Guild Wars 2

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Lance.5892:

or this:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/66817/carts.jpg

Now put that at the most effective choke point: Lord Room corridor.

Man, that three way with AR and BP could have turned out a whole lot worse.

pretty much, every part of getting into hills was a headache before patch, and now patch its worse.

And people give you the treb bull that doesnt work because of the amount of untoucheable counter treb positions within hills

graverr.6473:

Defending against a big zerg was completely doable before patch.Happened every day and it was perfectly easy for 10 players to defend a tower against 60 for 2- 3 hours.The only difference was that the defenders had to actually use or posess a brain instead of just droping an arrowcart and completely negate 90% of possible tactics.Now is treb or gtfo.
IF you have a large zerg trebs won’t be a problem.However if you only have a 10 – 15 man group you can aswell log off cuz u wont be seeing any action except flipping camps every 10 minutes.
Terrible change for anyone that does not run a 60 man blob and completely gamebreaking for small teams to groups consisting up to 4-5 parties.

This is what I don’t understand about the people supporting this change, most of which keep mentioning “karmatrains” and “zergs”. The people this change has hurt the most are those who run in small groups.

Ours for example, 10-15 people at the moment, will struggle to have any substantial impact because of this. Before, we’d be able to hit a tower with rams and more often than not cap the thing or come close to capping it before the main enemy zerg would come to defend it. This was our role, hit towers quickly to either cap them or distract the enemy away from our main force. It’s what we enjoy doing, but frankly will struggle to do anymore because now just 2 people with arrow carts can pretty much take us out or at least destroy our rams before they’ve even been built. “Build catas or trebs”, yes because that’s so much fun… We’ve been pretty much relegated to flipping camps at best and even those are being covered by arrow carts.

It is encouraging zerg play, not splitting up the zerg as so many people continue to try and say.

I´m prepared for the future

its a really big joke that no anet member even answers to all this posts

AC’s will have to be changed back or toned significantly back down. Right now it’s just kitten ridiculous.

scanz.4536:

It is encouraging zerg play, not splitting up the zerg as so many people continue to try and say.

I’d argue that it’s encouraging “no play” more than anything.

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

Try a superior AC.
2.5 – 3K damage => 3 carts kill a golem in 15 seconds, a ram in 7-8…

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

dzeRnumbrd.6129:

If a karma train can’t take your tower then what chance does a guild special ops/havoc team have.

None, and that’s as it should be. A fortified and defended tower should be a major defensive asset for the home BL. A fortified keep should be a tremendous challenge to take, and it should hurt.

The ability to “ninja” a fortified structure was one of the dumbest things in the game, and only little karma addicts are crying over this change.

Wrong, once a server nightcaps all of your stuff you will not get it back. the week is decided on reset night. We were slowly gaining in points until the change went into effect right after we had been night capped, now there is no way to take anything back. They need to really increase the matches to a month if they really want us to take days to get a keep back.

The many towers and keeps SoR has retaken (and lost and retaken and lost again) since the patch was introduced would beg to differ with you.

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

What server are you on, if you can organise an entire map then let us know, we will take you up on that.

I’m on SoR; enjoy the ridiculous queues. Now THERE is something Anet should be focusing on. =((((

AC should do no damage to other siege weapons. At least with the #1 attack.

Either that or the buff should only happen when outmanned.

The cheapest piece of siege SHOULD be one of the weakest and certainly not able to counter almost any offensive tactic.

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

I’m exceedingly confident, actually. We have a handful of pretty atrocious commanders (from a strategic and not tactical point of view) on SoR, and yet they do surprisingly well, even if the best plan they can come up with is “Let them have it we’ll just flip it back later”.

Lance.5892:

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Breytes.6901:

I ran my overly squishy thief in WvW for several hours last night and I did not die to a single arrow cart the entire time.

Shh. Arrow carts are massively overpowered now. One player with an arrow cart can defend garrison by himself now.

What you guys don’t get is 1 or 2 Ac’s are fine and maybe that is all you run into in yur tier. I wonder how many T3 towers/keeps Fractalchaos took while not dying to an AC. The problem is in my tier it is rare that there are less than 6+ AC’s at every entrance. That many Ac’s with everyone on them trated for range is rediculous, you cant even put up a cata. The range is too much matched with the buff.

heres an example:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=84e315-1367347752.jpg
or this:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/66817/carts.jpg

You do realize if you treb those spots, even if your treb gets destroyed by counter trebbing, you’ve lost 100 supplies and they just lost 150-200?

MagnusLL.8473:

Lance.5892:

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Breytes.6901:

I ran my overly squishy thief in WvW for several hours last night and I did not die to a single arrow cart the entire time.

Shh. Arrow carts are massively overpowered now. One player with an arrow cart can defend garrison by himself now.

What you guys don’t get is 1 or 2 Ac’s are fine and maybe that is all you run into in yur tier. I wonder how many T3 towers/keeps Fractalchaos took while not dying to an AC. The problem is in my tier it is rare that there are less than 6+ AC’s at every entrance. That many Ac’s with everyone on them trated for range is rediculous, you cant even put up a cata. The range is too much matched with the buff.

heres an example:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=84e315-1367347752.jpg
or this:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/66817/carts.jpg

You do realize if you treb those spots, even if your treb gets destroyed by counter trebbing, you’ve lost 100 supplies and they just lost 150-200?

who cares, did you get into hills? are you going to get into hills? the answer is no.

reason why?

broken mechanics such as waypointing to other maps, taking their supply, and coming back. also using breakout events to fully supply 70-80 people and returning with several hundred supply

MagnusLL.8473:

Lance.5892:

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Breytes.6901:

I ran my overly squishy thief in WvW for several hours last night and I did not die to a single arrow cart the entire time.

Shh. Arrow carts are massively overpowered now. One player with an arrow cart can defend garrison by himself now.

What you guys don’t get is 1 or 2 Ac’s are fine and maybe that is all you run into in yur tier. I wonder how many T3 towers/keeps Fractalchaos took while not dying to an AC. The problem is in my tier it is rare that there are less than 6+ AC’s at every entrance. That many Ac’s with everyone on them trated for range is rediculous, you cant even put up a cata. The range is too much matched with the buff.

heres an example:
http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=84e315-1367347752.jpg
or this:
https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/66817/carts.jpg

You do realize if you treb those spots, even if your treb gets destroyed by counter trebbing, you’ve lost 100 supplies and they just lost 150-200?

That keep had 1700 supply and my guess is thier garrison is full of supply too. This equals hours and hours of being able to rebuild at least 6+ of those AC’s and counter trebs. They only have to hit an attacking treb a few times to destroy it. The attackers have to hit the wall 50+ times? So rebuilding that treb to take down the keep wall 20 to 30 times to get a wall down lol

FractalChaos.6539:

TyrDaishi.1057:

FractalChaos.6539:

sostronk.8167:

“…they have tunnel vision and the karma train mentality built into them…”

Thank you. My faith in the average gamer is moderately restored. It’s nice to see someone grasps the real problem here. The real reason behind the griping is that “MY KARMA AND WXP PER MINUTE IS OFF BY 12.731% NOW ANET SUXXORZZZ!! I WANT MY FAST EASY KARMA BACK!!!”

There is not one of the many well known and respected Guilds that Caliban and I mentioned caring for wxp or karma.

You are missing the point of what we are trying to say.

We want WvW to be hard, we want WvW to be a gamemode where you need to work hard to achieve something. We are just not satisfied with the methodes that where used to do so.

One of the many reasons is that there are literally hundreds of suggestions made in these very forums to bring a better experience for all gamers in guild Wars 2, which are getting ignored so far. And keep in mind that the suggestions vary from 1vs1 to a full out large scale battle 100 vs 100 vs 100.

I’m not a big fan of the cult of personality that seems to spring up in videogames. I never heard of those guilds you mentioned, and I don’t care in any case. Their thoughts and opinions are no more important than anyone else’s. More than 3/4 of the time, clashes with this or that “uber skilled WvW guild” in the open field culminate with the realization that they’re pretty kitten ordinary.

They’re just really good at PR.

It’s not about whether you like us or think we are good. It’s that you were wrong about the way you judged us.

And even if you think we are ordinary our opinion still matters, just as much as yours does. But these guilds usually have a lot of experience in the game so it is likely they might know what they talk about. It gives people a framework to put those posts in. It also shows numbers. These guilds range from anywhere between 20 to 300 members (though most probably float around 100 active members with peaks of online members of about 50-60)

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

What server are you on, if you can organise an entire map then let us know, we will take you up on that.

I’m on SoR; enjoy the ridiculous queues. Now THERE is something Anet should be focusing on. =((((

Ok, we’ve beaten 100 SoR’s already, we can do it again.

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

Few things are ever sure, I grant you that completely. I could be 100% wrong about this (although I really, really sincerely doubt it). That’s the fun of it, though, is it not? Not being certain that you’re going to win, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, etc..

WvW success is still most easily (and reliably) achieved when you attain a certain critical mass of players, though. When you reach that certain point (and I think 100 PUGs qualifies), you’re no longer an army or a fighting force, you’re a steamroller. I’ve seen it done -and done it- with far less. That’s why all this whining annoys me; it can be done and it’s a helluva lot of fun, but it looks like most people are just balking at how long it takes.

Hickeroar.9734:

FractalChaos.6539:

ParaldaWind.4523:

I was both wiped by superior arrow carts tonight, and wiped others, and I never once had any fun doing it.

Stop encouraging us not to PvP, Anet.

I timed this last night; I have a level 80 Engineer with about 2400 armor and 24k hit points. He literally stood, /dancing, in arrow rain from a superior AC for 35 seconds before the AC got him down to 30% HP and he had to heal himself. He then /danced for another 17-18 seconds before /laughing and heading back into Bay.

Either you’re not very good at this game, or else you’re exaggerating/lying.

And I can tell you that you’re making crap up. This is simply not possible without external healing. Your math is broken. Superior arrow carts pulse 1500+, twice per second, against even the tankiest of characters. With 24k health, that’s 16 pulses and you’re dead (probably faster with a medium armor class which typically pulses for 1700+). Read: Two uses of the arrow cart and you’re dead.

You were not dancing in superior arrow cart fire for 35 seconds….

I have a guardian with around 3000 armor and just under 24k health (the new sentinel armor). One use of a superior arrow cart on me had me at 50% health, and the arrow cart I was operating had about 5% health left.

Again I say: You were not dancing in superior arrow cart fire for 35 seconds….

Guess I will have to try and replicate it and FRAPS it. It’s really quite funny. You’re doing math on a message board; I’ve stood there getting plinked. Which one of us has the more solid experience of the situation?

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

Few things are ever sure, I grant you that completely. I could be 100% wrong about this (although I really, really sincerely doubt it). That’s the fun of it, though, is it not? Not being certain that you’re going to win, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, etc..

WvW success is still most easily (and reliably) achieved when you attain a certain critical mass of players, though. When you reach that certain point (and I think 100 PUGs qualifies), you’re no longer an army or a fighting force, you’re a steamroller. I’ve seen it done -and done it- with far less. That’s why all this whining annoys me; it can be done and it’s a helluva lot of fun, but it looks like most people are just balking at how long it takes.

I’ve seen zergs with 100 people die loads of times. It is far from a critical mass. I would say that critical masses only form when the groups have a decent composition and work together. The critical mass in those groups is about 30.

It is extremely rare for those groups to die against a single enemy zerg of only 100 people.

I just manged to plant 31 arrowcarts on the north gate of SM. 15 on the ramparts 10 below and 6 on the third tier. All were able to hit the gate where they were placed.

Note: Just because they arent built doesnt mean they cannot be built. The siege limit was not hit due to AC’s now being able to hit for 3500 range while the siege limit range is per 1000(or there about). Im fairly certain I could place more on the upper tier where the Cannon is also that can hit. (edit: I just placed 6)

Rampart – 15 AC – http://i.imgur.com/eG0HJVS.jpg
Below – 10 AC – http://i.imgur.com/aWN3vWT.jpg
3rd Tier – 6 AC – http://i.imgur.com/3kzw56n.jpg

THIS IS WHAT WE WANT!

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

How about we leave arrow carts as is for a week or two and see how the meta plays out? If it ends up making zerg rushes far less effective and forces players to be smart about how they play WvW… then good, keep the AC Buff. If there are unexpected problems however, then perhaps ACs should be toned down.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no? Knowing this, who in their right mind would walk up and try to PvDoor a fort? It doesn’t matter how many people you have, it only takes one person to drop the pot of burning oil/tar on your head. And boiling tar tends to leave a slight rash.

OutspokenAardvark.9781:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

lmao.

What tier are you in?

Tier One, which is meaningless, since a server “going up in tiers” relies only on how many guilds it can recruit and what kind of coverage it can field, not how skilled the players on it actually are…

FractalChaos.6539:

Tier One, which is meaningless, since a server “going up in tiers” relies only on how many guilds it can recruit and what kind of coverage it can field, not how skilled the players on it actually are…

From no on this is no longer true. Now it will matter how many people a server can put on arrowcarts, so the bigger server still has a better chance. They just need even less skill now.

hooray

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

How about we leave arrow carts as is for a week or two and see how the meta plays out? If it ends up making zerg rushes far less effective and forces players to be smart about how they play WvW… then good, keep the AC Buff. If there are unexpected problems however, then perhaps ACs should be toned down.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no? Knowing this, who in their right mind would walk up and try to PvDoor a fort? It doesn’t matter how many people you have, it only takes one person to drop the pot of burning oil/tar on your head. And boiling tar tends to leave a slight rash.

The problem is how hard should they be to take:

On T8 hard may be 1 hour for a T3 keep
On T1 hard may be 4+ hours of grinding on a keep (hitting walls doors to drain supply, slapping yaks before they get to the keep) just to get to inner.

How long do you think it should take for a well organized group to take a keep from another organized group?

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

As mentioned before a group of 30 could hold a keep against 100 people even before the patch.

Give me command of 100 PUGs with map chat against your 30 best WvW players on voice chat, and I will run those 100 PUGs down your collective gullets, buffed ACs or not. You won’t even know what hit you.

Then you are a good commander and will have succeeded where others have failed. I personally would love to try that and I’m sure it would be a good fight. If you are sure that you would win, I think you are overconfident.

Not saying it is impossible for you to take hills, I’m saying it is not a sure thing. We’ve proven that before.

Few things are ever sure, I grant you that completely. I could be 100% wrong about this (although I really, really sincerely doubt it). That’s the fun of it, though, is it not? Not being certain that you’re going to win, snatching victory from the jaws of defeat, etc..

WvW success is still most easily (and reliably) achieved when you attain a certain critical mass of players, though. When you reach that certain point (and I think 100 PUGs qualifies), you’re no longer an army or a fighting force, you’re a steamroller. I’ve seen it done -and done it- with far less. That’s why all this whining annoys me; it can be done and it’s a helluva lot of fun, but it looks like most people are just balking at how long it takes.

I’ve seen zergs with 100 people die loads of times. It is far from a critical mass. I would say that critical masses only form when the groups have a decent composition and work together. The critical mass in those groups is about 30.

It is extremely rare for those groups to die against a single enemy zerg of only 100 people.

guess we have to quote this video again

go to 7:55

20 v who knows how many….

Caedmon.6798:

1170 posts..Not one reply….Anet are you serious ? You don’t want to talk with us about how to possibly still turn this into a good thing with a few changes ? Keep going your own way and ignore your community hoping the problem will solve itself in time and people get used to it…?

With the total lack of communication with Your community,about basically everything from the constant disconnects people are getting since the last patch,and no word from Anet…This thread reaching so many posts and not a word from Anet.
Do you care about your customers ?

Maybe it’s because 1170 posts represent 0.11% out of a million players.

Maybe it’s because they realize that out of the 1170 there isn’t consensus at all about the effects of the change. Some like it and some don’t.

Maybe it’s because they realize most players are actually taking the time to experience and properly evaluate the changes before claiming the sky is falling.

Maybe it’s because they are rational and patient and wan’t to look at actual data over time rather then the emotionally driven responses of forum warriors.

Maybe they realize it is waste of their valuable time to respond to knee jerk forum reactions until they actually have some data and have some time to evaluate that data so they can make a reasoned response.

I’ve yet to see anyone complain about the arrow cart changes in game and everyone still seems to be having a grand time.

Not saying that changes and tweaks to the ACs are not needed as they may be, but can we at least go one week and give them a fair chance before asking for changes.

Also it would be wise to drop the insults that ANet doesn’t care, doesn’t communicate, or is to dumb to understand their own game as that doesn’t help your case especially since it is coming from wanna-be developers that have never actually developed or created anything except posts on a forum.

spconder.2489:

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no? Knowing this, who in their right mind would walk up and try to PvDoor a fort? It doesn’t matter how many people you have, it only takes one person to drop the pot of burning oil/tar on your head. And boiling tar tends to leave a slight rash.

I totally agree with this. It is great that this was never a problem before, keeps and towers were hard to capture if defended. Many keep sieges have failed an hour or 2 of work. There was no need to change anything about that.

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Breytes.6901:

I ran my overly squishy thief in WvW for several hours last night and I did not die to a single arrow cart the entire time.

Shh. Arrow carts are massively overpowered now. One player with an arrow cart can defend garrison by himself now.

What you guys don’t get is 1 or 2 Ac’s are fine and maybe that is all you run into in yur tier. I wonder how many T3 towers/keeps Breytes took while not dying to an AC. The problem is in my tier it is rare that there are less than 6+ AC’s at every entrance. That many Ac’s with everyone on them trated for range is rediculous, you cant even put up a cata. The range is too much matched with the buff.

If I recall correctly in the time I played last night we completely took over all of one servers holdings in EB. There were no less than 4 AC at each tower we took and a couple of towers we had to abandon and regroup for different tactics, and give our dead time to get back to us, before we could take them.

The towers with more than 4 AC were drastically harder to take down but all we had to do was refocus our group and approach the fight on a few different fronts. In the end I had to really watch where I was standing and what was happening around me. The only time I died was when the enemy had the gates covered with AC’s and a large group flanked us as we were pulling back to reassess our approach.

I am not saying I did not die while in WvW, I am not that good, but I did not die to red AC circles it came real close a few times due to tunnel vision, but close is not dead.

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

You are. The one and only complaint I hear from you and your ilk boils down to “It’s not as fast as it was before”. Irrelevant noise.

And when we say as fast = hours before, way more hours or near impossible now.

I think in some tiers fast = 10 mins. In T1/2/3 fast rarely means less than an hour for a T3 defended keep.

You know something, you’re right on that point. I grant you that in other tiers, the difficulty may ramp up in a steeper curve because of this. SoR has been in tier 1 a while so the only viewpoint I get is that of one server with a whole lotta people fighting 2 other servers with a whole lotta people. That probably distorts things as I see them.

Given that I still say however (server population or tier notwithstanding) that ACs needed a huge boost, reducing it to +50% damage versus +80% would be worth trying and seeing if servers in lower tiers can work around that.

Kudos to you on putting forth a reasoned and well thought out argument and not making it “my opinion is better than your opinion” like so many others here!!

Psssst: You can’t return them to pre-patch damage levels however. They then go back to being irrelevant.

Wow this thread…….im amazed!

Caliban.3176:

spconder.2489:

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no? Knowing this, who in their right mind would walk up and try to PvDoor a fort? It doesn’t matter how many people you have, it only takes one person to drop the pot of burning oil/tar on your head. And boiling tar tends to leave a slight rash.

I totally agree with this. It is great that this was never a problem before, keeps and towers were hard to capture if defended. Many keep sieges have failed an hour or 2 of work. There was no need to change anything about that.

Well…maybe. But in T1 or T2…. Multiple golem rushes make a mockery of of fully upgraded keeps and towers. Reinforced doors melt so quick you barely have time to make it to inner. Golems followed by overwhelming zergs.

I think this was an attempt to equalize that. But, maybe deactivating/nerfing golems would allow them to crank the AC’s back to normal. And we could go to strategically placed normal siege.

FractalChaos.6539:

Ruprect.7260:

FractalChaos.6539:

Caliban.3176:

TyrDaishi.1057:

Caliban.3176:

Tallis.5607:

People that complain about the ACs are probably just zergling that want to curl up in a 80-man group, take a map and move on to the next map.

Look at who you are talking about:
RG, VcY, Agg, Riot, MERC, VoTF, sIN, DsD, IRON

Hard to call these guilds zerglings that want to curl up in an 80 man group. (Some might have the numbers for that and still usually chose not to e.g. IRON)

I know for a fact that members of big WvW Guilds from Elona’s reach like Anima Immortalis, Aegis, GD, Equinox, Galleon and many more are thinking the same about this joke of a patch. I would bet that our German friends from Kodash like KOA, fx or BOTS are thinking the same.

That is great and I encourage them to all voice there concerns in here because apparently those opposing the patch are now being labeled as a vocal minority.

You are. The one and only complaint I hear from you and your ilk boils down to “It’s not as fast as it was before”. Irrelevant noise.

And when we say as fast = hours before, way more hours or near impossible now.

I think in some tiers fast = 10 mins. In T1/2/3 fast rarely means less than an hour for a T3 defended keep.

You know something, you’re right on that point. I grant you that in other tiers, the difficulty may ramp up in a steeper curve because of this. SoR has been in tier 1 a while so the only viewpoint I get is that of one server with a whole lotta people fighting 2 other servers with a whole lotta people. That probably distorts things as I see them.

Given that I still say however (server population or tier notwithstanding) that ACs needed a huge boost, reducing it to +50% damage versus +80% would be worth trying and seeing if servers in lower tiers can work around that.

Kudos to you on putting forth a reasoned and well thought out argument and not making it “my opinion is better than your opinion” like so many others here!!

Psssst: You can’t return them to pre-patch damage levels however. They then go back to being irrelevant.

That is why I said earlier in the thread that maybe a happy medium would be if a player has the outmanned buff then they get the full 80%buff. maybe if not out manned they drop it down to a 25% buff?

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

and yet again, i must repeat myself

please read
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

Well i used to be an WvWvW player but then i took an arrow from a overpowered arrow cart to the knee .
Sorry that had to be done.
Why is everyone complaining its easy to kill an arrow cart.

Lance.5892:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

REALLY?? REALLY??

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

STRAIGHT FROM ARENANET’S MOUTH ON GUILD WARS 2 WEBSITE

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

…involving “mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems” in order to “lay siege to castles”.

Time to sPvP. Bye WvW

FractalChaos.6539:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

THANK…FREAKING…YOU!!!!

This isn’t “PvP”; it’s WvW. It’s supposed to be about attrition, sieges, defenses. If you don’t care about that part of the game and only want to kill players, go play sPvP.

You know, the game mode Anet included for those who like to kill players without all that bothersome siege stuff?

Valid replies were given to that post you just quoted. Please read those instead of trying to troll.

2/10

Lance.5892:

please read

You’re implying he’s capable of doing so in the first place. Otherwise he wouldn’t have missed my reply.

Then again, not surprising the way this thread has turned. We’ve been sitting through one big “lol I troll u” session at this point.

FractalChaos.6539:

Lance.5892:

MagnusLL.8473:

Sorenstam Blackrose.8425:

Caliban.3176:

We open up keeps and towers to get to the people inside, not for any other reason.

The fact that this point has to be reiterated time and time again is probably the most disappointing part about this thread. It’s funny how the zerg-busting guilds are getting lumped in with the mythical karma train zergs simply because they disagree with this patch and see all its implications.

I hope you do understand that a game mode including towers, keeps, siege weapons, supply camps and supply lines, and whose score is computed on structures owned and not on total kills was never intended to be played as a bigger deathmatch arena.

REALLY?? REALLY??

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/pvp/

World vs. World (WvW) is PvP combat that involves hundred of players. Three huge teams —each representing a server, or world—battle for control over objectives on four massive maps in week-long matches.
Each map – one for each server and a huge “neutral” center map – is loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems.
While players are in WvW, they gain experience and loot just as they normally do while exploring Tyria. Plus, when their home world is doing well or wins a match in WvW, all players on that world receive special bonuses and perks.
World vs. World—it’s PvP combat on an epic scale!

STRAIGHT FROM ARENANET’S MOUTH ON GUILD WARS 2 WEBSITE

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

…involving “mighty weapons of war like trebuchets and siege golems” in order to “lay siege to castles”.

and thus where does it say anything about attrition?

PVP COMBAT ON AN EPIC SCALE

The fact that WvW is more than simple killing ppl doens’t mean you have to take it away.

Because that’s what happens – more hide ’n seek, more trebbing wars, more turtling from a tower to the other, more “Avoid fight those guys to defend our tower. Why should i swing my hammer when i can farm ppl sitting comfortably behind a AC?”.

And, considered how much pvp is bad (right now) and pve gets pointless quite fast, that’s mean killing game.

Lol @ ad hominem attacks for players that disagree with you, good arguments should stand on their own. Not require you to attack the opposition.

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Lol @ ad hominem attacks for players that disagree with you, good arguments should stand on their own. Not require you to attack the opposition.

Oh yeah, and all those posts saying we are mindless zergs and blobs and karmatrains and that we should l2play were not ad hominem?

I trie to refrain from going to ad hominems but he had no arguments that weren’t discussed already, he was just plainly trolling. I would never do that to anyone who is even remotely trying to have an adult conversation.

Hickeroar.9734:

If the benefit to the buff was that the smaller forces stood a chance against the larger forces while defending…that would be one thing…

The problem is that arrowcarts are being used as offensive weapons now. Zergs are dropping ACs outside of towers and keeps and using gaps above doors (and other creative aiming tricks) to aim them inside and take out all the siege…including other arrow carts, before attempting to take the tower.

And I should mention that even a small zerg with three arrow carts outside a tower can wipe anyone trying to get INTO that tower to defend it with breathtaking ease.

TC lost TCBL Bay last night to enemies dropping tons of superior arrow carts outside the gates of inner and wiping siege inside. When they came in, they hardly had any resistance from siege because they had used arrow carts to wipe almost all of it. That….is utterly broken.

The post immediatly following also by Hickroar:

Arrow carts almost have as much range as catapults now… Not to mention you may cata down that wall, but good luck getting inside the breach…

What? Your two posts back to back are arguing the two opposite points of view.

And you say TC lost Bay – which completely contradicts what another TC poster is saying (namley its impossible to take keeps now).

Come on. Just give it a couple of weeks.

spconder.2489:

I’m going to do the stupid thing an try to be reasonable about this.

Keeps and towers SHOULD be hard to capture. The whole point of building a fort is to give the defenders a rather substantial advantage, no?

Defenders should ubstantial advantage YES.And that they already have for being covered by walls and having the tactical higher ground advantage + suply stack.SUBSTANTIAL ADVANTAGE not WTFPAWN GODMODE .We can deal with dodge ,we can deal with being oneshoted ,we can live with using better organization and awareness,but we can’t deal that 1 superior ac and 1 player = rams not usable.

Rams and melee siege dies too fast .Acs were buffed 100% but melee range siege has the same crappy HP and it’s a waste of suply to try and build one.Also a small group of people can’t build a treb and and even one treb is completely useless to siege .Small teams are KITTENED no purpoise left for them other than flip camps every 10 min ,another great change thx PvP department.

With suply being stalled like never before due to latest camp buff changes and making low value siege like rams unusable things are over the top harder to mantain a proper siege against a defended position.Not to mention unneficient against same or larger defending force.Outmanned should just log off now cuz no way in hell anyone can cap anything.Anet basicly buffed the strongest server and you guys agree with it.

The only purpoise for rams now are for spies trolling a server’s suply and siege cap.Period.

AC buff needs to go and reimplemented only for OUTMANNED to actually help it’s purpoise and balance the game in the opposite of what they did with this patch.

I think we should send like a firm collection to Anet, so they can realize what they’ve done.
It’s impossible to play with this OP arrows..D***k? 2k damage for each arrow? COME ON.

Caliban.3176:

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Lol @ ad hominem attacks for players that disagree with you, good arguments should stand on their own. Not require you to attack the opposition.

Oh yeah, and all those posts saying we are mindless zergs and blobs and karmatrains and that we should l2play were not ad hominem?

I trie to refrain from going to ad hominems but he had no arguments that weren’t discussed already, he was just plainly trolling. I would never do that to anyone who is even remotely trying to have an adult conversation.

Notice that I don’t indicate a bias on either side in my post, that you decided to be defensive about it says enough. There are plenty of personal attacks going on on both sides, they aren’t adding anything to the thread other than bloat and most likely causing devs to ignore the thread entirely (I know I would if I were them).

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Caliban.3176:

pulsecodesgnl.3470:

Lol @ ad hominem attacks for players that disagree with you, good arguments should stand on their own. Not require you to attack the opposition.

Oh yeah, and all those posts saying we are mindless zergs and blobs and karmatrains and that we should l2play were not ad hominem?

I trie to refrain from going to ad hominems but he had no arguments that weren’t discussed already, he was just plainly trolling. I would never do that to anyone who is even remotely trying to have an adult conversation.

Notice that I don’t indicate a bias on either side in my post, that you decided to be defensive about it says enough. There are plenty of personal attacks going on on both sides, they aren’t adding anything to the thread other than bloat and most likely causing devs to ignore the thread entirely (I know I would if I were them).

I was defensive because you posted that immediately after I did just that.

I know I was wrong but sometimes even I make mistakes when people do their best to annoy me.

Big shock, I know, I’m not perfect.

I apologize.

FractalChaos.6539:

Aneu.1748:

FractalChaos.6539:

Loken.9724:

Lance.5892:

Johje Holan.4607:

It doesn’t actually seem that powerful to me. The most I was hitting for on a regular AC with no mastery was 1245. But mostly in the mid triple digits.

And to tell you the truth, I saw a lot of offensive AC’s too.

And the zergs in my match actually split up last night! It was fun.

http://imgur.com/w0LVRTA

1) try a superior
2) factor in wxp rank ac upgrades

This only encourages me to get 100 people to zerg a single tower. The 2 people on sup AC’s can’t possibly kill all 100 before we get the gate down…

…and while you do that, we’ll take the rest of the map. There’s a price to pay for everything.

With how many people? 2 people in those towers with AC’s will be able to hold you off… starting to see the problem? Probably not…

Firstly; two people in a tower with ACs will slow down 100 attackers for about…15, 20 seconds? I get that you were exaggerating to make a point (I hope you were; you’re not really so bad your 100 attackers can’t steamroll a tower with 2 defenders in under 60 seconds, are you?), but try to keep the scale even moderately realistic.

Secondly: two people with ACs in a tower can hold off 10 people, maximum…as long as said 10 people are not stupid enough to try and ram the gate down. If, however, said 10 people build 2 catas and aim them at the gate or the wall, the two people in the tower with arrow carts are pretty boned.

Ok so Superior arrowcarts have a limit of 50 people(?) and for sake of arguement (seen hits for 2.5k and 1.8k) that it hits 2k per hit (1s) now with 2 arrowcarts thats 4k per second for 50 people provided they are “zerging” and facerubbing a door.

Over 10 seconds that is a total of 40,000 damage (20,000 per arrowcart) for 50 people. Now take into account the healing/regen/waterfields that people are able to blow off, it is realistically impossible to sustain a 20,000 healing amount per 10 seconds for any group let alone 40,000 healing per 10 seconds. Factor in a 33% damage reduction from protection and you still realistically wouldnt be able to do it.

That is 2 pieces of siege holding off 50 people.

Now we come to your response which is “DONT FACERUB THE GATE HURR” “TREB” “RAM” “CATA” and so on and so forth and around in circles we go.