Guild Wars 2

Hickeroar.9734:

I’m liking certain aspects of it and hating others. I’m willing to grudgingly admit that things haven’t been as bad the last couple days as they were at first, and some kind of balance seems to have been achieved.

I would just love to see open field combat ACs nerfed back to their original strength, and siege should be more resistant to ACs.

This new balance seems to be settling in and it is everything I thought it would be. You either bring a huge zerg to take anything or you die while unsuccesfully trying to provoke fights.

We tried flipping a camp with 7 people. Then 25 people show up and build 2 arrowcarts.

We see a group of about 15 enemies and try to fight with them, they run to the nearest tower and get on the siege.

This new balance takes all the pvp away from the game. It is really bad.

Revert the arrowcart damage to where it was before. Make the arrowcart damage as a guild upgrade that works when you claim a tower. Combination of skill upgrades and the guild upgrades should approach the damage of what arrowcarts are now.

This is just like GW1. A skill is OP, abuse the heck out of it until it’s nerfed. Move on.

Anyone still confused?

shiri.4257:

Revert the arrowcart damage to where it was before. Make the arrowcart damage as a guild upgrade that works when you claim a tower. Combination of skill upgrades and the guild upgrades should approach the damage of what arrowcarts are now.

If that buff would then only work for guildies then I think this would not be bad. Limit the amount of arrowcarts that can use this buff though (5 for tower, 10 for keeps, 15 for SM).

I do not think anyone would actually need the damage from this but it would give guilds the incentive to upgrade and defend something.

After playing a lot of WvW with them now this last weekend on T7, here are my thoughts (these may be issues unique to lower pop tiers)

1. Ballista, catapult range must increase, or AC range decrease. It is really hard placing ballista, catapults beyond AC range. I think the damage is fine, since the whole point is to make it painful enough where people can not stand in it. The range though is excessive and reducing the role of other siege, including cannons.

2. AC’s are driving more catapults and trebs. This puts a supply bind on small servers, where much of the action now is treb from camp or tower or keep, or try to get massed cats up with multiple supply camp runs. Because we don’t have a massive 50 man zergball with a gazillion supply, build costs on cats is slowing stuff down. Perhaps reducing the supply cost of rams and cats might be in order? Walls upgrade before doors, and if AC covers the doors, you have to go into a harder wall, meaning more high supply cats.

3. A skeleton crew can now defend v. zerg, and that drives the zerg to build siege. I like this.

4. It sure would be nice if there was a WvW talent that gave you an eagle eye view of the keep so you can see what siege is in there. So many AC’s and cats are out of sight and hard to spot, and so much siege is wasted building rams against targets that appear empty of siege. Maybe add ravens/crows for ambience in the air, and have a commune with crow/raven talent. Let players shoot crows to defend against eagle eye.

5. Golems are a big deal on smaller servers, and having them melt in AC fire is really a pain. Maybe some engineers need to come up with an arrow cart resistant plan for golems.

6. On a small server with few people, it is really hard finding someone to refresh siege. Sure would be nice if they worked like parking meters, and you could load it up with supply to make it last a few hours, so you could do something like, say , go eat dinner.

Trebbing arrow carts and other trebs is not my idea of a good time. So i’m playing a lot less WvW since the patch.

I like my PvP to involve actual combat. You know, when players use those skillbar abilities at the bottom of the screen.

Shadow Gathering.5649:

Trebbing arrow carts and other trebs is not my idea of a good time. So i’m playing a lot less WvW since the patch.

I like my PvP to involve actual combat. You know, when players use those skillbar abilities at the bottom of the screen.

Well the trick is that you need ppl to man your weapons mainly AC so you can simply pull them off the carts into aoe. This is the best way to dealing with AC for towers as for keep they should take a bit more work then a tower.

Make arrow carts like cannons and oil, buildable in certain spots.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

Arrow carts cost less silver and supply because they were the weakest siege. If you are going to make them the most powerful siege, then the supply cost and silver cost needs to go up as well.

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Do you prefer it if WvW removed all walls, all gates, and all supply? That’s exactly why. Many people prefer it if WvW was played out like an actual war involving both siege and players, in which one cannot succeed without the other.

I guess you prefer it if it’s about just some gigantic gladiator arena.

Did you have problems using arrow carts pre patch? Arrow carts were overpowered before and did not need a buff; most people simply didn’t know how to use them. Now that they’ve been buffed by 80%, people use them more frequently because oh right, these things cost very little supply, are built like tanks, and 160 supply worth can do more aggregate damage than 100 players with 100% uptime.

You HAD to clear arrow carts against competent opponents pre-patch. The difference is that you could leave some up because the aggregate damage wasn’t enough such that you had to tediously outpace your opponents supply by a factor of 3.33 to 1 in order to beat carts.

Sieges of bay, hills, or garrison generally were at a minimum half hour to 45 minute affairs, which is a pretty reasonable time frame for a not-so-persistent battleground that resets from week to week. The three to four hour sieges currently required make the idea of doing that, well, unattractive. Hills has become the keep you take when the other server is asleep.

It’s just not worth waiting 2h to 3h for a fight when you can just go straight for someone’s spawn, their north camp, whatever, and just ignore PPT.

Zoel.9154:

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Do you prefer it if WvW removed all walls, all gates, and all supply? That’s exactly why. Many people prefer it if WvW was played out like an actual war involving both siege and players, in which one cannot succeed without the other.

I guess you prefer it if it’s about just some gigantic gladiator arena.

Did you have problems using arrow carts pre patch? Arrow carts were overpowered before and did not need a buff; most people simply didn’t know how to use them. Now that they’ve been buffed by 80%, people use them more frequently because oh right, these things cost very little supply, are built like tanks, and 160 supply worth can do more aggregate damage than 100 players with 100% uptime.

You HAD to clear arrow carts against competent opponents pre-patch. The difference is that you could leave some up because the aggregate damage wasn’t enough such that you had to tediously outpace your opponents supply by a factor of 3.33 to 1 in order to beat carts.

Sieges of bay, hills, or garrison generally were at a minimum half hour to 45 minute affairs, which is a pretty reasonable time frame for a not-so-persistent battleground that resets from week to week. The three to four hour sieges currently required make the idea of doing that, well, unattractive. Hills has become the keep you take when the other server is asleep.

It’s just not worth waiting 2h to 3h for a fight when you can just go straight for someone’s spawn, their north camp, whatever, and just ignore PPT.

Overpowered before? Really? You’d probably have to stack a few of them together to make them most effective, otherwise the damage is simply ignored, or that the annoyance they provide doesn’t make them worthy of being a priority. Supply doesn’t always allow them to reach effective critical mass either.

To take something requires more supply to defend it. I think that’s true for all scenarios, even in real life. When you take the objective however, you become the defender, and whoever wants to take it thereafter must use more supply than you to take it if they want it, especially so if the objective wasn’t freshly taken. I don’t see this part as an issue.

Regarding taking major objectives, I personally prefer the longer time it takes to get it. Not that I like manning siege, but because I do not think of it as practical taking it quickly considering that it is a major objective. It is more rewarding after taking it because it requires so much more planning and effort. Plus, it makes it more valuable to defend.

Heijincks.9267:

Zoel.9154:

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Do you prefer it if WvW removed all walls, all gates, and all supply? That’s exactly why. Many people prefer it if WvW was played out like an actual war involving both siege and players, in which one cannot succeed without the other.

I guess you prefer it if it’s about just some gigantic gladiator arena.

Did you have problems using arrow carts pre patch? Arrow carts were overpowered before and did not need a buff; most people simply didn’t know how to use them. Now that they’ve been buffed by 80%, people use them more frequently because oh right, these things cost very little supply, are built like tanks, and 160 supply worth can do more aggregate damage than 100 players with 100% uptime.

You HAD to clear arrow carts against competent opponents pre-patch. The difference is that you could leave some up because the aggregate damage wasn’t enough such that you had to tediously outpace your opponents supply by a factor of 3.33 to 1 in order to beat carts.

Sieges of bay, hills, or garrison generally were at a minimum half hour to 45 minute affairs, which is a pretty reasonable time frame for a not-so-persistent battleground that resets from week to week. The three to four hour sieges currently required make the idea of doing that, well, unattractive. Hills has become the keep you take when the other server is asleep.

It’s just not worth waiting 2h to 3h for a fight when you can just go straight for someone’s spawn, their north camp, whatever, and just ignore PPT.

Overpowered before? Really? You’d probably have to stack a few of them together to make them most effective, otherwise the damage is simply ignored, or that the annoyance they provide doesn’t make them worthy of being a priority. Supply doesn’t always allow them to reach effective critical mass either.

To take something requires more supply to defend it. I think that’s true for all scenarios, even in real life. When you take the objective however, you become the defender, and whoever wants to take it thereafter must use more supply than you to take it if they want it, especially so if the objective wasn’t freshly taken. I don’t see this part as an issue.

Regarding taking major objectives, I personally prefer the longer time it takes to get it. Not that I like manning siege, but because I do not think of it as practical taking it quickly considering that it is a major objective. It is more rewarding after taking it because it requires so much more planning and effort. Plus, it makes it more valuable to defend. I don’t think you and I WvW for the same reasons. I don’t WvW exclusively for the fights, but rather the prospect of something akin to playing chess.

I used to be into that, but there are better games to suit that need. Why not play Eve online?

Even if YOU want to spend 3 to 4 hours taking hills, chances are the other people on your server wont.

And yes, you did have to stack a few of them before to get an insane damage output. So…. we did. Now, we stack even more for more damage because it is the only defensive strategy worth using.

I’ll keep posting a video that shows how effective they were pre-patch, because they were.

I’m not really sure what sort of strategy you think this is, though. The defense is always carts and trebuchets, the offense is always trebuchets. There isn’t exactly a higher level thought process that goes into this thing. Before you had to pick out the right time to take out your opponents offensive seige on foot, choose locations inside your keep to make a hold, or pick good times to go on supply runs.

Now, you just sit. And wait. Then wait some more. We’ve gone from chess to checkers.

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

Zoel.9154:

Heijincks.9267:

Zoel.9154:

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Do you prefer it if WvW removed all walls, all gates, and all supply? That’s exactly why. Many people prefer it if WvW was played out like an actual war involving both siege and players, in which one cannot succeed without the other.

I guess you prefer it if it’s about just some gigantic gladiator arena.

Did you have problems using arrow carts pre patch? Arrow carts were overpowered before and did not need a buff; most people simply didn’t know how to use them. Now that they’ve been buffed by 80%, people use them more frequently because oh right, these things cost very little supply, are built like tanks, and 160 supply worth can do more aggregate damage than 100 players with 100% uptime.

You HAD to clear arrow carts against competent opponents pre-patch. The difference is that you could leave some up because the aggregate damage wasn’t enough such that you had to tediously outpace your opponents supply by a factor of 3.33 to 1 in order to beat carts.

Sieges of bay, hills, or garrison generally were at a minimum half hour to 45 minute affairs, which is a pretty reasonable time frame for a not-so-persistent battleground that resets from week to week. The three to four hour sieges currently required make the idea of doing that, well, unattractive. Hills has become the keep you take when the other server is asleep.

It’s just not worth waiting 2h to 3h for a fight when you can just go straight for someone’s spawn, their north camp, whatever, and just ignore PPT.

Overpowered before? Really? You’d probably have to stack a few of them together to make them most effective, otherwise the damage is simply ignored, or that the annoyance they provide doesn’t make them worthy of being a priority. Supply doesn’t always allow them to reach effective critical mass either.

To take something requires more supply to defend it. I think that’s true for all scenarios, even in real life. When you take the objective however, you become the defender, and whoever wants to take it thereafter must use more supply than you to take it if they want it, especially so if the objective wasn’t freshly taken. I don’t see this part as an issue.

…

I used to be into that, but there are better games to suit that need. Why not play Eve online?

Even if YOU want to spend 3 to 4 hours taking hills, chances are the other people on your server wont.

And yes, you did have to stack a few of them before to get an insane damage output. So…. we did. Now, we stack even more for more damage because it is the only defensive strategy worth using.

I’ll keep posting a video that shows how effective they were pre-patch, because they were.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny-_b5D9MUA

I’m not really sure what sort of strategy you think this is, though. The defense is always carts and trebuchets, the offense is always trebuchets. There isn’t exactly a higher level thought process that goes into this thing. Before you had to pick out the right time to take out your opponents offensive seige on foot, choose locations inside your keep to make a hold, or pick good times to go on supply runs.

Now, you just sit. And wait. Then wait some more. We’ve gone from chess to checkers.

I could play EVE. I could play any game I like. It doesn’t change my opinion on this matter though.

True, there are people who don’t like the longer process to take Hills or any other major objective. That’s their problem however, and not mine, same the other way around; my problem with their style of gameplay isn’t their problem either.

Also, your video showed how arrow carts are pretty much just ignored at critical mass. Critical mass of anything is strong, more so if they’re simply ignored. Does that make them OP? Not really, or else it would be the same as calling a 100 man zerg OP. That said, “OP” is really just subjective conjecture. Even if arrow carts were 1/5 the power pre-patch, you stack up enough of them, and they’ll still be killer.

Before, siege wasn’t really even needed to take anything down nor defend anything. You only needed numbers. Siege was simply a harassment tool unless you were willing to spend vast amounts of supply (not many were really inclined to do this), and now it isn’t.

So then why should it be easy to get a critical mass of arrow carts?

Sorry, you did need seige to take down defended structures before the patch. I’m not really sure where you could have gotten the notion that you didn’t need it.

Do you think we just used it for giggles?

I do 99.9% WvW activities (mostly solo or small group roaming) and the damage on ACs now is just stupid. They are so good now that the “zergballs” you detest are setting them all the time just for regular open field battles b/c just one can turn the tide of battle.

I suspect what you are really happy about is this weapon will let you farm people far easier than before rather than having to work for it by pulling the gullible out of zergs and picking them off. Good for you. Bad for the game. Enjoy it while it lasts b/c either they tone it down or people will get discouraged and the WvW portion of the game goes the way of the Dodo as nobody likes being blown up by artillery.

Zoel.9154:

So then why should it be easy to get a critical mass of arrow carts?

Sorry, you did need seige to take down defended structures before the patch. I’m not really sure where you could have gotten the notion that you didn’t need it.

Do you think we just used it for giggles?

It shouldn’t be easy; however it shouldn’t be impractical to do so as well. High risk, low reward. Honestly, I bet with just even a slight amount of coordination most of those arrow carts could have been down. The way the arrow carts are positioned, you can attack some and not get hit by all of them.

If siege are flame rams, then sure you need them. But trebs? Catapults? Only if there’s a large number defending and a lesser number attacking, then probably because that would make facerubbing impractical. Flame rams down? Build more, or possibly switch to a catapult on the door. In most cases, you just needed to tank the damage and kept attacking the gate until you eventually broke in. This is addressed upon all objectives by the way, not just Hills, Bay, SM and the like.

lol zoel arguing on the forums… :P

You know how hard it is to take a camp like pangaloss when a server compensates for skill with six arrowcarts?

Florgknight.1589:

You know how hard it is to take a camp like pangaloss when a server compensates for skill with six arrowcarts?

Servers have skills?

Merge this thread. Merge, merge, merge. Exterminate!!

Hai gaiz durrrr lets give moar reesons to sit in keeps insted of actuly fighting! durrrrr

Everyone who has argued or posted in a negative fashion is a bonehead. Plain and simple.

@OP Kabooky… There are MANY of us out here that completely agree with you. WvW in GW2 is WAAAAAAAAY too fast. The maps are too small, travel is too easy (ports) and most importantly it is extremely fast and simple to take an objective.

In my opinion:

-A supply camp should not be soloable or duoable.
-A flag guard should be a HARD fight solo for even the best player
-A supply camp should be defendable by a group of 5 against a zerg of 15-20 if there is sufficient anti seige.
-It is NOT ok that a fully upgraded keep can be flipped in a couple of minutes. That’s ridiculous!

2 defenders and a couple arrow carts should be sufficient for keeping a zerg of 20 off of a door. Period. Kids these days just get all emotionally twisted when things are hard.

Camelot Unchained shall be my savior….

I too enjoy meeting an opponent group open field and stopping to construct a jolly pile of arrow carts in sync with them.

ski.4927:

Everyone who has argued or posted in a negative fashion is a bonehead. Plain and simple.

@OP Kabooky… There are MANY of us out here that completely agree with you. WvW in GW2 is WAAAAAAAAY too fast. The maps are too small, travel is too easy (ports) and most importantly it is extremely fast and simple to take an objective.

In my opinion:

-A supply camp should not be soloable or duoable.
-A flag guard should be a HARD fight solo for even the best player
-A supply camp should be defendable by a group of 5 against a zerg of 15-20 if there is sufficient anti seige.
-It is NOT ok that a fully upgraded keep can be flipped in a couple of minutes. That’s ridiculous!

2 defenders and a couple arrow carts should be sufficient for keeping a zerg of 20 off of a door. Period. Kids these days just get all emotionally twisted when things are hard.

Camelot Unchained shall be my savior….

I beg your pardon, but what you are suggesting would in other words mean that coverage decides everything. And those servers who lack e.g. night time coverage should stop playing completely!! And what if there is just 2 persons on the map on your side, ragequit!?!?

Right in EU tier #1, VS has night time and morning coverage, while SFR and Deso don’t. Every single morning the situation is that VS controls 95-100% of the entire map. SFR and Deso players have work, they need to study, so VS can capture everything while they sleep. Now imagine then trying to capture anything when everything is upgraded to T3 and equipped with tons of arrow carts.

I really think your suggestions don’t make any sense, as they would just bring more power to the already most powerful World in that tier. Even less balance.

I really wish Arenanet would revert the AC damage back to where it was (it was already too good). AC shouldn’t damage enemy siege or turrets, but be an antipersonnel weapon. Now with the new WXP traits (increased range, damage and area) you can use ACs also to destroy enemy flaming rams and catapults. I have also been sitting next to an AC and getting tons of easy loot bags, but really this change made the game too one-sided.

Jade Quarry → Arrow Carty
Sea of Sorrows → Sea of Arrows

Hmm, any others? :P

Fort Aspenwood – Fort Arrowwood
Blackgate – BlackCart

ryan.3915:

Fort Aspenwood – Fort Arrowwood
Blackgate – BlackCart

HAHA, Fort Arrowwood is good XD

You could treb several places before the patch. I think the main problem is thta there used to be options.
You could:
-Use siege
-Bring an overwhelming force
-Have a small coordinated group beating on the gate
-Zerg rush a badly defended objective
-Ninja cap

The new AC’s has reduced these option to two. Use siege for hours, or rush an undefended obejective. You can effectively leave one person in each of the northen side towers and 5 in garri, and with the help of some sup arrowcarts defend the entire northern area.
As Zoel said, SOME may like to siege for a long time, I don’t. Now I must. Not only because it’s the only way to take an objective, but because EVERYONE is hiding, hugging their arrowcarts, inside towers.

“I used to enjoy sieging, but then I took an Arrowcart to the knee….”

Just FYI to the people who is starting to notice the change arrowcarts are bringing to wvwvw. This is only the beginning, imagine when people have actually adapted to the use of arrowcarts + knowing all the placements + all the traits – more damage, poison etc. If you feel the matchup is getting stale now and the keeps are hard to cap, just imagine what they are going to be in a couple of weeks or even a month. Stalemate Central.

This change to AC is just making the blobs even bigger than they were.
It´s a good patch for badge farmers and casuals, but most of the dedicated guilds are leaving WvW.
Less skill required in the game, and anyone can farm a good amount of badges with a level 2 char.

This is an urgent issue to fix, not any kind of animation in yet another dungeon.
WvW guilds and players are quitting, don´t you ANet realize?

The fact that this has not been resolved is disheartening to say the least. This is absolutely terrible decision making on Anet’s part. How many more dedicated WvW players and possible paying customers have to leave before they get a clue?

Aytrix.4059:

The fact that this has not been resolved is disheartening to say the least. This is absolutely terrible decision making on Anet’s part. How many more dedicated WvW players and possible paying customers have to leave before they get a clue?

I doubt Anet wasn’t able to anticipate what would happen. They have all the data and statistics. I don’t think they’re unable to foresee that shaking changes will negatively affect the playerbase (I mean Anet pulled this kind of thing several times already). Given that there is support for this decision, they’ll just wait until WvW is replaced by like players.

I’m thinking this is more of a purge than an actual bad decision. The former WvW probably wasn’t how they wanted it to be, and to make it how they want to be, they’d need to sacrifice players in the process (many major patches in all sorts of MMORPG results in this anyway). That said, we haven’t seen what they want to make WvW, so all this talk about permanent stalemates and slow WvW is inconclusive.

Heijincks.9267:

That said, we haven’t seen what they want to make WvW, so all this talk about permanent stalemates and slow WvW is inconclusive.

Problem is, that Arenanet haven’t said what they are going to do, and they do very little to convey what the entire point is of world vs world – From my and my guilds point of view, it definitely seems like they are not conveying any point regarding world versus world, because they have no point or no clue when it comes to world versus world. The Rambo balancing and random buffing of the arrowcarts which nobody has complained about for 8 months really tells us, that they have no clue and most likely the worst is yet to come.

Well, I guess they could be conveying a point towards having long drawn out siege battles. This however is not the direction to go for in my eyes. The game is too casual, the maps are to small and the mechanics to simplistic to make any kind of convincing siege warfare. I have to join the group that says: “Trebbing aint fun yo”.

humm i was afraid when readed the AC update but at the momment it doesnt hurt that much (imo), when being hitted by several AC’s, i just cant keep rushing in 1 direction, need to get back look at the map and see where i can deploy siege to counter it, dont care even if a treb need to be placed :P

Heijincks.9267:

Zoel.9154:

Heijincks.9267:

Caliban.3176:

Again I see people saying that players needed tools to defend.

Could those people explain how all those guilds use to do it without those tools? There was no real difficulty in doing it.

There was no need for this change and it really did kitten up a lot of things. Overall attendance in WvW has gone down for my server and their opponents, easily seen through all the queues. (Though our dominance might have had something to do with that as well as our use of the Arrowcarts to spawncamp and farm)

Do you prefer it if WvW removed all walls, all gates, and all supply? That’s exactly why. Many people prefer it if WvW was played out like an actual war involving both siege and players, in which one cannot succeed without the other.

I guess you prefer it if it’s about just some gigantic gladiator arena.

Did you have problems using arrow carts pre patch? Arrow carts were overpowered before and did not need a buff; most people simply didn’t know how to use them. Now that they’ve been buffed by 80%, people use them more frequently because oh right, these things cost very little supply, are built like tanks, and 160 supply worth can do more aggregate damage than 100 players with 100% uptime.

You HAD to clear arrow carts against competent opponents pre-patch. The difference is that you could leave some up because the aggregate damage wasn’t enough such that you had to tediously outpace your opponents supply by a factor of 3.33 to 1 in order to beat carts.

Sieges of bay, hills, or garrison generally were at a minimum half hour to 45 minute affairs, which is a pretty reasonable time frame for a not-so-persistent battleground that resets from week to week. The three to four hour sieges currently required make the idea of doing that, well, unattractive. Hills has become the keep you take when the other server is asleep.

It’s just not worth waiting 2h to 3h for a fight when you can just go straight for someone’s spawn, their north camp, whatever, and just ignore PPT.

Overpowered before? Really? You’d probably have to stack a few of them together to make them most effective, otherwise the damage is simply ignored, or that the annoyance they provide doesn’t make them worthy of being a priority. Supply doesn’t always allow them to reach effective critical mass either.

To take something requires more supply to defend it. I think that’s true for all scenarios, even in real life. When you take the objective however, you become the defender, and whoever wants to take it thereafter must use more supply than you to take it if they want it, especially so if the objective wasn’t freshly taken. I don’t see this part as an issue.

Regarding taking major objectives, I personally prefer the longer time it takes to get it. Not that I like manning siege, but because I do not think of it as practical taking it quickly considering that it is a major objective. It is more rewarding after taking it because it requires so much more planning and effort. Plus, it makes it more valuable to defend.

You’re thinking to narrowminded of this again. The arrowcarts themselves would not defend any structure but they would make it easier for any group to do so. Two arrowcarts would force any zerg to start using heals and if you use the bleed it would require them to use some condiremoval skills. If you then use the cripple just before your defending force goes out (this force never has to be more than a third of the attacking force) you will easily wipe most of them. That is how defending was done. It was easy. There was NO NEED for that to change.

You say it is not practical to quickly take a major objective but the reason that objectives were easily taken is because most people refused to defend. It’s not that defending was hard, they just weren’t doing it.

A well defended garrison with 500 supplies would require more supplies from the attacking force to take, pre-patch.

I would still like to hear what this patch fixed, what it helped that needed helping.

It did NOTHING to stop zergs, it helps zergs.
It did make it easier to defend, but it was already easy enough before if you knew what you were doing.
I still haven’t seen any of the supply attrition wars I hear so much about and I don’t think I will because this AC is all about the zerg.
It does not make for more action, instead ppl run away even more and the game has gotten more boring.
It has not given us epic siege battles, just some guys pressing 1 on trebs or arrowcarts, nothing epic about that.

I’ll repeat this one again: Why would defending need a buff if so many guilds have been doing it succesfully against overwhelming forces before?

Kabooky.8071:

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Heijincks.9267:

Aytrix.4059:

The fact that this has not been resolved is disheartening to say the least. This is absolutely terrible decision making on Anet’s part. How many more dedicated WvW players and possible paying customers have to leave before they get a clue?

I doubt Anet wasn’t able to anticipate what would happen. They have all the data and statistics. I don’t think they’re unable to foresee that shaking changes will negatively affect the playerbase (I mean Anet pulled this kind of thing several times already). Given that there is support for this decision, they’ll just wait until WvW is replaced by like players.

I’m sure they expected it to receive negative feedback, but that does not mean they effectively calculated all variables and changes are not needed. Looking over previous patch notes is a great indicator of how well some things were planned out.

Kaineng Center=>Arrowcart Center
Magumma=>Cart Mart
Yak’s Band=>Yak’s Knees

Caliban.3176:

I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Pot, meet kettle.

I dislike the changes for 2 reasons:

1. Arrow carts are the universal counter…they counter people, rams, catas, trebs even. they shoudl be anti-player but do ZERO dmg against rams and seige.
2. the WvWvW ranks are adding real power, I hate that. Its introducing pvp ranks and power assocaited with them. what next? seasonal increases in pvp gear?

Nerf the AC plz.The Problem is when ele cast meteor we have to stay still for 5 sec. 1 hit from 1ac is around 1300-1500ish.

If u want arrow cart to keep the damage as it is. make all job can cast when moving around ( Not even 1 skill have to be standing still when channeling). It’s better if u can make the casting keep going even when evading. ^^

@Mif

Why?
You say I should change my tactics to counter this new arrowcart. I know what that would do, it would make for a very boring game. I have looked at my tactics and see nothing wrong with them. (inb4 you call me a zerg or karmatrainer) I use my teammates to maximize our efficiency and we coordinate. We provide distactions and keep large forces occupied. We siege towers so we can get people to fight. We bait people with our siege. Those are some of our tactics. I see nothing wrong with them, we achieve a lot with them.

If however you were unable to defend a tower before the arrowcart patch, something that many small guilds had no problem with whatsoever, it does suggest that there might be a better way to do it.

Our tactics worked for what we want. Now we have to use tactics that go against what we want most of the time to get a tiny bit of fights (our goal). We prefer however that things go back to normal, I fail to see how there is a problem with our tactics then.

ryan.3915:

Fort Aspenwood – Fort Arrowwood
Blackgate – BlackCart

Stackgate should be renamed to Stackcart , it makes sense.

Caliban.3176:

Kabooky.8071:

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Is it just me, or have VoTF complained more vocally than anybody else about this change? I believe the OP has a very strong point, and to see a quality guild (effectively) telling him to L2P seems to tarnish their image somewhat in my mind.

hey, i dont usualy complain here but in this case i feel like i have to drop few words.

i like arrow cart incressed range thingy thats greate but with that super dmg buff u can place 4 arrow carts – in hills that will be able to hit both inner gates at same time- hills becam harder to teake then sm or any other keep in the game.
But what i wanned to say is ac dmg is so big that when i play with my friends we~15 men group we are unable to do anything exept fliping camps. before that super ac boost we could go get tower or try ninja keep now we get stoped by 2-3 guys wil arrowcarts each time. catapult not really, treb – teake at last 30 min to get tho fortyfied wall yet they still can keep repering it so it will teake even longer, and what we will do in that time? stand and watch the shots? before oponents had to put some man power and fight back to not loose tower or keep now its just trolling couse they dont event put an effort to fight back. U killed wvwvw for us with that patch.

i dont think a net really thought this patch throu, hope it wil be back to normal if not well TESO beta will be open soon

Svarty.8019:

Caliban.3176:

Kabooky.8071:

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Is it just me, or have VoTF complained more vocally than anybody else about this change? I believe the OP has a very strong point, and to see a quality guild (effectively) telling him to L2P seems to tarnish their image somewhat in my mind.

I was actually the person who made this thread but Isac made another a couple of seconds before me so when merged his became the OP, the 2nd post in this thread was the OP.

Svarty.8019:

Caliban.3176:

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Is it just me, or have VoTF complained more vocally than anybody else about this change? I believe the OP has a very strong point, and to see a quality guild (effectively) telling him to L2P seems to tarnish their image somewhat in my mind.

I have indeed ben a very vocal complainer. I agree that I might have been a bit harsh saying that he should look at his tactics. I’ve been told to l2play in this thread so many times that I’m starting to mirror it and that is not right.

It does not change the fact however that defending was not hard, it never has been, many guilds have attested to that and if someone did find it difficult they were probably not being very efficient. Defending against up to a force three times as large as yours has never been very hard.

Kabooky.8071:

Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.

P.S. I did not mention this the first time but how does one know who the vocal minority is and who the silent majority is? The only sample we have is this forum. It is not always a true representative and may be very skewed but it still is the only one. You can go back a couple of posts and see that in this thread there are far more people (unique posters, not actual number of posts) that are against the change.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Arrowcarts-merged/page/39#post1960435

Aneu.1748:

Svarty.8019:

Caliban.3176:

Kabooky.8071:

As a member of a small guild who does 99.9% wvw activites, we would like to thank Arena Net for giving us a reason to try and defend towers/keeps/forts. As previous DaoC players we appreciate what Epic wvw battles can be, and watching zergballs take keeps in under a minute is NOT it. Im sure there will be a vocal minority desperate for wvw exp who can only think of how they are inconvenienced by having to think, or use counter siege. But on behalf of the silent majority, I would like to say…. suck it up princess.
I would like to see the carts damage become immune on a keep door however as it seems silly that AC’s should take place of rams.

I’m very disappointed that a guild who claims to do so much WvW had trouble defending before as most guilds find it easy. It was very easy and if you really need these new arrowcarts to do it, I suggest you take a look at your tactics.

Is it just me, or have VoTF complained more vocally than anybody else about this change? I believe the OP has a very strong point, and to see a quality guild (effectively) telling him to L2P seems to tarnish their image somewhat in my mind.

I was actually the person who made this thread but Isac made another a couple of seconds before me so when merged his became the OP, the 2nd post in this thread was the OP.

A new thread just got merged with this one and the OP they were taking about is this one: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Arrowcarts-merged/page/43#post1976534

Theres two major issues with the new arrow-carts, and Anet shot themselves in the leg:

1) They indirectly buffed the side with more coverage( like this was needed ), because they have the advantage of more T3 structures which they now can fill with imba arrowcarts.

2) They encourage zerging even more since there’s no way a small roamer group can take a paper tower now with 2/3 arrowcarts in it.