a ram.

Learn to use the tools available to you. Practice setting up some siege weapons, test their ranges, test their firing arcs, test their blast radius, and discover their ideal placement. Do these things, and you can reach any location that a defender could build an AC that presents a threat to you.

Refuse to do these things by claiming it takes too long or is boring doesn’t equal a broken mechanic. It equals a player who is unwilling to adapt, change, or learn and unwilling to accept that their previous strategy won’t work anymore or won’t work as effectively as it once did.

Heijincks.9267:

Factor in that practically 50% of the anti-arrow cart posts in this thread are from VoTF members.

After 5 minutes spent with Ctrl+F, I can tell you that 193 of 1316 posts are from around half a dozen VoTF members. And that’s only the VoTF members that advertise it in their signature…

It makes it pretty clear that this thread does not represent the opinion of the greater WvW community, and is nothing but a campaign run by a small group of posters to get their way.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.

How many of those 50 have means to be attacking properly positioned carts?

All of them. Back away from the gate, build a treb, destroy the arrow carts, return to the gate, build your rams, capture the tower, and carry on as usual. Your unwillingness to change your tactics in the face of the patch does not mean the patch is broken. It simply means you refuse to adapt and learn new tactics for accomplishing your goal.

And before you or anyone responds, “But we can’t reach every cart with treb fire! It’s impossible! AC is so OP!!!”, let me stop you right there. Any comment to that effect tells me immediately that the responder’s definition of a siege is to spam auto-attack at the gate and doesn’t know how to use anything other than a ram.

Learn to use the tools available to you. Practice setting up some siege weapons, test their ranges, test their firing arcs, test their blast radius, and discover their ideal placement. Do these things, and you can reach any location that a defender could build an AC that presents a threat to you.

Refuse to do these things by claiming it takes too long or is boring doesn’t equal a broken mechanic. It equals a player who is unwilling to adapt, change, or learn and unwilling to accept that their previous strategy won’t work anymore or won’t work as effectively as it once did.

I can easily show anyone at least 20 spots in any tower where acs CAN’T BE HIT by trebs or outer siege.Argument invalid.Telling ppl to l2 siege while you lack in very important knowledge about is pretty funny.

Caliban.3176:

Jski.6180:

@Caliban.3176
So now that a few ppl can kill many ppl means its more zerg friendly? Do you even try to think about what your saying?

I understand why you’d think that, it is a little counterintuitive but try thinking like this.

Now it has become a lot harder to mount a decent siege because defenders are now overpowered with arrowcarts. So 10ppl teams have way less use because it is harder for them to do anything.

It is also a lot harder for the big zerg, but it is easier for a zerg than it’ll be for a small team.

So it just became harder for small teams and harder for zergs but zergs still don’t have it as hard as small teams. Therefore zergs are still better than small teams. It even scales up beyond that. It used to be doable for 50 pugs to take a keep from 25 pugs. Now it is hardly doable for 50 pugs to take it from 25 pugs. It is however doable still for 75+ pugs to take a keep from 25 pugs. Thus it encourages even bigger pug zergs.

I am going to try and not respond to this thread for a while unless anyone actually brings up new arguments in favor of this patch. I have read some arguments that make it sound positive in that niche situation but overall the AC buff is still obviously bad for the game.

The role of a small team is not to take keeps and towers, but supply camps and dolyaks. So the efficiency of small groups was effectively buffed in this patch with the new supervisor.

And not only that, now it takes a lot more supply to take down a enemy structure. Giant zergs are very slow and inefficient at resupplying, making it necessary to split up the zerg.

So, now, if want to take a keep, it’s a battle of managing your supply, and trying to prevent your enemies from getting it. Which is, in my opinion, a much more interesting meta than zerg balling everything.

Jski.6180:

Lets take this one at a time.

@Caliban.3176
So the idea of when things become harder for zerg makes things harder for small group is true to a point but when you have small group you can hit more then one places at a time. Where a zerg can only hit one target at a time. In effect its how you want to brake down you power do you want to put it into one push on one target or do you want to put it on more then one target knowing that you will fail on a few of them but you still can make ground on the others. This chose should be in the game and this chose is also related to defining too.

@Kript.3291
So “Lord Room of Hills, SMC, or garrison” should not be easy targets to take if the other team brings a full zerg on you then you will need one too if its just a small group trying to hid behind there lords its more on the attkers who are failing to take out the real targets (the players) if they cant take the room. These things should not be flipped with a pure PvD and just as fast. These are major points for both sides of the fights because its not just a 10 point lost its a 20 point changes and that IS what wvw is about the points. No one is going to hold any thing forever and things are planed out that way but at the same time there is no reason to hold something for less then 5 mins.

Major point i need to add in not related to the post i am responding to. WvW in GW2 is not purely about on the ground fights they are fun but they do nothing to win or lose a week its about WvW weapons and supple movement. Like in real war if you can cut supplies you can win a war. This is not PvP this is WvW nearly a war simulator. If your looking for on the ground fights your in the wrong places.

Let’s see if I can do this without upsetting the kids this time. So we have people that want PvP in WvW and then we have people that want to stand there in one spot shooting at a door/wall/what have you all day.

I don’t really see how this is even a decision.

Aeonblade.8709:

Jski.6180:

Lets take this one at a time.

@Caliban.3176
So the idea of when things become harder for zerg makes things harder for small group is true to a point but when you have small group you can hit more then one places at a time. Where a zerg can only hit one target at a time. In effect its how you want to brake down you power do you want to put it into one push on one target or do you want to put it on more then one target knowing that you will fail on a few of them but you still can make ground on the others. This chose should be in the game and this chose is also related to defining too.

@Kript.3291
So “Lord Room of Hills, SMC, or garrison” should not be easy targets to take if the other team brings a full zerg on you then you will need one too if its just a small group trying to hid behind there lords its more on the attkers who are failing to take out the real targets (the players) if they cant take the room. These things should not be flipped with a pure PvD and just as fast. These are major points for both sides of the fights because its not just a 10 point lost its a 20 point changes and that IS what wvw is about the points. No one is going to hold any thing forever and things are planed out that way but at the same time there is no reason to hold something for less then 5 mins.

Major point i need to add in not related to the post i am responding to. WvW in GW2 is not purely about on the ground fights they are fun but they do nothing to win or lose a week its about WvW weapons and supple movement. Like in real war if you can cut supplies you can win a war. This is not PvP this is WvW nearly a war simulator. If your looking for on the ground fights your in the wrong places.

Let’s see if I can do this without upsetting the kids this time. So we have people that want PvP in WvW and then we have people that want to stand there in one spot shooting at a door/wall/what have you all day.
I don’t really see how this is even a decision.

Basically this, only without the biting sarcasm and condescending attitude.

When ANet puts a Team Deathmatch mode into sPvP a lot of the complaints here will go away. Many have already said plainly that they’d be fine if all siege were removed from WvW because they find open field battles fun and protracted siege fights boring. Unfortunately, GW2 doesn’t have a game mode to really cater to these people right now. It’s either Defend the Keep/Camp in WvW or Defend the Node in sPvP.

Jski.6180:

Lets take this one at a time.

@Caliban.3176
So the idea of when things become harder for zerg makes things harder for small group is true to a point but when you have small group you can hit more then one places at a time. Where a zerg can only hit one target at a time. In effect its how you want to brake down you power do you want to put it into one push on one target or do you want to put it on more then one target knowing that you will fail on a few of them but you still can make ground on the others. This chose should be in the game and this chose is also related to defining too.

I like this, this is a decent conversation.

Yes you are right you can split your forces easily. The problem that arises however is that the balance between defenders and attackers is so skewed now that it is likely that each tower any of your small groups go to will have defenders that are capable of holding back your small group. Let’s take EB

I’ll make an example using completely fictional servers and for the sake of simplicity one of those servers decides not to engage in the fights and they have SM.
If by a coincidence any server name relates to a real server, then I’m very sorry, it definitely wasn’t intended that way.
so you have 1 server called Seafarer’s Rest and they have a very strong guild presence, let’s call them SFR for short
And there is another server called Vizunah Square, they are great nightcappers and can mobilize pugs like no others therefore they blob like no others as well
the third server that doesn’t participate is called Elona’s Reach.

(don’t ask me where I got these names, I just have a very vivid imagination)

Both SFR and Vizu have 90 ppl

SFR sends out 4 groups of 10 and 1 of 20 they each attack a tower and the larger group attacks the keep
They also keep 2 players in every tower and 5 players in the keep
That leaves 17 people, 5 of those have fun flipping camps and 12 of those idiots go to JP

Vizu keeps 3 defenders in every tower and 6 in the keep (that’s 18 defenders)
they have 5 people flipping camps, and 12 in the jp
that leaves them with 1 big blob of 55players

What happens if they start playing? Those 3 defenders vizu has in every tower can keep the small parties that sfr sounds out away and the other 6 have no problem defending the keep

But on the SFR side what happens is that when the 55+ blob attacks, the 2 players ask for reinforcements and about 6 go ahead to help defend, 3 of those make it inside. So SFR is attacking with an numbers advantage of X5 but vizunah is attacking with a big blob that has a numbers advantage of X11. The new arrowcarts may be very strong but even they have their limits.

Let’s try to reexamine that and make the arrowcarts less strong. With arrowcarts being less strong what would happen is that the SFR teams of 10 would have a 50-50 chance of getting in. So vizu would lose at least 2 towers and maybe even a keep. SFR however has a 100% chance to lose 1 tower and maybe even another, depending on how coordinated their defense is.

That is how I see it. That is why these arrowcarts kill small groups more than they kill zergs.

I am drunk now so I’ll stick to reading for a bit

Imho they should just raise the supplies neeeded to build an AC. And maybe lower their damage by 30%.

Mif.3471:

Heijincks.9267:

Factor in that practically 50% of the anti-arrow cart posts in this thread are from VoTF members.

After 5 minutes spent with Ctrl+F, I can tell you that 193 of 1316 posts are from around half a dozen VoTF members. And that’s only the VoTF members that advertise it in their signature…

It makes it pretty clear that this thread does not represent the opinion of the greater WvW community, and is nothing but a campaign run by a small group of posters to get their way.

Perhaps VoTF is sitting on a pile of now useless golems?

Raf.1078:

Mif.3471:

Heijincks.9267:

Factor in that practically 50% of the anti-arrow cart posts in this thread are from VoTF members.

After 5 minutes spent with Ctrl+F, I can tell you that 193 of 1316 posts are from around half a dozen VoTF members. And that’s only the VoTF members that advertise it in their signature…

It makes it pretty clear that this thread does not represent the opinion of the greater WvW community, and is nothing but a campaign run by a small group of posters to get their way.

Perhaps VoTF is sitting on a pile of now useless golems?

Funny but we hardly ever used golems. We prefer using hammers and swords and daggers and even foci. That’s just how we roll.

So, now, if want to take a keep, it’s a battle of managing your supply, and trying to prevent your enemies from getting it. Which is, in my opinion, a much more interesting meta than zerg balling everything.

So basicly if a server only has 10 ppl online and are outmanned at night they just shouldn’t cap anything at all right ?/ log off FTW. Or sit on an Ac waiting for the zerg to come to them. Great fun

@ Caliban.3176
kitten long post going to take me a bit to look at it all lol.

The first point what Anet came out and said they wanted ppl to brake up there forces or at least adding in a reason to brake up so if the attking team is attking every point on a map at once the other team the defining team must chose to make sure every thing is defend to a point or hold the major points. If your aim as the defending team to hold every point that you currently have means you will be unable to take any points from the other team. Also the attking team can “starve” out the defending team because of supplies camps. Now that you can no longer block treb and cata shots you cant passively hide in towers and keeps you must get out and attk leading to more on the ground combat (that you guys seem to love).

For you situation:
The thing is if the attking team lets the defining team to dig into there keeps and towers (letting them make full upgraded walls and doors) you will have a hard time getting into though keeps and towers for the attking team. Part of WvW is to hit and run on keeps and towers and run them out over time.
Things like SM are major points to contort not just because of the 15 points per tick but the ability to hit and defined other targets. Its the center point in the map if it was a camp every one would still want it.
As for night caping that just the way it is Anet cant cut off the game for a world if they have no presents during a “night” time (night is different for different ppl). The rank of world will even out in time and some times we will find that some worlds are too high in rank or too low in rank. This is more of a short term problem then a long term problem.

I have no idea if i answered your question your tarn of though is confusing at best i am not sure if you aimed it to be so or you just added in more as you went along.

graverr.6473:

I can easily show anyone at least 20 spots in any tower where acs CAN’T BE HIT by trebs or outer siege.Argument invalid.Telling ppl to l2 siege while you lack in very important knowledge about is pretty funny.

There is no invulnerable siege in this game. If you don’t know how to take it down it is just your own lack of knowledge and not the game’s fault.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

All of them. Back away from the gate, build a treb, destroy the arrow carts, return to the gate, build your rams, capture the tower, and carry on as usual.

Stop right here.

You’re assuming that a ram is always going to be the optimal solution for breaking in, while completely ignoring the impact catapults would have. And I’m not talking about the situation where people build at range zero for a quick break. With ACs now having a range extension based on traits, this now potentially puts normally well placed catapults in jeopardy. Positions that were perfectly fine before now have to be extensively retested.

Your post also ignores the fact that the defensive poisition may also have a treb of their own. If the defensive position spots the treb, they have first shot. If not enough supply is contributed to the treb in time, first shot could become multiple shots. Also keep in mind that treb shots are now unblockable, so prior strategy involving Elementalists, Guardians and Rogues will no longer save you.

The rest of your post is a series of strawmen and aren’t even worth the time it would take to burn them to the ground.

Jski.6180:

@ Caliban.3176

For you situation:
The thing is if the attking team lets the defining team to dig into there keeps and towers (letting them make full upgraded walls and doors) you will have a hard time getting into though keeps and towers for the attking team. Part of WvW is to hit and run on keeps and towers and run them out over time.

I agree with this. But this patch has changed that, now you defending teams are more digged in the second they build an arrowcart. It is also a lot harder to do hit and runs because you basically need a treb to do that as that is the only good way to get the arrowcarts down. Using an arrowcart yourself won’t work because with the added damage they will destroy your blueprint very fast and the arrowcart in the tower always has the jump on the one down on the ground.

I think what is very important to remember is that everything before the patch was already perfect for what it seems like you want WvW to be. And this arrowcart buff does not take any step towards splitting up people.

graverr.6473:

I can easily show anyone at least 20 spots in any tower where acs CAN’T BE HIT by trebs or outer siege.Argument invalid.Telling ppl to l2 siege while you lack in very important knowledge about is pretty funny.

There is no invulnerable siege in this game. If you don’t know how to take it down it is just your own lack of knowledge and not the game’s fault.

NO.There are spots where siege cannot hit due to towers arhitecture and angles.Your lack of knowledge about this still continues to be outstanding.People on your server actually you as commander ?No wonder you support the easymode ac buffs that reduce the ammount of strategies to just 1.And you have the nerv to call the rest of us unable to adapt .Unbelievable.

graverr.6473:

I can easily show anyone at least 20 spots in any tower where acs CAN’T BE HIT by trebs or outer siege.Argument invalid.Telling ppl to l2 siege while you lack in very important knowledge about is pretty funny.

There is no invulnerable siege in this game. If you don’t know how to take it down it is just your own lack of knowledge and not the game’s fault.

Yes I can also build 6 arrowcarts in SM and you would need at least 3 trebs to take them all down. Not very balanced if you ask me.

graverr.6473:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Jski.6180:

If you have 50 ppl standing still and not attking the carts them self i think they should die and not be able to take a keep. Do you think attking should be a guaranteed win? If any thing this IS the zerg counter that every one has been asking for.

How many of those 50 have means to be attacking properly positioned carts?

All of them. Back away from the gate, build a treb, destroy the arrow carts, return to the gate, build your rams, capture the tower, and carry on as usual. Your unwillingness to change your tactics in the face of the patch does not mean the patch is broken. It simply means you refuse to adapt and learn new tactics for accomplishing your goal.

And before you or anyone responds, “But we can’t reach every cart with treb fire! It’s impossible! AC is so OP!!!”, let me stop you right there. Any comment to that effect tells me immediately that the responder’s definition of a siege is to spam auto-attack at the gate and doesn’t know how to use anything other than a ram.

Learn to use the tools available to you. Practice setting up some siege weapons, test their ranges, test their firing arcs, test their blast radius, and discover their ideal placement. Do these things, and you can reach any location that a defender could build an AC that presents a threat to you.

Refuse to do these things by claiming it takes too long or is boring doesn’t equal a broken mechanic. It equals a player who is unwilling to adapt, change, or learn and unwilling to accept that their previous strategy won’t work anymore or won’t work as effectively as it once did.

I can easily show anyone at least 20 spots in any tower where acs CAN’T BE HIT by trebs or outer siege.Argument invalid.Telling ppl to l2 siege while you lack in very important knowledge about is pretty funny.

Then let’s put it to the test. List these spots and I’ll demonstrate if they can be hit or not.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Then let’s put it to the test. List these spots and I’ll demonstrate if they can be hit or not.

No need too .I am not giving siege lessons for free like that .L2p before pretending you know how to siege.If less players were like you we wouldn’t be finding WvW in this embarrasing situation.

its been a few days and Anet hasn’t posted an official response.
it can’t be too hard, kitten my little sister could do it.

“we are sorry, we are working on a solution”

hearing that would let me know the genius’ read the topic.

graverr.6473:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Then let’s put it to the test. List these spots and I’ll demonstrate if they can be hit or not.

No need too .I am not giving siege lessons for free like that .L2p before pretending you know how to siege.If less players were like you we wouldn’t be finding WvW in this embarrasing situation.

I will gladly show how to take down the ACs you are having trouble with.

PredatoR.5247:

its been a few days and Anet hasn’t posted an official response.
it can’t be too hard, kitten my little sister could do it.

“we are sorry, we are working on a solution”

hearing that would let me know the genius’ read the topic.

It may well be because they are seeing how it affects the game? I mean, I think they need to tone down either range or damage but how or to what degree I’m not quite sure yet.

Vena.8436:

PredatoR.5247:

its been a few days and Anet hasn’t posted an official response.
it can’t be too hard, kitten my little sister could do it.

“we are sorry, we are working on a solution”

hearing that would let me know the genius’ read the topic.

It may well be because they are seeing how it affects the game? I mean, I think they need to tone down either range or damage but how or to what degree I’m not quite sure yet.

As much as I like the changes, I think increasing the supply necessary to build a AC and toning down a bit the range are totally comprehensible nerfs.

Arrow carts needed a buff, but this is overkill.

I’m quite happy about this.. I can finally solo zergs with my trusty sidekick Arrowcartman.

As much as I like the changes, I think increasing the supply necessary to build a AC and toning down a bit the range are totally comprehensible nerfs.

I’m thinking somewhere along the lines of half of the buffed range from the perk, so that they can’t reach max-range catas on flat terrain. Put superiors at 60 supply, keep regulars as they are since they aren’t nearly as much of an issue.

I think the biggest problem is in the supply, the jump is too small for the benefit (and probably the case for balista as well when paired with AC).